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Stage Discussion - Pokemon Stadium

Cactuar

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This seems to be the hot topic in the ruleset thread.

Arguments for or against complete removal from the singles stage list (it is the only CP stage).
 

Strong Badam

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wtf? i don't think so tim. the only reason it's a CP is because of the transformations that can be waited out; the stage is perfectly fine for competitive play and is a staple in competitive Melee and has been for 8 years. the only random elements give the players plenty of warning to achieve a position good enough to wait out any undesirable transformations.
 

Aniolas

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I've been under the impression that PS is a CP because of two reasons.

1. It is not neutral enough (compared with the other stages) because of the space animals.

2. The transformations.

I can't, however, see any good reason for a complete removal.
 

Zankoku

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I thought it was a CP just because the lot of you insist on having an odd number of starter stages.
 

Marc

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Ankoku: How would you go about stage striking with an even number of stages? I know it can be done, but am wondering what the best way would be.

There are some arguments for PS to be a counterpick or being outright removed, but you can say that about every stage that isn't Battlefield. In the Netherlands we actually sort of rotate the one counterpick stage these days, because at this point people have a hard time agreeing to what should be it.

Arguments for a ban are that the transformations interfere and essentially halt the match, as well as the overall layout making it a strong counterpick for space animals (especially Fox because of the low ceiling). Arguments against the ban are that all transformations are temporary and that it's not exactly broken for spacies either, especially if you have a stage ban. *shrug* I have a hard time seeing it go this late into the metagame, but wouldn't really care either way.
 

Zankoku

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Maybe people care more about the fairness of the whole thing now, but back in 2008 I remember various tournaments just doing 6 stages on 12121 order, and occasionally 12212 order.
 

Marc

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I recently came to the conclusion that I'd be fine with striking with an even number of stages where the first person also strikes last (and thus has one more strike), although this was for Brawl.
 

Cactuar

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Having 5 strikes gives one player a massive advantage when the strikes are played correctly. The individual with 3 strikes gets to use their first strike for an even stage, while the person with 2 is forced to strike his two disad stages.

The 6 stages are also balanced around a 5 game set. All viable matchups will have 2 ad, 2 disad, and one even stage. I've actually kept PS as a CP because removing it has negative effects on Falco, not Fox.

Pokemon stadium had to be kept to legitimize the 2nd/3rd match exchange between spacies and the other viables, as the other viables all have a better counterstage against fastfallers. To remove PS would be an act of balancing matchups rather than balancing sets, as it turns several of those sets into having 2 even, 2 disad, and 1 ad.

In the current method, it is actually:

1 even
1 strong ad/strong disad
1 weak ad/weak disad

A fully played set will demonstrate player ability on the even stage in the first round, granting slight set advantage to the winner. The following rounds give the defending player a strong chance to tie the set or the advantaged player to prove his superiority by winning a match on his strong disad stage, then regain advantage with his own strong ad stage. The final two rounds would be a tighter contest between the two players, providing some advantage for the 4th round retie, but making it more difficult than it would have been earlier in the set. The 5th match advantage is given to the player who had the set lead as of the end of the 3rd round, and I GOTTA RUN BECAUSE I GOTTA DRIVE HOME ILL FINISH THIS THOUGHT LATER)


Or so my theorycrafting tells me. Those are just how the matches are played optimally in my mind. Other people are obviously going to prefer different stages for the various matchups, so this is something that has to be fluid and able to change readily in the case where I've theorycrafted something horribly wrong.

Me being wrong is unlikely though. :)
 

Zankoku

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I think the actual character-based (rather than player-based) advantages/disadvantages given to a match-up by stage are all within nominal bounds and won't be the deciding factor in a set between top players.
 
D

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I feel like a broken record but I think this stage is way more neutral than FD is.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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^ agree with that. I've made that argument so many times, in many ways. Probably the simplest is that the strike stages are supposed to be the most similar stages. Whats more different, a stage with a different form of platforms or no platforms at all? The one with none.

Also, any match-up with chaingrabs automatically skews the strike. For example, marth vs fox. Fox generally wants the bigger stages, which means marth should strike those in order to get to the small stages. But instead, fox must strike FD since chaingrabs are too strong on that stage. Marth then has an advantage over fox in the strike where he essentially has 1 bad stage, 1 even and 3 good.
 

Strong Badam

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yea but sveet pokeman stadium transforms & FD doesn't. :V
 

Lovage

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call it fox main bias, lol, but i've thought for a while that stadium is a bit more balanced than FD on a large scale - that is, when you consider every matchup (cept dumb *** bottom tier **** lol)

battlefield and dreamland are the best and most balanced stages in this game. yoshi's and fountain are also really good but slightly skewed in certain matchups (very marginal in all honesty)

FD and stadium the stages that actually really change a lot of matchups. i feel like FD is only thought of as more neutral than stadium because there are way more spacy/falcon players than marth and peach players lol.

the dumb thing about stadium is that the transformations are random, and when you discuss the stage you really do need to discuss each section individually, because some of them are way different. ex: neutral stadium being a beautifully neutral great stage and fire stadium being a gay broken piece of **** fox playground
 

Zankoku

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I vote that in honor of the icon that shows up for that transformation we call it the METEOR STADIUM because it sounds cooler.
 

Juggleguy

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+1 to the list of people who think Stadium is actually more neutral than FD.

Stadium changes fewer relevant matchups and I'd argue that the change is less severe when it exists. And the jankiness that comes with Stadium's transformations is far less significant in the big picture than the complete lack of platforms on FD.
 

Skler

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Since I'm still getting active again...


**** you Pokemon Stadium. I ban you ALL THE TIME and yet here you are, existing, while Rainbow Cruise has fallen from grace. At least RC took Brinstar, may that stage forever suffer in the ever-burning hellfire of non-competitive stages, with it, but what good have you done? NOTHING. You contribute nothing to the game! All you do is provide another stage where spacies can win even harder, though you do sometimes send Fox directly through the stage to his horrible death.

That being said, I think Pokemon Stadium is dumb because the transformations can turn the spot I had an advantage in (under a semi-low platform) into a spot I'm super screwed in (on top of a mountain/tree/windmill/tree house) and then I can't get back into my safe spot immediately when the stage is transforming. This makes my only safe spot the right side of the stage (there's always a platform there for me to stand under), which is eight flavors of stupid.

Seriously, the left side of Pokemon Stadium is extremely disadvantaged when it comes to transformations since you generally get placed above your opponent, a place almost nobody wants to be. If I'm Link and am on the left side of the stage for whatever reason and it transforms into something that isn't the Grass stage I just got put into a crappy spot and that's uncool because the transformations are ?random?

Also sloped edges at times (WTF), characters randomly dropping through it (zomg), and it murdered my parents. Compare this to Rainbow Cruise which is constantly moving (totally sweet), has platforms that randomly drop (wicked awesome), and adopted me after my parents were murdered.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Enjoyable post to read, but I'm not sure if you are serious. One can easily tell which transformation is coming 10 seconds in advance, which is enough time to plan accordingly.
 

Skler

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Planning accordingly to be forced to move to a disadvantageous position is still stupid. I know I'm screwed when I'm on the left side and the mountain comes up and am totally prepared to be screwed, but that doesn't mean the stage still isn't screwing me over.

Compare to Rainbow Cruise where everything is on a set loop, you know exactly what will happen and are thus in full control. I have no way of knowing exactly when the mountain or some other screwball transformation is going to bone my position on the left side of the stage on PS. The only legitimate counterplay to the PS transformations screwing me is "always be on the right side of the stage so I'm not affected."

And again, while rare it's worth mentioning people still randomly get gibbed through the stage. I haven't had it happen in a tournament match yet, but I've had it happen in friendlies before. What do you even do when somebody gets gimped by the stage's glitch?

Edit: I guess you can argue "the right side of the stage is better in PS, so there's a fight over it" and that's sort of legit, except one person STARTS in the advantageous position while the other does not.

Edit 2: On Rainbow Cruise I can consistently stay in a good position because the stage will always be the same every single loop. On Pokemon Stadium the only consistently good position (for people who like being under platforms) is the right side of the stage.
 

Cactuar

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Your repeated comparisons to RC take a significant amount of heft away from your arguments. Don't be a crusader for RC while trying to argue against PS's legality.
 

Skler

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But I really like RC and my comparisons don't take away the fact that PS is still starting one player off in a good spot and automatically making the left side of the stage terrible. However, for the sake of arguing I'll just break it down into some easy points without RC comparisons.

Problems with PS:

- Transformations are almost always bad for the left side of the stage and force players out of positions that are good whenever a transformation isn't in effect.

- One player starts on an objectively better piece of the stage and there is no way around this.

- Players can randomly fall through the stage, resulting in loss of stock due to randomness.

- Slanted edges at times

- Transformations cause breaks in momentum and the flow of the match

No other legal stage has this many problems, and I honestly think PS is a bad competitive stage for these reasons. Half the stage can turn into a horrible position because the RNG wants it to. Wasn't that one of the (many) reasons Brinstar needed to be removed? Just look at PS compared to any other legal stage, the closest to it is Yoshi's Story or Fountain of Dreams, each of which only have a single problem on the list of problems PS has.
 

Zivilyn Bane

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It's sad that as great of a game that Melee is, it is so lacking in competitive stage choice.

Although I've always loved PS, I can't argue that it can be incredibly annoying at times. However I don't think it's enough to make the stage banned.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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[collapse=rant]You're on the left side and you see the mountain is coming in 10 seconds. You gauge your opponent's level of aggression. If he is very aggressive you can retreat to the edge and do ledgehop->2nd ledge as the mountain is rising. I'm sure you can figure out a way to turn that into an advantage (if he is on top of the mountain you can poke with sweetspot upbs or just refresh invincibility and be safe; if he jumped down into the gap you now have the option to ledgehop and take the top of the mountain (keep him from advancing past the edge) or fall down and be aggressive (wouldn't suggest this for link, but who knows)). In any case, more often than not, the opponent will choose to do "safe" pressures and not jump into the hole against you. There is also the possibility that they will give you the left side of the stage and you can get into "the cave" for free, which is a really efficient place to make trades (for the defender). I find the right most part of the stage to be the hardest to defend, though combos are pretty strong there.

For the fire transformation, you can easily fight for control of the left platform. After the stage has transformed it is hard to approach over the wall. Honestly I think this transformation heavily favors the left side in terms of defensibility. The right half has a natural divide on the opposite ends of the platform, so even if you are on the same side it isn't quite that bad.

The windmill, I kinda agree, though it does give you a good place to bait. One can ride the windmill around and attempt to take control of the right side or choose to wait if it isn't available. This kinda sucks for characters like ganon or samus, but I think Link is just fine (edgecancel dair on a right platform is pretty safe). The right half is really awkward because of its inverse platform layout. Recovering on the right side is a little easier due to the top platform being nearer to the edge and at the same time its relatively easy to defend from the left half through classical methods.

The left side for the wood transformation is pretty decent too. It may not be ideal for link, but it makes for a mini-FD reminiscent of FoD when the platform is down. There is enough space that the left side of the stage isn't controlled by the center platforms. Right half of the stage is similar but with a semi low platform that is very easy to trap on.[/collapse]


tl;dr I dont think any of the transformations are broken. On top of that, the neutral stage is probably the most balanced of any neutral. The stage may favor characters that are more versatile, but I don't think a stage should be banned because it favors versatility.

As for the comparisons to RC, please stop. RC is fundamentally different from PS in that RC forces vertical movement at the risk of death, drastically disfavoring characters and playstyles that rely on ground moves (such as ICs, Samus and Doc) not to mention the characters that rely on trapping/zoning to circumvent their lack of speed (such as Ganon and Link). I am still on the ropes as to whether RC is really ban worthy, but that is not the discussion we are having here. We are talking about a flat platform stage with non-lethal stage interactions.
 

Skler

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The mountain transformation is extremely broken, with the fire and water transformation being broken in their own ways as well, though the fire transformation is easiest to wait out by sitting under the platform and being scary. Of course, the fire transformation is also the one that randomly kills people for standing near that tree.

Whoever starts on the right side of the stage has an advantage because all they need to do is defend their area. They don't need to approach because their opponent will eventually be forced to attack them or move to the extreme edge of the stage once the mountain shows up. On any other legal stage you know exactly what will happen at any given time, barring small changes like Randall or platform shifting on FoD. PS forces you to deal with massive changes that can ruin what was once an advantageous position.

I'd also like to talk about how bad certain transformation are for recovering or edge guarding. Oh, I got knocked off the stage and barely survived because of DI against Marth, but now it's becoming the grass stage? Looks like I can't recover against his now downward angled fsmash/dtilt. Oh, I knocked somebody off the left side of the stage and it's becoming the mountain? Looks like they now have two recovery routes and I can't even stand back from the edge to use a safe attack.

Yes, the transformations take time and are predictable once you know which one it is, but the mountain and grass stage both alter sections of the stage so much that they dramatically change edge guarding and recovering. Have you ever had the mountain stage come up while trying to edge guard on the left side? It feels bad, man. I've also been on both the giving and receiving end of stupid grass edge guards.


Edit: The neutral stage of PS is probably the most balanced stage in the game aside from Battlefield, but that doesn't matter because of how janky the transformations are.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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The mountain transformation is extremely broken, with the fire and water transformation being broken in their own ways as well, though the fire transformation is easiest to wait out by sitting under the platform and being scary. Of course, the fire transformation is also the one that randomly kills people for standing near that tree.
define "extremely broken". This is a gross over exaggeration. My previous post went over various strategies that can be used to cover advantages and disadvantages due to transformations.

As for falling through the tree, over the course of 8 years playing this game casually in HS through now, i have only fallen through once and witnessed it twice. I haven't seen one in over 2 years. This is not a frequent occurrence by any means and has virtually never affected a tournament result. This glitch is not the same as the seal glitch on pokefloats which would happen to me every single time so took the time to learn exactly where not to stand because that stage was awesome.

Whoever starts on the right side of the stage has an advantage because all they need to do is defend their area. They don't need to approach because their opponent will eventually be forced to attack them or move to the extreme edge of the stage once the mountain shows up. On any other legal stage you know exactly what will happen at any given time, barring small changes like Randall or platform shifting on FoD. PS forces you to deal with massive changes that can ruin what was once an advantageous position.
Why is the left forced to attack the right? You are giving no cause. The stage change itself doesn't make one move forward the same way brinstar or RC force you to jump. The player on the left side would only have to move right if he chose to.

I'd also like to talk about how bad certain transformation are for recovering or edge guarding. Oh, I got knocked off the stage and barely survived because of DI against Marth, but now it's becoming the grass stage? Looks like I can't recover against his now downward angled fsmash/dtilt. Oh, I knocked somebody off the left side of the stage and it's becoming the mountain? Looks like they now have two recovery routes and I can't even stand back from the edge to use a safe attack.
You have 10 seconds notice to adapt your strategy. This isn't fountain of dreams where you don't know a platform is going to rise and move you out of the way. The primary strategies haven't changed, only the terrain you are to execute them on. Also, there are only 4 transformations. You clearly know the details of them, lack of stage knowledge (including strategies to attempt) should not be an issue.

Yes, the transformations take time and are predictable once you know which one it is, but the mountain and grass stage both alter sections of the stage so much that they dramatically change edge guarding and recovering. Have you ever had the mountain stage come up while trying to edge guard on the left side? It feels bad, man. I've also been on both the giving and receiving end of stupid grass edge guards.
I tend to just trap them to the inside of the mountain and defend and look for openings as they come. If both players stand off the whole time, the only advantage gained by the former edgeguardee is feet on the ground, back to the edge. That is no different than if they used randall or edge canceled or shortened an illusion or you messed up or they guessed right and got through your trap. This is a very minor positional gain with primary advantage still with the former edgeguarder.


Edit: The neutral stage of PS is probably the most balanced stage in the game aside from Battlefield, but that doesn't matter because of how janky the transformations are.
This is a terrible argument. My dad was an awful parent. I mean, he was awesome 75% of the time but that doesn't matter because sometimes he was just kinda meh and watched tv when I wanted to do stuff.
 

Skler

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define "extremely broken". This is a gross over exaggeration. My previous post went over various strategies that can be used to cover advantages and disadvantages due to transformations.
Extremely broken as in the extreme left has weird interactions with characters standing up, doing attacks and such, while the mountain lip edge is all sorts of crazy as well. It also features a wall to infinite on. The mountain stage would be banned in a heartbeat if it existed as a stand alone, same with the fire stage.


As for falling through the tree, over the course of 8 years playing this game casually in HS through now, i have only fallen through once and witnessed it twice. I haven't seen one in over 2 years. This is not a frequent occurrence by any means and has virtually never affected a tournament result. This glitch is not the same as the seal glitch on pokefloats which would happen to me every single time so took the time to learn exactly where not to stand because that stage was awesome.
I didn't say it was frequent, just that it can and has happened (and is entirely random as nobody seems to be able to recreate it). If it happened in a tournament we don't even know what we'd do. Just say "no johns"? Restart the match?

Nobody said Pokefloats should be legal, and you can't hate on me for making RC comparisons and then use a comparison to a stage that was banned before RC was.


Why is the left forced to attack the right? You are giving no cause. The stage change itself doesn't make one move forward the same way brinstar or RC force you to jump. The player on the left side would only have to move right if he chose to.
Because the left side is forced onto the extreme edge of the stage if they don't attack, which is, as you end up saying in that post, a crappy spot to be in. The left side is at a disadvantage because of their starting position.


You have 10 seconds notice to adapt your strategy. This isn't fountain of dreams where you don't know a platform is going to rise and move you out of the way. The primary strategies haven't changed, only the terrain you are to execute them on. Also, there are only 4 transformations. You clearly know the details of them, lack of stage knowledge (including strategies to attempt) should not be an issue.
Stage knowledge doesn't make the mountain any easier to edge guard from, or the grass any harder to recover against. The RNG shouldn't make one player gain such a significant advantage.


I tend to just trap them to the inside of the mountain and defend and look for openings as they come. If both players stand off the whole time, the only advantage gained by the former edgeguardee is feet on the ground, back to the edge. That is no different than if they used randall or edge canceled or shortened an illusion or you messed up or they guessed right and got through your trap. This is a very minor positional gain with primary advantage still with the former edgeguarder.
It's a much better position than "off the stage." Also, refer to the earlier quote where you say the left side isn't at a disadvantage. The left side forces you to get into this position if nobody plays aggressively, hence it being at a disadvantage.


This is a terrible argument. My dad was an awful parent. I mean, he was awesome 75% of the time but that doesn't matter because sometimes he was just kinda meh and watched tv when I wanted to do stuff.
I didn't make an argument here, I just said if the stage was its neutral position all the time it would be amazing because the neutral stage is great.

Your analogy is just horrendous as well, because the bad parts of stadium are incredibly bad. The only reason Stadium isn't banned is because it's easy to wait the mountain and fire transformation out; if you were actually forced to play the game for those 30 seconds instead of take up a strong defensive position (an edge you can easily leave or underneath a platform that has a section that can't be dropped through between a divide) Stadium would be banned. Does anyone think the Mountain and Fire transformations are anything but detrimental to the game? I don't want to have to re-establish that point, but I will if I need to (though whoever needs me to clearly forgets why Onett and Corneria are banned).

Play stops for thirty seconds at a time when the mountain or fire stage appear (unless they give your character a huge advantage *ahem* Fox) because of how bad those transformations are. These transformations can also ruin plays that would have worked perfectly. It's not a player's fault they were comboing somebody on the left side of the stage when the mountain transformation was announced, why should they have to edge guard two edges at once when they finish their combo?
 

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Isn't half of melee about standoffs and manipulating react times and zones? The game doesn't change when the stage changes, only the strong points on the map. None of the changes give any severe advantages unless players get reckless. If you jump into the cave with fox and get infinited, its your choice and not the stage's fault that you can't make smart decisions.


You haven't countered any of my arguments, you simply assert that everything is horrendously broken and that lefties are always screwed. I am back to not knowing whether you are trolling or not. If you would like to have a conversation about this stage, let us talk about reality and not with hyperboles and half truths.
 

Little England

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If we can somehow make a ruleset where FD and PS are counterpicks and BF, DL, YS, and FoD, are neutrals I would be happy.

Sometimes it seems like Fox on PS is a free win in every MU (expect maybe Falco where it may be even). On the other hand it seems like its just a lot of theory crafting goes into people's perceptions about spacies on PS that aren't backed up by actual results. The main problem I feel people have with the stage is that the transformations interrupt the overall flow of the game and create stalling whereas on other neutrals its just a continuous flow.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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If we can somehow make a ruleset where FD and PS are counterpicks and BF, DL, YS, and FoD, are neutrals I would be happy.
Take FoD off too, since thats a well hated stage. Other 3 on CP. But then the strike is really really boring.


also, i agree with you jason, a lot of people overestimate spacies on this stage and exaggerate how bad their character is on the stage. Recently I was playing marth vs falcon on the fire transformation on the left side. Falcon recovered onto the top platform so I did a fullhop uair (which he DI'd far right) and landed on the branch to finish with a tip fair. Idk if these two ideas are linked but it was a sick combo :)
 

Skler

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You haven't countered any of my arguments, you simply assert that everything is horrendously broken and that lefties are always screwed. I am back to not knowing whether you are trolling or not. If you would like to have a conversation about this stage, let us talk about reality and not with hyperboles and half truths.
Your arguments amount to "nuh uh."

You claimed the mountain stage isn't broken, something the entire community disagrees with. Let's make Corneria legal, because infinite combos on walls are your own fault for being near the wall, right? How about Onett as well? The mountain stage is hated because it has brokenly strong defensive positions and a wall for infinites so easy even I can do them. Fire stage is broken for the same reasons. The fact that they can come up and give a player a much better chance at surviving an edge guard is just icing on the cake.

You claimed the left side of the stage isn't at a disadvantage then, in the same post, admitted the left side is at a disadvantage.

You made an argument that the left side doesn't need to attack, but that's untrue because the left side is the crappy part of the stage once transformations come around and ultimately forces you to the edge of the stage. You even admitted it.

You also argued that stage knowledge makes up for the fact the stage will randomly give the player who's recovering or edge guarding the advantage and refused to argue that a completely random event, even one you have prior knowledge of, shouldn't give such a large advantage to one player. Why does somebody deserve to keep their stock just because the mountain came up? You can not effectively edge guard the double edges.

You can't just say "no" and think it's an argument, you need to actually argue something.

Where is the hyperbole in my last post?

Edit: You even tried to use anecdotal evidence, which is irrelevant.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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[collapse=response]
Your arguments amount to "nuh uh."

You claimed the mountain stage isn't broken, something the entire community disagrees with.
Actually that would be your arguments. You gave an example right away. You say exaggerated things about brokenness. Now you are also saying the entire community disagrees with me, which isn't true.

You cannot take the mountain out of context. If it was a standalone stage, we could judge it as such, but it isn't. You don't spawn on the left half of the mountain and the stage is static until one player loses 4 stocks, no. You first fight for 90 seconds and then the stage transforms for 30.


Let's make Corneria legal, because infinite combos on walls are your own fault for being near the wall, right? How about Onett as well? The mountain stage is hated because it has brokenly strong defensive positions and a wall for infinites so easy even I can do them. Fire stage is broken for the same reasons. The fact that they can come up and give a player a much better chance at surviving an edge guard is just icing on the cake.
Walls are advantaged points, but that doesn't mean they are broken. If you don't want to risk getting infinited, don't go by them and wait for the stage to go to normal. Please stop throwing the word "broken" around like you are a 12 y/o league player.

You claimed the left side of the stage isn't at a disadvantage then, in the same post, admitted the left side is at a disadvantage.
I think both sides are relatively equal, though different. I would really like to see you actually back up your leftie argument (or really any argument, for that matter).

You made an argument that the left side doesn't need to attack, but that's untrue because the left side is the crappy part of the stage once transformations come around and ultimately forces you to the edge of the stage. You even admitted it.
Umm no. I did not. Please find my words in context where I say "you are forced to go to the edge and have no other options". I mentioned moving towards the edge as a possible option, but that isn't the only option. The transformations never limit your options to 1 or 0, no matter what hyperboles you want to make.

You also argued that stage knowledge makes up for the fact the stage will randomly give the player who's recovering or edge guarding the advantage and refused to argue that a completely random event, even one you have prior knowledge of, shouldn't give such a large advantage to one player. Why does somebody deserve to keep their stock just because the mountain came up? You can not effectively edge guard the double edges.
Idk how you play the game, but my game theory is all about maining superior positioning and taking advantages. Sometimes you don't get a kill immediately and must maintain your position. I can understand how you feel the involvement of the stage is wrong, but it doesn't remove your advantage. Occasionally giving additional recovery options is not broken.[/collapse]

If you do not back up your arguments and cease exaggerated claims, I will not continue this discussion. You are currently no longer making any arguments but are trying to turn things I have said against me. This type of debate gets us nowhere. If you want something to change, try being realistic and talking to your peers as if they were people.
 

Skler

Smash Master
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Don't debate semantics, broken is just a descriptive term. Walls are considered broken in smash because every stage that allows infinite combos (sans Stadium, which aren't infinite due to the walls only being up for 30 seconds) has been banned in this game and people STILL can't agree on Wobbling.

I've been trying hard to be civil while you act intentionally ignorant, and ignore entire swaths of posts just because you have no argument to refute them (see: play stops for 30 seconds at a time because of transformations, the entire left side of the stage argument).

You quoted "Whoever starts on the right side of the stage has an advantage because all they need to do is defend their area. They don't need to approach because their opponent will eventually be forced to attack them or move to the extreme edge of the stage once the mountain shows up." and post

Why is the left forced to attack the right? You are giving no cause.
immediately after it like you don't understand that being on the inside or on top of the mountain is a weak position in the vast majority of matchups, leaving the left side with the option of "approach the right" or "fall back to the other side of the mountain". You either believe the inner part of the left stage is not a bad defensive position on the fire or mountain transformations or are being intentionally obtuse.

Let's say it's Falcon on the left and Marth on the right, Falcon has to approach Marth or be forced to the side. Same with pretty much anyone vs Marth, Marth gets an advantage because he started on the right side of the stage and knows his opponent has to approach him or eventually move to the edge (or into a position he can easily hit them in). Spacies also have a similar scenario because almost nobody wants to go into the center of the mountain where they can get infinite comboed into a wall. Is it a minor advantage, and one that not many people even recognize? Yes it is. Does it exist? Yes.


I want to point out some things you've said.

First quote's context is you talking about why the left side isn't at a disadvantage:

Why is the left forced to attack the right? You are giving no cause. The stage change itself doesn't make one move forward the same way brinstar or RC force you to jump. The player on the left side would only have to move right if he chose to.


Second quote: Sveet, on why the left side of the stage is weak in the mountain transformation (former edgeguardee is the person who is on the extreme left of the stage, edgeguarder being the one further to the right)

I tend to just trap them to the inside of the mountain and defend and look for openings as they come. If both players stand off the whole time, the only advantage gained by the former edgeguardee is feet on the ground, back to the edge. That is no different than if they used randall or edge canceled or shortened an illusion or you messed up or they guessed right and got through your trap. This is a very minor positional gain with primary advantage still with the former edgeguarder.
Bolding is mine. Also, it's different from Randall or a shortened illusion or anything like that because those things aren't the stage. Having feet on the stage is a big deal, it means you have all your jumps, the ability to shield and all that it entails, along with the ability to CC, dash, whatever else you can do while standing.

If neither player attacks for the first 90 seconds and the first transformation is the mountain or fire stage, the player on the left is forced to attack or move closer to the left edge of the stage due to no fault of their own because of how weak the inner parts of the left stage are during these transformations. The right side is in a superior position because the stage cannot randomly screw with them, all they need to do is defend their position until a transformation occurs. That transformation then has a 50% chance of giving the left side a disadvantage.

Unless the platforms, top, or inside of the mountain/fire tree aren't weak defensive positions you have to concede that the left side has to make an aggressive move or end up being forced into a weak position for reasons that are entirely unrelated to what their opponent is doing.


You can say the problem isn't a big one and that Stadium is worth it, but you can't ignore that the stage has problems.

Here's the list of known problems with Stadium:

1. The mountain coming up during an edge guard is a thing that randomly happens and favors a certain player. The grass stage is similar, but some characters do not benefit from a sloped edge.

2. There is a glitch on the stage that, though rare, can make players fall through the floor and lose a stock.


Debatable problems:

1. The flow of the game is broken on certain transformations because of the strong defensive positions that are created.

2. The left side is at an inherent disadvantage because they have to be the aggressor or eventually be forced into a worse position unless they have a means of forcing the opponent to engage (projectiles). One player starts on the left side, thus that player is at a disadvantage from the start of the game depending on the matchup.

3. Some transformations have walls, and stages with walls have all been banned with the walls being part of the reasoning behind the ban.


Argue against the ones that are up for debate, and argue why the ones that are known are not a big deal. Anecdotes are not arguments.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
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There is a fine line between being encouraged to move and being forced to move. A big premise in your argument for wanting to ban pokemon stadium is that the left side is forced to move, which I contest.

Forced movement is when there will be immediate damage caused by the stage if movement doesn't happen. Encouraged movement is when the stage changes your positioning relative to your opponent.

Attacking forward is dangerous when your opponent is holding their ground, even if they are at a disadvantage. In this case movement isn't forced. There are plenty of ways to evade and trap an opponent who is jumping to reach you while you stand at the tower. Also you have the option to retreat to an edge (most defensive position) that when the transformation ends leaves you with your feet on the ground. Because these options are available, the statement "The left side is forced to attack the right side" is false.

Don't debate semantics, broken is just a descriptive term.
broken
adjective
in reference to a game (e.g. video game or collectible card game,) "broken" implies there is some rule, character, method of play, or specific card that wields so much power it effectively "breaks" the game.

This is what I mean when I say "hyperboles". There is a difference between "lol falco's broken" and "thats broken and needs to be banned". You are making an argument for the banning of a stage, please use a descriptive term "broken" correctly.

Here's the list of known problems with Stadium:

1. The mountain coming up during an edge guard is a thing that randomly happens and favors a certain player. The grass stage is similar, but some characters do not benefit from a sloped edge.
Counter argument:

There are 10 seconds of warning to allow for strategic positioning. In the unlikely but possible case of the mountain coming up while edge guarding, the edge guard is not ruined. Depending on the degree of advantage you have gained, it may not even affect you at all. Otherwise, the only potential advantage for the person recovering is an extra edge to go to. In many cases this isn't even possible, so the stage isn't much of an issue.

Occasionally you will be in the situation where you have freshly hit them off and they are able to double jump and upb to the high edge. I contend that in these situations significant advantage wasn't gained in order to reasonably expect to take the stock without the transformation occuring. This is why I brought up other recovery mixups, since I see it as simply an additional recovery tactic and failure to account for it is a mistake by the edgeguarder (or a conscious choice gone wrong). One could argue that the recovering player should be rewarded for their stage knowledge and tactical decision making on the fly.

2. There is a glitch on the stage that, though rare, can make players fall through the floor and lose a stock.
That is true and it is unfortunate. As a TO I have never had any complaints from my players about the stage due to this issue, though, so I wouldn't agree with banning it due to this
 

Skler

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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There is a fine line between being encouraged to move and being forced to move. A big premise in your argument for wanting to ban pokemon stadium is that the left side is forced to move, which I contest.

Forced movement is when there will be immediate damage caused by the stage if movement doesn't happen. Encouraged movement is when the stage changes your positioning relative to your opponent.

Attacking forward is dangerous when your opponent is holding their ground, even if they are at a disadvantage. In this case movement isn't forced. There are plenty of ways to evade and trap an opponent who is jumping to reach you while you stand at the tower. Also you have the option to retreat to an edge (most defensive position) that when the transformation ends leaves you with your feet on the ground. Because these options are available, the statement "The left side is forced to attack the right side" is false.
Then why do you say being at the extreme left of the stage is a disadvantage? You said getting onto the stage isn't a big deal when your back is still to the edge. Please defend your quotes, they suggest something entirely different from this section of your post.

Responding to the other parts later, very tired right now (won a smash tourny yeseterday woooo!)
 

Marc

Relic of the Past
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Messages
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The Netherlands
We're currently banning both PS and FD in my country as a test, for several of the reasons mentioned here.
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
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Location
Philadephia, PA
I always imagined FoD, FD, and PS would go at the same time, leaving YS as the small stage, BF as the medium stage, and DL as the large stage.
 
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