Stuff that most of us know but which isn't really explained anywhere

Battlecow

Play to Win
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
8,746
Location
Chicago
#1
So I've been thinking, and it seems to me that there are a number of things that everyone kind of knows, but which aren't codified or explained anywhere. They'd benefit from certainty and explanation, and should be written down so that scrubs realize them. I'm talking about stuff like how-

-Ground attacks clash with ground attacks, but air/ground means you both hit each other, as does air/air. Projectiles, however, clash with air and ground.

- This one I'm unsure of how to explain, but aren't there two types of knockback? Like, set knockback and variable knockback? You notice this most when you adjust the damage setting and throws and set KB attacks (shine, DKDownB, DKUpB, Yoshi's Utilt, etc.) experience tremendous shifts in power, while other attacks only find that kind of shift after percent has been dealt. I might be wrong about that, but something's going on there.

Those are the only ones I can think of, but there's more. What do you guys think? Do you have anything to add? Is this a dumb idea?
 
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
2,366
Location
Northern VA, USA
#3
Is Fox's shine actually set? I feel like it's set + very very low variable * damage.

Extra random one: Any Samus non-fully charged shot will cancel out another non-fully charged shot (no matter how charged it is, as long as it isn't full), but a fully-charged shot will "eat" any non-fully charged shot.
 

asianaussie

Smash Debater
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
9,343
Location
Sayonara Memories
#4
probably a multiplier involved in damage change (lol)

think of it as adding a x2 multiplier to a function/equation. Set knockback ones start high (eg. a y-value of 5 gets multiplied to 10), while non-set ones like a N-Air start low (eg. a y-value of 1 is only multiplied to 2)
 

Battlecow

Play to Win
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
8,746
Location
Chicago
#5
Really? just went into training mode and flower'd jiggs up to 999%. No discernible difference in KB.

Oh, and doesn't variable/set KB affect heavies/lightweights differently? Or is that just my imagination?
 
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
#6
Well, they get hit at different distances and trajectories, but that's just because weight/falling speed is factored in, just like any other move.
 

th3kuzinator

Smash Debater
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Messages
3,620
Location
Winning
#7
This same thing happens with Dk's punch.

You ever notice that you can charge it to a half second before full and the knockback it gives is like 1/2 of when it is actually full.
 

ballin4life

Smash Debater
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
#8
Set knockback moves:

1st hit of Fox uair
Yoshi utilt
Yoshi dtilt
Ness dtilt?
A bunch of projectiles (fox laser/ness PK Fire/ness PK thunder/mario or luigi fireballs/Link bombs?/Samus bomb?)
random B moves (Fox shine/Yoshi's and Kirby's swallows/Kirby's cutter?/mario tornado?/DK ground pound/samus screw attack/jiggs sing)
some rapid A moves probably

any others?

And yes set knockback is relative to the opponent's weight/floatiness. The only difference is that it always hits for the same knockback on a given character.
 

th3kuzinator

Smash Debater
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Messages
3,620
Location
Winning
#9
Ness' dtilt is not constant.

I feel like luigi's and mario's dair have constant knockback. It would make sense to me.
fox's low angled ftilt is constant
Luigi's tant is constant
Mario's last hit in his downb is constant
Luigi's not sweetspotted upb is constant
DK Upb is constant
Samus uair is constant
First two hits in Link's usmash?
 
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Messages
832
Location
Melbourne
#10
Not constant:
ness pk thunder 1 - see Tas pk thunder cancel combo on pikachu
same with samus bomb -
same with link bombs - see bomb recovery high %
Falcon rapid A seems to vary slightly, after 300% it doesn't combo against the wall/combo meter resets
 

th3kuzinator

Smash Debater
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Messages
3,620
Location
Winning
#12
I feel mario's downb throws people out at a ridiculously low level when used at high percents over the egde in the air.

Are you sure that all the hits are constant?

I forgot about kirby uair.

Can anyone confirm first two hits of link usmash?
 

asianaussie

Smash Debater
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
9,343
Location
Sayonara Memories
#13
From my experience they certainly seem to be fixed, and I main Link.

The number of times the second hit catches someone on a platform while the third doesn't...oh, bad times...
 

Battlecow

Play to Win
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
8,746
Location
Chicago
#14
none of those projectiles- bombs, fireballs, etc.- have set KB (except for lasers). I don't think any jabs have set KB either, although maybe there are one or two that do.

fox's shine, of course, and DK's running attack. Kirby's Neutral B spit-out (sort of).

So are throws mostly "static" Knockback? Is that why they get so awesome in 200%?
 

Stormcrow2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Messages
180
Location
Northern IL, USA
#16
Set knockback moves:

1st hit of Fox uair
Yoshi utilt
Yoshi dtilt
Ness dtilt?
A bunch of projectiles (fox laser/ness PK Fire/ness PK thunder/mario or luigi fireballs/Link bombs?/Samus bomb?)
random B moves (Fox shine/Yoshi's and Kirby's swallows/Kirby's cutter?/mario tornado?/DK ground pound/samus screw attack/jiggs sing)
some rapid A moves probably

any others?

And yes set knockback is relative to the opponent's weight/floatiness. The only difference is that it always hits for the same knockback on a given character.
Ness's projectiles both are not set knockback.

Like A$ said, think of it like a simple equation, I'll make this simple:
y = mx + b 'y'is total knockback, what you're solving for. 'm' is your variable knockback, 'x' is the attack, and 'b' is the constant knockback (what it would do at 0% damage)

Basically, there are 3 types of attacks. Some that have a set knockback only, like kirby's uair, but there are very few of these. Then there are ones with very low variable knockback, such as ness's projectiles, kirby's dair, yoshi's dair, mario's dair, etc. meaning, you'll notice the knockback is more at high percentages, but not enough to kill them at even a ridiculous % like 400. Then the rest of the attacks in the game I guess you could call power attacks, those that have a high variable knockback (spikes, smash attacks, etc.).

I'm not sure how many attacks (if any) fall in the middle of very low variable to high variable knockback, but it's probably not a whole. If someone wanted to make a chart of all attacks and their knockback type that would be cool, but it might be a lot easier just to name all of the attacks that are set knockback, and then name the ones that have a very low variable, such as ness's projectiles, or many characters' tilts.
 
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
#17
Tell me if I missed any.

All get-up attacks
All ledge attacks

Luigi:
Dash Attack
D-Air
Weak Up-B
Taunt

Mario:
D-Air
Down-B
All but last hit of Up-B

Donkey Kong (F-Throw grab release isn't constant lol):
Dash Attack
All but last weak hit of Up-B
Down-B

Link:
First two hits of U-Smash

Samus:
U-Air
Up-B

Falcon:
None

Ness (his D-Tilt causes people to fall at like 900%+ lol):
All hits of Neutral-B but the initial

Yoshi:
U-Tilt
D-Tilt
Neutral-B (If that counts)
Down-B landing stars

Kirby:
U-Air
All but last aerial hit of F-Air
Landing hit of F-Air/N-Air/D-Air
Neutral-B copy/spit-out/release (if those count)
Rising and falling hit of Up-B (not the shockwave)
Fox's Neutral-B
All hits of Ness's Neutral-B but the initial
Yoshi's Neutral-B

Fox:
Down-angled F-Tilt
First hit U-Air
D-Air
Neutral-B
Down-B

Pikachu:
F-Air (Not the uncanceled landing hit)

Jigglypuff:
D-Air (Not the uncanceled landing hit)
 
Last edited:

Blade689

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
285
Location
Emeryville
#20
Jigglypuff doesn't die from a shield breaker if there is a roof that stops people from going through it. Ex: hyrule's hut, the bottom of the roof in peach's castle, the inside the door of safforn, and the under left side of mushroom kingdom...... don't know how useful that is.... but it is a lesser known thing.
 

#HBC | ѕoup

The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
6,583
#23
Not sure if this was posted before but red shells have a disjointed hitbox that is constant throughout the time it is thrown and it is used.
 

Fynal

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
240
#26
so does a set knockback move have set hitstun? i would assume not, that thats always based on damage
 
Top