Stop taking the elitist way of thinking.

[o-Serin-o]

Day by day, I lurk most boards to see if they have anything recent or new to tell others. When I look at ideas posted, unless it's a well-known player, it gets shunned off like a leper trying to get along with a regular crowd. There is nothing wrong with a suggestion and other boards need to realize that.

Take a move others find useless (except Mario's dtilt... <_<) and experiment with it. Find something you like, test it, get a video of it and show it to the rest of the boards. If you have done all of that, nobody should have the right to blatantly say it's a stupid idea. Having good proof of it's access in a match would be even more helpful to whatever you are trying to rethink.

Now I know people would rather listen to the advice of people that have gone through the matchup and etc, but if someone else has an idea and legitimately puts it on the table, give it a chance. Even if a highly capable player considers it useless, try to prove him wrong. Nobody will hate you for it.

On the other hand, don't just take the idea of an elitist and say "Best idea ever" without thoroughly testing it. Everybody is human and will make a mistake. If it's right, it's right, but if it's wrong, don't be afraid to testify its well-being as a technique or anything else. Every move that a character has can be used efficiently, it just has yet to be found (except Mario's dtilt. >_>)

Low tier characters, this goes especially for you. Use a seemingly useless move and find a use for it. Samus's usmash or Jigglypuff's Sing (I don't really know if it's considered useless correct me if I'm wrong) can all be used to a certain extent. Try an ACA and try it into a useless move. Anything to up it's usefulness and make that move more viable in combat.

Take a move and brainstorm it here. If anyone wants to put up a suggestion, just tell me.

 

[_Phloat_]

Well, I agree...

But you have to realize, some of these ideas are downright awful and obviously untested.


Or just rehashed ideas typed differently. After answering the millionth question that could have been answered if people actually read the stickies, its hard NOT to be a little hostile to the 1,000,001th guy to say that theres a better way to play your character.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Which is why I say:

Find something you like, test it, get a video of it and show it to the rest of the boards.

Although it should be edited a bit... >_>

EDIT: It should be. I needs show show it's importance in competitive play.

 

[CRASHiC]

lol what are you, young black Susa?
Susa made this exact thread about 2 months ago.

Regardless, true words are true words.
Let's take pivot walking, despite being used by people like Susa and Mikehaze, many in the thread still claimed it was useless. I want you to imagine for a second if Wavedashing was never introduced into Melee metagame, and someone just found it yesterday. Even if it was recognized for having potential, it would take some time to get worked into the metagame because people wouldn't see the immediate use that it has now. If you can't wavedash and L cancel in Melee, you lose. You need those techniques to be on par with your opponent. The same can be (possibly) applied to the pivot walk, or another technique you might come across. It might seem unnecessary, but that's only because it is unnecessary in today's game.
If you want an example of a board who tests every possible thing thrown at them, go look at the Lucario boards, though beware, they have some extreme debates in there.

 

[Captain L]

In wifi matches I've had on P.I.'s faux finder, I've been using Pikachu's skull bash offensively lately and it actually hasn't failed that badly. Now of course a fair bit of the success likely comes from wifi lag or just from being up against worse than average players, but I still think that move could have at least a bit of potential for KOing or setting up for an edge guard. It has really good knockback even when it's not completely charged.

 

[Raimundo]

-_- I got banned...

@CRASHiC - That seems right, but again, I feel it should be put into competitive play before it is talked about correctly.

 

[Coney]

yeah, people should take ideas more seriously. i've been saying for months that DDD's upB out of shield is a great spacing tool.

 

[Kataefi]

Wow I totally agree with everything you said (the OP I mean) Unfortunately you do get the occasional lost cause though >.> - someone who happens to be very stubborn or just refuses other opinions... I'm finding that this type of thinking just kills a lot of good discussion.

 

[Raimundo]

Thank yees

EDIT: CRASHiC, if I had known/remembered that SuSa made this a good 2 months ago, I wouldn't have made this...

I have bad memory.


EDIT2: Getting off this before I get IP banned >_>

 

[CRASHiC]

yeah, people should take ideas more seriously. i've been saying for months that DDD's upB out of shield is a great spacing tool.

Really? Explain your self Coney

 

[Cold Fusion]

or Jigglypuff's Sing (I don't really know if it's considered useless correct me if I'm wrong)

It is not completely useless, but there really is not much reason to use it. It can be ledge canceled, which might put an unsuspecting foe to sleep.

 

[Demp]

Day by day, I lurk most boards to see if they have anything recent or new to tell others. When I look at ideas posted, unless it's a well-known player, it gets shunned off like a leper trying to get along with a regular crowd. There is nothing wrong with a suggestion and other boards need to realize that.

Take a move others find useless (except Mario's dtilt... <_<) and experiment with it. Find something you like, test it, get a video of it and show it to the rest of the boards. If you have done all of that, nobody should have the right to blatantly say it's a stupid idea. Having good proof of it's access in a match would be even more helpful to whatever you are trying to rethink.

Now I know people would rather listen to the advice of people that have gone through the matchup and etc, but if someone else has an idea and legitimately puts it on the table, give it a chance. Even if a highly capable player considers it useless, try to prove him wrong. Nobody will hate you for it.

On the other hand, don't just take the idea of an elitist and say "Best idea ever" without thoroughly testing it. Everybody is human and will make a mistake. If it's right, it's right, but if it's wrong, don't be afraid to testify its well-being as a technique or anything else. Every move that a character has can be used efficiently, it just has yet to be found (except Mario's dtilt. >_>)

Low tier characters, this goes especially for you. Use a seemingly useless move and find a use for it. Samus's usmash or Jigglypuff's Sing (I don't really know if it's considered useless correct me if I'm wrong) can all be used to a certain extent. Try an ACA and try it into a useless move. Anything to up it's usefulness and make that move more viable in combat.

Take a move and brainstorm it here. If anyone wants to put up a suggestion, just tell me.

10/10

10/10's

 

[saviorslegacy]

I am doing this.
I am experimenting the **** out of Sheik. One thing leads to another and another and another.
I have found footstools (sigh, not the best), locks, decay combos, Needle tech, Vanish things that Tristan found a year go, new ledge play, use's for EVERY (not almost every) move, worked out kinks in the chain jacket, found pivot walk stuff for her (even though I didn't find pivot walking, I found a lot of applications) and now I'm working on another sliding technique for her.

I'm also making an in depth video guide for her as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbe19spjBzk


People, you don't have to do things with an entire forum.
When I started working with Sheik I was very n00by.
I barely new anything but I wanted to help. So I started with one thing and that was decay.
I had basically one friend (two including <3).
I was pretty much an annoyance to everyone.
As I continued I slowly made some friends and when I focused onto what really helped I became accepted.

My point is don't give up. Keep trying no matter what. I had one person to share my thoughts with and that was Tristan (<3 some too), and he wasn't there all of the time.
That means that I done a lot by myself.


My point is, you don't need an army of people helping you. One is nice but you is plenty. All you need is creative thinking.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Glad to see this is of good work.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If you want an example of a board who tests every possible thing thrown at them, go look at the Lucario boards, though beware, they have some extreme debates in there.

I hate to say it, but it's true.

;_;

 

[saviorslegacy]

I hate to say it, but it's true.

;_;

Wait, extreme debates as in flame wars?

 

[LoganW]

l I want you to imagine for a second if Wavedashing was never introduced into Melee metagame, and someone just found it yesterday. Even if it was recognized for having potential, it would take some time to get worked into the metagame because people wouldn't see the immediate use that it has now. If you can't wavedash and L cancel in Melee, you lose. You need those techniques to be on par with your opponent. The same can be (possibly) applied to the pivot walk, or another technique you might come across. It might seem unnecessary, but that's only because it is unnecessary in today's game.
If you want an example of a board who tests every possible thing thrown at them, go look at the Lucario boards, though beware, they have some extreme debates in there.

ah but we can wavedash instead of spinning in circles lol

 

[saviorslegacy]

ah but we can wavedash instead of spinning in circles lol

At the core they are the same thing.


What is a Wavedash?
A: It is taking momentum of the jump and canceling it into the stage. Everyone knows when you have left over momentum in Smash that it results in a slide.

What is a Pivot/Boost/Doop Walk?
A: It is a spin that cause's an increase in momentum.
Everyone knows that in Smash if you have left over momentum it results in a slide.


Same difference

 

[Nidtendofreak]

ah but we can wavedash instead of spinning in circles lol

Back to living underneath your Melee Bridge please. This is Brawl, not Melee. Stop posting to bash Brawl/Up Melee every chance you get. Because it's getting tiring by this point.

And some characters simply don't have much to experiment with anymore. G&W, Ike, Bowser anyone? Sure, new things could be found. But it's not exactly likely, and often it's just repeats of old stuff. Which leads to annoyance, which leads to Elitism.

 

[Noobicidal]

Samus's usmash or Jigglypuff's Sing (I don't really know if it's considered useless correct me if I'm wrong) can all be used to a certain extent

Sing is useless in the traditional aspect due to Puff only getting a frame advantage after 200% damage, but it's not entirely bad. Sing can be ledge-canceled, extends her ledge grab range, and it can put opponents to sleep on the edge.

Oh yeah, we can use it to jump infinitely off-stage.

 

[Cold Fusion]

Oh yeah, we can use it to jump infinitely off-stage.

Super planking!

 

[LoganW]

At the core they are the same thing.


What is a Wavedash?
A: It is taking momentum of the jump and canceling it into the stage. Everyone knows when you have left over momentum in Smash that it results in a slide.

What is a Pivot/Boost/Doop Walk?
A: It is a spin that cause's an increase in momentum.
Everyone knows that in Smash if you have left over momentum it results in a slide.


Same difference

wavedash is momentum of the airdodge not the jump and they're not the same in any way

 

[saviorslegacy]

wavedash is momentum of the airdodge not the jump and they're not the same in any way

Owell, it is still a momentum boost.


Explain to me in Smash physics how they differ.

 

[CRASHiC]

The applications are the same.

Wavedashing is used for mindgames, spacing, and some minor manuverability. The same can be said for the pivot walk.

Super planking!

YESZ! Seriously, DMG should pick up Jigglypuff.

 

[Browny]

going by your join date, im going to assume that is actually when you started reading SWF.

you may have only seen threads about certain moves once, or maybe never.

everyone else has seen them like 5+ times. it gets a little annoying having to tell people again and again that sonics sideb is not the exact same as downb etc.

 

[SuSa]

Assuming that was a reply to the OP, he made a new account for his new name. Raimundo (which is a poster in this very thread) was hist first account. Which IIRC was in 08?

 

[LoganW]

Wavedashing is used for mindgames, spacing, and some minor manuverability. The same can be said for the pivot walk.

LUIGI says hi
can you waveland w/ a pivot walk
can you jump up and slide across platforms w/ pivot walk?
can ledgehog w/ pivot walk?
I can see them being used for somewhat similar things although I don't see pivot walking ever becoming the "next wavedash"

 

[Coney]

Really? Explain your self Coney

i can't, don't want any other DDD players stealing my stuff. but it'll become infamous soon enough

you'll see

you'll all see

 

[CRASHiC]

LUIGI says hi

Luigi also benefits HUGELY from the pivot walk here cause of his huge slide and getting to approach with his forward smash, and his ability to reverse the momentum at any time with his crawl dash. I wuv it. :3

can ledgehog w/ pivot walk?

We don't need to. Autoledge canceling.

I can see them being used for somewhat similar things although I don't see pivot walking ever becoming the "next wavedash"

I think you are overrating the wavedash a bit. L canceling is far more important. But this has one thing over the wavedash, no tripping. Marth can essentially dash now with no fear of tripping at all.

@coney

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wait, extreme debates as in flame wars?

No, the we research and test anything part.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Assuming that was a reply to the OP, he made a new account for his new name. Raimundo (which is a poster in this very thread) was hist first account. Which IIRC was in 08?

*wrong person

LUIGI says hi
hi
can you waveland w/ a pivot walk
*craqwalk
can you jump up and slide across platforms w/ pivot walk?
Not everyone can but you can Crzqwalk onto a platform.
Not only that, WDing on a platform is pretty much useless.
can ledgehog w/ pivot walk?
no need to
I can see them being used for somewhat similar things although I don't see pivot walking ever becoming the "next wavedash"

in red

When I look at a AT I don't look at how it can be countered or how it is situational or anything like that. I look at one thing and one thing ONLY, "how it can be useful".
I let everyone else share how it can be countered and stuff.

This AT is HUGE!
I wish more people would open their eye's to it. If they don't then I'll use it and open their eye's for them.
This is a WHOLE new way to space. The best part is sliding attacks. The ability to attack and approach at the same time is what makes combo's. Boost Walking offers this to us.

you'll all see

Uh oh, a standing infinite on everyone.
We must ban... this user before we need to ban his character.

I think you are overrating the wavedash a bit. L canceling is far more important. But this has one thing over the wavedash, no tripping. Marth can essentially dash now with no fear of tripping at all.

OMG, if L canceling was in Brawl I would SO be afraid of Ike.
A canceled Fair wall with a canceled Nair when you got close would be a ***** to get through!
Oh, and it would all be super disjointed.

That would make him practically high/top tier (he still has the recovery problem) because he could safely pressure anything and force you to get closer. When you do get closer you would be in his palm since Nair is a combo starter and bloody fast. That and he has his jab/grab/pivot grab.

 

[LoganW]

I think you are overrating the wavedash a bit. L canceling is far more important. But this has one thing over the wavedash, no tripping. Marth can essentially dash now with no fear of tripping at all.

:

NO tripping. You could wavedash and trip lol how insightful. I'm saying that pivot walk is not going to become the new wavedash IMO. I don't care if it doea or not and what does l cancelling have to do w/ anything??? I know it's important but has nothing to do with this thread and you can't do it in brawl anyway so what are you talking about?
EDIT: saviors are you kidding me wavedashing on platform is great for platform usage, movement, mindgames, techchasing and many other things. You play brawl and obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Also no such thing as "combos" in brawl

 

[CRASHiC]

NO tripping. You could wavedash and trip lol how insightful. I'm saying that pivot walk is not going to become the new wavedash IMO. I don't care if it doea or not and what does l cancelling have to do w/ anything??? I know it's important but has nothing to do with this thread and you can't do it in brawl anyway so what are you talking about?
EDIT: saviors are you kidding me wavedashing on platform is great for platform usage, movement, mindgames, techchasing and many other things. You play brawl and obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Also no such thing as "combos" in brawl

1. L canceling is regarded as far more important.
2. Wavedashign is regarded as not nearly as important.
3. the point was, it gives great maneuverability and speed without the fear of tripping.
4. There are some combos in Brawl, and no, they aren't just one move over and over as ADHD exemplified at SNES. Wario's combos are very annoying as well.
5. why are you always in Brawl threads?

 

[Gr1mmy]

I'd like to point out that LoganW mains Metaknight as shown by the little picture in the bottom left.


Wtf...

 

[CRASHiC]

That's just him trolling.
He doesn't play Brawl.
He mains Jigglypuff in Melee, which like all Puffs, he's a megatroll.

 

[Gr1mmy]

Zzzzz gotta pop the bubble.

 

[LoganW]

i wasn't trollin. I said I don't think this new techinique will be like the wavedash IMO. I'm entitled to my opinion. What makes you think I main jigglypuff? Also please explain to me what l-canecelling has to do w/ this. It may be regarded as more important because of shffl but it's not more important than wavedashing w/ all characters. And please answer that question because sometimes you only respond to certain points.

 

[Tristan_win]

Also no such thing as "combos" in brawl

If you’re going to put someone down it might be wise to be vague on some things so someone like me doesn’t come along and laugh at you as it's a proven fact that there are combos in brawl. There's just no 1 to 2 second of stun combos like Captain Falcon Dair into Knee. There are however at least for sheik true combos that allow her to be able to land all of her tilts, smashes, and almost all of her aerials after her combo starter the Ftilt some of which can be true combo that can kill or can span well into the 3+ hits if not both.

If a multiple hitting true combo that can kill or set up for a gimp does not count as a combo then I don't know what is and if you say something like "Well only sheik has these" all I have to say is

..Exactly, only sheik can true combo reliably on Brawl, what a **** shame that is.

 

[saviorslegacy]

saviors are you kidding me wavedashing on platform is great for platform usage, movement, mindgames, techchasing and many other things. You play brawl and obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Also no such thing as "combos" in brawl

IMO, you want to utilize platforms as traps. Not as combo tools, unless you can Dair cancel onto them.
WDing on a platform is just a fancy show. I guess it might help approaching but it is safer to remain below the enemy. Getting on a platform puts you in a danger zone.
Never use the term mind games BTW.
Tech chasing deals with a foe rolling on the ground ONLY! Think Falco's D-Throw in Melee (or at least I think it was a tech chase). Platforms are in the air and not really valid cuz you rarely get grabbed up there. If you do however prepare for an infinite.
You might be think of normal chasing. In which case this could be useful as a FSmash set up. Most of the time you would just go for another airial though.
Nothing else BTW.

There are combo's in Brawl. Sheik and Diddy are perfect example's.
JUST because you don't have insane hit stun does not mean that nothing combo's.


Oh, may I request that this bickering stop. You don't understand the physics here.
All you are gonna do is cause hate your way and maybe get the thread closed. You aren't gonna win the argument. Plz take my advice, I was in your shoe's last year (and in some case's shorter than that). The only thing that will come of this is a harder time for you.


:EDIT:

only sheik can true combo reliably on Brawl, what a **** shame that is.

epic

 

[Kewkky]

Logan, before stating things about a game that is SO much different than the one you play, I suggest LEARNING about it, and not just poking with one-hit attacks... Lots of characters have guaranteed combos, ranging from multiple chains of the same attack (sheik's ftilt, kirby's utilt, many character's crouch-cancelled jabs...), to multiple chains of different attacks (Practically ZSS's metagame, Kirby's fthrow>uair>reverse utilt>bair on heavies at very low %s, Falco's silent laser>Gatling Combo [dash attack+buffered usmash]...)... So don't come here stating there are no combos in Brawl.

That's just trolling.