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Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

ZelDan

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And yet he wasn't made a playable character until this game. Face it, the fans made him playable by being annoying. It worked.
I'm going to sneak into Sakurai's office and pester and annoy him until he adds Isaac

"Is Isaac playable yet?"

Sakurai: "No, he isn't"

"how about now?"

Sakurai: "Uh, no."

"How about now?"

Sakurai: *sigh* "no..."

several minutes later

"How about now?"

Sakurai: "OKAY FINE I'LL MAKE HIM PLAYABLE GEEZ!"
 

StormC

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And yet he wasn't made a playable character until this game. Face it, the fans made him playable by being annoying. It worked.
While that's true, Sakurai definitely understands the key role Ridley plays in the Metroid series, as he's emphasized several times over that he's the archenemy of Samus and even made a point during Smash 4 that downsizing Ridley "wouldn't be Ridley anymore." He's also appeared in a non-playable role in every Smash game until Ultimate, so it's clear that Sakurai has always viewed Ridley as an important character, he just couldn't crack the code on how to make him playable until now.
 

ChronoBound

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He's not critical. Ridley can be removed and you lose nothing. He's just really enjoyed by fans.
Ridley is the leader of the Space Pirates and important to the lore to the series (he was the one that orphaned Samus). Ridley has made more consistent appearances in the Metroid series than even Ganon has in the Zelda series.

And yet he wasn't made a playable character until this game. Face it, the fans made him playable by being annoying. It worked.
We do not know why Sakurai changed his mind on Ridley. It could very well be due to his ballot performance and the fact that after Smash 4 (especially a game that started development only a year after Smash 4) there was hardly any big name Nintendo characters left, so a character like Ridley needed to be re-evaluated. Ridley, K. Rool, Inkling, and Isabelle quite literally were the biggest Nintendo characters left not yet on the roster. Even Toad (another critical character) ended up being revamped to be more proactive in Peach (and Daisy's) moveset.

While that's true, Sakurai definitely understands the key role Ridley plays in the Metroid series, as he's emphasized several times over that he's the archenemy of Samus and even made a point during Smash 4 that downsizing Ridley "wouldn't be Ridley anymore." He's also appeared in a non-playable role in every Smash game until Ultimate, so it's clear that Sakurai has always viewed Ridley as an important character, he just couldn't crack the code on how to make him playable until now.
This is a very good response. It is integral to note that Ridley was among the few characters to even appear in Smash 64. He then had a scene in Melee's intro fighting Samus (and a very detailed trophy). Two boss fights in Brawl. And a stage that revolved around him (where he had attributes of a fighter).

I think Sakurai knew Ridley was integral but like you said could not figure out how to make him work as a fighter. I absolutely love Sakurai's idea of having Ridley hunched over (and giving him a taunt that allows him to stand upright to show how tall he really is).
 
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Organization XIII

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Ridley is the leader of the Space Pirates and important to the lore to the series (he was the one that orphaned Samus). Ridley has made more consistent appearances in the Metroid series than even Ganon has in the Zelda series.
I love Metroid. I've played every game and you could replace Ridley in every one and lose nothing. The only place Ridley has any significance is Other M and the manga. He's not critical he's just a really loved reoccurring boss.
 

StrawHatX

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While that's true, Sakurai definitely understands the key role Ridley plays in the Metroid series, as he's emphasized several times over that he's the archenemy of Samus and even made a point during Smash 4 that downsizing Ridley "wouldn't be Ridley anymore." He's also appeared in a non-playable role in every Smash game until Ultimate, so it's clear that Sakurai has always viewed Ridley as an important character, he just couldn't crack the code on how to make him playable until now.
I’ll never understand why downsizing Ridley was such a weird concept for Sakurai. Yes, he’s bigger in the Metroid games, but you can make him “playable” size for your fighting game and nobody would care. Olimar is like an inch tall in the Pikmin games and he was upsized.
 

NobleClamtasm

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I’ll never understand why downsizing Ridley was such a weird concept for Sakurai. Yes, he’s bigger in the Metroid games, but you can make him “playable” size for your fighting game and nobody would care. Olimar is like an inch tall in the Pikmin games and he was upsized.
Well to be honest, I laughed when I first saw babby-sized Ridley in Ultimate.
 

ZelDan

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I’ll never understand why downsizing Ridley was such a weird concept for Sakurai. Yes, he’s bigger in the Metroid games, but you can make him “playable” size for your fighting game and nobody would care. Olimar is like an inch tall in the Pikmin games and he was upsized.
Did Olimar's size add anything to his character though? With Ridley, him being big helped in making him more imposing (not the only thing that made him imposing of course, but the size probably helped a bit with it to some extent). Another thing is that with Ridley, we actually got to see how much bigger he was to Samus, in Metroid AND Smash Bros. while Plimar didn't really have any other characters to compare to.

I wouldn't really say Ridley's or Olimar's situations are similar.
 

ChronoBound

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I love Metroid. I've played every game and you could replace Ridley in every one and lose nothing. The only place Ridley has any significance is Other M and the manga. He's not critical he's just a really loved reoccurring boss.
Super Metroid: Kidnapped the baby Metroid that kickstarted Super Metroid.
Metroid Prime: It was Samus learning of Ridley's survival and Ridley flying to Tallon IV to be fully healed that caused her to land on Tallon IV.
Zero Mission: Ridley ordered the Pirate Mothership to Zebes (we literally see a cutscene of this).
Other M: Little Birdie caused much of the chaos on the Bottle Ship.

The games where his appearance was merely fanservice were Metroid Fusion and
Samus Returns
, and arguably Prime 3.
 
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Organization XIII

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Super Metroid: Kidnapped the baby Metroid that kickstarted Super Metroid.
Metroid Prime: It was Samus learning of Ridley's survival and Ridley flying to Tallon IV to be fully healed that caused her to land on Tallon IV.
Zero Mission: Ridley ordered the Pirate Mothership to Zebes (we literally see a cutscene of this).
Other M: Little Birdie caused much of the chaos on the Bottle Ship.

The games where his appearance was merely fanservice were Metroid Fusion and
Samus Returns
, and arguably Prime 3.
None of those are critical. You can replace Ridley with any generic enemy in those roles and the story stays the same. Except Other M where he is integral to the plot, which I mentioned
 

ChronoBound

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None of those are critical. You can replace Ridley with any generic enemy in those roles and the story stays the same. Except Other M where he is integral to the plot, which I mentioned
That makes absolutely no sense, especially given the context I gave. You might as well say you can get rid of Ganondorf or Bowser in a Zelda or Mario game and the story stays the same.

Ridley had the authority to move the Pirate Mothership to Zebes because he is the leader of the Space Pirates. Samus was adamant about going to Tallon IV because Ridley is again the Pirate leader (as well as the one who murdered her parents). It was Ridley stealing the baby Metroid that kickstarted Super Metroid.

Ridley is not a random boss. He is the Space Pirate leader. Here let Palutena give you a primer since you will not take my word for it:

 

Organization XIII

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Ridley is not a random boss. He is the Space Pirate leader. Here let Palutena give you a primer since you will not take my word for
I don't need to take your word for it because I've played the games myself. He appears then he disappears that's it. He's not critical he's just really fun to fight.
 

ChronoBound

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I don't need to take your word for it because I've played the games myself. He appears then he disappears that's it. He's not critical he's just really fun to fight.
You ignored everything I wrote. Literally what you said could apply to Ganon and Bowser as well. You might as well say Wolf is not important because any character could be the leader of the antagonist mercenary unit to Star Fox.
 

Organization XIII

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You ignored everything I wrote. Literally what you said could apply to Ganon and Bowser as well. You might as well say Wolf is not important because any character could be the leader of the antagonist mercenary unit to Star Fox.
In a lot of cases yeah. I'd argue against Ganondorf but most enemies in Nintendo games aren't critical because they don't focus on plot. Doesn't make them less iconic or bad just means if they were was a different history where they were replaced nothing would be lost.
 

TheSpaceKing12

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People who whine about people who are ungrateful are even annoying than people who are actually ungrateful in my eyes. A few of the Waluigi fans may have made me very upset with the community. To the point where I legit debated blocking Waluigi fans on sight. But they’ve never relentlessly gone after folks just for wanting one or two characters yet. Trying to appeal to emotion and convince them that their years of support is nearly a sin. I had to realize that 99.9% of people who want Waluigi , Isaac, Banjo, etc are very happy with what has come thus far. Basically no one among those last few hold outs is actively trying to crap on the game. But if you asked the “you’re ungrateful!” Part of the Community right now, they’d gleefully paint us as demons just for respectfully holding out for one of our last few favorites. Somehow as though the 5 losers who actually did take those former steps represent thousands and thousands of other people. That’s fair, right?

...you know...all this..even after Sakurai himself said it’s always great to dream about your favorite fighters.........

It has not been a fun day on twitter for me.
 
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ChronoBound

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In a lot of cases yeah. I'd argue against Ganondorf but most enemies in Nintendo games aren't critical because they don't focus on plot. Doesn't make them less iconic or bad just means if they were was a different history where they were replaced nothing would be lost.
That is pretty much just your opinion. To most people, Ridley, Bowser, K. Rool, King Dedede, Meta Knight, and Wolf are important to their respective franchises.

I think your parameters for an important villain are only if the game is story intensive, which unfortunately does not work for most Nintendo franchises.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Ridley is extremely important to the story and always has been. Of course, a few games don't put as much emphasis on him as others. But he's more than "just a boss fight". He's a part of what makes Samus who she is today. Those villains help shape the series with what they do. Even if they turned into good guys later down the line, they play major roles. And a lot of those still have story-driven bits(it's actually an issue that made Zelda games too linear for a while, hurting some of the gameplay and exploration at times when it got way too extreme, like with the DS games).

Likewise with how much the villains play a role in the Golden Sun games. They all matter to varying degrees. They shape who the heroes are and make them even more interesting. Isaac needs characters to play off of to get real characterization. Though the silent protagonist bits can hurt a little.
 

SuperSceptile15

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It is time we finally come to terms with the fact that Pokémon will always get a rep.
And that’s just plain not right.
I strongly disagree. Pokemon is THE biggest franchise in the world. Any new Pokemon that is added to Smash is guaranteed to become popular with fans simply because many Smash fans are also Pokemon fans. It deserves its representation. Why would they willingly pass up the opportunity to advertise such a huge IP just because a vocal minority deems it unfair?
 
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Cetus

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I just wanna say, while I'm not an avid Isaac fan. I have literally no idea what Golden Sun is, I do know how it feels to have a beloved franchise remain underrepresented and forgotten. If there's anything I can do to help out with this, I'll certainly try.
 

Jupiter Ivan

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I just wanna say, while I'm not an avid Isaac fan. I have literally no idea what Golden Sun is, I do know how it feels to have a beloved franchise remain underrepresented and forgotten. If there's anything I can do to help out with this, I'll certainly try.
The easiest way to help us right now is to just famialarize yourself with Golden Sun. Try out the game if you’ve got a WiiU lying around. If not, watch some let’s plays.

Or just take part in conversations with the GS fanbase. We may be small and trying to pick up the pieces after being dormant for far too long, but we are a kind bunch... when we’re not constantly being antagonized.

As for supporting our efforts for Isaac in Smash....

The best hope for Isaac in the future is to just let the smash thing go. We can always dream. But it’ll just be a dream as long as Golden Sun remains dormant everything leading up to this point has proven that.

I’ll always be hopeful that our boy makes it in. But having in Smash was never my primary goal. I just hoped it’d be the catalyst to bringing GS back...
 

jweb23

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I strongly disagree. Pokemon is THE biggest franchise in the world. Any new Pokemon that is added to Smash is guaranteed to become popular with fans simply because many Smash fans are also Pokemon fans. It deserves its representation. Why would they willingly pass up the opportunity to advertise such a huge IP just because a vocal minority deems it unfair?
I’m a huge Pokémon fan, literally if it wasn’t for Pokémon I highly doubt I would be a Nintendo fan as it was the only reason my parents bought me the handheld systems. However, at this point they have 10 playable characters and seriously don’t need anymore! If a new Pokémon gets added in the future games like we all know will happen then they should cut a current one unless Sakurai or a possible new person decides to continue the trend of bringing everyone back again.

If being an Assist Trophy is good enough to represent lesser franchises then new Pokémon simply being pokeball Pokémon should be good enough to represent/advertise the newer generations.

As much as I love the roster, I can’t pretend it’s not over saturated by 3 franchises, sadly Legend of Zelda not even being one of those 3. It actually shocks me that Mario and Pokémon have such a diverse case but LoZ has three Links and a guy trying to pretend he isn’t Captain Falcon.

Also...how did Dixie Kong get ignored again???

Yes I know this is our boy Isaac’s thread but since we’ve been voicing our criticisms I feel I might as well get the rest of mine out!
 

KoopaSaki

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Honestly I think there might be a new golden sun game in development possibly for the next year or later. I’m just hoping we don’t see a new Mario sports game at the next Nintendo direct so we can have more hope Camelot is developing one right now. And if a new golden sun game came for the switch, it could potentially bring in adult Isaac or Matthew into the roster as dlc.
 

GoodGrief741

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He didn't actually say she was chosen because of the ballot. He only said she scored high on it.

People came to an incorrect conclusion due to lack of communication, really. His wording is poor, but he didn't lie at all. It's a pure misunderstanding, really.

It feels like a white lie, but wasn't one either. I must've misread the meaning of your previous post, though. Sorry about that.
When it’s told to sell a product, a white lie is usually referred to as misleading marketing.

I strongly disagree. Pokemon is THE biggest franchise in the world. Any new Pokemon that is added to Smash is guaranteed to become popular with fans simply because many Smash fans are also Pokemon fans. It deserves its representation. Why would they willingly pass up the opportunity to advertise such a huge IP just because a vocal minority deems it unfair?
Because:
A. That is not true, not every Pokémon that joins Smash becomes popular.
B. Smash is a game, not an ad. I get it, they want to take advantage of corporate synergy, but too much executive meddling affects the vision of the product and is still not an excuse for making the wrong choices.
C. 10 Pokémon. It’s an embarrassment of riches. That’s 1/7th of all unique characters in history.
D. Squirtle, Ivysaur and Pichu are all back. Plus, characters like Pikachu and Mewtwo already advertise Pokémon well enough.
E. Sun/Moon is two years old. There’s no point in advertising it. They could have put someone like Eevee or Meowth or (gasp!) a Pokémon from the ballot to advertise Let’s Go.

Pokémon is the biggest franchise in the world. It doesn’t need advertising to this degree. As for whether it deserved it, it already had it. Give some to someone else.
 

Guynamednelson

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As well as being massively popular, there are still several mascot Pokemon missing, and two gens not represented. When it gets to the level of X-Men reps in MvC2, then you can talk about overrepresentation.
 

TempestSurge

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I’d be able to buy this...had it not been for what we saw in the latest direct. Isaac has whole new moves, being lift and pound, and they’re both accurately depicted. No other assists had this kinda of treatment, and heck, pound is from the second game, so the research had to be decently extensive. For that reason, I can’t buy that he just didnt know.
I mean moreso as far as the picture went with all of the connections we kept finding. Sakurai may have looked at it once and posted it to his Twitter, I doubt he made all the connections we did. Link is a silent protagonist like Isaac and they're in the order of their debuts by Smash games like the party system in Golden Sun etc.

I'm sure Sakurai did his research to get Isaac's moves right but I'm doubting Golden Sun was a game he played beyond research. For a main character of an unrepped franchise who's highly wanted and requested by fans, I wish Sakurai was representing Isaac by what makes him iconic in game universe and to fans, move is well known, and I mean it's Isaac, it's cool to see in gameplay either way, but Garet can use move as well. Just wish Isaac cycled through other abilities of his as well but until he's playable, likely not.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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When it’s told to sell a product, a white lie is usually referred to as misleading marketing
It was never told to sell a product either. Nor was it misleading to begin with. People assumed while nothing was ever said like that. It was clear from the start the ballot may be used to give a fighter as DLC. Again, that's pure assumptions on the fans and their own fault for misreading a very clear statement that blatantly said "maybe".

She scored high on the ballot. That was no white lie. Not once did his mislead anyone to believe she was chosen because of it. The marketing was pretty clear; "we'll consider turning the character into a fighter." People again, simply assumed. No fact was given she was specifically chosen as a ballot choice. Is it surprising she was chosen outside of it? Yes, but mostly cause we don't know why. However, it's not surprising she was Number 1 in Europe(she's a European character by design and it's actually an extreme popular game there. Though it's not nearly as popular elsewhere, it's still a great selling game. Not in the eyes of Sega, though. But they have a specific set of "required numbers" for sales).
 

Mogisthelioma

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And yet he wasn't made a playable character until this game. Face it, the fans made him playable by being annoying. It worked.
What are you talking about? Ridley was one of the top requests for a fighter. He was teased in the opening trailer for Melee and people thought he was in. Ridley fans have every reason to be disappointed for him missing out after that.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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What are you talking about? Ridley was one of the top requests for a fighter. He was teased in the opening trailer for Melee and people thought he was in. Ridley fans have every reason to be disappointed for him missing out after that.
Funny thing is he was never meant to be in Melee. Sakurai didn't even consider him till after Brawl was done. Same thing with Wolf and Goroh. Neither were noted as "considered" characters at that point. Wolf didn't get considered till Brawl's development. Goroh may never have been considered... sadly.
 

Mogisthelioma

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Funny thing is he was never meant to be in Melee. Sakurai didn't even consider him till after Brawl was done. Same thing with Wolf and Goroh. Neither were noted as "considered" characters at that point. Wolf didn't get considered till Brawl's development. Goroh may never have been considered... sadly.
Goroh is a bit of a disappointment. He would be a funny fighter. Especially since my brothers and I had fun watching him clean house whenever he spawned.
 

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Funny thing is he was never meant to be in Melee. Sakurai didn't even consider him till after Brawl was done. Same thing with Wolf and Goroh. Neither were noted as "considered" characters at that point. Wolf didn't get considered till Brawl's development. Goroh may never have been considered... sadly.
The Melee opening is what got people to really push for Ridley as playable. But it took a ton of poking and prodding to finally get Sakurai to do it three games and 17 years later.
 

Mogisthelioma

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The Melee opening is what got people to really push for Ridley as playable. But it took a ton of poking and prodding to finally get Sakurai to do it three games and 17 years later.
Define "poking and prodding." Sakurai never listens to people who reply to his tweets just to annoy him. He is never influenced by people who ****post or make annoying memes for characters (hence Waluigi). Ridley was added because he was a popular fighter, hence the ballot, which was supposed to be for Smash Ultimate anyway.
 

TempestSurge

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Define "poking and prodding." Sakurai never listens to people who reply to his tweets just to annoy him. He is never influenced by people who ****post or make annoying memes for characters (hence Waluigi). Ridley was added because he was a popular fighter, hence the ballot, which was supposed to be for Smash Ultimate anyway.
Sakurai was well aware of Ridley's popularity, even when he made him that stage boss in 4, he didn't need the ballot. Ridley's character portrayal held him back from becoming a fighter, he felt scaling Ridley wouldn't be a good representation of him in his mind.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2014/11/19/why-ridley-isnt-playable-in-smash-bros
 

JaidynReiman

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Define "poking and prodding." Sakurai never listens to people who reply to his tweets just to annoy him. He is never influenced by people who ****post or make annoying memes for characters (hence Waluigi). Ridley was added because he was a popular fighter, hence the ballot, which was supposed to be for Smash Ultimate anyway.
Continuing to ask for and push for Ridley despite Sakurai's insistence that he wasn't playable character material. Ridley fans even sent Nintendo a massive book detailing why Ridley should be playable in both Japanese and English.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Sakurai knew of Ridley's popularity and commented on it after Brawl was finished. He didn't however think of putting him in at that point. In 4, he made more considerations towards him as playable. Ridley's stage boss acting a lot like a regular playable character, for all we know, could've been him making an attempt but deciding to make him a boss instead due to balance issues. He succeeded in Ultimate in making him playable.

Anyway, a new article came up about his project plan. His statement is he never removed anyone he worked on. That means Isaac was not on the plan or was solely in consideration at best. https://www.gameinformer.com/interv...lant-spirits-and-20-years-of-super-smash-bros

I hope he explains some of the choices. Though I wouldn't be surprised if he waits till after DLC.
 

ChronoBound

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Continuing to ask for and push for Ridley despite Sakurai's insistence that he wasn't playable character material. Ridley fans even sent Nintendo a massive book detailing why Ridley should be playable in both Japanese and English.
The book thing was Geno back during pre-Brawl.
 

ChronoBound

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This whole book thing sounds interesting. Does anyone think we as golden sun fans should all collaborate on making one of our own to get Nintendo’s attention to revive golden sun?
Here is an interesting thought experiment. What if Golden Sun is brought back as a remake/retelling for the Nintendo 3DS? Would you buy the game? I know last time I brought it up there was a lot of whining that they did not want to buy anything for the dated 3DS. The thing is though is that prior to the September direct, Jonneh (someone that has leaked many things before) name dropped this hypothetical title alongside a bunch of other things that did get announced during the September direct (even something as specific as a Kirby's Epic Yarn port for the 3DS).
 

StrawHatX

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Did Olimar's size add anything to his character though? With Ridley, him being big helped in making him more imposing (not the only thing that made him imposing of course, but the size probably helped a bit with it to some extent). Another thing is that with Ridley, we actually got to see how much bigger he was to Samus, in Metroid AND Smash Bros. while Plimar didn't really have any other characters to compare to.

I wouldn't really say Ridley's or Olimar's situations are similar.
What? I’ve only played Pikmin once, but isn’t Olimar’s tiny size a major part of that game? You’re in a micro-world where you need the Pikmin’s help to move things around because they’re too big for Olimar.

I feel like changing Olimar’s size is a bigger deal than changing Ridley’s size. But then again I don’t think scaling characters for a fighting game matters anyways.
 

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And that’s just plain not right.
What’s just plain not right is the fact Meowth still is not a playable fighter in Smash.

20 years. 5 games. Still no playable Meowth.

Not even Team Rocket Meowth to promote Pokémon Let’s Go Pikachu/Eevee in Smash even though Masuda said they included Jessie, James, and Meowth to attract both older fans and younger fans who watch the anime (even if they haven’t played the games) from all over the world to Pokémon Let’s Go Pikachu/Eevee.

It seems to me that Sakurai is just adding non-Gen 1 Pokémon just because they are new (and temporarily relevant in the anime or movies at the time) and give Sakurai an opportunity to add something new to the series. Pichu’s self-injury mechanic. Lucario’s Aura mechanic. Greninja’s ninja archetype. Incineroar’s wrestler archetype.

I mean, he came up with something for Duck Hunt Dog and Piranha Plant. Surely Sakurai can come up with something for a team consisting of a cat, a snake, and a balloon. :052::023::109:
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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What’s just plain not right is the fact Meowth still is not a playable fighter in Smash.

20 years. 5 games. Still no playable Meowth.

Not even Team Rocket Meowth to promote Pokémon Let’s Go Pikachu/Eevee in Smash even though Masuda said they included Jessie, James, and Meowth to attract both older fans and younger fans who watch the anime (even if they haven’t played the games) from all over the world to Pokémon Let’s Go Pikachu/Eevee.

It seems to me that Sakurai is just adding non-Gen 1 Pokémon just because they are new (and temporarily relevant in the anime or movies at the time) and give Sakurai an opportunity to add something new to the series. Pichu’s self-injury mechanic. Lucario’s Aura mechanic. Greninja’s ninja archetype. Incineroar’s wrestler archetype.

I mean, he came up with something for Duck Hunt Dog and Piranha Plant. Surely Sakurai can come up with something for a team consisting of a cat, a snake, and a balloon. :052::023::109:
:ultmewtwo::ultsnake::ultjigglypuff: ...I'm going to put together a team of these 3 now. A Cat, Snake, and Balloon~ (Weird we don't have a snake Pokemon, though we have a reptile in Charizard, I guess?)

Joking aside, Meowth, along with Gengar, are the two biggest missing Gen 1 Pokemon of choice. They're the most well known left and fully promoted/pushed over and over in some way. I mean, I know there's Blastoise, but it didn't get in cause of balance issues, and at least we have Squirtle.
 

Guynamednelson

Smash Legend
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Joking aside, Meowth, along with Gengar, are the two biggest missing Gen 1 Pokemon of choice. They're the most well known left and fully promoted/pushed over and over in some way. I mean, I know there's Blastoise, but it didn't get in cause of balance issues, and at least we have Squirtle.
Are you not counting Eevee because its evolutions come from multiple generations?
 
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