Stealing the Fight - Carmen Sandiego for Smash?

AlRex

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#1
This thread is to support Carmen Sandiego, the ex-secret-agent-turned-globetrotting thief of the synonymous series (though it usually asks “Where in [X] is Carmen Sandiego?”)
carmen-crouch.png

“...are you for real?”
Sure. Carmen Sandiego is a video game character, after all, and she’s been on Nintendo consoles before, even, with titles on the NES, SNES, GameCube, DS, and Wii.


“But (hypothetically), who in the world is Carmen Sandiego?”
Her main origin is in a series of educational computer games, starting with “Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?” In most versions, the conceit is that you’re a detective working for an organization known as ACME, assigned by the chief to track down Carmen Sandiego, an ex-agent turned thief who now runs a criminal organization known as VILE, going around stealing various artifacts from around the world. It’s your job to find the criminals and capture them, as well as return the artifacts, through a series of questions leading you to the right answers, eventually tracking down and finding Carmen herself...well, usually a body-double. She seems to get away almost all the time. The true aim is to teach you geography, but they manage to make it feel like a fun detective adventure. Eventually this concept also reaches out to world history (involving time travel), outer space (space travel), language (how?), math (HOW?), and North Dakota (how overly specific).


“So she’s from an educational game series not really centered around direct action. How in the world could she fight?”
I already said, she’s an ex-secret-agent-turned-thief, and in many of the in-game cutscenes, as well as her TV shows, she’s been shown using a wide variety of gadgets and vehicles to aid her in her goals. What’s more, is that since she’s mostly in it for the chase, rather than direct confrontation, and the fact that her series is for children, she’s a relatively non-violent criminal as well. More abstract and/or non-combative characters, such as Mr. Game & Watch, Duck Hunt, ROB,Wii Fit Trainer, Villager and even Pac-Man as far as third parties go, have been included as playable fighters, and she at least has her training, gadgets, and items she has stolen to extrapolate from.


“Okay, but is this a relevant series? Or a popular enough one?”
The last series entry for the games was in 2015, but there is also the Netflix series currently available. More to the point, there are at least 20+ games in the series, with some being variations on “Where in the World/Where in Time”, in addition to having a cartoon, two game shows, and the aforementioned new series in development, as well as a comic published by DC. There’s also a surprising amount of fanart and cosplay of her, as well as parody videos online (many of these pair her with Waldo, another elusive character popular in the 90’s), proving that she is well-remembered and struck a chord with a good chunk of people. She has a distinct appearance, personality, and backstory that people seem to enjoy, which is surprising for an edutainment game character, and if I had to guess, she’s on the same level of popularity/notability as something like Kid Icarus or StarFox, maybe?


“Okay, but there have to be drawbacks.”
Sadly, yes. Mainly, I do not know if many/any of her games were published in Japan (although I did find in my research: a French Carmen Sandiego game and also that Konami developed the NES/SNES games), meaning that she probably isn’t much in the radar over there. Not to mention that I’m unsure if the Learning Company itself would sign off on putting her in a fighting game, even one as unrealistic and over-the-top as Smash, more so because I don’t see that as seeming like a big priority for them Besides that, there’s the fact that she’s more of a vague/distant antagonist, purposefully, but what that means is that you aren’t ever controlling her, despite her being the main recurring character of her series. This would make envisioning her more difficult. Plus she’s nowhere near the most popular third party request, and I fully acknowledge her unlikelihood, but I’d like to say she makes more sense than one would initially think. I thought of more pros, than cons, for one thing, so you may be able to see that there is at least a decent case for her as a playable character.


Some Gadgets (Potential for moveset)
-Grappling Hook
-Smoke screen
-Sleeping gas bombs
-Hacking mini-tool [disguised as a compact make-up kit]
-Miniaturized cutting tool
-Extendable pole in her shoe’s heel
-Rocket-powered, winged glider hidden in her coat


List of Things She’s Stolen (Either for moveset potential, possibly, or for your own reading amusement/amazement)
https://q99.livejournal.com/485597.html


Possible Moveset
Just Specials right now...
B: Laser Cutter - A short ranged laser beam that can be precisely aimed and angled at a foe, which can rack up multiple hits of damage. Like Bowser's Fire Breath, could potentially lose power over time to prevent the incentive to spam it.
Up-B: Rocket Glider - Simply shoots upward with a rocket glider, could be angled in several directions diagonally before going off.
Side-B: Gas Grenades - These could work like Snakes, but with more of an emphasis on stunning foes rather than heavy damage, potentially also causing them to fall asleep like Jigglypuff, leaving them open for a follow-up attack from Carmen.
Down-B: Thievery - Considering this is one of the things she's most known for, it should be included. However, my only thought for this move is to make it like Villager/Isabelle's Pocket move, possibly combined with a counter, but that feels like an unoriginal way to go about it.


She could also use a grapple gun for Grabs and a Tether Recovery, as well. My only thoughts for the Final Smash are that Carmen could disappear, then potentially steal the entire stage they're fighting on, but I have no clue how to actually work that.

So, to summarize...
Pros
+Long-running video game series
+Outside media exposure (TV shows and comics and the like) making her even more well-known
+Has appeared on multiple Nintendo consoles (NES, SNES, GameCube, Nintendo DS, and Wii)
+Has fighting experience and skills in character as a secret agent/thief
+Is the main recurring character of her series
+Has fighting abilities that generally keep within the E/E10 range
+/-Not from a genre that one would expect to crossover into a fighting game


Cons
-Not really sure if she’s known in Japan
-Neither company (Nintendo or the Learning Company) seem like they’d see it as a priority
-Not a playable character
-Not heavily requested
-Moveset isn’t as easy to lay out just from looking at the kind of games she's in
-Just to reiterate: basically not a character on anyone's radar, from multiple angles, which heavily works against her.
(Then again, I've seen a thread here for the Question Block from Mario, so this isn't the strangest thread I've seen)
+/-Not from a genre that one would expect to crossover into a fighting game


Supporters
-Me
-SneakyLink
-KatKit
-MacDaddyNook
-Ridley_Prime
-GKMLTTSB
 
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Wario Wario Wario

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#2
if there's gonna be any edutainment rep, it's gotta be her. (it's debatable if Kawashima would classify as an edutainment rep) - a female villain is long overdue for Smash.

I doubt she's that popular in Japan through.

an Oregon Trail stage would be cool too, but being based on western history I very much doubt it has much of a following in the east either.
 

AlRex

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#3
if there's gonna be any edutainment rep, it's gotta be her. (it's debatable if Kawashima would classify as an edutainment rep) - a female villain is long overdue for Smash.

I doubt she's that popular in Japan through.

an Oregon Trail stage would be cool too, but being based on western history I very much doubt it has much of a following in the east either.
I basically agree with all of this. I'd assume Carmen has a better shot in some weird fan-game, if anything, and she'd be worth including in going over video game history as a whole.
 
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#4
I randomly thought about this the other day and thought "this needs to happen".

So plus one supporter.
 

zferolie

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#5
Sign me up. Would be a fun character, andnyes the game was first even before the gameshow i beleive, so she counts.

Would she use her new netflix look ot her classic look though?
 

KatKit

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#6
Holy cow, it does exist! In honor of the new season, I'm bumping this. Carmen Sandiego is my biggest pipe dream. Her games somehow managed to be fun during a time when most early computer games simply weren't. Aside from that, her games are one of the rare 'Edutainment' games that don't suck in general; they've sold millions of them for a reason. She's a pioneer for the genre and the prime example. She's also appeared on a few Nintendo consoles, too! All of this, and she has a bunch of educational TV shows that are way better than they have any right to be. She's also Latina like me, so yay.


I mentioned it in a different thread, but Carmen Sandiego is such a great thief that she can do things like casually steal all of the fish from half of Lake Titicaca. They can incorporate this in her moveset by letting her do something hilariously ridiculous like being able to steal a stage platform or something. Realistically, she should at least be able to take items from other characters by walking pass them.
 
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#7
One question. Do we get a new remix by Rockapella?

Jokes aside, Carmen is certainly a worthy contender as far as western characters are concerned. She's been in gaming since '85 (and yes, she did first appear in a PC game series before adapted to other media, so she does qualify) and is practically the face of her genre much like Ryu and Cloud/Hero, so legacy isn't an issue. It'd be interesting since her series doesn't have an actual player character, or even an avatar, so she'd be the first series to get the antagonist/NPC as the fighter.

Personally, I'd love if they found a way to keep her face/eyes obscured by her hat/hair on her model like the older artwork of her. I makes her looks more mysterious and it's a pretty cool look.

As a fighter, I could see her having some similarities with Joker. Her trailer could even feature Joker and the Phantom Thieves in a heist only to find that she has beaten them to the treasure.

I mentioned it in a different thread, but Carmen Sandiego is such a great thief that she can do things like casually steal all of the fish from half of Lake Titicaca. They can incorporate this in her moveset by letting her do something hilariously ridiculous like being able to steal a stage platform or something. Realistically, she should at least be able to take items from other characters by walking pass them.
I like this idea for a passive trait for her. It could work where every time she comes in contact (including hitting with or being hit by physical attacks) with an opponent, she would have a 1/5 chance to steal from that character (provided she isn't holding something of her own at the time). She'd pocket the contraband like Villager/Isabelle so it wouldn't disrupt her player and the item in question could be called out at will by her player to use. Obviously, held items would be something she could take, but since she also steals nonsensical stuff in her games, it'd be funny if she could also swipe charged/stored projectiles from those that can store one (:ultsamus::ultdarksamus::ultpacman::ultpiranha::ultgunner::ulthero::ultlucario::ultmewtwo::ultwiifittrainer::ultwiifittrainerm::ultrobin::ultrobinf::ultsquirtle::ultmario::ultgnw:) or even buffs/status effects from the target as well (namely :ulthero::ultwiifittrainer::ultwiifittrainerm::ultincineroar::ultshulk:)
 

AlRex

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#8
I hadn't checked on this for a bit, but it's nice to see the discussion here. Adding some supporters!

As for the matter of the classic look or the modern Netflix look, you could always make them both alts. Although I do also like MacDaddyNook MacDaddyNook 's idea of how to present Carmen, as well.
 
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OrpheusTelos

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#9
I don't have much exposure to Carmen outside of hearing her show referenced a few times, but I recently decided to give the Netflix series a watch and found it enjoyable, so I'd honestly be on board with her as a dark horse character. Honestly if her trailer doesn't have Joker involved somehow, that would be such a missed opportunity
 

Ridley_Prime

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#10
Suppose I can be added as a supporter here as well. While I never got to see much of the original cartoon, I did have some decent firsthand exposure to some of her 90's PC games, like Where in the World, and Great Chase Through Time, the latter of which I beat the hell out of as a kid, as it made learning history quite fun. Carmen Sandiego has always been an educational series in part, but it made learning things fun when it was done well.

The Netflix show is pretty much a reboot and alternate take on a younger version of the titular character, but like it for what it is.
 

KatKit

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#11
Keep in mind I haven't completed the second season yet, but I'm pretty sure that Netflix Carmen is eventually going to join A.C.M.E., get bored with it, steal V.I.L.E., and reform it. So by the end of the series, she's going to... well, pull a classic Carmen Sandiego and casually steal Mount Rushmore or something just because she can. This is a prequel/reboot, but I think they'll end up incorporating some of her old backstory as the show progresses.

More on topic, I'm down if they somehow got Rita Moreno to voice her in Smash. She is an absolute legend.
 
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Ridley_Prime

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#12
Having finished season 2, can say you’re right on point. The S2 ending even gives her a reason to resent ACME as much as VILE, so can see what you said eventually happening.

On that note, Shadowsan is a cool supporting character, and glad he’s voiced by the one who does Hanzo from Overwatch.
 

KatKit

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#13
Okay, so I was on season 2 episode 3 when I made my last post, but now I'm on episode 8 (I only have two left!). So far, my theory seems possible for season 3 or beyond, although I wouldn't mind if Carmen ended up becoming a full on anti-hero instead of an anti-villain by the end of the series. It's possible, but she's still a little impulsive/unpredictable at times. Regardless, her heart is usually in the right place. If/when Zach and Ivy become A.C.M.E. recruits, I can imagine the twins sticking around while Carmen defects. Although she isn't consistently portrayed the exact same way throughout the franchise, a common element involves her joining then later defecting A.C.M.E. It'll be interesting to see her old crew try to catch Carmen (and how skilled they'd become with proper training), and the friendly rivalry between them.

And, yeah... Dado-san (I like this nickname) is cool. I'm glad they fleshed him out as much as they did, and it's interesting to see how the antagonists react to him and his chemistry with the main characters.

I'll try to come up with a moveset that incorporates every version of Carmen. Each individual game/show has enough material to work with, but combining them will be insane.
 
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#14
I couldn't get into the Netflix show myself. I'm really not fond of the "let's make the antagonist good now" direction (this is also why I can't stand the live action Malificent movies). I just like her as the cocky "always one step ahead" criminal mastermind who toys with the player/detectives, sometimes a fun bad guy is just better being bad.
 

KatKit

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#16
So much can happen in two episodes, good Lord! That season 2 ending was nuts. I love that backstory involving her parents. They dropped all that info and it somehow led to more questions than answers. Chase is more determined than ever to catch La Femme Rouge, and ACME is now fully on board with his obsession. They also showed what appeared to be part of her old signature outfit (that yellow scarf).

I couldn't get into the Netflix show myself. I'm really not fond of the "let's make the antagonist good now" direction (this is also why I can't stand the live action Malificent movies). I just like her as the cocky "always one step ahead" criminal mastermind who toys with the player/detectives, sometimes a fun bad guy is just better being bad.
Netflix Carmen is rather young (16 in flashbacks and 20 in the present), and she's never been portrayed as villainous in her youth, and even the classic 30+ year old super criminal mastermind versions of her was always a good sport with standards. But without spoiling anything, let me assure you that some of her, uh, less heroic tendencies creep in. If she manages to complete her objectives and thwart VILE for good, it wouldn't be out of character for her to steal the organization and reform it to her liking as sweet revenge. Then proceed to steal for sport with unlimited resources, lackeys, and no one remotely good enough to challenge her but her former crew. Overall, the show gives her a lot of depth while still giving her an air of mystery. Regardless of her alignment, she never stops feeling out of character because she always does whatever the heck she wants lol. It's worth checking out, IMO. If there was ever a good "they're the protagonist in this story" exception, this one is a solid example.
 
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KatKit

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#18
I did it. Here's a moveset concept for Carmen Sandiego. It's an amalgamation of every version of her.

Carmen Sandiego can steal items by simply walking pass other characters. Additionally, there's a 1/8 chance that she swipes items by hitting you. In fact, Carmen is such a good thief, she can even steal things like charged/stored projectiles (like Samus' charge shot, for example), buffs/status effects (Deep Breathing buffs, Monado arts, etc.), and take pocketed items away from Villager/Isabelle. Carmen can activate what she steals by pressing the neutral B button.

Down Special - The Babble On Ray (based off of the Babble on Machine from Word Detective). To teach players the importance of language, Carmen Sandiego steals their abilities to speak coherently by zapping them with her latest invention. It prevents characters from using any special moves for up to 15 seconds, or until they hit Carmen. Fortunately, Carmen likes a challenge, so the move can only be used up to 6 times per stock. Hopefully, keeping track of all of this will improve your math skills! Additionally, all sounds the opponent character makes while affected is distorted gibberish.

Side Special - Grappling hook. If tilted, Carmen drags opponents to her (Scorpion style). However, if the button is pressed like a Smash attack, after grappling the opponent, Carmen follows up with a kick attack to the face (they never protect the face). The smash version has a chance to steal whatever item the player is carrying once Carmen kicks them away. The grappling hook also doubles as a tether recovery.

Up Special - Paraglider. Press up B once to make Carmen dramatically leap in the air. Surprise! Press B again for Carmen to whip out her paraglider for a stylish escape like:



Final Smash - Where in Time/Where in the World? The capture robot appears on screen, but Carmen dodges it and vanishes. Cue brief cinematic cutscene with an ACME detective acquiring clues/looking at a map of the world trying to pinpoint Carmen. End cutscene. Carmen returns and drops a random historical landmark (Pyramid/Statue of Liberty/Eiffel Tower/etc.) or even stage hazards from other levels that deals massive damage.

Jumping animation:



Taunt: She's gotta have the signature hat tilt:

tenor.gif


Another taunt can involve looking directly at the screen (you) and saying, "Try to catch me, player."

Her tilt attacks can be hand-to-hand combat. She has a lot of fight scenes to work with. I think her dodging a mouse cursor (like Duck Hunt dodges the zapper) for a couple of Smash attacks would be cool, too. She also has a boatload of vehicles, gadgets, and lackeys at her disposal, if they want to incorporate any of that.
 
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Guybrush20X6

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#19
While I don't think she's got the best chances, it would be a a great dark horse choice.

Plus she's a woman and an antagonist (depending on exact version of the character) so that's a plus.
 

AlRex

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#20
KatKit KatKit That moveset is honestly amazing, I like that it differentiates her stealing from Villager and manages to incorporate somewhat educationally-based elements as well, even.
 
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#23
I've lurked a bit, but actually signed up to throw in my support for this.

She's a fun character, has legacy behind her, and represents a couple of segments not yet well-represented in Smash (edutainment and earlier generations of PC gaming).

A reveal trailer framed as a classic intro from the Chief explaining that a Smash invitation has been stolen could be fun.
At 7:37 PM yesterday evening, a sudden blackout blanketed the business district. When the lights came back on, a particular piece of postage had been purloined - a Smash invitation that was signed, sealed, and set for submission vanished without a trace. Such a brazen burglary could only be perpetrated by a single, sensational swindler, but four individuals (Wario, Ridley, Joker, and [to be a bit cruel], Waluigi) were seen eyeballing the enigmatic envelope before its mysterious misappropriation.

Your mission is to investigate these four sad sacks and look for any clues that could lead to the much-maligned mastermind of this heinous heist. It won't be easy, but I've got faith in you, gumshoe.

To find this invitation, you will have to answer the most cryptic question of them all:
Where in the World of Light is...

Carmen Sandiego ... Is on the Move!

A final Smash based on one of her heists would be great too. If they were willing to reference the classic gameshow theme, maybe have her flood the stage with the Mekong River with giant catfish flailing about. <_<

What design do you prefer? I really like both but I feel like her Classic design is cooler.
Personally, I'm really fond of the design they used for Carmen Sandiego Returns. Unfortunately, the HQ art for it is not present in many places (even the linked image is kind of low-quality), and most people aren't as familiar with it, but eh:



A costume based on her original, more frumpy brown style seen in the 1985 game would be cool too, though.

 
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#24
Welcome to the forum! Wow, you know your stuff. That was a good reveal trailer and final smash concept.

Personally, I don't favor any one look over the other; they're all classy and charming in their own way (yes, even the OG taco-loving Carmen, haha). Whichever design they go with, I'm sure a couple of her palette swaps would reference the others.
 
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