Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hey, I haven't seen ROB showing up anywhere recently! There's a few retro characters that have no future or very little future, and certainly hadn't had any during their debut. Ice Climbers, for example.

Be that as it may, even if we assume that, there's still all that Golden Sun IP business and the (steadily) increasing likelihood of a remaster.

Guideline does not mean "every character follows it", it means it's a guideline he takes into account.

Really, don't be obtuse about it. Some characters are not in the position of retro as is, so they naturally aren't in a special position. Others are just third parties who have licensing as more important than "future use", since the reason they're chosen is because of separate unique merits. We already know that characters get chosen for a variety of reasons. Ice Climbers are Retro(literally, not just a case of "we think they might be").

You also try typing everything fully on mobile. XD

Also, R.O.B. showed up in Mario Kart DS right before Brawl, so it's a bad example. I'm aware you're trying to be silly about it, but the example just happens to not work, heh.

 

[Monue]

Guideline does not mean "every character follows it", it means it's a guideline he takes into account.

Really, don't be obtuse about it. Some characters are not in the position of retro as is, so they naturally aren't in a special position. Others are just third parties who have licensing as more important than "future use", since the reason they're chosen is because of separate unique merits. We already know that characters get chosen for a variety of reasons. Ice Climbers are Retro(literally, not just a case of "we think they might be").

You also try typing everything fully on mobile. XD

Also, R.O.B. showed up in Mario Kart DS right before Brawl, so it's a bad example. I'm aware you're trying to be silly about it, but the example just happens to not work, heh.

If future use is a consideration, not a hard rule, then what are we arguing about?

Isaac possibly, if the future use consideration holds true (for which we have no hard evidence it does, as neither Sakurai nor Nintendo have said that, since 4, it is still a rule they follow) under Nintendo's direction (as they currently have the majority say in these matters), has a slightly less chance of being included in the Fighter's Pass if we assume it's also true that Golden Sun isn't getting the remaster it almost seems certain it's getting.

Then yeah, sure, I can agree with that. I'm not being obtuse, I think this is frivolous and based on assumptions and if it's not a hard rule anyways then it hardly seems like an argument.

Again: Nintendo is just going to do what Nintendo wants to do.

That's the only rule worth following. All hail the Golden Rule!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If future use is a consideration, not a hard rule, then what are we arguing about?

Isaac possibly, if the future use consideration holds true (for which we have no hard evidence it does, as neither Sakurai nor Nintendo have said that, since 4, it is still a rule they follow) under Nintendo's direction (as they currently have the majority say in these matters), has a slightly less chance of being included in the Fighter's Pass if we assume it's also true that Golden Sun isn't getting the remaster it almost seems certain it's getting.

Then yeah, sure, I can agree with that. I'm not being obtuse, I think this is frivolous and based on assumptions and if it's not a hard rule anyways then it hardly seems like an argument.

Again: Nintendo is just going to do what Nintendo wants to do.

That's the only rule worth following. All hail the Golden Rule!

It's obvious why Isaac would be looked over in place of many others. He's not retro, 3rd party, nor has any upcoming games. He wasn't in a good position for base roster. That guideline is part of why it made sense, since it's applied to every single base roster(that's not an assumption either, that it's for every base roster. Sakurai actually explained it's how he chooses characters. It also would apply for most of Smash 4's DLC, except Corrin, as Nintendo suggested that).

With that, I won't discuss it any further. The bolded made it clear you're trying to turn it into "nothing else matters as an argument" now. That's definitely not something I'm willing to have a discussion on, cause it's not a good point.

 

[FlawedAI]

I mean, we know that Golden Sun is an IP that has "future use": there's literal legal proof of that. But Monue is right, if Nintendo wants a character, they'll get that character. If Nintendo decides Isaac is a good choice, he'll be added. If Nintendo wanted Geno, he would've gotten in. Sakurai's guidelines for deciding characters most likely had to be tweaked for Ultimate because a) the Ballot results apparently surprised Nintendo and b) he had less newcomers to work with given all the returning characters.

 

[Monue]

It's obvious why Isaac would be looked over in place of many others. He's not retro, 3rd party, nor has any upcoming games. He wasn't in a good position for base roster. That guideline is part of why it made sense, since it's applied to every single base roster(that's not an assumption either, that it's for every base roster. Sakurai actually explained it's how he chooses characters. It also would apply for most of Smash 4's DLC, except Corrin, as Nintendo suggested that).

With that, I won't discuss it any further. The bolded made it clear you're trying to turn it into "nothing else matters as an argument" now. That's definitely not something I'm willing to have a discussion on, cause it's not a good point.

The emphasis is there because I genuinely believe it's the only thing that really matters; I'm not saying there aren't other considerations, every company has its reasoning behind their decisions, I'm just saying none of those considerations are hard rules that Nintendo or Sakurai is completely unwilling to bend or break. They're based on things said years ago, and assumptions. We don't know what Nintendo is willing to do today, or not do, we don't work there - so the only rule that should matter to us is they're going to do what they want to do.

The fans have made a million assumptions in the past, many of them turned out wrong in the end, or only true for a game or two. There's no reason to make the same mistake. All we can do is hope that whatever their nebulous reasoning is, it will lead to an outcome we desire. We can all make arguments for or against anyone, based on anything, and try to find whatever logic we want to support our arguments, but it doesn't matter because whatever that reasoning is will either turn out to be true, or it won't.

So, for the record, I'm repeating myself for emphasis here - I'm not saying "future use" isn't a potential consideration, of course it is, but it neither confirms nor denies anything, and claiming that it's the reason, or one of the reasons, Isaac didn't get in base roster when there's no actual evidence to back that claim (or any other!) up is absurd. It's an assumption! We don't know, we weren't there! We have conjecture and years-old comments to go by, so why bother making the claim at all? Every board of directors has their reasoning for every decision a company makes, and is as capable of change as anyone else, and we as consumers can't claim to know what that reasoning is unless they tell us after the fact, so we shouldn't cling to dogmatic views and assumptions.

Just open your heart to the universe, maaaaan! Anything is possible - what is, is - and time will tell!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Until we know what GS will be used for, it's pretty irrelevant. Having the IP's copyright/trademarks updated means nothing. It could be used by the next console and not in time for Ultimate.

So it's not useful information. It's a decent guess something is coming out soon, but we have no way of knowing that. They've been renewing it for years on end. That doesn't mean the IP is being used at the right time for Nintendo to suggest Isaac. It means GS might see use later. It could be a new game a few years from now(which again, is too late). Monue is hardly right here.

The data is inconclusive to really treat it as "meaning much", honestly.

 

[Nazyrus]

Until we know what GS will be used for, it's pretty irrelevant. Having the IP's copyright/trademarks updated means nothing. It could be used by the next console and not in time for Ultimate.

So it's not useful information. It's a decent guess something is coming out soon, but we have no way of knowing that. They've been renewing it for years on end. That doesn't mean the IP is being used at the right time for Nintendo to suggest Isaac. It means GS might see use later. It could be a new game a few years from now(which again, is too late). Monue is hardly right here.

The data is inconclusive to really treat it as "meaning much", honestly.

This pretty much screams how ignorant you are about trademarks all together, you shouldn't talk like you know stuff when you clearly don't. I have explained hundreds of times with RESEARCH and FACTS with non-stop examples of every series getting a new game whenever a NEW trademark is registered, and the difference between NEW trademarks and renewals. I literally have proved this a thousand of times at this point, hell, it has proven itself a fact at this point without my help, all I have done is show people what they are lazy to research, because yes, it's a boring topic, and people rather decide to spill out bull**** about stuff they don't know a single thing about. Every single NEW trademark that Nintendo has been filling has been for new products, because that's what new trademarks are for, NEW products. It's not an "update" or anything like that. We have literally seen this happen with multiple trademarks specifically since 2018 as examples. The world ends with you, Mario ones, Zelda ones, Wrecking Crew, etc etc. The examples are endless of this being a FACT of truth. Don't act like it's not useful information when you clearly don't know what you're talking about, this is what leads to misinformation and why journalists are so ****ing clueless out there, becoming a cycle of misinformation feed on both ends, despite the actual facts and examples proving otherwise.

If you knew about trademarks and all that jazz, you wouldn't say something so dumb as thinking it would be a product for a next console many years from now or whatever. Trademarks have a life period at the moment of approval, and at that moment you're wasting time of the trademark's life period if you're not using it for anything, which means money wasted for the company. This is why trademarks are approved not farther than one year from the NEW product being released. You really need to research that stuff before saying anything and acting like you know anything at all, specially when I have spent many pages in this thread in all of 2020 giving examples and explanations with examples of how it freaking works and how it has always actually worked, lol.

There is nothing inconclusive of the trademark info we have. The only thing we don't know is when exactly are they gonna announce this next GS game between now and sometime in 2021, that is literally IT. It's a waiting game now, not a matter of "IF" it will happen, because like I have said, all NEW trademarks are meant for something, and every game is an example of it because they had a new trademark behind it appear one or two years prior and then approved not much farther from its announcement and marketing.

 

[WaddleMatt]

If I had a shot for every time someone called the new GS trademark a renewal I would be dead multiple times over.

 

[Pinguino21v]

Can you really imagine these people at the discussions table saying "we can't add him, we already added one Assist Trophy to be upgraded for DLC"?

Do you really think they would give a single **** about something as arbitrary as that?

It's not about "we can't add more than one AT as fighter", but more like, potentially, after picking 5 characters, "what if we are upgrading an AT too". There are 6 characters in this pass, I can see the last one being a very special one.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I am not going to acknowledge a post that swears at me. Please grow up and actually respond to me in a proper way.

That said, I'll just not participate anymore since it looks like the only response is to treat me like trash for getting something incorrect. I'm not interested in that kind of behavior. I'm only interested in a proper discussion. I'm also noticing this looks like I'm just going to get dogpiled on for not believing he's easily coming or that a new game/renewel/et. is coming super soon. That's silly. Now if you'd like to properly talk to me, I'm willing to continue. I'm not an expert on trademark law. It's an easy mistake to think it getting renewed again is an attempt to keep it from being used by someone else(as Disney has done something similar). So my bad.

However, I'll only respond if the details and rewritten respectively. I've already reported the post, that said. I am telling you this so you understand why I refuse to reply directly. If you don't like it, don't respond to me like that. If you don't want to converse with me in a respectful manner, that's fine. I just won't converse with you to begin with. That's only fair.

 

[TempestSurge]

“Future use” is actually a guideline he’s used for all the games, not just 4. Again, I was talking about why he wasn’t in the base roster and why he’s also not in a Banjo & Kazooie situation. They have very different context, especially as Sakurai chose Isaac as not playable while Nintendo chose B&K in different parts of the roster creation.

Golden Sun’s IP not being used is about the only thing hurting possible Isaac DLC, that said. Banjo-Kazooie is directly being used, just not for new games. It’s why the comparisons always fell flat. They’re definitely not in the same situation for DLC. Isaac being first party helps a lot, though.

I do agree with not every character being chosen in the same context. Some characters may be chosen because of popular requests from fans, others cause they have an upcoming game in the works, some because they bring something unique to the roster not done yet, or even because Sakurai has nostalgia for the character's series.

I also notice when lining up some of Sakurai's interviews when it comes to him going over the roster deciding process, it tends to change over time. Back in Smash 4 he mentioned conducting character popularity polls domestic and internationally and researching upcoming games while also mentioning how characters with no future are rarely chosen.

In base Ultimate he mentioned how he knew about the upcoming Pokemon game so left a spot open for Incineroar, seeming to continue the idea of characters with futures being chosen. Then when the first fighter pass happens and we get Hero, Banjo, and Terry he mentions how these characters all appeared 20 to 30 years ago and says how he wants to include a wide breadth of characters.

Of course given the characters listed one could say well that's the third party criteria and he judges the first party characters on whether they have a future. Which would then be our assumption since Sakurai never comes out one way or another to state certain roster criteria applies to 1st party or 3rd party.

Even on that note it goes back to Sakurai taking a bit of a backseat for DLC roster decisions as when he talks about Byleth he mentions how his preferences don't play a role and that Nintendo has a larger say in the decision. Surprisingly in that interview he even says he has no idea what Nintendo's future release plans are and just goes along with what they decide. So unlike in base where he had that knowledge, he couldn't even begin to pick Isaac or anyone else based on an upcoming game in the works if Nintendo doesn't have him in the loop but as mentioned it seems like his role is mainly to see if he can make a character for who Nintendo chooses.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I am not going to acknowledge a post that swears at me. Please grow up and actually respond to me in a proper way.

That said, I'll just not participate anymore since it looks like the only response is to treat me like trash for getting something incorrect. I'm not interested in that kind of behavior. I'm only interested in a proper discussion. I'm also noticing this looks like I'm just going to get dogpiled on for not believing he's easily coming or that a new game/renewel/et. is coming super soon. That's silly. Now if you'd like to properly talk to me, I'm willing to continue. I'm not an expert on trademark law. It's an easy mistake to think it getting renewed again is an attempt to keep it from being used by someone else(as Disney has done something similar). So my bad.

However, I'll only respond if the details and rewritten respectively. I've already reported the post, that said. I am telling you this so you understand why I refuse to reply directly. If you don't like it, don't respond to me like that. If you don't want to converse with me in a respectful manner, that's fine. I just won't converse with you to begin with. That's only fair.

Well, I don't fully understand it myself (copyright makes my head hurt), but apparently the difference between this and what Nintendo normally does is that this is a brand new trademark. Theoretically, this means Nintendo is planning SOMETHING for Golden Sun. Likely a game, but for all we know, that theme park is getting a GS-themed area. Though keep in mind, we haven't heard ANYTHING from Camelot since Aces, so who knows what's going on with them...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I do agree with not every character being chosen in the same context. Some characters may be chosen because of popular requests from fans, others cause they have an upcoming game in the works, some because they bring something unique to the roster not done yet, or even because Sakurai has nostalgia for the character's series.

I also notice when lining up some of Sakurai's interviews when it comes to him going over the roster deciding process, it tends to change over time. Back in Smash 4 he mentioned conducting character popularity polls domestic and internationally and researching upcoming games while also mentioning how characters with no future are rarely chosen.

In base Ultimate he mentioned how he knew about the upcoming Pokemon game so left a spot open for Incineroar, seeming to continue the idea of characters with futures being chosen. Then when the first fighter pass happens and we get Hero, Banjo, and Terry he mentions how these characters all appeared 20 to 30 years ago and says how he wants to include a wide breadth of characters.

Of course given the characters listed one could say well that's the third party criteria and he judges the first party characters on whether they have a future. Which would then be our assumption since Sakurai never comes out one way or another to state certain roster criteria applies to 1st party or 3rd party.

Even on that note it goes back to Sakurai taking a bit of a backseat for DLC roster decisions as when he talks about Byleth he mentions how his preferences don't play a role and that Nintendo has a larger say in the decision. Surprisingly in that interview he even says he has no idea what Nintendo's future release plans are and just goes along with what they decide. So unlike in base where he had that knowledge, he couldn't even begin to pick Isaac or anyone else based on an upcoming game in the works if Nintendo doesn't have him in the loop but as mentioned it seems like his role is mainly to see if he can make a character for who Nintendo chooses.

Do note he still makes it clear either way "I choose who to use." He's unlikely to say no.

Also, I feel it's best I leave the conversations for a while. I'm getting hounded by a ridiculous amount of alerts(and some posts are just plain rude) so I need a break.

I don't think the 3rd parties are judged remotely on the "future" thing either way. But it does look like he isn't paying attention to that for DLC either way, but he doesn't know the future use part as is. So I see what you mean with Isaac. Whether Nintendo chooses him or not is another story. Though like I am saying below, thank you for explaining this properly.

Well, I don't fully understand it myself (copyright makes my head hurt), but apparently the difference between this and what Nintendo normally does is that this is a brand new trademark. Theoretically, this means Nintendo is planning SOMETHING for Golden Sun. Likely a game, but for all we know, that theme park is getting a GS-themed area. Though keep in mind, we haven't heard ANYTHING from Camelot since Aces, so who knows what's going on with them...

Thank you for explaining it properly. I vastly appreciate that. Especially the respectful nature here.

That makes more sense.

I don't think it means it's remotely coming within this year, as games take a while to make.

Though as I said, I'd like to just take a break from the conversation right now from everyone, please. It's a bit too busy now and I can't participate constantly if I'm getting this many alerts at once.

 

[RoboFist]

Hey.

So.

Aside from the Banjo board, I've never posted on a character-specific thread before. I had my own personal wishlist and mostly kept it to myself until they were revealed (or deconfirmed). So I don't know what the etiquette is here, but I just wanted to share this personal epiphany I had today:

Isaac really did get screwed over.

I have no clue how I came to this conclusion today. I never once opposed Isaac joining the roster, but I always prioritized characters like Banjo, Simon, Amaterasu, Shantae, Midna, and Lyn before him. Maybe because I thought he was a perfectly obvious choice for base game?

When Byleth was announced and The Great Salt Event happened over the over-representation of Fire Emblem, I started thinking back to the Brawl days and how Lyn - the lead character of the first English FE game and basically the western ambassador for the series alongside Marth and Roy - was the obvious choice for Brawl's FE rep. She was too important to be overlooked, right?

And Ike was picked instead, with Lyn being an Assist Trophy. (I've never once had a problem with ATs, but I always found it weird how significant protagonists like Lyn could be summoned the same way mooks or side characters could)

And now, Fire Emblem is an established franchise with an ever-changing cast of characters. Lyn was only the protagonist of one game, back in the GBA days. As popular as she remains, her time for being playable has passed.

And it sucks.

That train of thought led me back to Isaac, a main protagonist from a well-received first-party RPG franchise that otherwise has practically zero representation in Smash. How unique of a moveset he could have, how well his look could've translated to the game, and how he would be a no-brainer if his game released during the Wii era.

The fact that Corrin, Rosalina, Shulk, and even Min-Min were able to secure a seat just because their games released at the right time is a hard pill to swallow for those of us who grew up with some killer GBA games. It's frustrating knowing that the timelines just didn't match up, so that's that.

I don't know what this rant was for Haha. Or even if I'll get blasted out of here for being some newbie dragging everyone down. I guess I just wanted to pop in and express my condolences and understanding. Smash Ultimate is still a borderline impossible feat of video gaming that should be celebrated for what it's accomplished, but man...from a Lyn fan to a bunch of Isaac fans, I get you.

Fingers crossed tightly for that rerelease/remaster/remake you're all talking about. Golden Sun was a blast and I'd do grossly illegal things to revisit that world.

 

[Monue]

those of us who grew up with some killer GBA games

It really is a tragedy how ignored the GBA era has been by Nintendo. It had a lot of fantastic games, like Fire Emblem and Golden Sun, which both happen to be two of my all-time favorites. It helped that I had huge crushes on Roy, Isaac, and Eliwood as a kid.

But I feel you, Lyn would have been a great addition alongside Isaac to represent that era!

 

[ZelDan]

Man, Decide to stop in here and see things got a bit heated.

I'm not an expert on trademark stuff myself, so I can't really contribute. All I'm going to say is we should probably avoid calling others idiots or avoid insulting others when arguing or discussing stuff. Doesn't really add anything to a discussion and it's not a good look.

 

[FlawedAI]

I am not going to acknowledge a post that swears at me. Please grow up and actually respond to me in a proper way.

That said, I'll just not participate anymore since it looks like the only response is to treat me like trash for getting something incorrect. I'm not interested in that kind of behavior. I'm only interested in a proper discussion. I'm also noticing this looks like I'm just going to get dogpiled on for not believing he's easily coming or that a new game/renewel/et. is coming super soon. That's silly. Now if you'd like to properly talk to me, I'm willing to continue. I'm not an expert on trademark law. It's an easy mistake to think it getting renewed again is an attempt to keep it from being used by someone else(as Disney has done something similar). So my bad.

However, I'll only respond if the details and rewritten respectively. I've already reported the post, that said. I am telling you this so you understand why I refuse to reply directly. If you don't like it, don't respond to me like that. If you don't want to converse with me in a respectful manner, that's fine. I just won't converse with you to begin with. That's only fair.

I agree that NaZ's post was excessively aggressive. In his defense, he has, quite literally, explained this hundreds of times. However, I will fill you in on the details because I happen to be knowledgable about the trademark situation (though NaZ knows more than me).

Basically, a brand new trademark was filed in August 2018 that read "Golden Sun" in English. This was not a renewal of the original trademark, which was due for renewal in 2021, nor was it a renewal of the trademark for Dark Dawn (which was renewed this year, I think). This was a brand new trademark, with new categories (which basically detail what the trademark is going to be used for), and notably didn't apply to any Golden Sun game (as the first two are covered by the original trademark and Dark Dawn has its own trademark as well).

This trademark gained plenty of traction at the time (Golden Sun was naturally trending on Twitter after the trademark was discovered) and many took it to believe that Isaac was joining Smash. We know now that this wasn't the case, but this was also before lots of research into copyright law that led to the conclusions we've come to. This is combination with the infamous "Rathalos Tweet" (a tweet by Sakurai that showed Rathalos facing Link, Marth, and Shulk at an angle that was suspiciously reminiscent of Golden Sun) got everybody's hopes up. We know now that Isaac wasn't meant for the base game, but Smash is irrelevant to the trademark.

At the same time, three other games got new trademarks - Mario Sluggers, Wrecking Crew, and Rhythm Heaven. The trademark for Wrecking Crew turned out to be for a rerelease of VS. Wrecking Crew on the Switch. Mario Sluggers and Rhythm Heaven are absent, as is Golden Sun (unless RH got a game recently that I missed).

What we do know is that this trademark is confirmation of something happening with the Golden Sun brand. It is not confirmation of GBA Nintendo Switch Online, as some speculate, nor is it confirmation of a rerelease of the original games - those are still protected under the original trademark. This trademark means, for a fact, that something new with the Golden Sun brand is coming. We know this because some countries (the one I remember specifically is New Zealand but it applies for others as well) require something called "Proof of Use", that is, proof provided by the company registering the trademark that it will be used in the near future. That means Nintendo was required to demonstrate a new product featuring Golden Sun to these trademark registration organizations. They needed to do this in order to get the trademark approved.

Speaking of approved, the trademark was actually refused multiple times - but Nintendo extended it in order to get the coverage. They requested extensions to the deadline to provide proof to make sure that they got this covered. Nintendo of Japan notably doesn't waste money on trademarks they don't need to (recently the trademark for Custom Robo lapsed) but they extended this deadline multiple times to make sure they got this covered.

In addition, one of the most important pieces of evidence we have (after the Proof of Use) is that this new trademark was registered in countries the original games never released in, like Korea and (I think) Vietnam. If this was a simple renewal of the original trademark, there'd be no need to get it registered in these countries.

Last but not least, a trademark almost exactly like this one was registered in either 2008 or 2009 (forgive me, I can't quite remember), which is right before Dark Dawn was announced and released. That trademark was a simple registration of "Golden Sun" with no subtitle, just like the one registered in 2018.

So yes, this trademark means the world to Golden Sun fans, because it's literally legal proof that Golden Sun is returning.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I agree that NaZ's post was excessively aggressive. In his defense, he has, quite literally, explained this hundreds of times. However, I will fill you in on the details because I happen to be knowledgable about the trademark situation (though NaZ knows more than me).

Basically, a brand new trademark was filed in August 2018 that read "Golden Sun" in English. This was not a renewal of the original trademark, which was due for renewal in 2021, nor was it a renewal of the trademark for Dark Dawn (which was renewed this year, I think). This was a brand new trademark, with new categories (which basically detail what the trademark is going to be used for), and notably didn't apply to any Golden Sun game (as the first two are covered by the original trademark and Dark Dawn has its own trademark as well).

This trademark gained plenty of traction at the time (Golden Sun was naturally trending on Twitter after the trademark was discovered) and many took it to believe that Isaac was joining Smash. We know now that this wasn't the case, but this was also before lots of research into copyright law that led to the conclusions we've come to. This is combination with the infamous "Rathalos Tweet" (a tweet by Sakurai that showed Rathalos facing Link, Marth, and Shulk at an angle that was suspiciously reminiscent of Golden Sun) got everybody's hopes up. We know now that Isaac wasn't meant for the base game, but Smash is irrelevant to the trademark.

At the same time, three other games got new trademarks - Mario Sluggers, Wrecking Crew, and Rhythm Heaven. The trademark for Wrecking Crew turned out to be for a rerelease of VS. Wrecking Crew on the Switch. Mario Sluggers and Rhythm Heaven are absent, as is Golden Sun (unless RH got a game recently that I missed).

What we do know is that this trademark is confirmation of something happening with the Golden Sun brand. It is not confirmation of GBA Nintendo Switch Online, as some speculate, nor is it confirmation of a rerelease of the original games - those are still protected under the original trademark. This trademark means, for a fact, that something new with the Golden Sun brand is coming. We know this because some countries (the one I remember specifically is New Zealand but it applies for others as well) require something called "Proof of Use", that is, proof provided by the company registering the trademark that it will be used in the near future. That means Nintendo was required to demonstrate a new product featuring Golden Sun to these trademark registration organizations. They needed to do this in order to get the trademark approved.

Speaking of approved, the trademark was actually refused multiple times - but Nintendo extended it in order to get the coverage. They requested extensions to the deadline to provide proof to make sure that they got this covered. Nintendo of Japan notably doesn't waste money on trademarks they don't need to (recently the trademark for Custom Robo lapsed) but they extended this deadline multiple times to make sure they got this covered.

In addition, one of the most important pieces of evidence we have (after the Proof of Use) is that this new trademark was registered in countries the original games never released in, like Korea and (I think) Vietnam. If this was a simple renewal of the original trademark, there'd be no need to get it registered in these countries.

Last but not least, a trademark almost exactly like this one was registered in either 2008 or 2009 (forgive me, I can't quite remember), which is right before Dark Dawn was announced and released. That trademark was a simple registration of "Golden Sun" with no subtitle, just like the one registered in 2018.

So yes, this trademark means the world to Golden Sun fans, because it's literally legal proof that Golden Sun is returning.

I got filled in enough earlier. But as I said, I'm trying to not participate for now cause too many alerts make things too busy.

I already reported his post, so don't worry about that. There was just no excuse for that kind of response anyway. Your points are important, but the presentation of them is even more important. I'd rather talk to someone who is polite and wrong than someone who is rude and right, if you will.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying in a respective manner.

 

[SPEN18]

oops
I guess I resurfaced some old arguments; didn't mean to get things heated. Popular characters like K. Rool, Ridley, and Banjo can be chosen without potential for future use. Hence I was trying to piece together an argument that those aforementioned characters would've had a high chance of inclusion without considering potential for future use.

I also did not make any outright claims about placement of characters on the ballot or whether or not K. Rool/Banjo will reappear (in a significant way) on Nintendo consoles; I just speculated. We've gone over Ridley before, so I'm not going to go further into that right now.

The characters in this pass have shown that the potential for future Nintendo releases is not a disqualifying factor. And perhaps you can argue that it's different for third parties, but I don't see why it would or should be. Third parties are often bigger cash cows in DLC, so it is easier to ignore the lack of a "Nintendo future," but if there was an "irrelevant" first party character that could make similar dollars, I don't see why that character wouldn't be considered for inclusion. It just so happens that there are currently less first party characters that, in Nintendo's view, would make that kind of money. Third parties bypassing relevancy issues is a pattern but it does not constitute a rule precluding first parties from also getting around these same issues. As others have said, it just requires the right factors lining up at the right time.

With regard to Isaac, specifically: he has a chance regardless of any other ATs getting chosen, and regardless of whether or not a new GS is currently in the works (although a new GS does still seem to have good chances), based on his merits as a popular first-party character with a unique moveset potential.

 

[NessAtc.]

I am not going to acknowledge a post that swears at me. Please grow up and actually respond to me in a proper way.

That said, I'll just not participate anymore since it looks like the only response is to treat me like trash for getting something incorrect. I'm not interested in that kind of behavior. I'm only interested in a proper discussion. I'm also noticing this looks like I'm just going to get dogpiled on for not believing he's easily coming or that a new game/renewel/et. is coming super soon. That's silly. Now if you'd like to properly talk to me, I'm willing to continue. I'm not an expert on trademark law. It's an easy mistake to think it getting renewed again is an attempt to keep it from being used by someone else(as Disney has done something similar). So my bad.

However, I'll only respond if the details and rewritten respectively. I've already reported the post, that said. I am telling you this so you understand why I refuse to reply directly. If you don't like it, don't respond to me like that. If you don't want to converse with me in a respectful manner, that's fine. I just won't converse with you to begin with. That's only fair.

You're thinking copyright. Not trademark. You actually CANNOT apply and successfully instate a new trademark if you are unable to prove that it is being used in the future. In every country that uses them. The whole point of trademarks is brand protection, NOT IP protection. IP Protection is copyright laws, and thanks to Disney you only need to renew copyrights whenever someone dies.

The Eternal Darkness renewal that the people who say "trademarks don't matter" keep bringing up was expressly denied reinstatement, because they could not prove that the brand was going to continue to be used commercially. Golden Sun's, on the other hand, has been instated in multiple countries, several of which didn't even sell the series beforehand.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You're thinking copyright. Not trademark. You actually CANNOT apply and successfully instate a new trademark if you are unable to prove that it is being used in the future. In every country that uses them. The whole point of trademarks is brand protection, NOT IP protection. IP Protection is copyright laws, and thanks to Disney you only need to renew copyrights whenever someone dies.

The Eternal Darkness renewal that the people who say "trademarks don't matter" keep bringing up was expressly denied reinstatement, because they could not prove that the brand was going to continue to be used commercially. Golden Sun's, on the other hand, has been instated in multiple countries, several of which didn't even sell the series beforehand.

Oh, that was it. Honestly, it's always hard to remember which is which.

I really need to since I'm working on my own games, heh.

Things do get confusing, yeah, if you don't do a huge amount of research. >.<;

 

[extremeturkey]

Until we know what GS will be used for, it's pretty irrelevant. Having the IP's copyright/trademarks updated means nothing. It could be used by the next console and not in time for Ultimate.

So it's not useful information. It's a decent guess something is coming out soon, but we have no way of knowing that. They've been renewing it for years on end. That doesn't mean the IP is being used at the right time for Nintendo to suggest Isaac. It means GS might see use later. It could be a new game a few years from now(which again, is too late). Monue is hardly right here.

The data is inconclusive to really treat it as "meaning much", honestly.

some people in this thread get weirdly hostile when you say anything that contradicts what they want to happen. Sadly it's very stifling for golden sun fans who support the franchise but who aren't optimistic about its future. makes this place unwelcoming

But you're right to doubt. Just ignore the heat. some people forget we're talking about video games, not human rights. it's ok to just disagree on the internet

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

some people in this thread get weirdly hostile when you say anything that contradicts what they want to happen. Sadly it's very stifling for golden sun fans who support the franchise but who aren't optimistic about its future. makes this place unwelcoming

But you're right to doubt. Just ignore the heat. some people forget we're talking about video games, not human rights. it's ok to just disagree on the internet

To be honest I'd rather just move on right now.

You are right there's no need for hostility, though.

I was incorrect on how it worked, and a few pointed out respectively the issues with what I said. It was only one hostile person, and as I noted, I reported the problematic post. Any who get hostile I just usually put on Ignore at times since it's clear there's no fruitful discussion by that point.

I totally want Isaac in, but yeah, I doubt it. My reasonings are definitely not as solid as I understood, though. At least for DLC. Base roster is one thing(which I figured he wasn't in a good spot either), and lordy did it suck to see the AT so late instead of ripping off the bandage early. I'm just glad I at least got a decent Mii costume to let me somewhat use him. I happened to pick it up in the shop last time I played~ Though it helps that some of the Mii Fighters have a few elemental moves. Speaking of, I gotta pick up more costumes. I wish making money was easier in-game. Classic is okay, till the extremely long credits that you have to button mash come along. Oyyyyy.

I like elemental stuff. It's kind of a thing you tend to like if you're a Quest 64 fan as well, so...~

 

[extremeturkey]

Miis are just so boring IMO that I don't even think I'd use them if they dressed up as characters I wanted in the game. It might resemble someone I want, but why would I play as that thing when there are so many fighters in the game who are so much more fun to use than a Mii

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Miis are just so boring IMO that I don't even think I'd use them if they dressed up as characters I wanted in the game. It might resemble someone I want, but why would I play as that thing when there are so many fighters in the game who are so much more fun to use than a Mii

Honestly I find many of the movesets fun.

Especially as they're a much more defined moveset, and three of them to boot. I wouldn't have an issue with a Mii Mage or an actual Mii playable character(based upon Mii sports, etc.)

I get ya, though. They aren't for everyone.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Honestly Lyn is like the one Fire Emblem rep I wouldn't mind all that much and would really dig tbh

When it comes to the trademark stuff yeah I can see why people can get confused. More of us are understanding the whole deal with the GS ones and why they help so much as time goes on which is good and we've had great explanations of what the deal with them are by some of our folk here too

With Miis they've actually grown on me more and are kind of fun consolation prizes if your character didn't make the cut especially Bomberman for me and Ultimate has had more exciting implementation of Mii costumes than Smash 4 did. I still use the Isaac one a lot too. But yeah it doesn't fill the gap of wanting your character to get the full treatment of what a new playable character in Ultimate gets content wise and Golden Sun not having anyone on the roster with all the other Nintendo franchises still feels wrong to me personally

 

[TempestSurge]

some people in this thread get weirdly hostile when you say anything that contradicts what they want to happen. Sadly it's very stifling for golden sun fans who support the franchise but who aren't optimistic about its future. makes this place unwelcoming

But you're right to doubt. Just ignore the heat. some people forget we're talking about video games, not human rights. it's ok to just disagree on the internet

To be fair the trademark was met with its share of pessimism and no one really believing it would amount to anything initially way back in 2018. That was also before Isaac's assist reveal when this thread was blazing through pages. In 1000 pages sometimes the same pessimistic conversations about Golden Sun's future would cycle over and over again. I would say this thread was way more negative than it was ever positive about Golden Sun or Isaac's chances for Smash. Of course this thread cut way down in activity when Isaac's assist was revealed leaving only a few of us to keep the thread uplifted and shift gears to Golden Sun as a whole.

I guess it comes off as an optimistic hive mind cause you can only go up from rock bottom and since most of us are regulars we've been through all the explanations in regards to the trademark. I honestly just remembered Billybae10K made a video on the topic with all the details. That might make it easier for newer posters to get up to speed in that regard vs having to rethread back 200 pages or so.

 

[Krosshair]

Sheesh, what the hell did I miss lmao

Anyways, yeah, I think the new game itself is bound to happen, but I’m content with waiting until Smash 6 for Isaac as much as I wanted to main him for Ultimate

Sounding off with some of the other users in the thread on Discord earlier this year made me realize that Smash isn’t important at all for what we’re aiming for now, though it would be a VERY nice bonus

 

[N3ON]

If this thread was more negative than positive about Isaac's chances it wouldn't have blazed through 1000 pages in the first place.

Much of it is rather untethered idealizing, including the current leading theory as to Isaac's potential inclusion, but it's not wanting for positivity, and hasn't been since the renewal began to circulate. Which is nice up to the point it starts obscuring realism and making responses to skepticism unnecessarily volatile.

 

[NessAtc.]

It gets tiring to say this a lot, but the trademark isn't a renewal. It's actually a new trademark. With new categories and everything corresponding to new switch releases. A renewal is literally renewing an existing trademark for an extra period of time. With the old categories and such. This isn't what that is. Just because it's "Golden Sun" and there was already a Golden Sun trademark does not mean that this new one is a renewal. It sharing the same name does not mean it shares the same instatement date, nor the same categories.

It is a different, newer trademark.

 

[Monue]

For my part in today's activities I hope I didn't come across as gatekeeping, like I was shutting down all dissent, or as an asshole.

While I didn't and don't agree with One-Winged Bagel, I meant to have a friendly debate about it, not to cause strife. I am sorry if I caused any negative feelings or anger. My general attitude towards Smash these days has been just, I don't know, coasting and see what happens. I share my opinion when things get too confirmy, or de-confirmy, because I don't think we as a community have any idea behind Nintendo/Sakurai's decisions, and I think our track record backs that up, coupled with the fact that none of us are insiders.

I think Isaac's chances exist, I think he could still get in, or he could not, for any number of reasons. I certainly want him in. I like to share why I think he'd be a good candidate, and what I think he has going in his favor. But even if he doesn't, I do look forward to and hope for the future of the franchise.

 

[N3ON]

It gets tiring to say this a lot, but the trademark isn't a renewal. It's actually a new trademark. With new categories and everything corresponding to new switch releases. A renewal is literally renewing an existing trademark for an extra period of time. With the old categories and such. This isn't what that is. Just because it's "Golden Sun" and there was already a Golden Sun trademark does not mean that this new one is a renewal. It sharing the same name does not mean it shares the same instatement date, nor the same categories.

It is a different, newer trademark.

It's not technically a renewal, no. It is a new trademark. But I don't see how it's indicative of more than Nintendo retaining their ownership considering you'll find the same new trademarks filed for series from everything from Wii Play to Wrecking Crew to Sin & Punishment to freaking Elite Beat Agents the same year GS filed for its new trademark. Even Wii Music got a new trademark. Wii Music.

The trademark laws changed since many of those original trademarks were filed. Maybe they made new trademarks to correspond to the new laws, or the new regions in which they were applying the trademark. I'm not sure, but they are all new trademarks. Different application numbers, different registration numbers, timing that often doesn't relate to an anniversary. From what I can glean, the points used to prove the GS trademark is new apply to all of these as well.

I mean, you think we're going to get a new Wii Play? A new Elite Beat Agents? A new Disaster: Day of Crisis? (yes, that one was filed too)

I'd love to get new titles in many of the series that received new trademarks in 2018. S&P, Starfy, Rhythm Heaven, Advance Wars, Star Fox, especially Golden Sun. But I'm not seeing where the difference is here, from a legal perspective.

 

[NessAtc.]

It's not technically a renewal, no. It is a new trademark. But I don't see how it's indicative of more than Nintendo retaining their ownership considering you'll find the same new trademarks filed for series from everything from Wii Play to Wrecking Crew to Sin & Punishment to freaking Elite Beat Agents the same year GS filed for its new trademark. Even Wii Music got a new trademark. Wii Music.

The trademark laws changed since many of those original trademarks were filed. Maybe they made new trademarks to correspond to the new laws, or the new regions in which they were applying the trademark. I'm not sure, but they are all new trademarks. Different application numbers, different registration numbers, timing that often doesn't relate to an anniversary. From what I can glean, the points used to prove the GS trademark is new apply to all of these as well.

I mean, you think we're going to get a new Wii Play? A new Elite Beat Agents? A new Disaster: Day of Crisis? (yes, that one was filed too)

I'd love to get new titles in many of the series that received new trademarks in 2018. S&P, Starfy, Rhythm Heaven, Advance Wars, Star Fox, especially Golden Sun. But I'm not seeing where the difference is here, from a legal perspective.

Because that's not the only indicator? There's also the fact that we've had total and utter radio silence from Camelot for nearly the last three years. There's also the fact that Hiroyuki Takahashi expressly stated he wanted to make more RPGs when asked about Shining Force in late 2017. There's the fact of Tennis Aces having a LOT of inspiration drawn from Camelot's RPGs, from their locales to the world map topography. Not to mention that the aforementioned trademark, unlike all the other ones you brought up, was actually battled for until this very year.

And so, I'd like to ask you something. Why do you think Golden Sun hasn't gotten a game in ten years? I have a feeling I know why you think it, but I'd just like to be sure.

 

[Monue]

Even Wii Music got a new trademark. Wii Music.

This is actually news to me. I wasn't aware of other new trademarks for old properties, especially something like Wii Music. If these are all the same kind of thing, then yeah, what are we hoping for here? I know Naz has gone over this a million times, and clearly they're getting frustrated, but if what I'm reading is true, then there isn't any guarantee of anything, which certainly changes things in a drastic way.

It would certainly explain why the media doesn't talk about these things more, and we all know Nintendo is legally overzealous with their properties, so they could have just been diligent in creating these new trademarks for existing properties.

It would also explain that supposed leaker's mention of a Mario Sports title on the horizon, rather than Golden Sun.

I'm all about tangible evidence, originally what I'd seen suggested Golden Sun was for sure coming, but this casts that into doubt. Why should we assume Golden Sun is getting a remake if Wii Music got the same treatment and lets be honest - likely isn't?

Because of an extra trademark in Korea? Because Camelot has been silent? That's actually pretty dubious... Now we're just assuming things, which I railed against earlier today. : P

Whelp, until someone explains it in a way that gives me hope again, back to misery!

 

[NessAtc.]

It would also explain that supposed leaker's mention of a Mario Sports title on the horizon, rather than Golden Sun.

I'm all about tangible evidence, originally what I'd seen suggested Golden Sun was for sure coming, but this casts that into doubt. Why should we assume Golden Sun is getting a remake if Wii Music got the same treatment and lets be honest - likely isn't?

Because of an extra trademark in Korea? Because Camelot has been silent? That's actually pretty dubious... Now we're just assuming things, which I railed against earlier today. : P

Supposed leaker? You mean Zippo? Yeah sure. If you want to take him at face value be my guest, but the man's track record is quite literally at nil.

The key thing is that you aren't supposed to take ANY of this just on their own. If you do that, of course it won't be convincing. You're supposed to take the trademark, the statements in the past years by Camelot, the scheduling, the not one, not two, but three leaks of Golden Sun on separate occasions, and Camelot's inactivity all at once. None of these things are assumptions. You have no idea how many credits lists I've combed to compare the Camelot roster.

I even brought myself up to speed on all of these relevant matters. It's fine if you don't want to believe/approach it with skepticism. That's all well and good. What I absolutely detest is all this information I'm throwing out there that I've collected over this time being just thrown in the garbage in favour of a leaker with the credibility of a long-nosed Pinocchio. I'm easily the single most skeptical person on this thread period, and yet it's impossible for me to simply assume that Golden Sun is not on the way.

The sales data of Golden Sun is also exceptionally important, and you can view that here.

Spoiler

Nintendo software and hardware sales data from 1983 to present

I'm going to keep this thread updated with new, more updated data. I will usually update the thread yearly (around May each year since it is when Nintendo reveal the results for the full fiscal year). UPDATED WITH DATA UNTIL SEPTEMBER 2020 Note: It's shipment data provided by Nintendo itself...

www.resetera.com

What this tangible data tells us is that yes, Golden Sun is a profitable franchise for Camelot to develop, and its demand hit a fever pitch in 2017-2018, a feat we've been keeping going with the events since. You want to know the reason why Camelot never made a Golden Sun for 3DS or Wii U? Because you can't justify a project that big without having some financial wiggle room, which they did not quite have coming off the backs of We Love Golf, and DD's decent but not exceptionally profitable sales. Now they've made the single best selling game they've ever produced in the history of their company.

This is the last I'm talking about this. Take it as you will. I no longer care how any of you interpret all of this; just know that there's zero reason to just give up. And that's the key reason I don't like the GS community; it's all so cynical.

 

[N3ON]

Because that's not the only indicator?

There's also the fact that we've had total and utter radio silence from Camelot for nearly the last three years.

Yes, well, if you've caught the news recently there's been a pandemic on that pushed a lot of Nintendo's games into the following year.

This thread's penchant for acting like the year has otherwise played out normally is very strange.

There's also the fact that Hiroyuki Takahashi expressly stated he wanted to make more RPGs when asked about Shining Force in late 2017.

Right, it's not up to him, though. It's up to Nintendo. He also said he'd be willing to make another GS back in 2012, and that's almost nine years ago.

There's the fact of Tennis Aces having a LOT of inspiration drawn from Camelot's RPGs, from their locales to the world map topography.

If Camelot was the only developer that made nods to its own work, that would be more meaningful.

Monolith, HAL, Game Freak, Retro, Intelligent Systems, they all do it.

And so, I'd like to ask you something. Why do you think Golden Sun hasn't gotten a game in ten years? I have a feeling I know why you think it, but I'd just like to be sure.

Because I imagine that Nintendo sees a better ROI with a safe, unambitious Mario sports game than an RPG (which is also a more intensive genre to create) that has a mixed history sales-wise. I don't think they gave it much of a chance considering there was only one title that didn't do well, but picking profits over fairness doesn't surprise me. They're a business.

I'm not saying a GS is off the table. I'm saying I don't see these being the indicators they're touted as.

This is actually news to me. I wasn't aware of other new trademarks for old properties, especially something like Wii Music. If these are all the same kind of thing, then yeah, what are we hoping for here? I know Naz has gone over this a million times, and clearly they're getting frustrated, but if what I'm reading is true, then there isn't any guarantee of anything, which certainly changes things in a drastic way.

It would certainly explain why the media doesn't talk about these things more, and we all know Nintendo is legally overzealous with their properties, so they could have just been diligent in creating these new trademarks for existing properties.

It would also explain that supposed leaker's mention of a Mario Sports title on the horizon, rather than Golden Sun.

I'm all about tangible evidence, originally what I'd seen suggested Golden Sun was for sure coming, but this casts that into doubt. Why should we assume Golden Sun is getting a remake if Wii Music got the same treatment and lets be honest - likely isn't?

Because of an extra trademark in Korea? Because Camelot has been silent? That's actually pretty dubious... Now we're just assuming things, which I railed against earlier today. : P

Whelp, until someone explains it in a way that gives me hope again, back to misery!

I knew about the Wrecking Crew, Super Sluggers and Rhythm Heaven trademarks beforehand. But then I did some digging and my goodness there are a lot. I haven't even found them all. I just started guessing random Nintendo IP and quite a few of them were listed.

 

[NessAtc.]

And THAT'S your key problem right there N3ON. You're assuming that NINTENDO is the one that asks for any game that Camelot makes. You're assuming that Camelot is at Nintendo's every whim for whatever projects to develop. You're assuming that Camelot MUST just want to make whatever they want, it's Nintendo that wants all of these sports spinoffs! Talk to me about assumptions all you want, but you're the one assuming the most here.

Nintendo is the one that actually wanted Golden Sun 3 to happen in 2003. Camelot is the one that didn't want to make it then. What does this tell us?

What Nintendo wants Camelot to make does not bloody matter whatsoever. They do not take such an active interest in outside companies to where they will expressly deny anything that they don't want to further their brand. Camelot chooses every single project they take on. Nintendo has no role in deciding what Camelot does or doesn't do even remotely, and this holds true for every company that Nintendo works with. The only thing they have say in is how the IP is used and represented. That's it. They are NOT going to say no to a Golden Sun game just because "a Mario sports game would be safer." That's Camelot's decision through and through.

And if you'll look at the sales data I posted earlier, look at where Mario Golf sits. In the history of the entire series, Mario Golf has broken 1 million sales one time. Is that your definition of a "safe" game? This is the reason that Golf hasn't gotten a new entry.

Your business minded approach towards Nintendo's interactions with their related developers is incredibly misguided and riddled with the most assumptions out of any argument on this thread.

 

[Monue]

This is the last I'm talking about this. Take it as you will. I no longer care how any of you interpret all of this; just know that there's zero reason to just give up. And that's the key reason I don't like the GS community; it's all so cynical.

Hey man, this is weird for me, I spent my morning being pro-Isaac and pro-Golden Sun, and now it's evening and I've learned a few things, and one of my arguments stood on less solid ground than I thought. I'm on the communities side here, but these things you're saying (at least some of them) are conjecture, even when taken as a whole.

I'm also not saying I believe Zippo, I'm just saying he said Sports was coming, and now it's a little more plausible in my opinion that it might be. I don't want it to be, and I agree with you that there is still a lot going for Golden Sun, you're right.

It's just a little less than I had, personally, originally, thought - that's all. I put all my eggs in the "It's a NEW trademark" basket, but evidently there were a lot of those. You can't blame a guy for getting a bit disheartened by that. Now there's other things, sure, you're right, but I'd be a complete hypocrite if I just ignored these new trademark listings without reexamining my own opinions.

For example, I said earlier that just because Sakurai/Nintendo said "future-use" was a factor in the Smash roster, it doesn't mean anything now - that same line of thought applies to what Hiroyuki Takahashi and Camelot have said. They can say what they want in time past, but things change, and they often do. Just because someone say something doesn't mean it's going to happen. We can all use whatever logic we want to justify our opinions, but none of us have much proof, only conjecture. Originally I had the new Trademark to believe in, it seemed like solid proof, now that's more dubious than I thought, I've gotta reexamine things.

It's weird! It's the same stuff I was saying in favor of Golden Sun this morning. : P I don't WANT to be a non-believer, and I'm not deep down, because I want to have hope - but I've gotta be true to myself. The trademark thing changes things for me.

 

[NessAtc.]

Hey man, this is weird for me, I spent my morning being pro-Isaac and pro-Golden Sun, and now it's evening and I've learned a few things, and one of my arguments stood on less solid ground than I thought. I'm on the communities side here, but these things you're saying (at least some of them) are conjecture, even when taken as a whole.

I'm also not saying I believe Zippo, I'm just saying he said Sports was coming, and now it's a little more plausible in my opinion that it might be. I don't want it to be, and I agree with you that there is still a lot going for Golden Sun, you're right.

And I'm saying there's zero reason to take his word on it. I'd take NateDrake's instead, and funny enough, he said Mario Golf was not happening.

I appreciate that you're re-examining your biases and understanding that you might get swayed too easily. I'm an avid promoter of free thought. Even from an argumentative perspective, it's not fun at all if people just agree with you. Just as long as you understand where I'm coming from, and approach it from an unbiased perspective, that's good enough for me; it means I did my job well enough in conveying the information as it is, without it being skewed extraordinarily badly.

 

[ZelDan]

This is the last I'm talking about this. Take it as you will. I no longer care how any of you interpret all of this; just know that there's zero reason to just give up. And that's the key reason I don't like the GS community; it's all so cynical.

I mean, can you blame a Golden Sun fan for being Cynical? We're talking about a franchise that hasn't gotten a game in over a decade lol.

And to be fair I don't know if I've seen THAT much cynicism (granted, most of my exposure with GS fans comes from this thread, don't know about parts of the internet). We've had golden Sundays, people seem to have gotten a little hope again for Isaac ever since FP2 was announced, Billy made some positive videos about Golden Sun, etc.