Stale moves - This aint brawl!

[Zodiac]

We all (should) know that percent done for moves decreases the more you use it and then refreshes when you respawn. but I've seen a lot of people acting as if it the knock back is actually degraded. Why is this? has brawl mindsets just leaked over to melee? or is there actually a small decrease in knock back? I don't think there is, and if there is its completely unnoticeable. which means it doesn't even need to be mentioned.

 

[Oracle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OgCDwvLO8

It's usually not noticeable at all, but it can have small effects in some situations. Meh

 

[CRASHiC]

No one tell the Jigglys.

 

[Lovage]

if falcon hits a fox with a totally fresh stomp at 0% it will do 16%, knock him in the air and force him to tech. if it's staled at all it will do less than 16% and the fox will be stuck on the ground in hitlag instead of getting popped up.

 

[Fletch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OgCDwvLO8

It's usually not noticeable at all, but it can have small effects in some situations. Meh

This video is so misleading... Knockback in Melee is calculated after the damage is dealt, so the first one is just an f-smash at 59% and the essentially one at 48%. Knockback doesn't actually stale, and I really wish Phanna would just take that video down. IIRC, however, some projectiles go by the Brawl system (i.e. Samus charge shot), but that's it.

 

[gm jack]

Even then, that is essentially staled. You are hitting somebody under the same conditions and getting less damage and knock back. It just happens that the two are linked.

 

[AXE 09]

Pretty much what everyone said in this thread. Knockback is TECHNICALLY reduced for stale moves.

How far the person goes flying off all depends on what percent your opponent is at AFTER you hit them. So, let's say your opponent is at 100% and gets hit by an attack that deals 10 damage. He will be sent flying at a certain speed. However, if the move is stale and only deals, say, 7 damage, then your opponent will not fly as far. What determines the knockback is the percent that he is at after you hit him. In this case, 110% is greater than 107%. So the non-stale move will send him further.

However (using the above example), if your opponent is at 103% and your move is stale so it gives 7 damage, then it will give the EXACT SAME knockback as if your move was not stale (so it gives 10 damage) and your opponent was at 100%. Follow what I'm saying here? It's the damage AFTER YOU'RE HIT that counts, not before you're hit.

 

[Fletch]

Knockback is TECHNICALLY not reduced for stale moves.

Your explanation is correct, but this part was misleading as knockback is never reduced for stale moves.

 

[Zodiac]

Pretty much what everyone said in this thread. Knockback is TECHNICALLY reduced for stale moves.

How far the person goes flying off all depends on what percent your opponent is at AFTER you hit them. So, let's say your opponent is at 100% and gets hit by an attack that deals 10 damage. He will be sent flying at a certain speed. However, if the move is stale and only deals, say, 7 damage, then your opponent will not fly as far. What determines the knockback is the percent that he is at after you hit him. In this case, 110% is greater than 107%. So the non-stale move will send him further.

However (using the above example), if your opponent is at 103% and your move is stale so it gives 7 damage, then it will give the EXACT SAME knockback as if your move was not stale (so it gives 10 damage) and your opponent was at 100%. Follow what I'm saying here? It's the damage AFTER YOU'RE HIT that counts, not before you're hit.

Ooooh I see, its not REALLY reduced its just because the percent is reduced and thus the distance is reduced, and it can be fixed by adding a jab or to on before you do that move you need to send your opponent flying.

 

[AXE 09]

Your explanation is correct, but this part was misleading as knockback is never reduced for stale moves.

Yeah, everything's kinda misleading now a days >.>

My point is...

Let's say you're playing Fox, and you kill a Marth off the top (with no DI) with a Usmash at like 85%. If you keep using your Usmash until he gets to 85% again, then Usmash him one more time expecting a kill, you most likely won't get the kill because your move is stale. According to my last post, since he will not have as much damage after you hit him, he won't fly as far.

Knockback is never reduced in Melee, but it really does look like it is in the eyes of an average person. That's why I said that it TECHNICALLY is reduced.

In brawl (notice how I didn't capitalize it? lolol I'm so funny hahahaha yeah.... not really =/), not only does the damage decrease, but also the knockback decreases. So it's technically like double knockback reduction o.O

 

[Fletch]

Yeah, everything's kinda misleading now a days >.>

My point is...

Let's say you're playing Fox, and you kill a Marth off the top (with no DI) with a Usmash at like 85%. If you keep using your Usmash until he gets to 85% again, then Usmash him one more time expecting a kill, you most likely won't get the kill because your move is stale. According to my last post, since he will not have as much damage after you hit him, he won't fly as far.

Knockback is never reduced in Melee, but it really does look like it is in the eyes of an average person. That's why I said that it TECHNICALLY is reduced.

In brawl (notice how I didn't capitalize it? lolol I'm so funny hahahaha yeah.... not really =/), not only does the damage decrease, but also the knockback decreases. So it's technically like double knockback reduction o.O

Ha I know what you meant, just wanted to clear it up for anyone else reading. Oh and Brawl sucks.

 

[AXE 09]

Oh and Brawl sucks.

Heck yeah

 

[TheManaLord]

Knockback is determined after damage is calculated.

So yes, a stale move will send someone less far than a non stale move if used in the same situation (against the same %). But, if say, a stale move hits someone at 48% and they go to 60%, and the non stale move hits someone at 45% and they go to 60%, the knockback will be the same.

 

[soju]

Do the stale moves work for every move?
Or just the smash attacks XD

 

[TheManaLord]

all moves, no move has set percentage (iirc... it's kind if a trivial concept), some do, however, have set knockback.

 

[AXE 09]

all moves, no move has set percentage (iirc... it's kind if a trivial concept), some do, however, have set knockback.

I think Fox/Falco's Shine always gives 5% damage. However, only Fox's shine has set knockback. Kinda strange lol

 

[TheManaLord]

No, they definitely don't give a set percentage.

The only thing I was really questioning was items, hazards, and enemies. Information I've lost in time since I haven't dabbled with those mechanics of the game since like 04.

 

[AXE 09]

Yeah you're right. My bad lol.

Well if you wanna get REALLY technical...

Luigi's taunt always gives 1%. Doesn't that mean that it technically never gets stale? lmao

 

[BigD!!!]

hey i've been wondering this for a while, speaking of moves doing 1%

the moves that do less than 1%, is it a random element that decides whether or not they do the damage, or are there fractions of %'s that we dont see?

 

[gm jack]

Fractions we don't see IIRC.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falco's Shine does 8.

Turnips don't stale and don't affect the stale moves of Peach so I don't think thrown items or stage hazards stale. Clobbering items like beam sword do though I think.

 

[AXE 09]

Turnips don't stale? Not even if you keep catching and throwing the same one? I did not know that, that's pretty tight lol.

But how does that explain things like Falco/Fox lasers and Samus charge shots?

 

[Kanelol]

Turnips don't stale? Not even if you keep catching and throwing the same one? I did not know that, that's pretty tight lol.

But how does that explain things like Falco/Fox lasers and Samus charge shots?

Turnips are traditional objects, Lasers and Charge shots are projectiles. I'm pretty sure the game classifies them differently. Pretty sure.

 

[Devil Ray]

interesting thread. i'll still spam the same move tho

 

[Lovage]

you know when falco's shine makes someone fly up in the air not in tumble? that's cuz the shine decayed below 8% or 7% and you hit them on a missed tech. this happens to all "launcher moves" when they decay a certain amount, like falcon's side+b, sheiks ftilt, fox's utilt etc.

also i think we've all seen samus' screw attack and peach's umbrella do 0% but still knock you over

 

[TheManaLord]

Damage can be dealt in decimals

I'll ar what moves don't stale. Or magus knows.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

What about this quote? I THINK this is correct.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=3862285&postcount=16

 

[TheManaLord]

Yeah that's been said

 

[AXE 09]

you know when falco's shine makes someone fly up in the air not in tumble? that's cuz the shine decayed below 8% or 7% and you hit them on a missed tech. this happens to all "launcher moves" when they decay a certain amount, like falcon's side+b, sheiks ftilt, fox's utilt etc.

Are you serious????? Is that why that happens??? Dude, I've been learning so much stuff about melee these past few days. It's ridiculous lol.

So you mean to tell me that if a "launcher" move is not stale, this effect will never happen?

 

[Lovage]

yup

knock someone down and hit them with falco's FRESH shine, it will never pop them up like that

shine them 2+ times and then do it when they're on the ground and it will happen every time.

magus made a post about the way moves refresh, stuff about how theres 8 (or 10?) moves on your decay table at a time, and how they multiply together in specific ways (the move you did 8 moves ago wont be as stale as the move you did 1 move ago because its been refreshed 7 times)

 

[AXE 09]

I've always been curious as to how many times you need to do other moves in order to unstale a completely staled move. Would you happen to know? Or do you know where all that data is posted at that Magus talked about?

 

[Pi]

Aw
I wanted to be the guy with the answer
Oh well at least this is pretty well known then.


@axe
I wanna say 9.

 

[Magus420]

So you mean to tell me that if a "launcher" move is not stale, this effect will never happen?

If the launcher does less than 7.00% fresh it will happen even without being staled. Moves like Falco's shine, raptor boost, etc just happen to be at or above the 7.00% mark normally but quickly dip below it when staled a bit. It's related to resets, and a special animation used when hit by an attack that does less than 7.00% while on the ground. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9872129&postcount=28


How the damage staling system works: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9016367&postcount=6176

Moves that stale in both damage AND knockback like Brawl: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9135932&postcount=6771

 

[Pi]

Magus
If I shoot a bunch of samus Uncharged shots
Will that stale the FCS in damage/kb?

 

[Magus420]

As long as they hit and damage a player (shy guys won't stale your attacks, but hitting your teammate will) without being reflected (they would no longer be considered 'yours' unless you reflect it back), yes. Uncharged and full charged shots are both the same move (neutral-B). Same with hitting them with homing missiles and then a smash missile (side-B). If they reflect your projectile and it hits someone it will actually stale their move of that same input. So if CF powershields a charged shot back at you and it connects, their falcon punch will become staled, lol.

 

[pockyD]

If they reflect your projectile and it hits someone it will actually stale their move of that same input. So if CF powershields a charged shot back at you and it connects, their falcon punch will become staled, lol.

that's excellent

 

[Kanelol]

where do you learn all this **** magus

 

[Fletch]

post made of win

Where do you learn all this stuff, is there a smash school?

EDIT: Ninja'd

 

[Pi]

Very interesting o.O

 

[Zodiac]

Wait, so does that mean if I power shield falco's lasers as sheik my needles get staled? O_o