Stages

[Griffard]

As we all know, Ganondorf has huge problems in tournaments. To combat this, what stages do you shoot for in neutrals or choose as your counterpick for game 2/3? I'll update the OP after some discussion.

Great:
Pirate Ship
Battlefield
Smashville
Norfair
Brinstar

Neutral:
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Delfino Island


Bad:
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Jungle Japes
Green Greens
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Luigi's Mansion
Frigate Orpheon




What are YOUR thoughts?

 

[Metal_Dave]

Delfino idk it seems to be neutral to me cause coming up short on the recovery towards the stage while its flying through the level awfully happens a lot for me. Although there are some parts of the stage where Ganon owns at, but he can get owned in the other sections just as well so it's like a 50/50 to my view.
Battlefield is HEAVEN for Ganon...I love it, so much comboing on that stage and it just feels like it is haven. Pirate Ship is pretty good for Ganon I really like it, but I haven't worked the ganoncide on the left side of the stage into my game much. I really should get on top of that.
As for the bad stages: Lylat, Yoshi's, Jungle Japes, Green Greens, Frigate, a lot of those stages are just HELL for Ganon because of auto-canceling getting owned. ;[

Though idk about most Ganon users, but I really enjoy playing on Castle Siege with Ganon, the first two stages work out so perfect for Ganon imo, just got to be careful on the third stage with the tipping rock since you are in danger of getting gimped, and it's pretty much like another Final Destination.

 

[:034:]

Norfair and Brinstar. These stages are counterpicks. Just Ganoncide into the lava, they die, you live.

 

[Sgt. Baker]

How about Smashville? I love playing that place as Ganon. No getting caught underneth the ledges lol.

 

[Meian]

You listed Lylat Cruise twice (unless it was on purpose to say how bad it was for Ganondorf XD)

I really like Smashville overall since I am more use to the stage and how it works. I didn't have that much problems on Lylat Cruise but I can understand the feeling.

Theres something about Battlefield that I can't grasp well. Although, this is the only stage I can have a chance against Diddy Kong.

Halberd's floating platform causes me problems if I Thunderstomp on the higher elevated ledges causing the lag, but the stage is just really fun overall anyway.

Dave touched on the weaker stages as well that I have to agree with.

Big flat stages with no platforms like Bridge and FD are just a nightmare...

 

[xX Boezy Xx]

Smashville and Battlefield.

They are flat for easy thunderstomping (no inclines to **** you up, like on Lylat Cruiser or Yoshi's island), and both offer platforms to avoid spammy projectiles.

These are the two levels I always pick first. As for counterpicks, Norfair and Brinstar because of the Ganoncide.

 

[Griffard]

of the Samus stages, do you guys recommend one over the other? I would think Brinstar would be better than Norfair since lava is normally higher up. there are some ****ed up ledges on both of them though

 

[Griffard]

I added Luigi's Mansion and Frigate Orpheon to bad stages.
L'sM: Against faster characters, you can be chained by smashes and multiple hit tilts, and you don't have a quick way of breaking down the walls without being in danger. Ganondorf has a lot of horizontal kill moves, but they're pointless if you never get a hit in due to being trapped in enemy fire
FO: Before the flip, you can only easily recover on one side, and that side is still difficult due to the stage shape, close KO zones to the sides and wall-jump-ability of edgeguarders. After the flip, the platform isn't short enough for you to be able to T-stomp through and hit people on top. Also, smaller platforms help out the quicker characters, not to mention the moving platforms are heaven for projectile campers such as R.O.B. and Zelda

 

[:034:]

I tried out Norfair today against Empy's Ike, and I must say it worked remarkably well.. The stage layout makes people a bit uncomfortable, and it's easy to get people above you.. When that happens, uair/usmash through the platform. You can do really easy Ganoncides too, and of course the Fakecide, when they die and you live.

I'll have to play more on these stages, especially since it's officially a CP now, rather than banned.

 

[ZeonStar]

Only thing about Yoshi's Island is the problem with autocanceled D-airs, otherwise its pretty good for him.

 

[Metal_Dave]

I tried out Norfair today against Empy's Ike, and I must say it worked remarkably well.. The stage layout makes people a bit uncomfortable, and it's easy to get people above you.. When that happens, uair/usmash through the platform. You can do really easy Ganoncides too, and of course the Fakecide, when they die and you live.

I'll have to play more on these stages, especially since it's officially a CP now, rather than banned.

Dude I was just thinking about that today, and now that you mentioned it. I'm dying to try it out!

 

[Shameadactyl]

I just went to a tourney on Sunday, and spent most of the day CPing Delfino and Brinstar (Only good CP's I had available to me). I did horribly bad in the tournament, but I managed to pull off a remarkably easy fakecide against one of the better players at the tourney on Brinstar by SideB'ing into the left most ledge to take him off and throw him into the lava.

Personally, I liked Delfino a lot better. Anyone who missed the stage coming up got a big fat Dair in the face for trying to get up to it or trying to go through it. On top of that, anyone who got hucked into the water usually got a Dair while they were flailing about like a drowning puppy. Easy KO's are ftw. I just lose because I suck at avoiding mind games.

 

[Swoops]

Odd that you'd say Green Greens is a bad stage for him. I actually think it works well versus a lot of people. Close sides and ceiling gets you kills at ridiculously low percents, flat terrain, huge exploshuns, and some cool early spikes between platforms.

Brinstar is iffy. Actually I think it's kind of bad. Lava...is about the only thing the stage has going for it. Otherwise you have uneven terrain to mess up autocancels, messes up gerudo chase game, and the weird crack thingy stops gerudo and sometimes wizkick.

 

[crap monkey]

What about Green Hill Zone? I find it to be horrible for Ganondorf. The slopes **** everything up. Dtilt can't hit anywhere except on the bottom or sides. Thunderstorming is tough when the opponent is above you, aerial characters dominate this stage, not good for him. And the random parts of the stage falling apart is bad if you decide to aerial vB. Also, the little spinning things usually go against you since being such a slow character means you won't be able to reach it before your opponent.

 

[Shadow Nataku]

Actually I don't think Final Destination is all that bad for Ganondorf, I find the major mistake most people do is they don't take advantage of the ledges. Ganondorf pretty much needs to take advantage of his ledge game and safe recoveries for FD. The problem is Ganny is such a heavy defensive character used to controlling his ground in the center of the stage most players don't practice safe recoveries with him.

Simple things like coming back on stage with a 360 Warlock Punch, Warlock Kick cancel, Uair through the ledge of the stage and lagless murder chokes. What happens is Ganondorf can actually control the ledges very well and forces people to come after him or he can stall all day.

 

[Griffard]

Odd that you'd say Green Greens is a bad stage for him. I actually think it works well versus a lot of people. Close sides and ceiling gets you kills at ridiculously low percents, flat terrain, huge exploshuns, and some cool early spikes between platforms.

Brinstar is iffy. Actually I think it's kind of bad. Lava...is about the only thing the stage has going for it. Otherwise you have uneven terrain to mess up autocancels, messes up gerudo chase game, and the weird crack thingy stops gerudo and sometimes wizkick.

I used to totally agree with you, and I even used Green Greens as a CP, but the truth is is that Ganon really gets killed by characters with aimable projectiles, good throws, a good gimp game, or just faster, higher priority attacks. You can still try it against DK or Ike or whoever, but against most of the cast you're a sitting duck.

What about Green Hill Zone? I find it to be horrible for Ganondorf. The slopes **** everything up. Dtilt can't hit anywhere except on the bottom or sides. Thunderstorming is tough when the opponent is above you, aerial characters dominate this stage, not good for him. And the random parts of the stage falling apart is bad if you decide to aerial vB. Also, the little spinning things usually go against you since being such a slow character means you won't be able to reach it before your opponent.

Is Green Hill Zone really a counterpick? That would be sort of screwed up imo. Obviously it's a bad stage for most people, you can be chained to death by ics, ddd, falco, out-camped by anyone speedy to reach the checkpoints, and yeah, you're sort of relying on your ground game and uair I would think. I would avoid this stage.

Actually I don't think Final Destination is all that bad for Ganondorf, I find the major mistake most people do is they don't take advantage of the ledges. Ganondorf pretty much needs to take advantage of his ledge game and safe recoveries for FD. The problem is Ganny is such a heavy defensive character used to controlling his ground in the center of the stage most players don't practice safe recoveries with him.

Simple things like coming back on stage with a 360 Warlock Punch, Warlock Kick cancel, Uair through the ledge of the stage and lagless murder chokes. What happens is Ganondorf can actually control the ledges very well and forces people to come after him or he can stall all day.

FD isn't BAD for Ganondorf, but it's much better for other characters. The unusual curve below the stage isn't so much a big deal as is the very large, single platform and wide zones to the sides. Ganon can be outcamped forever, for instance a fox or falco can just stand there and shoot lasers, and by the time you've shieldwalked up, they can run over and begin again. That may not be a likely example, but you get my gist. I can never fully stress the importance of attacking from the ledge and waiting out for the right moment to roll or jump up and murder kick, but the curves underneath DO make it a bit harder to avoid being gimped.

 

[Shadow Nataku]

Ganon can be outcamped forever, for instance a fox or falco can just stand there and shoot lasers, and by the time you've shieldwalked up, they can run over and begin again. That may not be a likely example, but you get my gist. .

Thats the absolute truth but instead of attacking them Ganny should be forcing them to come in to attack him. Falco/Fox are by far some of his worst opponents, other projectile users can actually be dealt with easily cept those two.

I can never fully stress the importance of attacking from the ledge and waiting out for the right moment to roll or jump up and murder kick, but the curves underneath DO make it a bit harder to avoid being gimped

This is exactly what I'm agreeing with you on, Ganondorf needs to abuse his ledge game. Its one of his best tactics not just on FD but any stage, Ganon is actually an incredible edgehog which I don't think enough players are exploring.

One thing I almost NEVER see anyone doing is a Uair edgehog recovery despite it being possibly Ganny's safest recovery, simply drop off the ledge and immediately Uair. The Uair actually gets a tiny lift which stops Ganon simply plumetting. But more importantly it reaches THROUGH the stage with some hefty range, priority and power.

If they're silly enough to be anywhere even close to the ledge or attempt a, grab or finish they'll be outprioritized and smacked flying. If they attempt to come after you for the kill than the end part of the attack is actually a semi spike. What this means is then you can simply Up+B back up after clearing the ledge and finish the job.

The other way of recovering I use is to do a jump up the ledge grab but immediately do a Murder Kick like you mentioned than follow with a SH Uair or a Up Smash. I actually find rolling straight up without hitting them is a terrible idea simply because Ganondorf is so easy to tech chase.

 

[Griffard]

good post. also, a low enough up b under the stage hits like 3 char lengths in from the side

 

[Shadow Nataku]

good post. also, a low enough up b under the stage hits like 3 char lengths in from the side

Well thats the thing, if you do the Uair recovery it puts you into a perfect position for a Up+B to a direct edge grab with minimal airtime lag. You can't edge guard Ganny because if you do you'll just be grabbed and the rebound puts you directly level with the ground for a lagless Murder Choke back onto the stage. Try a second edge guard and you just get Ganoncided since theres like no hit stun from Up+B and if you did it right they should actually be under the stage ledge...simple as that.

 

[Griffard]

yes. the only character i've seen give me ANY trouble is darkNES's Sonic. they just run off, bair and stage spike you. So do that against any character except for Sonic IMO. ANYWAYS! enough of that, let's get back to stage discussion!