Summer 2012 Reconstruction

[Sieguest]

http://www.mediafire.com/?uw7ae6n0u105fiv

Long overdue chart is finally done. I was going to add some color but I said "screw it" at the end. The entire cast is in this workbook.

There have been some slight format changes to the workbook in general.
I added even more "useless" columns so that I could make the rest of the workbook purely formula based. This helped to cut down on possible errors and if there actually is an error then it's mostly likely recurring (due to it being calculated by a formula) and can be fixed with a quick edit of the formula instead of having to re-figure everything for every single sheet in the workbook.

Everything else has pretty much stayed the same, as explained earlier:

Note: A negative number in the field indicates that you have that many frames to correct spacing.

The spreadsheet also shows the inputs per frame the opponent needs to input in order to mash at any given percent up to 300%.

Note: A negative number in this field doesn't really mean much as they're derived from the fields that had negative answers from "Frames to mash blah blah blah". Assuming you buffered the throw no need to worry. Seeing as how the inputs per frame to mash will change per frame you wait if you didn't throw, there's no way I could put a more "useful" number in place of the negatives.

-(For new climbers) Please don't start CGs with bthrow, it's way too many frames to wait and any good masher is probably going to mash. Dthrow is the best throw to start CGs with.

-As kind of a complement to Lux's earlier post, you can't buffer CGs to make them truly unmashable. There just comes a point where it's highly impractical to be able to mash out of the CG (Unless you're not human or something...)

-No worries about that break method K Prime brought up in one of our biggest matchups! :D

So there you have it. :D

EDIT2: Updated link. Fixed the roll cancel. Also wanting to make something clear. These numbers are if the climbers are doing everything they can to minimize breaking frames in the CG. There is a method to avoid having to wait out the roll canceling delay (See the Legend of EA thread). However if you choose not to do that, then add 7 to each number under a column that has a dash or pivot regrab in its name.

2/24/2011 EDIT: More tweaks. Took a lot of ambiguity out of the workbook. The size is now down to only 17MBs so now you can download more movies to your computer (Not like this sheet stopped you in the first place lol)

Changes: A LOT less columns. Implemented some new functions in order to accomplish this.

Added a shield buffer column to show whether or not you must shield buffer certain CGs (You can tell which CGs are affected by this by checking if there is an "IF" function in the formula bar when you go over the cell.)

Added a column showing the theoretical maximum which those who are grabbed can mash.

Due to some of the values in mashable frames sections being positive I decided to apply the ABS function to the "inputs per frame to mash" section. As a general note, If there are ridiculous decimal answers in that section and you're high up in the percent, then you don't need to worry about that specific cell. Just keep in mind that this will occur a lot as only a few "frames to mash" columns actually have positive answers. (You'll see them in the lighter characters).

 

[DeLux]

The roll cancel mechanics may or may not be true. If I understand the mechanics behind it, then LEAPGing will get rid of roll cancel frames if they are nescessary to account for at all. However, cstick doesn't work in frame advance, so it's educated guessing on my part lol

And this chart is genius. It's actually even useful as a whole for EVERY character, not just IC's.

 

[-LzR-]

Lol I didn't know that bthrow shouldn't be used as a starter throw. xD
Will check the chart tomorrow and give my feedbackstuff.

 

[Roller]

Interesting...

 

[DeLux]

Please reupload in Word 2003 compatible format so I don't have to

Or else I'll be changing the name of the spreadsheet on the redistribution haha

 

[Sieguest]

Please reupload in Word 2003 compatible format so I don't have to

Or else I'll be changing the name of the spreadsheet on the redistribution haha

You don't have 2003 Excel (or earlier)? o.o Because I know I uploaded it as an 2003 Excel Worksheet...

Or did you just want it on Word?

Either way, check back here shortly. Scratch that. I can put it in word. But you can hardly read the chart like.... at all....

 

[DeLux]

Hold that thought, I didn't bother to check. I meant excel, and he said it wasn't in 2003 compatible format. If it is, his computer is bad and it's not my fault haha

 

[Sieguest]

Ok. After school I'll see if I can read it when I download it to my desktop. It only runs 03 so if I can pull it up from there then it would probably be his computer. o.o

 

[Rubberbandman]

Umm, pretty sure you can still read .xlsx files in excel.

Just drop the ending "x" off of .xlsx and it should be readable for windows 03 and below.

 

[Sieguest]

'Cept it's already .xls lol. Anyway it seems that problem just kind of worked itself out. (I think...)

 

[Ohmu]

Lux just directed me to this thread from the Ice Climbers Q&A boards; it's totally awesome. You should be awarded an Ice Climbers Ph.D. or something! I just just have a few questions about interpreting it:

1. In the "frames to mash before next throw" columns, it often says things like "Popo bthrow->Nana dash or pivot regrab after dthrow." I'm a little confused about how the two throws listed here are different. If popo bthrows to nana, then nana is regrabbing after a bthrow, not a dthrow, right? Or do you mean that popo bthrows, and then nana dthrows?

2. By shield buffering, do you mean what happens when you hold Z as you throw to make the other ice climber slide back over to you?

3. In the "downtime to action" columns, you include an ice climber's name and a type of throw. For instance, "bthrow, standing, Nana, with shield buffer." Does the number in the cell then refer to the frames that it takes nana to act before regrabbing a popo bthrow from the time that you press the grab button?

4. I'm guessing that the "downtime to action" columns are what one should look at when trying to determine which throws are most adjustable for spacing. Am I right in assuming this? I wonder because I've been told that he dthrow is most adjustable for spacing than the bthrow, but yet the "downtime to action" columns for the dthrow have lower numbers than, for instance, the bthrow, which would lead me to believe you have less time to make an adjustment?? Or is it the opposite, that since a dthrow has less downtime to action, you have more time to make an adjustment before you run out of time to regrab?

5. What do the the second and third columns, "duration" and "inputs to mash" (B & C) refer to, given that they don't specify details like which kind of throw it is? Are they just base values that aid in calculating the values for the rest of the row?

Thanks so much for the work you put into that awesome chart, it must have been a really monumental project. As a new IC player it's really helpful in figuring out what kind of chaingrabs are most feasible!

 

[Sieguest]

Lux just directed me to this thread from the Ice Climbers Q&A boards; it's totally awesome. You should be awarded an Ice Climbers Ph.D. or something! I just just have a few questions about interpreting it:

Thanks!

1. In the "frames to mash before next throw" columns, it often says things like "Popo bthrow->Nana dash or pivot regrab after dthrow." I'm a little confused about how the two throws listed here are different. If popo bthrows to nana, then nana is regrabbing after a bthrow, not a dthrow, right? Or do you mean that popo bthrows, and then nana dthrows?

"Popo bthrow" is the actual throw that is happening.
"After Nana dthrow" is the throw that Nana has previously done that Popo regrabbed from and is now going to do the aforementioned bthrow. In short interpret it like this:

Nana dthrow->Popo regrab->Popo bthrow->Nana Regrab.
The frames are being calculated between steps 3 and 4. The reason I have to make that specification is because of the difference between the differences of the IASA-Hitbox for dthrow,bthrow and fthrow.

2. By shield buffering, do you mean what happens when you hold Z as you throw to make the other ice climber slide back over to you?

Yes.

3. In the "downtime to action" columns, you include an ice climber's name and a type of throw. For instance, "bthrow, standing, Nana, with shield buffer." Does the number in the cell then refer to the frames that it takes nana to act before regrabbing a popo bthrow from the time that you press the grab button?

The throw represents the throw that has previously been done in the CG when either Nana or Popo threw to the other climber, the "standing" or "dash/pivot regrab" indicates what type of regrab she will be doing, the name represents which climber the information is in reference to. Shield or not shield buffered refers to whether the climber must shield buffer after the throw to be ready for the next regrab (that'll only apply to Nana). For an example lets use the title you brought up:

"bthrow, standing, Nana, with shield buffer."

Bthrow is the throw that Nana has previously performed which Popo has regrabbed and will perform some unknown throw (it doesn't really matter since that won't affect the value any). Standing is what type of regrab Nana will be doing, Nana just indicates that these numbers apply to Nana, "with shield buffer" means that shield buffer frames were accounted for when determining this data.

4. I'm guessing that the "downtime to action" columns are what one should look at when trying to determine which throws are most adjustable for spacing. Am I right in assuming this? I wonder because I've been told that he dthrow is most adjustable for spacing than the bthrow, but yet the "downtime to action" columns for the dthrow have lower numbers than, for instance, the bthrow, which would lead me to believe you have less time to make an adjustment?? Or is it the opposite, that since a dthrow has less downtime to action, you have more time to make an adjustment before you run out of time to regrab?

Downtime to action columns show how many frames you have to wait before you can do something. The lower the number, the more frames you potentially have for space correction are available. This is because when calculating the frames to mash before "insert situation here" You're going to use the downtime to action column - optimal regrab frame for the throw being regrabbed. The reason dthrow becomes so good is that the optimal regrab frame on the throw is so high (compared to the others) that it sometimes covers the complete downtime of the climber having to wait.

5. What do the the second and third columns, "duration" and "inputs to mash" (B & C) refer to, given that they don't specify details like which kind of throw it is? Are they just base values that aid in calculating the values for the rest of the row?

They're just values used to help calculate some of the later information in the chart.

Thanks so much for the work you put into that awesome chart, it must have been a really monumental project. As a new IC player it's really helpful in figuring out what kind of chaingrabs are most feasible!

It was only the first two that took the longest, the rest was just formula pasting. (Thank goodness I didn't have to reinsert everything that many times.)

Upon taking another look at it, I may have erred by including the amount of regrab frames in the downtime to action sections. Reason being that since it's possible to grab from an idle position at any moment as soon as the climber goes idle is when the throw can start... not six or eight frames later... I didn't catch it until I was referencing my chart to answer you. I'll fix that and add some user-friendly colorcoding this weekend and have another link up. If people have already downloaded it and don't wish to redownload only a minor fix in it, then you could always take out the D and E cell references in the top row of Downtime to Action and then fill down to row 302. Then you can click the "select all" button (I know it selects the whole chart but it's slightly less time consuming than selecting just that area) and copy paste to the other sheets.

My apologies for doing that, seemed right at the time. Plus side is that it leaves even less frames for mashers to mash (or more frames for you to adjust spacing). x.x Disregard all this, the original calculation is correct (Downtime to action including regrab frame, since then all negative [extra] frames are actually frames when you're not committed to an action and can adjust for spacing while still grabbing at the earliest possible time. Never came back to say it here in this thread. General idea and conclusions remain unchanged. Correction made for off-chance reader's grace.)

EDIT: Upon the changes a lot of columns start to become copies of each other, I may be able to consolidate the chart some so that it's not so bulky now too.

 

[Ohmu]

Cool, thanks for the clarification. Hopefully I can learn to use this chart to answer a lot of my own questions, so I can stop bugging people in the Q&A section. I'm currently trying to figure out the optimal way to start chaingrabs on lightweights while on a platform, so I'm trying to see if it's feasible to input buffered dthrows in such a way that I won't platform drop.

I feel fortunate to be picking up ice climbers after a lot of information like this (and Lux's recommended desync substitutions) has been released; hopefully I can cultivate the best habits from the start.

Upon taking another look at it, I may have erred by including the amount of regrab frames in the downtime to action sections....My apologies for doing that, seemed right at the time.

Lol, no need to apologize. It's not like you're getting paid.

If people have already downloading it and don't wish to redownload only a minor fix in it, then you could always take out the D and E cell references in the top row of Downtime to Action and then fill down to row 302. Then you can click the "select all" button (I know it selects the whole chart but it's slightly less time consuming than selecting just that area) and copy paste to the other sheets.

Yeahhh ... I think I might have to leave that to you. My experience with excel is limited to Microcomputer Applications 101, and that was...almost 9 years ago. ~sheepishly grimaces~

 

[DeLux]

I feel fortunate to be picking up ice climbers after a lot of information like this (and Lux's recommended desync substitutions) has been released; hopefully I can cultivate the best habits from the start.

I use the following desyncs exclusively now in order of how much I use them:

Mostly Lux Desync 1
Kakera Dash Back
Squall
Belay on ledge
Hylian
RIDSC

Toss in hitlag somewhere in the middle, but I don't use that yet to fullest because I haven't figured out exactly how Lux Desync 2 works. When I do I'll use that third most.

IF I get good at some point and people want to copy my style, I'll write a thread on how I approach everything. But I need to win first

 

[Ohmu]

I use the following desyncs exclusively now in order of how much I use them:

Mostly Lux Desync 1
Kakera Dash Back
Squall
Belay on ledge
Hylian
RIDSC

I thought you recommended to replace the Kakera Dash Back desync with a SND Shield Drop? (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=291614) (I'm guessing SND stands for "Standing Nana Desync?") By the way, by "Kakera dash back" do you mean back > forard > popo shield drop > nana special? (And should I take the fact that you're calling it the "kakara dash back desync to imply that there's another type of kakera desync?)

As for the Lux Desync 1, I'm very interested in it but it seems like you've censored your instructions on how to do it ;-) I found this youtube video on it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBYo3rpl3_c but can't decipher it yet.

By the RIDSC, you mean "reverse initial dash shield cancel," right? Just out of curiosity, a RID desynch has nana acting first normally, right? So if you shield cancel it, popo acts first. It seems like nana acting first would be more useful. What do you use it for?

 

[DeLux]

That's "old" stuff. Actually it's funny you mention that, I've been tinkering my game for certain matchups and remembered the SND > Shield drop trick. I've been looking for situations to apply it to my game. It's actually very good because it's almost truly spacing neutral (no progress forward or back) in terms of grab setups. Outside of the Hylian/FID LD1 which are end point neutral as well, certain desync setups lend themselves to being defense (i.e. doing LD1 out of run away from opponent) or aggro (Kakera Dash Back). So I use the KDB over SNDSD if and only if I'm really going hard aggro and trying to control space on the level. SNDSD is more to sort of force action when I don't have room to do anything else, as of now. I won't have anymore utility updates until I see how my gameplan works at my next tourney.


LOL @ Censoring. I forgot about that. I did that because if you read on through the thread, I was told that LD1 was not new and had been known because my original video was of it out of landing lag. I got tired of arguing with the ignorant people and decided to take it off to help the people that truly wanted to know. LD1 is so versatile that it's hard to go wrong when using it correctly. It's defensive if used on the ground out of run, but also aggro if used from the Air or OoS that's non DSC. On top of that, it's very easy to do. I restored two other grainy *** videos on my Youtube account to the public to view, so you can see how versatile it is.

In all fairness, since it's imo the desync gimmick to end all gimmicks, I try to teach it to only serious IC mains. There's a learning curve with this character that we most of us had to go through where out tech skill wasn't operating on the same level as what we wanted to do with the character, causing us to lose. But overcoming that curve is probably the most rewarding experience for the Climbers, and why would I want to deprive you of that experience? So stick around for a bit and keep asking good questions, maybe get some vids as a dedicated IC player, and THEN I'll teach you mah baby of a gimmick

Spoiler

Or you could PM me and I'll teach you

 

[Sieguest]

Guest's Awesome Sales Pitch.

24 MB Refund!
Available while supplies last!

New Features:
2/24/2011 EDIT: More tweaks. Took a lot of ambiguity out of the workbook. The size is now down to only 17MBs so now you can download more movies to your computer (Not like this sheet stopped you in the first place lol)

A LOT less columns. Implemented some new functions in order to accomplish this.

Added a shield buffer column to show whether or not you must shield buffer certain CGs (You can tell which CGs are affected by this by checking if there is an "IF" function in the formula bar when you go over the cell.)

Added a column showing the theoretical maximum which those who are grabbed can mash.

Due to some of the values in mashable frames sections being positive I decided to apply the ABS function to the "inputs per frame to mash" section. As a general note, If there are ridiculous decimal answers in that section and you're high up in the percent, then you don't need to worry about that specific cell. Just keep in mind that this will occur a lot as only a few "frames to mash" columns actually have positive answers. (You'll see them in the lighter characters).

It can be yours for the sale storage of 17MBs! GET YOURS NOW!

 

[EverAlert]

guest 2g, too bad google docs IS A **** HEAD

 

[Luigisama]

good read and interesting data.

 

[Sieguest]

Well, since this has been holy'd from the grave now and it's on my mind at the moment I may as well say it. At the moment I'm currently working on using SWF's table function stuff to put all of the data into a viewable table on SWF so that people don't have to bother DLing it. It'll be coming along with the guide so as soon as I finish the charts, the guide will be done too. heh.

Thank you all the same though.

Le Skeleton

{colsp=1} Bowser

{colsp=4}General Mechanics
Percent|Duration|Inputs to Mash|Shield buffer?
0|90|11.25(12)|No

{colsp=12}Specific Throw Data
Hitbox(bthrow)|Total(bthrow)|FAF(bthrow)|Hitbox(fthrow)|Total(fthrow)|FAF(fthrow)|Hitbox(dthrow)|Total(dthrow)|FAF(dthrow)|Optimal Regrab Frame(bthrow)|Optimal Regrab Frame(fthrow)|Optimal Regrab Frame(dthrow)
22|57|48|24|54|50|45|69|60|23|25|46

{colsp=6}Frames to Mash Before Initial Throw
standing grab bthrow->Nana regrab|dash or pivot grab bthrow->Nana regrab|standing grab dthrow->Nana regrab|dash/pivot grab dthrow->Nana regrab|standing grab fthrow->Nana regrab|dash/pivot grab fthrow->Nana regrab
13|21|-10|-2|11|19

{colsp=9}Frames to Mash Before Next Throw
bthrow->regrab after bthrow|bthrow->regrab after dthrow|bthrow->regrab after fthrow|dthrow->regrab after bthrow|dthrow->regrab after fthrow|dthrow->regrab after dthrow|fthrow->regrab after fthrow|fthrow->regrab after bthrow|fthrow->regrab after dthrow
10|-1|10|-13|-13|-24|8|8|-3

{colsp=15}Inputs per Frame to Mash
initial standing grab bthrow->Nana regrab|initial dash/pivot grab bthrow->Nana regrab|initial standing grab dthrow->Nana regrab|initial dash/pivot grab dthrow->Nana regrab|initial standing grab fthrow->Nana regrab|Initial dash/pivot grab fthrow->Nana regrab|bthrow->regrab after bthrow|bthrow->regrab after dthrow|bthrow->regrab after fthrow|dthrow->regrab after bthrow|dthrow->regrab after fthrow|dthrow->regrab after dthrow|fthrow->regrab after fthrow|fthrow->regrab after bthrow|fthrow->regrab after dthrow

This is gonna take longer than I thought. (Because of the first subsection and the last subsection being percent dependent.) Also since I got access to h4x and did a reanalysis of my numbers/logic, I need to add 14 to the frames to mash . Although I could get rid of the common knowledge stuff like when the grabs come out and the nana constant etc. Those were only there when I was working with spreadsheet app for formulas. I could also get rid of the downtime to action since those were only generated for formulas.
btw before someone jumps at me to put a "6" and "8" for the standing and pivot grabs. I counted frames via 0 indexed time intervals. e.g. the passage of time between point 0(input) and point 1(passage of 1/60 of a second) is a frame. so 0-1 is frame 1 1-2 is frame 2 etc. Just made more sense to me that way.

 

[Roller]

Good **** helping the community so much, Guest. =]

 

[Sieguest]

S'all good. Was actually trying to work on this during the semester, but never really had more than like 30 minutes at a time after studying/obligations etc. Now I've got a good almost two months.

 

[| Big D |]

That's "old" stuff. Actually it's funny you mention that, I've been tinkering my game for certain matchups and remembered the SND > Shield drop trick. I've been looking for situations to apply it to my game. It's actually very good because it's almost truly spacing neutral (no progress forward or back) in terms of grab setups. Outside of the Hylian/FID LD1 which are end point neutral as well, certain desync setups lend themselves to being defense (i.e. doing LD1 out of run away from opponent) or aggro (Kakera Dash Back). So I use the KDB over SNDSD if and only if I'm really going hard aggro and trying to control space on the level. SNDSD is more to sort of force action when I don't have room to do anything else, as of now. I won't have anymore utility updates until I see how my gameplan works at my next tourney.


LOL @ Censoring. I forgot about that. I did that because if you read on through the thread, I was told that LD1 was not new and had been known because my original video was of it out of landing lag. I got tired of arguing with the ignorant people and decided to take it off to help the people that truly wanted to know. LD1 is so versatile that it's hard to go wrong when using it correctly. It's defensive if used on the ground out of run, but also aggro if used from the Air or OoS that's non DSC. On top of that, it's very easy to do. I restored two other grainy *** videos on my Youtube account to the public to view, so you can see how versatile it is.

In all fairness, since it's imo the desync gimmick to end all gimmicks, I try to teach it to only serious IC mains. There's a learning curve with this character that we most of us had to go through where out tech skill wasn't operating on the same level as what we wanted to do with the character, causing us to lose. But overcoming that curve is probably the most rewarding experience for the Climbers, and why would I want to deprive you of that experience? So stick around for a bit and keep asking good questions, maybe get some vids as a dedicated IC player, and THEN I'll teach you mah baby of a gimmick

Spoiler

Or you could PM me and I'll teach you

Why would I send a PM Up until now I thought that the "Lux Desync" was that sexy shield drop desync you used on Kain. After I saw that I practiced it and just got it now before this post lol.

As far as I know the LD1 is a 2 dash in which the secondary climber ib's?

If I'm wrong please correct me and two what other applications are there besides the obvious grab set up and a way to start desyncs?

I'm also interested in desync storing, I can get it like 1/3 of the time but I really don't know the timing, or how you manage to start desyncs from it.

My vision is to play like the 2010 Kakera, he was so much fun to watch and I really enjoy trying to emulate his style.

As for vids to prove I'm a dedicated ICs main, here is some stuff from our last regional/local.

[COLLAPSE="Tourney Vids"]Local

Me vs Captain L GF

Me vs Captain L WSF

Phoenix 7

Me vs Killock WSF

Me vs Felix LSF

Me vs Asadelta LQF

Me Vs Firefly L5

Me vs Atilla L4
[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Sieguest]

Why the hell did you post that here?

 

[Rubberbandman]

I'd like to watch the tourney matches BigD, but they make my eyes bleed. @_@

To add to the ICs reconstruction, I'll try my video library idea again. (If someone actually uses the videos >_>)

 

[| Big D |]

Why the hell did you post that here?

Sorry about that, I was responding to Iridescent's post about "the desync gimmick to end all gimmicks". I was interested, he asked for videos and questions.

 

[DeLux]

Probably why I said to PM me

and I know who you are Big D, I've been following you since your MarioMaster days >_>

 

[| Big D |]

Those days never happened...

Taking it to PMs now.

On the subject of the thread, thank you for go through all the effort to compile this data. Just looking at it it's immense. It's interesting to know what CGs have the longest window for a re-grab and a whole bunch of other cool data.