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Sunrise Up Again! Isaac for Smash Ultimate DLC

chocolatejr9

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That's more like strategy than RPG even if it shared an engine with the GBA FEs.

Remember, we also thought that Nintendo would never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, choose a character of theirs that wasn't from Fire Emblem: Three Houses or Pokemon Sword and Shield. Even if you can go "well they're still switch reps", they were still considered too risky for a fanbase that really loves playing it safe.
A Strategy RPG is still an RPG, y'know...
 

Pinguino21v

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cough cough Euden from Dragalia Lost cough cough

Sorry, allergies...
A game that wasn't even launched in Europe? What a surprise!

Paper Mario, technically, as well Advance Wars. A traditional turn-based RPG? Not that I can think of.
I completely forgot I wanted paper Mario for a time!
Also Advance Wars is definitely not a RPG. It is a strategy game.
 

SPEN18

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in hindsight Isaac was always a longshot for Ultimate
I don't think you can really conclude this; we don't know it, but Isaac may have even been one of the last fighters to not make it. Given all the supporting GS content in Ultimate that wasn't there before (despite no new GS games since Smash 4), it is clear that Isaac did extremely well on the ballot (I can bring the poll numbers up, too, but people seem to not like it when I talk about them); thus, I think it unlikely that he was not considered at least to some extent.

Lets be honest, Isaac isn't exactly iconic or relevant
Regardless of your thoughts on the above, I'm done with this being pinned as the main reason for Isaac's exclusion.

This game has the Ice Climbers in it as a playable character. So Isaac is surely iconic and even relevant enough to be chosen as a playable character. Therefore, instead of continuing to beat the quite dead horse that is iconicness and relevancy, I would much rather blame the following things which have conspired against GS's inclusion:
  • "Everyone is Here";
  • ridiculous, nonsensical management of third party reps (in quantity and in quality);
  • Sakurai seemingly not having a particular affinity for the GS games.
 
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FlawedAI

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I completely forgot I wanted paper Mario for a time!
Also Advance Wars is definitely not a RPG. It is a strategy game.
Advance Wars is the same genre as Fire Emblem: Strategy RPG. Not a JRPG like Dragon Quest or Golden Sun, but an RPG nonetheless.
 

Guynamednelson

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  • "Everyone is Here";
  • ridiculous, nonsensical management of third party reps (in quantity and in quality);
  • Sakurai seemingly not having a particular affinity for the GS games.
Don't forget the remodeling of Melee/Brawl/3DS stages taking away resources they could've spent on a Golden Sun stage.
 

Staarih

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After the comments Sakurai made about the last Mii Costumes (them being popular requests, some players may be surprised to see them "playable"), I wonder if the Isaac costume is already considered as "playable" representation in Ultimate. Sakurai clearly sees the Mii Costumes as compensation of sorts and probably views them as better representation than most. The ones added base game may have been popular requests too (from the ballot for example).

I'm not too confident about Isaac making it in as the last DLC character, but overall Golden Sun really stepped it up from Brawl/Smash4 and there's definitely material now to build upon in the potential next Smash game.
 

Guynamednelson

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After the comments Sakurai made about the last Mii Costumes (them being popular requests, some players may be surprised to see them "playable"), I wonder if the Isaac costume is already considered as "playable" representation in Ultimate.
Base game compensations=/=permanent compensations for that game. We may have not gotten Spring Man and Rex but their games weren't locked out of being DLC just because of the content their games already had.

also daily reminder that sakurai said smash 6 might be in 2028
 

Staarih

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Base game compensations=/=permanent compensations for that game. We may have not gotten Spring Man and Rex but their games weren't locked out of being DLC just because of the content their games already had.
Yeah, fair enough, but for all intents and purposes, the base game compensations still appear to remain as permanent compensations either way haha, unless the last character breaks that. Color me surprised if it turns out to be Isaac, but I'm also just trying to find comfort in the fact that Sakurai seems to think of Mii Costumes as somewhat of playable representation unlike many of us here, and that maybe Isaac's costume is a result of fan requests.
 

GoodGrief741

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Advance Wars is the same genre as Fire Emblem: Strategy RPG. Not a JRPG like Dragon Quest or Golden Sun, but an RPG nonetheless.
Technically, it isn't. Fire Emblem gives its different units different stats and they can level up, that's what makes it an RPG. Compare that to Advance Wars where a unit's stats are defined by its class and HP. Hence why one is a strategy RPG and the other is simply turn-based strategy.

On the topic of Nintendo RPGs, aside from the aforementioned Mario RPGs there's several others that don't have a fighter. Ring Fit Adventure, Tomato Adventure, Fossil Fighter, the other two Project Rainfall games, Dragalia Lost, Magical Vacation/Starsign, Glory of Heracles, Soma Bringer... I'm sure there are others I'm missing. Golden Sun is more successful and high profile than the majority but it's far from the only one.
 

pupNapoleon

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I can only see Isaac being the last character if, unknown to us, Nintendo has a new (not a remake) Golden Sun planned, and well into development, with no chance of being cancelled.

Paper Mario, technically, as well Advance Wars. A traditional turn-based RPG? Not that I can think of.
I listed the Mario RPGs, and I agree with the user below you that Advance Wars is not an RPG.

Remember, we also thought that Nintendo would never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, choose a character of theirs that wasn't from Fire Emblem: Three Houses or Pokemon Sword and Shield. Even if you can go "well they're still switch reps", they were still considered too risky for a fanbase that really loves playing it safe.
I really don't consider a Fire Emblem character safe. Fans of the series are either into Smash or Not into Smash at this point; of all characters, I don't think more Fire Emblem's are drawing anyone new into the game...certainly less than just about any other choice.
Regardless of your thoughts on the above, I'm done with this being pinned as the main reason for Isaac's exclusion.

This game has the Ice Climbers in it as a playable character. So Isaac is surely iconic and even relevant enough to be chosen as a playable character. Therefore, instead of continuing to beat the quite dead horse that is iconicness and relevancy, I would much rather blame the following things which have conspired against GS's inclusion:
  • "Everyone is Here";
  • ridiculous, nonsensical management of third party reps (in quantity and in quality);
  • Sakurai seemingly not having a particular affinity for the GS games.
Golden Sun sold as many as the majority of the Fire Emblem games, until Awakening came about. Even its highing selling game, Three Houses, is only 3 million or so.

"Ridiculous nonsensical management" (lmao)... I'll agree with that on quality. I enjoy Terry and for what he stands, particularly for Sakurai... Hero makes sense...but my life would have been for the better if Byleth, Joker, Hero and Terry were replaced with other characters.

Advance Wars is the same genre as Fire Emblem: Strategy RPG. Not a JRPG like Dragon Quest or Golden Sun, but an RPG nonetheless.
A JRPG is just an RPG that comes from Japan. It isn't a different genre, or different in content in any way, than an RPG.

Technically, it isn't. Fire Emblem gives its different units different stats and they can level up, that's what makes it an RPG. Compare that to Advance Wars where a unit's stats are defined by its class and HP. Hence why one is a strategy RPG and the other is simply turn-based strategy.

On the topic of Nintendo RPGs, aside from the aforementioned Mario RPGs there's several others that don't have a fighter. Ring Fit Adventure, Tomato Adventure, Fossil Fighter, the other two Project Rainfall games, Dragalia Lost, Magical Vacation/Starsign, Glory of Heracles, Soma Bringer... I'm sure there are others I'm missing. Golden Sun is more successful and high profile than the majority but it's far from the only one.
I did mention Ring Fit Adventure in my initial post- and it just happens to be too new. Right now I think the most likely newcomer is Dragaux.
Of the others, I've only heard of Fossil Fighter and Dragalia Lost. Fair points, but absolutely quite low profile- in sales and impact on the industry. It does hurt to think Golden Sun is seen in that category, whereas Earthbound is not, and Fire Emblem/Xenoblade would likely be if not for the push Nintendo decided to give those series, in ways such as Smash.
 
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pupNapoleon

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I can only see Isaac being the last character if, unknown to us, Nintendo has a new (not a remake) Golden Sun planned, and well into development, with no chance of being cancelled.

Remember, we also thought that Nintendo would never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, choose a character of theirs that wasn't from Fire Emblem: Three Houses or Pokemon Sword and Shield. Even if you can go "well they're still switch reps", they were still considered too risky for a fanbase that really loves playing it safe.
I really don't consider a Fire Emblem character safe. Fans of the series are either into Smash or Not into Smash at this point; of all characters, I don't think more Fire Emblem's are drawing anyone new into the game...certainly less than just about any other choice.
Regardless of your thoughts on the above, I'm done with this being pinned as the main reason for Isaac's exclusion.

This game has the Ice Climbers in it as a playable character. So Isaac is surely iconic and even relevant enough to be chosen as a playable character. Therefore, instead of continuing to beat the quite dead horse that is iconicness and relevancy, I would much rather blame the following things which have conspired against GS's inclusion:
  • "Everyone is Here";
  • ridiculous, nonsensical management of third party reps (in quantity and in quality);
  • Sakurai seemingly not having a particular affinity for the GS games.
Golden Sun sold as many as the majority of the Fire Emblem games, until Awakening came about. Even its highing selling game, Three Houses, is only 3 million or so.

"Ridiculous nonsensical management" (lmao)... I'll agree with that on quality. I enjoy Terry and for what he stands, particularly for Sakurai... Hero makes sense...but my life would have been for the better if Byleth, Joker, Hero and Terry were replaced with other characters.

Advance Wars is the same genre as Fire Emblem: Strategy RPG. Not a JRPG like Dragon Quest or Golden Sun, but an RPG nonetheless.
A JRPG is just an RPG that comes from Japan. It isn't a different genre, or different in content in any way, than an RPG.

Technically, it isn't. Fire Emblem gives its different units different stats and they can level up, that's what makes it an RPG. Compare that to Advance Wars where a unit's stats are defined by its class and HP. Hence why one is a strategy RPG and the other is simply turn-based strategy.

On the topic of Nintendo RPGs, aside from the aforementioned Mario RPGs there's several others that don't have a fighter. Ring Fit Adventure, Tomato Adventure, Fossil Fighter, the other two Project Rainfall games, Dragalia Lost, Magical Vacation/Starsign, Glory of Heracles, Soma Bringer... I'm sure there are others I'm missing. Golden Sun is more successful and high profile than the majority but it's far from the only one.
I did mention Ring Fit Adventure in my initial post- and it just happens to be too new. Right now I think the most likely newcomer is Dragaux.
Of the others, I've only heard of Fossil Fighter and Dragalia Lost (and I think of your list, the only one of those that is a series/has more than one game is Fossil Fighters...though I only did minor research).
Fair points, but absolutely quite low profile- in sales and impact on the industry. It does hurt to think Golden Sun is seen in that category, whereas Earthbound is not, and Fire Emblem/Xenoblade would likely be if not for the push Nintendo decided to give those series, in ways such as Smash.
 

Guynamednelson

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I really don't consider a Fire Emblem character safe. Fans of the series are either into Smash or Not into Smash at this point; of all characters, I don't think more Fire Emblem's are drawing anyone new into the game...certainly less than just about any other choice.
It's a safe bet in that Nintendo constantly wants to promote the series, regardless of how many Smash fans like that. At least they don't have any new FE to promote this time.
This is the one I'd replace, mainly for the good of both the Smash and P5 fandoms.
 

ArkSPiTFirE

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Fire Emblem won't be at top of the pile right now. There isn't a new game or a new remake coming out yet, so they'll be digging into perhaps a popular character like Lyn, who's an Assist already. As much as I'd like to play as Lyn, that's really pushing it.

I will now proceed to ramble my thoughts about other first party picks...

Pokémon isn't as out of the running as I'd like it to be. The biggest argument against another right now is that we've already gotten a Pokémon rep in Ultimate, and we don't seem to see a trend of double dipping into series that got a newcomer in Ultimate. Meaning, we got Incineroar, and Byleth, so that's it from those series. The only exception is echo fighters, since we did get Chrom and Daisy, but I think they can be discounted due to how much easier they are to add.
Sword and Shield also got a spirit event in Pass 1, which is usually a bad sign for reps. But in Pokémon's case I can't see that being a prohibiting factor.

Mario got Piranha Plant as a new character. This could contribute to us not seeing Waluigi or Paper Mario as the last challenger, unless they just...decide to.

Zelda has it weird. You coulrd argue that Champion Link is the new Zelda rep in ultimate, he just took the place of Twilight Princess Link. He does have some changes to his moveset to suggest he's not just a carry over. But it does kinda leave the idea of another modern Zelda rep open, i.e. something from the BotW series of games. I think it's unlikely though, since I don't see them picking one of the four champions. There's still AoC fighters like Impa, but we're getting pretty recent for those.
Then all the other Zelda characters you'd expect are assist trophies.

Ring Fit and Astral Chain got very recent spirirt events, which are pretty damning to their chances.

If all the above is true, and we assume for a moment that Assist Trophies are not on the table, then it really narrows down who it could be. We're left with side characters of existing series that weren't repped in Ultimate (BWD, Porky) or characters from new series that aren't really considered that big for Nintendo and are overwhelmingly handheld or Japan only (Chorus kids, Andy, Ayumi).

I don't really consider any of those likely for something Nintendo is picking. BWD certainly has the most community support, but there's many reasons why I wouldn't consider him likely. Andy would awesome since AW is coming back, my problem with him is figuring out a moveset.

Now, I may be pulling these rules out of my ass but my thought process is that it's far more likely we're going to see a rule or pattern get broken before we get something that ticks all the boxes just because it's not already in Ultimate in some way. Not that it means much in the end.
 

pupNapoleon

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It's a safe bet in that Nintendo constantly wants to promote the series, regardless of how many Smash fans like that. At least they don't have any new FE to promote this time.
I'm not sure what your point is.
Yes, Nintendo would do better to promote all of their series well.
Yet some series absolutely get a lot more push than others, with choice series- without justifiable sales history- backed up.
They seem to use a triage system, wherein one group is going to succeed either way, so they get minor promotion, one group is seen as able to achieve well ("well" being extremely subjective), and one group is seen as filler, without much promotion.

Fire Emblem won't be at top of the pile right now. There isn't a new game or a new remake coming out yet, so they'll be digging into perhaps a popular character like Lyn, who's an Assist already. As much as I'd like to play as Lyn, that's really pushing it.
So... I'm not sure what you're saying. That still, Fire Emblem is heavily in the pile? I mean, given all the favortism it has unquestionably been given...and the fact that it has gotten by far, the most DLC characters of any franchise (with three, wherein the only other series to even get two is Final Fantasy).

Sword and Shield also got a spirit event in Pass 1, which is usually a bad sign for reps. But in Pokémon's case I can't see that being a prohibiting factor.
Ring Fit and Astral Chain got very recent spirirt events, which are pretty damning to their chances.
Ah, yes...like all of those other damning reasons that meant absolutely nothing :X

If all the above is true, and we assume for a moment that Assist Trophies are not on the table, then it really narrows down who it could be. We're left with side characters of existing series that weren't repped in Ultimate (BWD, Porky) or characters from new series that aren't really considered that big for Nintendo and are overwhelmingly handheld or Japan only (Chorus kids, Andy, Ayumi).
From Nintendo alone:
  • Dixie Kong
  • Captain Toad
  • Tom Nook
  • Balloon Fighter
  • Lip
  • Chibi Robo
  • Ray MK
  • Chorus Kids
  • Paper Mario
  • Excite Biker
  • Koopa Troopa
  • Lynel
  • Vaati
  • King Boo
  • DK Jr
  • Bandana Dee
  • Andy
  • Dragaux (I don't subscribe to the nonsense of what disqualifies a character, especially not a 'recent' spirit event)
  • That is legit just off the top of my head

I don't really consider any of those likely for something Nintendo is picking. BWD certainly has the most community support, but there's many reasons why I wouldn't consider him likely. Andy would awesome since AW is coming back, my problem with him is figuring out a moveset
Stage control traps, all over. There isn't a character who utilizes this fully with an entire arsenal. We have characters like Isabelle, Snake, and others who have a move that does it, but no more.

Now, I may be pulling these rules out of my ass but my thought process is that it's far more likely we're going to see a rule or pattern get broken before we get something that ticks all the boxes just because it's not already in Ultimate in some way. Not that it means much in the end.
Yes...though this seems contrary to that above.
 

ArkSPiTFirE

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I don't see how Fire Emblem is still heavily favoured at all, without dipping into assist trophies. Maybe one of the games that didn't really get represented, but the timing is questionable isn't it? If it's a favoured series because it helps promote the games, then there's nothing on the horizon to really go with that.

Also your list includes some first party titles that already got reps in Ultimate, like Mario, Animal Crossing and DK. So I didn't include those as part of my made-up rule. As I said at the bottom, there's nothing stopping Nintendo from picking one of those, it'll just break some kind of pattern. Stuff like Mach Rider is fair game though. I should've remembered that one.
 

Megadoomer

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I figure it's worth mentioning that the Games Done Quick run for Golden Sun: The Lost Age has started. It's about an hour and a half in right now, but it's estimated to be a roughly 6 hour run. (I'm not going to watch it because I want to play through these games at some point, and I don't want to be spoiled more than I already have been)

 

NessAtc.

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After the comments Sakurai made about the last Mii Costumes (them being popular requests, some players may be surprised to see them "playable"), I wonder if the Isaac costume is already considered as "playable" representation in Ultimate. Sakurai clearly sees the Mii Costumes as compensation of sorts and probably views them as better representation than most. The ones added base game may have been popular requests too (from the ballot for example).

I'm not too confident about Isaac making it in as the last DLC character, but overall Golden Sun really stepped it up from Brawl/Smash4 and there's definitely material now to build upon in the potential next Smash game.
Considering how Rex was considered in spite of his costume existing, this is definitely just not true.

As for FP11, I'm not expecting it, but at the same time, save for some legit random, fringe character, he's got one of the best chances period. There's been a lot of things that missed ultimate in pass 2 alone, such as ARMS and Xenoblade 2, and given Isaac's fairly significant spotlight in the november direct as well as within base game itself (he's the only legend spirit to not have a fighter rep his series), there is quite a lot to suggest he was high on the priority list, just not high enough since he'd have needed a stage and more stuff in base game. I could absolutely see him slide in right at the end, especially when Pyra and Mythra weren't being saved for the end implying that 11 is someone even smaller than them.
 
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SonicLink125

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Forgot to show this off. Got more coming of Isaac "Training" with Kazuya.


Considering how Rex was considered in spite of his costume existing, this is definitely just not true.

As for FP11, I'm not expecting it, but at the same time, save for some legit random, fringe character, he's got one of the best chances period. There's been a lot of things that missed ultimate in pass 2 alone, such as ARMS and Xenoblade 2, and given Isaac's fairly significant spotlight in the november direct as well as within base game itself (he's the only legend spirit to not have a fighter rep his series), there is quite a lot to suggest he was high on the priority list, just not high enough since he'd have needed a stage and more stuff in base game. I could absolutely see him slide in right at the end, especially when Pyra and Mythra weren't being saved for the end implying that 11 is someone even smaller than them.
Wait a minute?! Isaac's Legend Spirit is the only type to not have a Fighter Rep?!? Now THAT is interesting!

While we're on the subject, can I say how strange it is that after being completely absent in Pass 1, Motoi Sakuraba got rehired to compose for Pass 2 and all he's done is 2 remixes for games he's never worked on before (Minecraft & FF). Why has he been ultilized so little? It almost feels like there was no point for him to come back......UNLESS...!!! Well, who knows how hiring composers work, right? Regardless, it's still strange to me...
 

NessAtc.

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Actually, Dr. Kawashima shares it with Isaac, but I suspect Kawashima's legend class spirit is a bit more of a joke. I mean, he IS a real person; makes sense he'd be the strongest.
 

pupNapoleon

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I don't see how Fire Emblem is still heavily favoured at all, without dipping into assist trophies. Maybe one of the games that didn't really get represented, but the timing is questionable isn't it? If it's a favoured series because it helps promote the games, then there's nothing on the horizon to really go with that.

Also your list includes some first party titles that already got reps in Ultimate, like Mario, Animal Crossing and DK. So I didn't include those as part of my made-up rule. As I said at the bottom, there's nothing stopping Nintendo from picking one of those, it'll just break some kind of pattern. Stuff like Mach Rider is fair game though. I should've remembered that one.
I'm a bit confused- if this is for me.
Are you asking me how I can show that Fire Emblem being favored is just fact?

I don't understand the points about characters listed either... maybe this isn't to me?
Considering how Rex was considered in spite of his costume existing, this is definitely just not true.

As for FP11, I'm not expecting it, but at the same time, save for some legit random, fringe character, he's got one of the best chances period. There's been a lot of things that missed ultimate in pass 2 alone, such as ARMS and Xenoblade 2, and given Isaac's fairly significant spotlight in the november direct as well as within base game itself (he's the only legend spirit to not have a fighter rep his series), there is quite a lot to suggest he was high on the priority list, just not high enough since he'd have needed a stage and more stuff in base game. I could absolutely see him slide in right at the end, especially when Pyra and Mythra weren't being saved for the end implying that 11 is someone even smaller than them.
I admire your confidence in Isaac, which is something I just don't have at this point.
In my long feels, the only RPG characters I ever want added into Smash are Isaac and Sora.
Literally, no other. We are at overkill. It's at 6/12 current fighters from the DLC.
 
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SonicLink125

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Training with Kazuya is going well for Isaac so far. lol


I admire your confidence in Isaac, which is something I just don't have at this point.
In my long feels, the only RPG characters I ever want added into Smash are Isaac and Sora.
Literally, no other. We are at overkill. It's at 6/12 current fighters from the DLC.
I understand where you are coming from. Though, I do hope you still continue support for Isaac. If Ridley fans, K. Rool fans, Banjo fans can get their character finally in Smash after years of support, then we can do the same too. Isaac, fortunately, does have a lot going for him in general like being owned by Nintendo and the like. Until then, we keep the support going till he finally gets in.
 

pupNapoleon

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Training with Kazuya is going well for Isaac so far. lol



I understand where you are coming from. Though, I do hope you still continue support for Isaac. If Ridley fans, K. Rool fans, Banjo fans can get their character finally in Smash after years of support, then we can do the same too. Isaac, fortunately, does have a lot going for him in general like being owned by Nintendo and the like. Until then, we keep the support going till he finally gets in.
Oh, my support will never waiver. Not thinking the character will happen is not going to deter me from pushing for him. I'm generally quite optimistic, even for more characters while we still have this bundle- either in the future on this game, or a port of it a few years down.
 

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Oh snap! Isaac is getting Heihachi's attention! That's a really good sign! lol


Oh, my support will never waiver. Not thinking the character will happen is not going to deter me from pushing for him. I'm generally quite optimistic, even for more characters while we still have this bundle- either in the future on this game, or a port of it a few years down.
That's great to hear. No matter how things look, always keep supporting him till the end.

Though, it is interesting that they are not in a hurry to show off the last character. While I could absolutely be wrong on this, it just makes me think it's a 1st Party character even more.
 

pupNapoleon

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Oh snap! Isaac is getting Heihachi's attention! That's a really good sign! lol



That's great to hear. No matter how things look, always keep supporting him till the end.

Though, it is interesting that they are not in a hurry to show off the last character. While I could absolutely be wrong on this, it just makes me think it's a 1st Party character even more.
I'm almost certain it will indeed be a first party character, given it always has been.
I just think it will be from a new series/ new game on the Switch.
 

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I just think it will be from a new series/ new game on the Switch
I personally don't want half the pass to cater to fans of just one console, whether it be by adding another PS1 character or another Switch one, and I kind of think Nintendo would feel the same way, as Min Min could already attract casual Switch fans while Pythra attracta hardcore ones.
 

NessAtc.

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I'm almost certain it will indeed be a first party character, given it always has been.
I just think it will be from a new series/ new game on the Switch.
I mean, I'd be inclined to think the same way, if we weren't basically out of options as far as that goes. The pass structure was finalized late 2019, and based on the character selection was more or less planned 2017-2018, only shortly during/after pass 1. There's really nothing left as far as that goes.
 

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I personally don't want half the pass to cater to fans of just one console, whether it be by adding another PS1 character or another Switch one, and I kind of think Nintendo would feel the same way, as Min Min could already attract casual Switch fans while Pythra attracta hardcore ones.
Considering half of all DLC we have EVER gotten in smash is from a single genre, I don't think they really care about that type of division.
I also personally disagree with the idea that Kazuya is for PS1 fans... I don't even associate him with that era, personally.
I mean, I'd be inclined to think the same way, if we weren't basically out of options as far as that goes. The pass structure was finalized late 2019, and based on the character selection was more or less planned 2017-2018, only shortly during/after pass 1. There's really nothing left as far as that goes.
It really just depends on how much Sakurai knew, and how much Nintendo actually did make the call (both of which, despite some stated facts, have proven to be a bit questionable).

It also could be true that Pythra was the type of character we would normally have gotten at the end, but was moved up so as to not end on a first party.
 
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NessAtc.

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It really just depends on how much Sakurai knew, and how much Nintendo actually did make the call (both of which, despite some stated facts, have proven to be a bit questionable).

It also could be true that Pythra was the type of character we would normally have gotten at the end, but was moved up so as to not end on a first party.
Considering the DLC plan was finalized before Byleth was announced, I have very strong doubts that Aegis could have been moved because of that. It also doesn't make any sense from a business perspective to do that, either. Why would you have one of your bigger characters at the end, and have a smaller one at the middle, when there's still some room to sell the pass? The last character can't sell it, because after it comes out, there's no pass left, so it's nonsensical to do that.
 

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Considering the DLC plan was finalized before Byleth was announced, I have very strong doubts that Aegis could have been moved because of that. It also doesn't make any sense from a business perspective to do that, either. Why would you have one of your bigger characters at the end, and have a smaller one at the middle, when there's still some room to sell the pass? The last character can't sell it, because after it comes out, there's no pass left, so it's nonsensical to do that.
People have just as much option to buy the pass at the end as they do at the beginning.
We aren't operating with numbers, so basically the entire conversation is just opinion, but I would easily believe majority of the sales come from before even the first character of a pass is announced.
 
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NessAtc.

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People have just as much option to buy the pass at the end as they do at the beginning.
We aren't operating with numbers, so basically the entire conversation is just opinion, but I would easily believe majority of the sales come from before even the first character of a pass is announced.
The pass spiked with Steve and Sephiroth. We know that much. Plus it's not really about what actually happened, it's about structuring things to arrange an outcome, whether it actually happens or not.

You're far, far more likely to buy the pass when you know you've got Steve and Sephiroth, as well as the mystique of MORE on the way, than if you have 5 characters confirmed and only one to go. That's the reason they even do this structure to begin with, and Sakurai's disdain of it is why he tried in the november direct to dissuade people from buying it without knowing they want it; because he knows how this sort of thing can sucker people in.
 

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He was in million-selling PS1 games, how could he not be?
Just like how Mario isn't an NES character... they both just exist across generations.

The pass spiked with Steve and Sephiroth. We know that much. Plus it's not really about what actually happened, it's about structuring things to arrange an outcome, whether it actually happens or not.

You're far, far more likely to buy the pass when you know you've got Steve and Sephiroth, as well as the mystique of MORE on the way, than if you have 5 characters confirmed and only one to go. That's the reason they even do this structure to begin with, and Sakurai's disdain of it is why he tried in the november direct to dissuade people from buying it without knowing they want it; because he knows how this sort of thing can sucker people in.
I would also like to add- if the entire point of the pass was just to sell, then we wouldn't have gotten Byleth. I highly doubt that was a pass seller- even if you liked the character, I'll estimate that you already had bought the pass.
 
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NessAtc.

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Just like how Mario isn't an NES character... they both just exist across generations.


I would also like to add- if the entire point of the pass was just to sell, then we wouldn't have gotten Byleth. I highly doubt that was a pass seller- even if you liked the character, I'll estimate that you already had bought the pass.
The characters they have are the characters they have. They position them accordingly to best sell it. They were always doing Byleth, but putting them at the end was strategic in order to get people buying with Hero and stuff, and that's why Byleth was at the end.

While it's true that the entire point isn't simply "to sell", selling is still a priority.
 
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pupNapoleon

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The characters they have are the characters they have. They position them accordingly to best sell it. They were always doing Byleth, but putting them at the end was strategic in order to get people buying with Hero and stuff, and that's why Byleth was at the end.

While it's true that the entire point isn't simply "to sell", selling is still a priority.
I would also argue that if according to your points, it would stand to reason that the first character of each pass would be a knock out. I don't know if Joker or Min Min were, though at least Joker made it seem like, "Anyone is possible....as long as Sakurai reveres your game."
 

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I would also argue that if according to your points, it would stand to reason that the first character of each pass would be a knock out. I don't know if Joker or Min Min were, though at least Joker made it seem like, "Anyone is possible....as long as Sakurai reveres your game."
The reason why they aren't really knockouts to start is because stuff like Hero and Steve and Sephiroth took longer to get started. Steve in particular we know actually did have to be revised and stages had to be redesigned, so that's likely the reason why the "sellers" are closer to the middle rather than the beginning.

That also fits with Cloud being after Ryu, even though Cloud by all rights was far bigger.
 
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