Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread:

[Infinite901]

In my experience, FLSS just means you see people gentleman to Smashville even more often.

Probably because they don't really care about winning.

 

[Kel]

Whoring myself out a bit here but since people are talking about Skyloft, I figured I'd link to this video again:

Once you play on Skyloft enough, it becomes second nature where the hazards will be. I'm actually somewhat surprised that Wuhu seems to get more attention for being legal than Skyloft.

That's a pretty good video of what I'm talking about. I don't see any anti-competitive aspects here. The stage hazards in Skyloft seem to be milder than Halberd even.

 

[b2jammer]

After playing on Peach Castle 64 for a while now, I have another possible stage list - a 7-starter this time:
=Starter=
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Town & City
Skyloft
Lylat Cruise
Duck Hunt

=Counterpick/FLSS=
Kongo Jungle 64
Halberd
Castle Siege
Wuhu Island
Delfino Plaza
Peach's Castle 64
Dream Land 64

I put Peach's Castle as a counterpick because I thought the blast zones seemed a bit too big, given the stage's overall structure. EDIT: That, and the triangle walls on the sides can be teched on.

Thoughts?

 

[chaos11011]

In my experience, FLSS just means you see people gentleman to Smashville even more often.

That is a fault of the player base and not the format.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

After playing on Peach Castle 64 for a while now, I have another possible stage list - a 7-starter this time:
=Starter=
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Town & City
Skyloft
Lylat Cruise
Duck Hunt

=Counterpick/FLSS=
Kongo Jungle 64
Halberd
Castle Siege
Wuhu Island
Delfino Plaza
Peach's Castle 64
Dream Land 64

I put Peach's Castle as a counterpick because I thought the blast zones seemed a bit too big, given the stage's overall structure. EDIT: That, and the triangle walls on the sides can be teched on.

Thoughts?

It's beautiful, if only for one major flaw, that it doesn't have 4X+1 stages on starter list. If you maybe moved Wuhu and Kongo to starters it'd be great. It has every stage I love legal, except for some pipe dreams stages that keep me up at night. PS2 plz.

But overall, fantastic

 

[Luigi player]

stuff

While Lylat does have its own merit to exist, it's viewed worse than the other 5 by like everyone. It's a pretty decent stage, don't get me wrong, but there are a few things that just may worry competitive players. You can't depend on the stationarity of the main platform. The three platforms are all low, making them all spots the get punished by from the ground, and of course not being able to autocancel your aerials and stuff correctly, because of the uneven ground plus the stage angling itself.

Dreamland 64s small differences to Battlefield also make it a lot more different in reality.
Battlefields platforms kinda trap your landing and your approaches, this is much less of a problem on Dreamland, because of the lower platforms not being as long. This also makes it so that there's more space in the middle of the stage so you can fight more "normally", which is a pretty big deal. And they are a little higher up, meaning there's even more room for approaching. The blastzone at the top is also not superhuge, making the stage more "normal" and similar to the others.

I still dispise BF as a stage because of its narrowness and difficulties to approach while having its juggleabilities reallly great with all these big platforms to make you have troubles to land or move around normally, while Dreamland is one of my few favorites.


I had a thought that Lylat might be a decent CP against Sheik, because of needles being towned down a bit... but thinking about her having free tippers all over the place through the platforms is super scary. And since all these platforms are so low there's not much room to land on. You basically have to maneuver in the two little spaces between the 3 platforms (or to the edge, which can be risky too and puts most characters in a even more disadvantages situation).

 

[epicnights]

It's beautiful, if only for one major flaw, that it doesn't have 4X+1 stages on starter list. If you maybe moved Wuhu and Kongo to starters it'd be great. It has every stage I love legal, except for some pipe dreams stages that keep me up at night. PS2 plz.

But overall, fantastic

Can someone explain how people got this equation? I kind of understand the idea behind it, but I'm not sure.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Can someone explain how people got this equation? I kind of understand the idea behind it, but I'm not sure.

It gives the first striker the advantage when stage striking, provided stage striking is done in a 1-2-1 style fashion, i.e. Player one strikes 1 stage, player 2 strikes 2 stages, player 1 chooses from remaining two, repeat with added 2 stage strike turns if going up to say 9 or 13 stages, which is generally how stage striking is done

 

[Pazx]

Can someone explain how people got this equation? I kind of understand the idea behind it, but I'm not sure.

This formula gives you a stagelist of 5, 9, 13 etc which is superior to 3, 7, 11 as it offers less of an advantage to striking first/second. The theory is the player with the strongest strike (the last one) should also have the weakest strike (the first one).

 

[ShadyWolfe]

The starter/counter system is flawed and I would love to see it go away. If a stage is not fair enough to be a starter then why do we even have counter pick only stages? A full stage list striking system comprised of an odd number of stages would be better. First game of the match both players strike until there is one left to play and for all other subsequent ones the winner chooses a stage(s) to ban. Battlefield, Final Destination, Delfino Plaza, Dream Land, Castle Siege, Halberd, Smashville, Town and City, Duck Hunt, Lylat Cruise, Kongo Jungle, Skyloft, Pokemon Stadium 2, Wuhu Island, and Peach's Castle would be a nice start and we as a community could whitle it down when we find some stages problematic and add new stages when they come.

Peach's Castle is a new(ish) stage added to Smash 4 and I think it could be a good addition to the competitive stage list. All the ledges are grab-able unlike 64 and the metal triangle things don't provide anything negative except adding the possibility of characters living longer. The bouncer is not that bad of a hazard as it moves predictably, is pretty far up, and doesn't target players. What is nice about the stage is that it has a unique layout and strategies that can be played with the bouncing thing and the moving platforms.

 

[b2jammer]

It's beautiful, if only for one major flaw, that it doesn't have 4X+1 stages on starter list. If you maybe moved Wuhu and Kongo to starters it'd be great. It has every stage I love legal, except for some pipe dreams stages that keep me up at night. PS2 plz.

But overall, fantastic

Okay, correcting the starter count and a few other adjustments, mostly in making it a bit more flexible:
5-Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise

9-Starter
Dream Land 64
Duck Hunt
Skyloft
Kongo Jungle 64

FLSS/Counterpick
Pokemon Stadium 2
Peach's Castle 64
Wuhu Island
Halberd
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza

I wasn't much of a fan of PS2 before mostly because of my lack of experience with the stage, but I can now agree with it being at least a counterpick or FLSS option.

The starter/counter system is flawed and I would love to see it go away. If a stage is not fair enough to be a starter then why do we even have counter pick only stages? A full stage list striking system comprised of an odd number of stages would be better. First game of the match both players strike until there is one left to play and for all other subsequent ones the winner chooses a stage(s) to ban.

Counterpick-only stages are there because in game 1, neither player has a solid idea of how the other will perform, so a more neutral stage will allow them to focus on their opponent's play style. After game 1, when each player has a better idea of what to expect, the less neutral stages (low ceilings, walkoffs, etc) can be used to work to a player's strength or weakness. A large starter list with a few counterpicks can be the best of both the S/C and FLSS worlds, as it gives the diversity of a FLSS without keeping redundant bans in game 1.

 

[Infinite901]

5-Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise

9-Starter
Dream Land 64
Duck Hunt
Skyloft
Kongo Jungle 64

FLSS/Counterpick
Pokemon Stadium 2
Peach's Castle 64
Wuhu Island
Halberd
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza

If I were to ever TO something I would use this minus Halberd and Peach's for a clean 13-stage FLSS.

 

[FairyLip]

Infinite, I thought that Peach's Castle was generally agreed to be counterpick, at least for a bit until we get a good read on any possible jank it has.

 

[b2jammer]

If I were to ever TO something I would use this minus Halberd and Peach's for a clean 13-stage FLSS.

I can see that. I assume Halberd because of the ship's weapons in addition to the low ceiling, and Peach's because it's rather new and/or it has some potential problems.

Infinite, I thought that Peach's Castle was generally agreed to be counterpick, at least for a bit until we get a good read on any possible jank it has.

I could really go either way myself; the triangle platforms and large blastlines are the only potential potential problems I can think of.
With all that said, one more revision split:
5-Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise

9-Starter
Dream Land 64
Duck Hunt
Skyloft
Kongo Jungle 64

13-Starter
Pokemon Stadium 2
Wuhu Island
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza

Counterpick
Halberd
Peach's Castle 64

 

[FairyLip]

6-Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise
Dream Land 64

9-Starter
Duck Hunt
Skyloft
Kongo Jungle 64

13-Starter
Pokemon Stadium 2
Wuhu Island
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza

Counterpick
Halberd
Peach's Castle 64

My version. I feel like we don't need it just to be 5 starter. DL doesn't really have much jank at all, with how mediocre Whispy is.

 

[b2jammer]

My version. I feel like we don't need it just to be 5 starter. DL doesn't really have much jank at all, with how mediocre Whispy is.

6-starter doesn't really work with stage striking; that's the reason I had it in the 9-starter category to begin with.

 

[FairyLip]

6-starter doesn't really work with stage striking; that's the reason I had it in the 9-starter category to begin with.

Oh, sorry. I've been a bit of a tournament-starved with my area. My town's only had one tournament, and it was Omega stages only. (Both of them came out right after each version Sm4sh, and gentlemanning was allowed for the 3DS version.)

 

[b2jammer]

Oh, sorry. I've been a bit of a tournament-starved with my area. My town's only had one tournament, and it was Omega stages only. (Both of them came out right after each version Sm4sh, and gentlemanning was allowed for the 3DS version.)

Fair enough. I can definitely see your reasoning, though.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Oh, sorry. I've been a bit of a tournament-starved with my area. My town's only had one tournament, and it was Omega stages only. (Both of them came out right after each version Sm4sh, and gentlemanning was allowed for the 3DS version.)

There absolutely has to be an odd number of starters, and preferably a number that satisfies the formula 4x + 1 so that the same player strikes first and last. (Striking first is a disadvantage, striking last is an advantage, so you want the same player to do both so it cancels out.)

 

[b2jammer]

There absolutely has to be an odd number of starters, and preferably a number that satisfies the formula 4x + 1 so that the same player strikes first and last. (Striking first is a disadvantage, striking last is an advantage, so you want the same player to do both so it cancels out.)

FairyLip definitely got me thinking, though. I still think Dream Land 64 should be a 9-starter stage because of its similarity to BF (more so than any of the other 4 stages), but I can see reasoning for other stages, especially Lylat and T&C.

As for stage bans in games 2 and 3, I think it should be 1 ban for 5-8 stages, 2 bans for 9-12 stages, and 3 bans for 13 or more stages, with DSR not being factored into the ban count (e.g. a list with 9 stages would have 8 due to DSR, but would still have 2 bans, leaving 6 stages to choose from).

 

[Infinite901]

Infinite, I thought that Peach's Castle was generally agreed to be counterpick, at least for a bit until we get a good read on any possible jank it has.

Yeah I agree, but theres not really anything to bring the list to 17 (wich even I think is pushing it) so it needs to get cut down to 13. Between Peach's and PS2 I felt PS2 was a bit more tame. (though maybe I'm a bit biased 'cause I really like PS2)

 

[b2jammer]

Yeah I agree, but theres not really anything to bring the list to 17 (wich even I think is pushing it) so it needs to get cut down to 13. Between Peach's and PS2 I felt PS2 was a bit more tame. (though maybe I'm a bit biased 'cause I really like PS2)

Well, Peach's is new (it was just released a few days ago IIRC), so people still have to get used to it with Smash 4's physics.

 

[FairyLip]

FairyLip definitely got me thinking, though. I still think Dream Land 64 should be a 9-starter stage because of its similarity to BF (more so than any of the other 4 stages), but I can see reasoning for other stages, especially Lylat and T&C.

T&C is traveling. It's not as much of a huge traveling stage as, say, Skyloft or Wuhu, but it's still a traveling stage. Also, I tend to be very iffy on Lylat, because starters are supposed to have minimal jank, besides DL.

 

[b2jammer]

T&C is traveling. It's not as much of a huge traveling stage as, say, Skyloft or Wuhu, but it's still a traveling stage. Also, I tend to be very iffy on Lylat, because starters are supposed to have minimal jank, besides DL.

That's what I'm saying too. Those are the most janky of the starters, but even so, these stages still manage to be pretty fair. I'd say if DL was to replace anything, it would be Lylat because the tilting has more of an effect than the occasional windbox on DL. Sorry if my wording wasn't exactly clear.

 

[FairyLip]

That's what I'm saying too. Those are the most janky of the starters, but even so, these stages still manage to be pretty fair. I'd say if DL was to replace anything, it would be Lylat because the tilting has more of an effect than the occasional windbox on DL. Sorry if my wording wasn't exactly clear.

Seems like we agree, then!

So, anyway, little subtopic: Should Miiverse be banned? While it's agreed that it's a Battlefield variation, it could be distracting and may have something inappropriate for younger players in the background.

 

[Geno9999]

Seems like we agree, then!

So, anyway, little subtopic: Should Miiverse be banned? While it's agreed that it's a Battlefield variation, it could be distracting and may have something inappropriate for younger players in the background.

I'd leave that for the individual TOs to decide, though I would argue to just have the Wii U to be kept offline regardless, especially if it's being recorded/streamed live.

 

[FairyLip]

I'd leave that for the individual TOs to decide, though I would argue to just have the Wii U to be kept offline regardless, especially if it's being recorded/streamed live.

First of all, congrats on post 666 ITT. Second, my God I'm stupid. I didn't even think of that. Are there cached posts, though? That's the biggest thing, in that case.

 

[dav3yb]

I'd leave that for the individual TOs to decide, though I would argue to just have the Wii U to be kept offline regardless, especially if it's being recorded/streamed live.

I'd say if you're going to use Miiverse, just have it be interchangeable with BF, seems a bit too similar to call it its own stage tbh.

 

[b2jammer]

Seems like we agree, then!

So, anyway, little subtopic: Should Miiverse be banned? While it's agreed that it's a Battlefield variation, it could be distracting and may have something inappropriate for younger players in the background.

To me, yes, if only because of the messages. Some of those things can get pretty raunchy sometimes (not to mention that they are distracting).

 

[Ghostbone]

Most consoles at tournaments are offline.
Most consoles aren't even on stream so miiverse's questionable backgrounds don't matter.
There are also way less *****/hentai pics now than when the stage came out, the novelty goes away.

 

[FairyLip]

I'd say if you're going to use Miiverse, just have it be interchangeable with BF, seems a bit too similar to call it its own stage tbh.

That's the idea.

Most consoles at tournaments are offline.
Most consoles aren't even on stream so miiverse's questionable backgrounds don't matter.
There are also way less *****/hentai now than when the stage came out, the novelty goes away.

Yeah, but, again, I was more concerned about younger turnout and parents getting bad impressions of the community.

 

[b2jammer]

Most consoles at tournaments are offline.
Most consoles aren't even on stream so miiverse's questionable backgrounds don't matter.
There are also way less *****/hentai pics now than when the stage came out, the novelty goes away.

Eh, still not really worth the risk just to get another Battlefield.

 

[Piford]

I have a theory as to why Delfino's blastzones work as they do. Many people say that they simply shrink, but I think that's false. I'm pretty sure what's going on is when it moves to the landing spot, the blastzones center around the new landing. The thing is, people are still on the moving platform, so they are close to the ceiling because of it. When it starts to leave, the new floating platform drags the players up near the blastzone before it recenters. This creates the blastzone shrinking illusion.

Also, while I don't think Halberd and Delfino should be banned, I'd be more okay with it if we were swapping them with Wuhu and Skyloft. I feel those are better stages anyways and should be on most list. Most players I've seen have yet to ever play on Wuhu Island and say it should be banned based on false information. Skyloft a lot of people cite that one area you can fall through as a reason to ban it, but it's so easy to avoid that it's really not an issue. I mean we don't ban Battlefield because you can fall through the right side easily (although it would probably be more justifiable since you can swap it with miiverse). Also, I hear that people don't like how you can be saved by hitting the island, but I feel like that's not really an issue because it happens so infrequently and when it does it usually just result in the person that got saved getting hit again and killed. Plus, it's no where near as bad as Yoshi's Island (Brawl) randomly saving people since you can see it coming in the background, it does damage and keeps the saved person in hitstun, and it's not random, yet no one bats an eye at Yoshi's Island (Brawl) being legal in Brawl and Smash 3DS. I'm sure if it was in Wii U it'd be legal and people would still want Skyloft banned saving people.

 

[Seiniyta]

I have a theory as to why Delfino's blastzones work as they do. Many people say that they simply shrink, but I think that's false. I'm pretty sure what's going on is when it moves to the landing spot, the blastzones center around the new landing. The thing is, people are still on the moving platform, so they are close to the ceiling because of it. When it starts to leave, the new floating platform drags the players up near the blastzone before it recenters. This creates the blastzone shrinking illusion.

Also, while I don't think Halberd and Delfino should be banned, I'd be more okay with it if we were swapping them with Wuhu and Skyloft. I feel those are better stages anyways and should be on most list. Most players I've seen have yet to ever play on Wuhu Island and say it should be banned based on false information. Skyloft a lot of people cite that one area you can fall through as a reason to ban it, but it's so easy to avoid that it's really not an issue. I mean we don't ban Battlefield because you can fall through the right side easily (although it would probably be more justifiable since you can swap it with miiverse). Also, I hear that people don't like how you can be saved by hitting the island, but I feel like that's not really an issue because it happens so infrequently and when it does it usually just result in the person that got saved getting hit again and killed. Plus, it's no where near as bad as Yoshi's Island (Brawl) randomly saving people since you can see it coming in the background, it does damage and keeps the saved person in hitstun, and it's not random, yet no one bats an eye at Yoshi's Island (Brawl) being legal in Brawl and Smash 3DS. I'm sure if it was in Wii U it'd be legal and people would still want Skyloft banned saving people.

The few times I watched skyloft matches there was unfortunately a lot of waiting out certain transformations to the point it was really disrupting the flow of the match, So that's why Wuhu seems more for considerations as waiting out doesn't seem to happen nearly as often.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

We've already been over Miiverse, haven't we? There's no reason to actually *ban* Miiverse, you can toggle messages on/off if it's distracting or just leave the system offline. Honestly speaking I would rather play there instead of Battlefield anyways, just because of how weird BF's ledges can be at times anyways.

Just treat the stage as an Omega Stage, except for Battlefield.

 

[Balgorxz]

dropping some hot opinions:
1)not using dreamland as a main starter is a sin, it's like BF without the zero to death by uair characters and gimping is far more effective thanks to the pineapple structure you can't get easy diagonal sweetspots in here, easily one of the best competitive stages out there.

2)miiverse is better than BF and they have exactly the same properties except for some extra pixels in the top platform also it has better ledges, considering 95% of the tournaments are on offline consoles, messages are irrelevant.
I'd go as far as replacing BF for miiverse entirely.

 

[Piford]

The few times I watched skyloft matches there was unfortunately a lot of waiting out certain transformations to the point it was really disrupting the flow of the match, So that's why Wuhu seems more for considerations as waiting out doesn't seem to happen nearly as often.

That's natural for people who haven't had much experience on the stage as they don't really know how to approach in certain situations at first. There definitely are some scenarios where it might lead to a camp out in neither players advantage, but it doesn't happen super often. When it does happen, it only last a couple seconds, which isn't really any different than when people just stay on opposites sides of any other stage and don't approach.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

dropping some hot opinions:
1)not using dreamland as a main starter is a sin, it's like BF without the zero to death by uair characters and gimping is far more effective thanks to the pineapple structure you can't get easy diagonal sweetspots in here, easily one of the best competitive stages out there.

2)miiverse is better than BF and they have exactly the same properties except for some extra pixels in the top platform also it has better ledges, considering 95% of the tournaments are on offline consoles, messages are irrelevant.
I'd go as far as replacing BF for miiverse entirely.

Wait, I thought the top blastzone on Dreamland is a bit lower than BF, and the platforms are higher. Doesn't that make early uAir deaths more likely?
And I agree on the miiverse part, we are doing that already at our local scene actually.

 

[Kel]

That's natural for people who haven't had much experience on the stage as they don't really know how to approach in certain situations at first. There definitely are some scenarios where it might lead to a camp out in neither players advantage, but it doesn't happen super often. When it does happen, it only last a couple seconds, which isn't really any different than when people just stay on opposites sides of any other stage and don't approach.

Skyloft transformations last 10 seconds. It's easy to wait for unfavorable transformations to pass and then resume the fight in 10 seconds. Conversely, Delfino's transformations last around 18 seconds.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So I need a bit of a reality check. /r/smashbros is having a discussion on Delfino and the comments seem to be strongly leaning toward banned.

Without any lolreddit, can someone explain to me what mortal sin Delfino has committed?