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Stage Info Repository & Discussion

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鉄腕
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4 Players turn them off? That sounds weird, not that I can try it...

Have noticed that in order to record footage, Clash Tounaments has been using 3 Players with the one with the recorder killing themselves at the start of the match. I don't see it being much of a stretch adding in a 2nd player that kills themselves.
 

Venus of the Desert Bloom

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That is certainly an interesting find. Could potentially change how we deal with stage ban lists in Doubles play at least for some of the stages.
 
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Krynxe

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The 3ds version of the game had some clear issues with lag that needed to be addressed with things such as reducing non-player fps to 30, removal of Ice Climbers, etc. It comes no surprise to me that these hazards are turned off with four players: to remove potential sources of lag. That's my hypothesis, anyways.

I'm glad some of these stages may be viable in doubles do to this. Rainbow Road would probably be my favorite stage in this game if it weren't for those pesky Shy Guys.
 

Overswarm

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Played on this stage list this weekend, all pools event:

Starters:
Prism Tower
Battlefield
FD
Arena Ferox
Yoshi's Island Brawl

CPs:
Brinstar
Corneria
3D Land
Reset Bomb Forest
Tomadachi Life


Times used in the final pool of six:
3D Land - 1
Arena Ferox -4
Battlefield - 10
Brinstar -5
Final Destination - 4
Prism Tower - 3
Reset Bomb Forest -1
Yoshi's Island - 10

Starters:
Most common starters were Battlefield and Yoshi's Island Brawl. Prism Tower and FD were used occasionally, Arena Ferox used slightly less. Both Arena and FD were used commonly as CPs for some characters. That said, people discovered during the tournament that Sheik's recovery is bonkers on Yoshi's Island so I don't think it would get quite so many starts in the future.

All in all I think this starter list is working out well.

CPs:

Brinstar was fine, was a good CP. Discovered that Bowser can use his over-b to actually knock someone through the bubbles that seperate that stage (!). All in all was a good stage.

Corneria was fine. Rarely played in singles, more in doubles. Anyone who tried to camp in the fin area got wrecked because the moment someone gets hit into the fin they can tech and punish. It's a surprisingly good stage now, although I could see this changing in the future. I really like how walls in this game work.

Reset Bomb Forest was kiiiiiiiind of fine, but had strong signs of degenerative gameplay. You can pseudo-circle camp in the first section and there is a jungle japes style platform in the lower left where anyone approaching is basically going to get shield grabbed no matter what. It'll likely be removed from my future events, sadly. :(

3D Land was mostly fine and then all of the sudden NOT fine. Most of the "tense" moments came from the initial scrolling section and it had similar problems that we've seen on walkoffs. Sonic b-throw killing at 30% and the like. Will likely be removed from future events.

Tomadachi Life was a fantastic CP. Some people complained about the possibility of circle camping, but we tried for like half an hour and no one could even remotely do it. Camping above an opponent that can access you is a recipe for disaster. All around a fantastic CP.


Omega stages weren't used very often. When they were it was just to get FD with walls or to go to Brinstar for a shorter ceiling.

There aren't really any other CPs for me to potentially add to further events except Rainbow Road, which we know the issues of already. It's an awesome stage, but borderline. It will likely be a doubles only CP in the future. Reset Bomb Forest might be one of those as well.


If you'd like to see data from the final pool:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20676635/Smash 4/Player and Character Rankings - OS House 1.xlsx

Results thread (shows characters):
http://smashboards.com/threads/overswarms-house-tournament-1.372872/
 

SamuraiPanda

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Did you run with the rules that FD = Omega and banning FD bans all Omegas?

And your comments reflect the general feelings I'm getting from players in my area as well. Tomodachi life and Brinstar are the only CPs they are overly interested in (I'm in a conservative area). Interesting findings about Corneria though. I'll see if I can't convince them to shake up stage selection just for the Weekly events. Only having 4 stages makes stage selection kinda suck.

Oh what were the impressions of Ferox? People in the area don't like the idea of it because they say it'll be too campy so they haven't even bothered trying it...
 
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Overswarm

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Ferox lasted about 1 and a half minutes longer (additional 22.5 seconds per stock) for some matches, for others it had no impact. It was a positively received stage overall.

Teching in this game is different -- you have an advantage after you tech most attacks. If someone grabs and f-throws you into a wall, you can often tech -> fair.

I liken it to PS1. I personally prefer it when playing as a heavy as my combo ability is typically low, but on Ferox I can position myself to throw them into the wall and combo against that. There's really only one transformation that I've seen as campy (the one with 3 destructable platforms), the rest didn't really have any campy aspects to it.
 

Krynxe

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I feel like Tomodachi life would be a nightmare for characters like Bowser, Little Mac and DK. Circle camping will most likely be a character specific issue, but I definitely think it will be present. It's good to hear that you guys had success using it without problem though, but I think it's going to need more conclusive evidence/testing before we give it an okay. I'll try to play some people in my area on these stages and provide more first-hand feedback, but otherwise good stuff Overswarm. :)

And yeah I agree with Reset Bomb Forest and 3D Land not being allowed for the obvious reasons.
 

Overswarm

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I'm pretty sure Tomadachi Life is little Mac's best stage.

I highly suggest you play on Tomadachi Life and attempt to circle camp. Against even a halfway competent player it should not be possible. It's like saying you can camp on the lower platforms on Battlefield -- you'd just get wrecked.

I'm really confused why everyone keeps saying this. Literally no one hast experienced circle camping on this stage, yet everyone seems to think it's going to be a thing. No one has taken twenty minutes to play some matches on this stage to even get an idea? O_o

And yeah I agree with Reset Bomb Forest and 3D Land not being allowed for the obvious reasons.
The reasons weren't obvious. The reasons stated by everyone about Reset Bomb Forest weren't even actual issues!
 

SamuraiPanda

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I have moved from a region with one of the most liberal stagelists in the country to a region where one player in a discussion about CP stages literally says "There's no need for counterpicks imo. We should just have the legal stages and let random selection take its place."

*sigh* There's work to be done here.

By the way, some players point out that there are many shenanigans that can be had on Corneria by characters like Ness and Villager. While I think thats a great reason to simply ban Corneria vs those characters, I was wondering if anyone had any insight into what those shenanigans may be besides the standard Ness-healing-on-top-of-the-arwing deal. Between my job, my game, and trying to find a main through For Glory, I haven't had the time to test out stages yet.
 

Krynxe

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I'm pretty sure Tomadachi Life is little Mac's best stage.
Definitely not.
The reasons weren't obvious. The reasons stated by everyone about Reset Bomb Forest weren't even actual issues!
I don't know what other people were saying, but the reasons were obvious to me lol. 3D Land is a walk-off for far too long, and reset Bomb Forest for pretty much exactly the reasons you stated. The hazards are probably all people immediately thought about, but those aren't the primary issues as I see it.
It's like saying "ban peach because of the black hole glitch"
Literally what?
1. SamuraiPanda is referring to removing a stage, not a character
2. If you're referring to Hyrule Temple, that's already banned anyways
3. Items aren't allowed in competitive play anyways
4. That glitch requires more than two people
5. And requires team attack being off
6. And cooperation from opposite teams

That has absolutely nothing to do with why Corneria might be a problematic stage whatsoever. If you're an advocate of being open-minded about stages, than actually try to discuss some criticism as well rather than blowing people off with irrelevant similes.

@ SamuraiPanda SamuraiPanda The stage is also a huge problem against Game & Watch, giving him a filled bucket with insta-kill capability. Characters can also camp very easily on this stage. It's been banned in every smash game thus far for a reason, I don't see it coming back for this version when all of the primary problems still exist.
 

SamuraiPanda

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@ SamuraiPanda SamuraiPanda The stage is also a huge problem against Game & Watch, giving him a filled bucket with insta-kill capability. Characters can also camp very easily on this stage. It's been banned in every smash game thus far for a reason, I don't see it coming back for this version when all of the primary problems still exist.
In my limited understanding, the primary reason Corneria was banned was that fin camping was too strong, correct? Well there are new mechanics in 4 that could potentially make fin camping not quite as strong. That said, still could be powerful to the extent that it dominates the match. Throw in that and the hazards that make all sorts of weird plays possible and I feel like Corneria probably isn't the best stage to include. But I don't have hard evidence to prove this point yet.
 

Ishiey

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Cool results. I assume the data gathered for 3D Land and RBF involve more than the one game you recorded in the final pool? I may try a tournament with the same stagelist but those two stages removed, Corneria in particular catches my interest for further testing.
 

Krynxe

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@ SamuraiPanda SamuraiPanda
In regards to Corneria, first and foremost the stage hugely advantages certain characters like Ness, G&W, Palutena and Villager. (Palutena is able to camp on the blaster and under the fin and hit people with usmash through the stage itself on both places, the other characters can simply take/absorb the stage hazards for their benefit) There are likely other characters who will be able to abuse both the blaster and wall. Also, this version of Corneria seems to have a much more aggressive hazard in which explosions spawn and can kill players at extremely low percents (I've seen as low as 25%). These explosions can also cause the game to lag,

We should also keep in mind the randomness of the stage in mind, as that is an aspect general frowned upon when trying to decide the superior player in a competitive match. When such a factor is outside the control of the players involved (i.e. tripping) it becomes frustrating and allows matches to be determined by luck at times. This is a big issue on Corneria because the stage is capable of killing you at incredibly low percents with very little notice (often unreactable when doing anything with endlag when it happens.)

reposting this here also
On a similar note, the other main issue with Jungle Japes is that it inherently disadvantages certain characters more than others due to the stage simply shutting down certain recoveries. For instance, a character like Game & Watch will almost never be able to recover straight to the ledge on this stage because his recovery is extremely vertical and the distance between the ledge and water is too small. Even when pixels above the water, G&W goes significantly past the ledge when using his upB making him constantly and extremely susceptible to being hit back off the stage - and this is the case for several more characters.

I think one of the primary factors when deciding on the legality of stages should be whether or not the stage hugely advantages or disadvantages certain characters. Due to the stage being segmented and the water being present so close below the stage, I think this stage will be problematic for some of the cast and should thus not be allowed in competitive play.

(Testing, however, is still required just as it should be for any rule before it becomes solidified!) :)
 

Overswarm

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Definitely not.
Do you have much experience on this stage? We've got a couple little Mac players here and he can't be effectively edgeguarded on Tomadachi Life, but he dies after being thrown off stage in any other.

Literally what?
1. SamuraiPanda is referring to removing a stage, not a character
2. If you're referring to Hyrule Temple, that's already banned anyways
3. Items aren't allowed in competitive play anyways
4. That glitch requires more than two people
5. And requires team attack being off
6. And cooperation from opposite teams

That has absolutely nothing to do with why Corneria might be a problematic stage whatsoever. If you're an advocate of being open-minded about stages, than actually try to discuss some criticism as well rather than blowing people off with irrelevant similes.
Have you tried replicating this glitch?

It requires deliberate setup by both players to look effective, or at the very least a mindless opponent. If there's a way this could actually be used offensively against anyone who knows it exists, I haven't seen it yet.

[/quote]@ SamuraiPanda SamuraiPanda The stage is also a huge problem against Game & Watch, giving him a filled bucket with insta-kill capability. Characters can also camp very easily on this stage. It's been banned in every smash game thus far for a reason, I don't see it coming back for this version when all of the primary problems still exist.[/quote]

It's primary issues were the cave of life effect in the fin area and camping the fin; neither of which are applicable or have been issues in tournament when played against smashers that have been playing for years. I wouldn't be surprised if an issue comes into play later in the games life, but I wouldn't ban a stage simply because previous games in the series banned it.
 

Overswarm

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@ SamuraiPanda SamuraiPanda
In regards to Corneria, first and foremost the stage hugely advantages certain characters like Ness, G&W, Palutena and Villager. (Palutena is able to camp on the blaster and under the fin and hit people with usmash through the stage itself on both places, the other characters can simply take/absorb the stage hazards for their benefit) There are likely other characters who will be able to abuse both the blaster and wall. Also, this version of Corneria seems to have a much more aggressive hazard in which explosions spawn and can kill players at extremely low percents (I've seen as low as 25%). These explosions can also cause the game to lag,
Is this hugely advantageous? Have we seen this occur in tournaments, or is this conjecture based on limited information?

So far the only "hugely advantageous" stage I've seen has been Little Mac on FD, as compared to his efforts on other stages.

We should also keep in mind the randomness of the stage in mind, as that is an aspect general frowned upon when trying to decide the superior player in a competitive match. When such a factor is outside the control of the players involved (i.e. tripping) it becomes frustrating and allows matches to be determined by luck at times. This is a big issue on Corneria because the stage is capable of killing you at incredibly low percents with very little notice (often unreactable when doing anything with endlag when it happens.)
Randomness has never been frowned upon in the smash series. Chaos, yes, but not randomness. Yoshi's Island (Melee and Brawl) have had a randomized effect on results for years, but no one pays it much mind. It's more an issue of "does the player know this will happen' and if so 'can the player use this information to his advantage in some facet".
 

Dabuz

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Tomadachi, Magicant, (being serious btw; the flying men are on a timer and easy to kill), Unova Pokemon League, Prism tower, Mute City and Brinstar are playable IMO. Arena Ferox is good for dubz.
 

Raziek

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I don't agree with Magicant at all.

Unova I could give some more testing. I was surprised to see both NickRiddle and yourself advocate it, so maybe it's worth a second look.

I agree on the others though, though I'll note that I think Ferox is also plenty playable for Singles, and OS's data supports exactly what I expected on that point.
 

Overswarm

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I tested Magicant some, I found the optimal strategy was to camp the Flying Man area until you could throw your opponent away. Then you were essentially "rewarded" by getting the flying man. The flying man itself is easy to kill, the issue is more being attacked by him and then in hitlag or while your move is out being hit by the opponent. It's playable, but its a subsect of skill.

Unova was fine until it turned upside down. It is rare, but apparently a thing. -_-;;

Mute City is playable in its entirety except that grab release -> floor combos are possible and incredibly easy to do. When we played I'd camp the cars on the bottom and just grab release them into the floor. It was pretty fun.
 

Krynxe

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There was actually a match at the nintendo national just last weekend where a rosalina player literally just sat at the platform where the Flying Man spawns and camped there, using Luma to make it exceedingly difficult to stop him from doing so. Once Flying Man was on his side, he would approach the other player and make it very difficult for him. Either focus on Flying Man and be attacked by the human player, or try to avoid/fight the human player and be constantly harassed by Flying Man. Overall, it's just too much shenanigans for a high profile match

Unova definitely seemed to have some hazard issues, but I'll try it out some more and give some real feedback soon. Mute City I'm still a bit mixed on, but it's worth trying out until we start seeing some serious problems with it imo. I'm generally not a fan of a stage that removes an avenue of how people die (being unable to die off the bottom), but the punishment for touching the bottom is fair enough and the stage is otherwise predictable and fair. if grab release combos or something else becomes over-centralizing though, then there will be problems
 

Overswarm

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Mute City was used in a Lexington, KY tournament -- no jank reported, but people "disliked" the stage.
 

Zigsta

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Brinstar was fine, was a good CP. Discovered that Bowser can use his over-b to actually knock someone through the bubbles that seperate that stage (!). All in all was a good stage.
I was wondering if that would work. The bubbles seem to get destroyed much easier now--Bowser Bomb goes through it now. The slam portion of Bowser's side B is also a LOT stronger now. In Brawl Klaw was pretty bad in teams since if you landed a slam on the opponent's teammate, they wouldn't take damage and could just attack Bowser to get their teammate out. Now the slam actually hurts anyone who gets in the way.
 

Overswarm

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It's pretty difficult to pull that off. I could potentially see G&W getting a bucket and getting the corneria lasers becoming an issue if G&W is playable, but the rosalina and ness stuff is eh to me. I'd have to see it actually impact results in a way that is meaningful before I could ban it.

Had people at my house tournament complain that G&W/Pika team was too good and mentioned that two G&W / two Pika match that ended in 17 seconds. G&W/Pika did not do particularly well, during or after the tournament.
 

Krynxe

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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EYL4Q1NLPCY

Corneria. IMO this isn't really reason to ban the stage because it seems predictable and replicable (and this avoidable with a bit of knowledge), but it's still whack.
So that is what happened to me. When I said this:
Also, this version of Corneria seems to have a much more aggressive hazard in which explosions spawn and can kill players at extremely low percents (I've seen as low as 25%). These explosions can also cause the game to lag,
They were happening at the same time I was absorbing things with Ness on the stage. This is problematic because not only does Ness get healed by massive amounts of HP, but the other other can easily die for it and the game lags making any potential recovery very difficult. Since Ness is one of mains, I'll say now that my game plan on a stage like this would be to use the size of the stage to run away a lot until Arwings fly by, and then abuse this as much as possible. Similar things could be said for other characters who benefit from this stage and its hazards
 
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ぱみゅ

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TIme for a summary?

Obviously Legal:
-Battlefield
-FD
-Brisntar
-Yoshi's Island
-Prism Tower
-Arena Ferox
-Tomodachi Life

Possible:
-3D Land
-Rainbow Road
-Paper Mario
-Jungle Japes
-Spirit Train
-Corneria
-Unova Pokémon League
-Mute City
-Magicant
-Reset Bomb Forest
-Distant Planet
-Tortimer Island
-PictoChat 2
-Pac-Maze

Walkoffs
-Golden Plains
-Mushroomy Kingdom
-Gerudo Valley
-Dream Land
-Boxing Ring
-Gaur Plain
-Balloon Fight
-Living Room
-Green Hill Zone

Bosses
-Wario Ware (Sorta... kinda...)
-Find Mii
-Willy's Castle

Let me first say that we're not absolutely certain of Walkoff's power in this game. They look bad right now because characters jumping are in a huge disadvantage, but they're still separated, just in case. Also, out of them at least I will advocate for Mushroomy Kingdom. The stage scrolls, making blastzone camping less effective, and walls now are much less abusable.

Also, I just threw there a bunch of stages that have been discussed here and there as "Possible".
 
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Krynxe

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I'm working on a write-up of my thought of all of the possible stages you listed. I have to sleep and I'll be busy tomorrow, but I'll post it in the near future.
 
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