Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread:

[Pazx]

Yeah I don't really think that actually happens. As a player, not using your stage ban on Halberd basically means your main is good on that stage or you have a very well polished secondary who gets a lot out of low ceilings. People aren't going to pull out ROB(in)s and Luigis and DKs specifically for Halberd, they'll just ban the stage against vertical killers.

People picking this stage against vertical killers are being reckless, hoping that their character gets more from the low ceiling. It's dumb to pick this stage against ZSS... most of the time.

 

[Ghostbone]

Hasn't happened yet though.
Although I'm not sure either if the stage should be legal. As a ZSS main, picking this stage against me is a death wish.

I mean, that's because halberd is a required ban for most of the cast.

If you took halberd (and probably delfino) off the stagelist you could go down to 1 stage ban and actually have more stage diversity. Because currently those two stages are so polarising they require stage bans almost every set.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I mean, that's because halberd is a required ban for most of the cast.

If you took halberd (and probably delfino) off the stagelist you could go down to 1 stage ban and actually have more stage diversity. Because currently those two stages are so polarising they require stage bans almost every set.

Delfino too? Didn't know that. Halberd was kinda obvious though, yeah.

 

[Xeze]

All these legal stages, yet people go to Smashville 80% of the time.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

How many characters are dangerous on Halberd due to the low ceiling? If it's a significant portion of the cast then there may be room to argue that hoohah becomes a centralizing strategy, similar to circle camping on Temple. But where do we draw the line? 25%? 50%? 90%?

 

[Ghostbone]

How many characters are dangerous on Halberd due to the low ceiling? If it's a significant portion of the cast then there may be room to argue that hoohah becomes a centralizing strategy, similar to circle camping on Temple. But where do we draw the line? 25%? 50%? 90%?

It only matters among viable characters
Of those, Mario gets up-b kills off the top (from uair strings) he wouldn't get on any other stage (though he should still ban it out of fear or the next 6 characters), luigi cyclone is super dumb, we all know about rosalina, diddy has up-throw up-air at kill %s here, sheik has guaranteed d-throw up-air kills which she doesn't get anywhere else, ZSS is obvious, MK is obvious.
Niche characters like DK will kill you at 50 here, probably Ike too?

Amusingly it's many of the top tiers that benefit the most from Halberd's low ceiling because of their vertical KO options. It just forces everyone to ban Halberd against them (and generally if you're one of them, order of precedence is roughly Rosa > ZSS > MK > everyone else, if you're lower on the list you're forced to ban Halberd).

I don't see any reason to include polarising stages that almost always pull a ban. You might as well ban the stages outright and reduce the amount of stage bans.
Like we don't include temple and just give people an extra stage ban for when they're against a faster character.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

All these legal stages, yet people go to Smashville 80% of the time.

This is a prevailing bad habit that will disappear over time.

It only matters among viable characters
Of those, Mario gets up-b kills off the top (from uair strings) he wouldn't get on any other stage (though he should still ban it out of fear or the next 6 characters), luigi cyclone is super dumb, we all know about rosalina, diddy has up-throw up-air at kill %s here, sheik has guaranteed d-throw up-air kills which she doesn't get anywhere else, ZSS is obvious, MK is obvious.
Niche characters like DK will kill you at 50 here, probably Ike too?

Amusingly it's many of the top tiers that benefit the most from Halberd's low ceiling because of their vertical KO options. It just forces everyone to ban Halberd against them (and generally if you're one of them, order of precedence is roughly Rosa > ZSS > MK > everyone else, if you're lower on the list you're forced to ban Halberd).

I don't see any reason to include polarising stages that almost always pull a ban. You might as well ban the stages outright and reduce the amount of stage bans.
Like we don't include temple and just give people an extra stage ban for when they're against a faster character.

Ike definitely as well. His uAir is amazing.
Thing is if you have two characters facing each other that profit from the low ceiling and you end up playing on it, isn't that a good thing? especially when we have quite a number of high tier characters that actually profit from it. Or take a low tier character for example that has a hoo hah as well, wouldn't he still like to play on halberd to increase the chances with quick kills against a high tier character?

 

[Illuminose]

Rosalina, Sheik, Luigi, Diddy Kong, R.O.B., Meta Knight, Fox, Falcon, Yoshi, Zero Suit, DK, Mario, Robin.

At least this list of characters gains a ridiculous amount from Halberd's low ceiling. Note that this includes much of the top 10 and of that the top 3/4.

 

[FairyLip]

So, I know this is unthinkable, but should Smashville be considered for a counterpick? Sheik's edgeguards are insane on it, and if an opponent with a strong grab manages to get you on the platform, they could easily pull a pseudo-walkoff throw.

I don't really think it should be, but I just want to play Devil's Advocate here.

 

[Xeze]

Smashville is good as a starter. People just need to learn stage striking and counterpicking.

 

[Infinite901]

Rosalina, Sheik, Luigi, Diddy Kong, R.O.B., Meta Knight, Fox, Falcon, Yoshi, Zero Suit, DK, Mario, Robin.

At least this list of characters gains a ridiculous amount from Halberd's low ceiling. Note that this includes much of the top 10 and of that the top 3/4.

Mega Man? Mr. Game and Watch? Palutena? Ike? Ness? Lucas? Shulk? Link? Toon Link? Sonic? Wario? Greninja? Mii Gunner? Duck Hunt? A lot of characters have good uairs that can benefit from a low ceiling.

 

[FairyLip]

Again, I completely agree. I just think it's good to bring up points that the community might not always consider, including ones that are, well, less-than-perfect.

 

[Ghostbone]

Thing is if you have two characters facing each other that profit from the low ceiling and you end up playing on it, isn't that a good thing? especially when we have quite a number of high tier characters that actually profit from it. Or take a low tier character for example that has a hoo hah as well, wouldn't he still like to play on halberd to increase the chances with quick kills against a high tier character?

It's not a good thing.
Games where both characters kill stupidly early lead to high variance in results, which is the opposite of what we want for tournaments. Same reason we have walk-offs banned.
Might as well legalise gamer as it gives low tiers a higher chance to beat top tiers because of variance.


Re: Smashville, can we get off this sheik hype train. Sheik can abuse any aspect of a stage you can think off. I know Zero rates Battlefield and FD far higher (FD because needles are way better than any smashville platform gimmicks, Battlefield because the platforms lead to tipper u-smash and set up easy traps for her in general) In a 5 stage starter list it's often correct to strike to smashville vs Sheik. Counter-picking Sheik to smashville is fine too, you probably don't want to deal with Sheik on Castle Siege/delfino due to walk-off fair chains, or halberd because d-throw > upair, and lylat is awkard for most characters. Unless you benefit from a low ceiling there's no point taking her to town and city either because it's FD for a lot of the time and she kills vertically.

 

[thehard]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

~THE FUTURE OF SMASH STAGE LISTS~

What was the pace at which Melee's and Brawl's legal stage selection thinned?

Also I think the Halberd ceiling is the worst aspect of the stage, then the stage lips on the ship section, and then the hazards.

 

[Ghostbone]

RIP Castle Siege.
Tbh I'd like that stage list with Castle Siege + maybe Wuhu. Halberd and Delfino are definitely lasting past their time tbh.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So, I know this is unthinkable, but should Smashville be considered for a counterpick? Sheik's edgeguards are insane on it, and if an opponent with a strong grab manages to get you on the platform, they could easily pull a pseudo-walkoff throw.

I don't really think it should be, but I just want to play Devil's Advocate here.

No stage is Neutral, and most people here are advocates of FLSS. In general, players tend to take poor decisions to take Sheik (and other bunch of characters that are good there) to Smashville, often costing them games. So, Smashville is a valid Starter just as any other playable stage, as good as an effectively advantageous Couterpick option.
Smart usage of stages, stage strike and bans would help keeping it on check, but.... it's not really happening.


About Halberd, if the Stage is good for a huge amount of the cast, doesn't that alone balance it out?

 

[Ghostbone]

Good for top tiers specifically, and of those top tiers, it's good for a select few far more than the rest.

I mean nobody's really worried about DK on Halberd (well they probably should, but he's not unbalanced still), but DK was never the issue.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

~THE FUTURE OF SMASH STAGE LISTS~

What was the pace at which Melee's and Brawl's legal stage selection thinned?

Also I think the Halberd ceiling is the worst aspect of the stage, then the stage lips on the ship section, and then the hazards.

Why do we even pretend to care what ZeRo has to say about Smash 4 meta? He's the top player. It's literally in his best interest to stagnate the advancement of the meta. Any thing he ever says about stage legality of customs should be taken with a massive grain of salt. I have said it before and I'll say it again. As good as he is at Smash 4, he's gonna be bad for it in the long run.

Unfortunatly, stage liberals have lost SoCal. Sorry guys, we tried

 

[ぱみゅ]

Socal and NY/NJ are pretty much lost causes.
Same with Japan and some places in Europe.

 

[thehard]

Why do we even pretend to care what ZeRo has to say about Smash 4 meta? He's the top player. It's literally in his best interest to stagnate the advancement of the meta. Any thing he ever says about stage legality of customs should be taken with a massive grain of salt. I have said it before and I'll say it again. As good as he is at Smash 4, he's gonna be bad for it in the long run.

Unfortunatly, stage liberals have lost SoCal. Sorry guys, we tried

I don't care, but you know many others do.

 

[Ghostbone]

Why do we even pretend to care what ZeRo has to say about Smash 4 meta? He's the top player. It's literally in his best interest to stagnate the advancement of the meta. Any thing he ever says about stage legality of customs should be taken with a massive grain of salt. I have said it before and I'll say it again. As good as he is at Smash 4, he's gonna be bad for it in the long run.

Unfortunatly, stage liberals have lost SoCal. Sorry guys, we tried

Wow all that Zero hate.
He's just a person, saying he's bad for the game in the long run is ridiculous. He's pushing the metagame for his two mains more than anyone else, (and in turn, forcing other top players to push the metagames of their characters immensely to keep up).
Stagnating the advancement of the meta? Are you ****ing serious. Do you even understand what you're saying lol. As I just explained, Zero's advancing the meta faster than anyone else. Individual stage properties don't compare to the intricacies of character matchups and mindgames and what not.

This is the stage thread not the custom debate thread, but Zero's opinion on customs is shared by most top players. And it's not like they don't want to/can't deal with customs, pretty sure every player in top 8 of evo is against customs, yet they still win in that environment.

Like I personally don't agree with the stagelist (RIP castle siege mostly) but I don't attack people who do lol.

 

[19_]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

~THE FUTURE OF SMASH STAGE LISTS~

What was the pace at which Melee's and Brawl's legal stage selection thinned?

Also I think the Halberd ceiling is the worst aspect of the stage, then the stage lips on the ship section, and then the hazards.

I honestly like that list except one thing.

One ban is really disgusting. Many characters will downright suffer for against top tiers when it comes to having breathing room ESPECIALLY Little Mac. Poor guy has to waste his strike on duck hunt every time. Not to mention sheik + smashvile is almost rosa + halberd bad which gives sheik the upper hand if there is only one ban.

That being said halberd and delfino getting banned does not surprise but I'm actually cool with in the case that the rng and low ceilings really hurt those stages in the long run, But castle siege? That stage does the same thing every time! I guess walkoffs are kind of polarizing with 2 bans as sheik exist but its not like the walkoff is there forever.

This stage list is ok but + castle siege + one more ban would work much better as stage list.

Or maybe just one more ban... I guess I'm fine with no castle siege just because people hate temporary walkoffs and transformations. I just feels off banning a stage that seems perfectly fine because of certain philosophies.

I'm at least happy they have five starters.

 

[webbedspace]

Let's take the discussion away from what ZeRo thinks and see what the person authoring the stage list thinks:

@TSMZeRo @KeitaroTime @LarryLurr Yeah dude, I've been working forever behind the scenes on fixing the stage list. 2 bans ain't needed no mo'

— D1 (@xD1x) August 5, 2015

Regarding Delfino (and by extension the other 2 missing transforming stages):

@LarryLurr @TheRapture_ @KeitaroTime it may look pretty but the transition KOs aren't cool. Same for walk off jank. Silly stage had to go.

— D1 (@xD1x) August 4, 2015

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Let's take the discussion away from what ZeRo thinks and see what the person authoring the stage list thinks:

@TSMZeRo @KeitaroTime @LarryLurr Yeah dude, I've been working forever behind the scenes on fixing the stage list. 2 bans ain't needed no mo'

— D1 (@xD1x) August 5, 2015

Regarding Delfino (and by extension the other 2 missing transforming stages):

@LarryLurr @TheRapture_ @KeitaroTime it may look pretty but the transition KOs aren't cool. Same for walk off jank. Silly stage had to go.

— D1 (@xD1x) August 4, 2015

well that was a KO punch to the face for anyone who likes those 3 stages.

 

[FairyLip]

Wait, we have only one person authoring the entire stage list?

 

[Illuminose]

nah, it's not like D1 actually did stuff without consulting people. A lot of players don't like those stages and D1 is a community leader that wrote a ruleset to accommodate.

 

[FairyLip]

Ah, okay, good.

I still think we need a clearer version of Sm4sh leadership, though. It feels very opaque, weird, and disorganized now.

 

[Xeze]

Not surprised, honestly.
But it feels like that we are here discussing something, and then people outside do a completely different thing. Like two different worlds.

Socal and NY/NJ are pretty much lost causes.
Same with Japan and some places in Europe.

Here in Portugal we still have the usual 5 starters, with Lylat, Halberd, Delfino, Duck Hunt and Castle Siege as counterpicks.

 

[Kel]

The game needs more than 5 starters. The 5 starters all cater to the same type of character and there is no real variety in the stages. Overswarm has a very good youtube video on why this is important https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH_LUdkfkY

Also, since this is the stage legality discussion thread, could someone inform me why Skyloft is banned? I've played on the stage many times and seen others play on it and I have not noticed any anti-competitive issues; especially when compared to stages such as Delfino, Halberd, and Castle Siege. If there is an actual reason to ban the stage I would like to know it. Thanks.

 

[Illuminose]

The game needs more than 5 starters. The 5 starters all cater to the same type of character and there is no real variety in the stages. Overswarm has a very good youtube video on why this is important https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH_LUdkfkY

Also, since this is the stage legality discussion thread, could someone inform me why Skyloft is banned? I've played on the stage many times and seen others play on it and I have not noticed any anti-competitive issues; especially when compared to stages such as Delfino, Halberd, and Castle Siege. If there is an actual reason to ban the stage I would like to know it. Thanks.

I don't really understand your gripe with 5 starters. With the following list:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Town & City
Dreamland 64

We have two heavily platform-based stages, one completely flat stage, one medium (Smashville), and one fairly flat stage with some platform elements (Town & City). We have stages with higher ceilings (Battlefield being the highest and FD second) and stages with lower ceilings (Town & City being the lowest and Smashville somewhat low as well). We have longer stages and shorter stages. What exactly are we missing for a balanced starter list?

I'd be wary of comparing stages to Delfino/Halberd/Siege in terms of 'how bad' they are. Certain regions either don't have these legal already (SoCal, some of Europe, Japan) or are considering dropping them (Tristate). That list is pretty much all of the big Smash 4 regions (as in concentration of talent) except Florida which idk what's happening there. That said, Skyloft suffers from a lot of...weird...issues. Trying to come up with another word for them, but that's all I could come up with. The way the stage hurts players and places where it does are very awkward and non-intuitive. An anecdote of mine is forward smashing a Falco with Sheik in Training Mode and the Falco hitting a part of the island that was in the middle of the screen and getting hit to his death off that. The stage will also save people who have been successfully edgeguarded in specific instances. Not random, but difficult to keep track of and non-obvious in many cases. There are also ways to get trapped in the geometry of the stage during transformations and instantly die. There's a bunch of transformations with walkoffs and layouts that promote camping as well.

 

[Kel]

The gripe is that it all caters to the same type of character. This is referenced in the video I linked. More variety in a starter list gives the opportunity for a more-fair 1st stage. BTW, Dreamland has a super low ceiling.

I'm looking at your Skyloft paragraph and I'm seeing the same thing I have heard from others; not a lot of sense. "the stage hurts players" is anecdotal as all stages add to or hinder a character. Duck hunt is amazing for MK because he can uthrow near the left side of the stage and get early kills. Halberd is good for characters that want to kill off the top (mentioned in this thread in the above posts). Smashville's ballon can actually kill Ness if it spawns when he is trying to up B.

The island does become a hitbox at certain times throughout the stage, but I do not see how this is any different than Halberd's laser or canon. It's very telegraphed as you can see when it's coming. Furthermore, you can actually tech the island.

The only instance I know of people going through the stage architecture is the following video https://youtu.be/Owipzt9jPsY?t=16m46s . As you can see, the MK purposely went off the right side of the ledge before the transformation was complete. He was able to make it back to the ledge with no problem.

Lastly, the stage does not promote camping any more than any other stage as the transformations only last 10 seconds each. If a section is unfavorable for your character it's easy to just wait for the moving platform.

I'm still having trouble seeing why Skyloft is banned in most places but people seem to think Delfino is fine. Delfino actually adds water to the competitive scene- that's an entirely different mechanic than what you would use on any other stage (including Skyloft if it were legal). Delfino has "campy transformations" just like Skyloft, except Delfino also has super low ceilings during some of its transformations (Skyloft does not). Delfino has all of the same ingredients that Skyloft has and more, but for some reason Delfino is on and Skyloft is off. It just doesn't make sense to me. I was wondering if there was some kind of super glitch on Skyloft or something that made the stage bad for competitive play, but so far all I've heard is "it's weird, trust me" (Illuminoise is not the first person to defend their stance with calling the stage weird).

I'm cool with banning stages that are bad for competition, I just haven't seen any evidence thusfar to ban Skyloft. Especially when compared with other legal stages such as Delfino.

 

[Ulevo]

The gripe is that it all caters to the same type of character. This is referenced in the video I linked. More variety in a starter list gives the opportunity for a more-fair 1st stage. BTW, Dreamland has a super low ceiling.

I'm looking at your Skyloft paragraph and I'm seeing the same thing I have heard from others; not a lot of sense. "the stage hurts players" is anecdotal as all stages add to or hinder a character. Duck hunt is amazing for MK because he can uthrow near the left side of the stage and get early kills. Halberd is good for characters that want to kill off the top (mentioned in this thread in the above posts). Smashville's ballon can actually kill Ness if it spawns when he is trying to up B.

The island does become a hitbox at certain times throughout the stage, but I do not see how this is any different than Halberd's laser or canon. It's very telegraphed as you can see when it's coming. Furthermore, you can actually tech the island.

The only instance I know of people going through the stage architecture is the following video https://youtu.be/Owipzt9jPsY?t=16m46s . As you can see, the MK purposely went off the right side of the ledge before the transformation was complete. He was able to make it back to the ledge with no problem.

Lastly, the stage does not promote camping any more than any other stage as the transformations only last 10 seconds each. If a section is unfavorable for your character it's easy to just wait for the moving platform.

I'm still having trouble seeing why Skyloft is banned in most places but people seem to think Delfino is fine. Delfino actually adds water to the competitive scene- that's an entirely different mechanic than what you would use on any other stage (including Skyloft if it were legal). Delfino has "campy transformations" just like Skyloft, except Delfino also has super low ceilings during some of its transformations (Skyloft does not). Delfino has all of the same ingredients that Skyloft has and more, but for some reason Delfino is on and Skyloft is off. It just doesn't make sense to me. I was wondering if there was some kind of super glitch on Skyloft or something that made the stage bad for competitive play, but so far all I've heard is "it's weird, trust me" (Illuminoise is not the first person to defend their stance with calling the stage weird).

I'm cool with banning stages that are bad for competition, I just haven't seen any evidence thusfar to ban Skyloft. Especially when compared with other legal stages such as Delfino.

Dreamland's ceiling is not low. It is just lower than Battlefields. There is a difference.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well I did ask both D1 and Zero on Twitter to come here and talk shop a bit, maybe we'll get lucky and they'll talk about their own opinions on stages and such in here soon.

 

[Luigi player]

Dreamland has the same height as Final Destination.

What Kel probably means is more stages where jank can happen, making bad characters seem more viable, because the fight is more random.

 

[Seiniyta]

Dreamland has the same height as Final Destination.

What Kel probably means is more stages where jank can happen, making bad characters seem more viable, because the fight is more random.

I think because Dreamland has platforms the ceilings seems way lower, and it is when you get hit on the platforms offstage.

 

[Krysco]

Whoring myself out a bit here but since people are talking about Skyloft, I figured I'd link to this video again:

Once you play on Skyloft enough, it becomes second nature where the hazards will be. I'm actually somewhat surprised that Wuhu seems to get more attention for being legal than Skyloft. Wuhu has the bridge and the fountain formations which both make approaching difficult similar to the fire form of PS1 and unlike Delfino and Skyloft, the platform doesn't wait for you at all. You get that warning arrow that the platform is about to come up and you better be on that platform fast, like almost Halberd's beginning fast.

I suppose one of the issues is that Wuhu's hazards are obvious and noticeable: the water, the boat and...a balloon randomly. Skyloft on the other hand just has scenery that comes and goes and unless you spend an hour jumping into stuff like I did or spend a large amount of matches there, you won't know where the hazards are.

 

[Pazx]

If people are sticking with 5 stages I want to push forward something that my region has been doing since the game's release.

Starter Stages:
Battlefield
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Town and City
Final Destination

With the release of Dream Land 64, everyone just thought "Great! We have a 5th starter! No more Lylat!" but this attitude ignores the fact that the fixes to Lylat (no more ledge jank!) and the overall design of the two stages makes Lylat (imo) a more balanced starter in this list. Here's why.

If we simplify the stage list to a spectrum, from BF-esque to FD-esque it looks something like this:

BF-Miiverse--DL64--------------------Lylat Cruise------Smashville-----------Town and City--------------------Omegas-FD

Lylat isn't really a tri-plat in the vein of BF, the low platforms make it a slightly more horizontally-focused stage, I think of the stage as very similar to Smashville in that regard. Everyone agreed that Miiverse was too similar to BF to be considered it's own stage, but DL64 is a great stage with meaningful differences. That said, it still is very similar to BF, especially when compared to the rest of a 5 starter stage list, so while it's not redundant to the point of banning like Miiverse I think it is too similar to BF to be in a small starter list with it. Unless your character is Charizard or something, most characters will be almost equally happy to strike to BF and DL64 game one. Having Lylat as a starter stage provides a lot more depth, in my opinion. It's different enough to the other stages to the point where it's unlikely that every character that has BF as their first choice has Lylat as their second choice, whereas with DL64 the characters preferences would probably go DL/BF > T&C/SV > FD or vice versa.

Post-patch Lylat is a good stage. I'd be inclined to say it has less "cheese" than DL64 now. The tilting can be somewhat annoying but I don't view it as bad or counterpick-worthy, when compared to DL's high platform(s) I think it's clear to see which stage is actually more polarising. If Lylat didn't tilt it would be popular opinion that it makes for a great starter and a more balanced starter list, but because it tilts and used to **** with recoveries people are scared of it. Alternatively, we could just use 9 starters and not have this discussion, but popular opinion dictates that Wuhu and Skyloft will never take off as starters whilst common sense shows that Halberd and Delfino shouldn't really be starters either.

Pls spare a thought for all the Little Mac mains who would have to start on BF every single set with DL as a starter.

 

[Fuerzo]

A. 3 out of 5 Melee starters have three platforms arranged in the BF design (sometimes 4 with FoD). They're all still considered different enough to all be on the starter list. Dream Land, while very different from its Melee incarnation, still has major differences from Battlefield--platform size and shape, ceiling, and the wind effect. While Lylat (which I personally really like) no longer has ledge jank, it does still have the tilting effect which can be obstructive. The stagelist that Socal is using now (BF/FD/DL/SV/T&C as starters, Lylat/Duck Hunt as CPs) seems best IMO. Hope we get more legal stages as DLC.

 

[epicnights]

Melee doesn't necessarily make the best basis for deciding smash 4 legal stages, their engines are too wildly different. In addition, the Melee stages had much larger variance in blastzones with those stages.

Sure, Melee had three BF-esque stages. But they didn't really have much of a choice. With Smash 4, we have nearly 10 with the Apex Rulesets, plus 3 to 5 other stages that should be made legal, depending to who you talk to. We could - and should - use this increased selection to make a more diverse starter list. (Personally I prefer FLSS, but that's not the point of this post )

 

[Fuerzo]

Sure, Melee had three BF-esque stages. But they didn't really have much of a choice. With Smash 4, we have nearly 10 with the Apex Rulesets, plus 3 to 5 other stages that should be made legal, depending to who you talk to. We could - and should - use this increased selection to make a more diverse starter list. (Personally I prefer FLSS, but that's not the point of this post )

In my experience, FLSS just means you see people gentleman to Smashville even more often.