Official Stage Discussion for Ike

[GhostUrsa]

Defensively, the benefits of a Battlefield design for Ike are in the ability to dodge enemy fire and his superior upward reach. Ike struggles a little when opponents are directly below him, as his only quick recourse it to drop down with a fast falling n-air or d-air (both of which have some wind up that can be intercepted when in close quarters at this angle). Ike works well with diagonals due to his reach, so walking off from a platforms edge into an aerial covers a lot of area and as @ Rango the Mercenary mentioned abusing the landing lag a character has on those platforms is key for following up on combos to keep the pressure up.

Battlefield style levels also benefit Ike with the extra height for edge guarding, since high recoveries are Ike's worst counter. He has great side, low and deep edge-guarding (Seriously, if you force your opponent into a deep recovery the only way you'll miss the stock is if your timing is off. Eruption is extremely brutal here!) but everyone can sail over him. The side platforms allow you to try to wall them out with f-air or Aether depending on the character your guarding against, both of which can knock them into those other approaches we excel at defending.

If you need some visual evidence of this, Rango's got some videos over at the Video Critic thread that show some excellent uses of f-air, b-air into a stage spike and Eruption available that will give some inspiration on how to mixup your edge game.

 

[GhostUrsa]

Since we are on the Battlefield mindset, I'm going to bring up why Big Battlefield is a terrible idea for Ike in general. It epitomizes the term "Too much of a good thing", as the extra platforms actually make it harder to get frame traps for our smashes and tilts. There are too many options for our opponents to land on, (which makes it harder to hit them with f-air or b-air) and many of the platforms aren't positioned right for Ike to hit (his jump is only decent, when makes it hard to hit anyone above the second layer of platforms without a boost. This is a big telegraph!)

Plus, the stage is huge! With blast zones so large, Ike's biggest draw (His raw power with his tilts and smashes) are nearly worthless. Characters with a good off-stage gimp game have more superiority with edge guarding here because of this, and we'll struggle to kill until really high % for most of the cast. The size of the arena grants better zoning and neutral control to speedsters, since they can run circles around us without worrying about us being able to trap them in a corner.

Luckily, this stage won't be coming up in any 1v1 fights for tournaments so for most of us this won't be an issue. But quite a few tournaments are OK with this for team matches (usually 3v3, but I've heard that 2v2 can sometimes be allowed), so some advice for struggling Ike's who have to fight on these stages. First, platforms are our friends. This seems like a bad thing, as I mentioned above the platform positioning and size makes frame traps harder to use. The reason you'll want to be fighting on platforms though is due to the new platform mechanics that prevent edge slipping. This forces your opponent to stay in close and mid range combat, which Ike can excel at. The platforms are at just the right length for most of Ike's tilts to reach without putting Ike in harms way, and allows dash grabs and other speedy followups to be available.

For edge-guarding, I find that Eruption doesn't have enough power until high %s to use as a good edge guard in this case. So unless you are using it as bait for your partner to follow up on their mistake, you'll want to use walk-off attacks (f-air, d-air or b-air for the stage spike) and possibly even Counter (yep, if their Up-b has a hitbox you can use this for the gimp. And gimping is a better edge guard here due to that blast zone size) as good options.

What do you guys think? Is there anything our team-playing Ikes want to bring up that I'm forgetting?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

@ GhostUrsa I'll see if Ryo would be willing to add his two cents.

 

[Underhill]

After picking Smashville as Ike against Sheik, I'm never going there again because of her speed and projectile. Town and City atleast has platforms for me to use against Sheik if I can't pick Battlefield or Dreamland and I rather not go to Lylat Cruise. because I hate that stage.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Amending my stage matchup with ROB. Battlefield is a much worse stage to take him on. Don't let him bait you for the stock-advantage suicide drop on the moving platform and you'll do fine here. If he bans Final Destination in the first round, go to Smashville.

 

[GhostUrsa]

Alright, while we are waiting for some team players to weigh in on Big Battlefield lets move on to a hot topic. Peach's Castle is currently making the rounds on local and state sized tournaments as a possible counter pick, and let's discuss on it's potential for Ike.

I can see Ike having some issues here, as the placement of the angled blast shields to the side of the bumper can intercept Ike's attempt to kill off the side. They are tech-able, which is both a blessing and a curse for us. The bumper above the stage both dampens movement for Ike's wonderful aerials and keeps aerial focused opponents on the ground/lower levels where things get more risky for all but the most able of air fighters. The Bridge's uneven layout both helps and hinders, as it can throw off attacks with a small and linear hitbox like our d-tilt. The lower platform's sliding mechanism really forces an aggressive play, which can be great for Ike against defensive focused characters as long as Ike has the middle ground. They'll have to come to him, where Ike shines and the required jump onto the safe part makes it harder for speedy characters to flank us. Being able to jump through the lips on the lower platform can be dangerous for us if we miss time our Aether, which is more likely to happen depending on what direction the mechanism is sliding.

Now, if this makes you want to ban this stage but you are stuck fighting there anyway then some observations I have for you to take into consideration. Against lighter characters with good aerial games, you'll want to try and force them to stay on the upper bridge so they can't use their superior air game on your with those sliding ledges. The wedges above the bridge and bumper will limit their mobility, while we still have plenty of short hop F-air to keep a good wall up for control. Once our prey gets to a high enough % where followups are harder to use, we can try to throw them into the bumper to set them up to hit the side wall wedges. This makes it so they either have to hit the wedges and possible the blast zone afterwards or tech it and fall into a predictable location for us to attack. The blastzone above the bumper is fairly low when attacking from the bridge, so D-throw can still be lethal if you miss the Bumper.

What do you guys think? Anything I haven't taken into account that would be beneficial to know when fighting here?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Okay, so I've got this tournament coming up next Friday.

https://www.facebook.com/events/360467667496053/

The stages are a bit different. Lylat, Smashville, and Final Destination are neutrals, while Battlefield is a counterpick. As far as I know, my best competition is:

Fatality - Captain Falcon
Scatt - Mega Man
Neos - Rosalina

I'm looking to make sure I've got the right stages ready. Without Battlefield, I'm stuck with a couple of uncomfortable stage choices, and I'm trying to sort them out properly. Who does worst on which stages?

 

[Mario766]

You're gonna want to try to force Rosalina to FD, I'd force Falcon to FD if possible, and for Mega Man you want honestly FD or Smashville, Lylat is pretty good for Mega Man IIRC.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

FD seems to be quite good for Ike in a number of cases since Smashville doesn't really help us. Also, Yoshi thrives on FD. I learned today that it's much better to force him to FD as well.

I feel that Ike is, in general, good against characters like Mario on Battlefield due to the combo potential, and against Link since it messes up his camping. But for combo jugglers, like Rosalina and Yoshi, it's better to go to a flat stage.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Okay, so I've got this tournament coming up next Friday.

https://www.facebook.com/events/360467667496053/

The stages are a bit different. Lylat, Smashville, and Final Destination are neutrals, while Battlefield is a counterpick. As far as I know, my best competition is:

Fatality - Captain Falcon
Scatt - Mega Man
Neos - Rosalina

I'm looking to make sure I've got the right stages ready. Without Battlefield, I'm stuck with a couple of uncomfortable stage choices, and I'm trying to sort them out properly. Who does worst on which stages?

That stage list is just a plan to try to make people pick SV more, isn't it?

 

[Mario766]

Pretty much.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

That stage list is just a plan to try to make people pick SV more, isn't it?

So teluoborg, from the Captain Falcon forum, told me that he prefers Smashville because of the platforms, but dislikes Lylat. Ike dislikes Lylat as well, but I want to know if I can use this to my advantage if I go up against Fatality?

Otherwise, given the stage picks, I'll strike SV right off the bat, and we'll likely go to Final Destination. For the counterpicking round, I'll ban Smashville and Town and City, but I may ban Halberd instead. I haven't decided yet.

ENKER told me Lylat is pretty bad for Mega Man as well. If Scatt bans Lylat off the bat, I have either Smashville or FD. I may go FD because Smashville will give him a slight edge in trying to Uair me to death. He loves using Air Tornado as a combo kill. For counterpicks, I'll nix Town and City and Halberd.

Against Neos (Rosalina), I'll stick to flat lands once again because he has advantage on stages like Battlefield and Delfino. He beat me on Halberd at MomoCon as well. Duck Hunt may be appropriate since it doesn't have as many platforms necessary for him to get good Uair combos on me. Ditto for Smashville, especially when compared to many of the other stages.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

To be quite honest, I'm beginning to believe we need to rethink Ike's best stages. While Battlefield is a "primary" choice, at the same time, several characters benefit largely from its layout. I've asked several forums, and coupled with my matchup experience against various players, it may be wiser to fight them on Final Destination.

For instance, Mega Man and Rosalina.

Both of them capitalize whenever you're above them. Abusing the platforms allows them to Uair juggle you. When I fought against Xaltis at CEO, he also had the clear advantage on me in Delfino Plaza. I fought Neos in a friendly 2 out of 3 set at CEO and won on Final Destination because he had nothing to capitalize on.

Against Fatality (Captain Falcon), I asked the CF board about stages, and they say he capitalizes when you're on platforms as well. So the less, the better. In other words, Final Destination to avoid more Uair pressure.

Whenever characters have Uair and juggle pressure, it is wise to avoid Battlefield. While it's already wise to avoid stages like Lylat Cruise and Halberd, you also have to consider your opponent's advantage. Whenever I go up against jda7's Pikachu, I ban Lylat and Battlefield immediately. He has less platforms to work with on Smashville and he's not as familiar with the ledge canceling on Dream Land since the platforms are different and Whispy Woods can throw him off.

Not to mention, even against characters like Charizard, Battlefield doesn't benefit us if he can UThrow us. I also fought one of our resident Yoshi players who told me Battlefield is Yoshi's best stage. I tested this out when I played other characters against him, doing better, and then going Ike on him in Smashville and Final Destination, winning MUCH easier than I did on Battlefield.

The point is, Ike doesn't have a "bad" stage at this point. It's not like Brawl where players can just pick Japes and Luigi's Mansino to screw you over. It's entirely situational on who you're fighting. A Link player told me that picking Battlefield screws his projectile camping. A Mega Man has told me that Lylat Cruise screws Mega Man's. Considering camping characters, like Falco, are you willing to take his huge hitboxes and juggles just to keep him from Blaster camping you? Or would you rather take a few hits from the blaster and chase him around FD and SV? In fact, do any characters have camping abilities that actually *warrant* going to Battlefield or avoiding Final Destination?

I feel the game has completely changed since Brawl. No more abusive Falco camping and canceling, and no more having to chase people around the way it used to be. To what benefit does Battlefield hold for Ike, or rather, which characters is it worth picking against at this point?

 

[GhostUrsa]

@ Rango the Mercenary Battlefield is still a good default for Ike, though Final Destination isn't bad for him either. That I agree, as I find FD really is disadvantageous for us when fighting against Speedsters and Ranged combatants. From my own experience to the Captain and from what I've discussed with other players who specialize in him, in the air he has some similar properties to us that give him some platform advantage (Wide u-air, good reaching and strong back-air). This with his grappling superiority to us (I don't consider him a Speedster, despite his speed. I've always seen him as our Zangief, just faster.) and limited space of fighting him on a platform can be detrimental for us. At the same time though, what he uses against us we use against him. We can just as easily frame trap him on the platforms as he can us, and an Ike player with a strong grasp of spacing can use the platforms to his advantage to keep Capt on his toes so he can just try to bait a shield to punish. I'd give Battlefield and FD a toss up against Capt, as familiarity of the player and their style will give more pros and cons than just straight up MU knowledge there.

Battlefield isn't as much of a priority for Rosie, this I also agree. The platforms do help us get around Luma more easily, but she gets more options out of platforms than we do since she can always disjoint Luma to shut down our use of platforms and spacing. We'll have more options for edge-guarding against her, which can help but if we are fighting a Rosie with a strong edge game she'll be able to use the platforms for her mid to high recoveries to return to neutral faster. (She'll touch ground before we can catch her. I find Launch Star has great upward speed, but poor downward speed so the sooner she touches the ground after launching the better.) Final Destination makes edge-guarding against her more Rock-Paper-Scissors than mind games, (She has 3 options, we have 3 options and each beats one of the others.) but if she tries to get around us high with Launch Star a tentative Ike can easily dash over to her landing spot and knock her back off stage before she can recover. (I find we are just fast enough to cover the distance on FD like stages for this.) Usually against Rosies, I tend to favor space over platforms unless my opponent likes to use Luma more as a projectile than as a Ice Climbers like partner.

For Megaman, I'm not quite so sure about avoiding platforms because of MM's best feature against us, his jab. It is extremely debilitating to Ike. As much as MM's aerials are slightly better than our due to less ending lag, that jab can completely shut down our ground game. It out spaces us, and can be used to bait a jump attack by a smart player for shield punishes (or aerial fights). His aerials pack a punch but they don't hit us as bad as other fighters due to our heavier weight. (not to mention we can beat out his f-air and b-air in range with our extended F-air range. You have to treat fighting him in the air like you do Sheik, ZZS, DeDeDe or Samus in my experience, which is avoid the Y axis and come at them in diagonals/side at max range) His smashes are strong, with decent range but so are ours. Fighting him on the platforms vertically I've had the best success when treating it like fighting a fellow Ike, so minimizing landing lag and staying mobile is the name of the game there.

I'll admit my MM MU knowledge isn't as extensive as others, so it's possible my info isn't as accurate as I'd like since I'm not fighting Pros at the top of their game. (Probably at the middle, as I've seen maybe 1 or 2 MM players in my local circuit and only a handful recently online.) But thinking about it analytically, we get probably about as much benefit from platforms against him as we do on FD. It would depend on the trade off you want to handle. Megaman is unique for Ike, I feel. He's equipped with everything that Ike isn't equipped to deal with. He's a projectile specialist, more so than even Samus is. This makes it unique from a stage selection standpoint because he seems to either want to keep you at a distance or to approach him from the air (in order to get around said projectiles). I'd personally probably prefer stages with uneven terrain against him, like Lylat, Castle Seige, DK Jungle 64 or Corneria for our 3DS packing Tourney goers.

I do believe that any character that has a linear set of attack animations suffers on stages that either rocks about or have uneven ground. Ike has just enough of a mix of attack options where he's only slightly limited on such stages, which gives us the advantage against Megaman and others. Lylat definitely helps here, though it can mess up our Aether recoveries so I consider it a High Risk/High Reward stage. Levels like Corneria and DK Jungle 64 are similar, though the High Risk/Reward comes more with the center of the stage. (Missing an D-tilt due to terrain sucks for us since it sets up so much. We have to rely on our jab and f-tilt for shutting down ground moves there.)

The only levels I consider us having a disadvantage with (as opposed to a trade off) are levels where the main platform can be jumped through and this could be debatable. Our deep edge game requires the ground to be reliable. Arenas with fickle snap, like Delfino, Skyloft, Wuhu and Pilot Wings are dangerous against opponents with great Aerial games. Luckily three of those stages are transitioning stages, so any limitations we have can be mitigated until we reach solid ground. It's a good thing that Pilot Wings won't be found in tournaments, as not only does the level provide too much ground for speedsters but we get the 'transparent' base and the tipping of Lylat on top of that.

In my opinion, FD can be a great starter against opponents with either a weak or non-existing projectile game or aren't in the speedster class. Though to think about it logically, if Battlefield got scratched against a speedster and it was between FD and one of the Animal Crossing stages, I'd go FD. Most of the Animal Crossing stages do have platforms, but they are low to the ground (which favors characters with more auto-cancelling or low ending lag moves) and seem to more often than not extend off the main stage which can help save speedsters. Most of our killing options against them will be off the side or top blastzone and any side blastzone could potentially be saved if they land on the thing. (not to mention most speedsters have a great vertical recovery, so recovering from the deep onto a side platform becomes easier.) On FD, we'll have issues fighting against speedsters on stage. Off stage, it narrows their options to that Rock-paper-scissors design that makes it much more manageable for Ike. (Any failures here will only prolong the match instead of cause massive upsets. Much easier to stay in the game when hit by a rising f-air from the edge than a b-air to the back of the head when edge guarding with Eruption for example.)

I suppose I'll have to edit to the end of my Final Destination post with some updated info. We've had quite a few patches since then that have changed the MUs for Ike to make it more favorable than it sounds.

 

[doom dragon 105]

Why are you guys so down on Lylat?

 

[GhostUrsa]

I'm glad you asked @ doom dragon 105 , as it was going to be the next stage I wanted to discuss. Personally, I like the stage. Looking at it from an Ike perspective, it is more of a high risk/reward arena. If it was static, the platform structure allows for easy frame trapping and punishing. Dropping off the platforms for a walk-off aerial is a good height for auto-canceling aerials and the lowered edges give us slightly more forgiving snapping when recovering deep. And since it's not a stage with a base platform you can jump through our shark edge defense still works, granting us a more reliable snap. (Though we have to be careful if we are too much under the stage since it's flat enough down there to have us smack into the underside of the stage, just like battlefield.) The only real disadvantage to the stage for Ike is when defending himself at the edge when his back is towards off-stage, as the lip will make it so d-tilt and f-tilt could potentially clip through the stage and whiff which limits our options a little. Luckily, our Jab, angled f-tilt and u-tilt can cover enough bases to make it not too much of a disadvantage.

It's the stage's constant tilting that makes it the biggest risk/reward. Since our vertical recovery is only a passing grade, that nice easy tip to snap to can very easily be snagged from us by the level. The tilting can also throw off our auto-cancel timing with F-air and B-air, make d-tilt and f-tilt hard or impossible to land and play havoc with our grabs. The good news is that this same detriment also affects all but the most aerial of opponents, so the ability of the player to adapt and anticipate becomes very important here. The stage isn't actively trying to kill the combatants like Orbital Assault is, but it is a passive obstacle to keep in mind while fighting. It's this element of chance that makes it a good counter-pick for Ike (though you can try to anticipate when the ship will pitch and move by watching the background, that won't help you if Meta Knight is fighting your recovery deep when this happens.) but must be chosen when weighing in your chances against the opponent you have.

 

[GhostUrsa]

@ Rango the Mercenary I'd say try for Lylat with Captain Falcon. Since his game will rely on a good grab to aerial system, anything that throws that off is a plus. If he misses his aerial, he'll be in prime position for you to hit him before he gets to the ground. It could also throw off his deep edge guarding, since he'll think twice about trying to spike in case he can't guarantee his return. (Not useful on the last stock, but up until then mind games are where we thrive!)

 

[san.]

Stickied so people can talk more about stages.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I'm glad you asked @ doom dragon 105 , as it was going to be the next stage I wanted to discuss. Personally, I like the stage. Looking at it from an Ike perspective, it is more of a high risk/reward arena. If it was static, the platform structure allows for easy frame trapping and punishing. Dropping off the platforms for a walk-off aerial is a good height for auto-canceling aerials and the lowered edges give us slightly more forgiving snapping when recovering deep. And since it's not a stage with a base platform you can jump through our shark edge defense still works, granting us a more reliable snap. (Though we have to be careful if we are too much under the stage since it's flat enough down there to have us smack into the underside of the stage, just like battlefield.) The only real disadvantage to the stage for Ike is when defending himself at the edge when his back is towards off-stage, as the lip will make it so d-tilt and f-tilt could potentially clip through the stage and whiff which limits our options a little. Luckily, our Jab, angled f-tilt and u-tilt can cover enough bases to make it not too much of a disadvantage.

It's the stage's constant tilting that makes it the biggest risk/reward. Since our vertical recovery is only a passing grade, that nice easy tip to snap to can very easily be snagged from us by the level. The tilting can also throw off our auto-cancel timing with F-air and B-air, make d-tilt and f-tilt hard or impossible to land and play havoc with our grabs. The good news is that this same detriment also affects all but the most aerial of opponents, so the ability of the player to adapt and anticipate becomes very important here. The stage isn't actively trying to kill the combatants like Orbital Assault is, but it is a passive obstacle to keep in mind while fighting. It's this element of chance that makes it a good counter-pick for Ike (though you can try to anticipate when the ship will pitch and move by watching the background, that won't help you if Meta Knight is fighting your recovery deep when this happens.) but must be chosen when weighing in your chances against the opponent you have.

The problem with Lylat cruise is the way characters, such as Peach and Ness, benefit greatly from it using platform combos and Nair abuse. Plus the projectiles don't seem to hinder them. The other problem is, attacks such as Bair, we can't just get away from the enemy. On the slope, it will slide us towards them, giving them a free shieldgrab they would not be able to attain on other stages.

On the flipside, players are forced to be more cautious while recovering. This seems to make it easier for Eruption to kill early on a recovering opponent.

 

[GhostUrsa]

The problem with Lylat cruise is the way characters, such as Peach and Ness, benefit greatly from it using platform combos and Nair abuse. Plus the projectiles don't seem to hinder them. The other problem is, attacks such as Bair, we can't just get away from the enemy. On the slope, it will slide us towards them, giving them a free shieldgrab they would not be able to attain on other stages.

On the flipside, players are forced to be more cautious while recovering. This seems to make it easier for Eruption to kill early on a recovering opponent.

Yeah, Peach, the dreamlanders, Jiggs and the Icarians would have a much easier time getting around the stage since the ground moving unpredictably wouldn't worry them with how much they stay in the air. The sloped shieldgrab issue is something that every fighter would have a problem with, though it seems worse for us since we rely on spacing more. One nice benefit to the slope is that with Ike's low crouch I have had opponents that have mobile Smashes (like Kirby, for example) accidently go over my head and then get hit with a nice tilt as they landed behind me. (Though I haven't tried this since the last 2 patches, so this could be now mute.)

I'd definitely avoid this stage as a pick against Peach, Pitlings and the dreamlanders. It could go on for quite some time on this stage. (Though at least with Peach, it could throw off her low-gravity hovering if the ship tilts and plants her feet on the ground. Analytically, a good Peach shouldn't have this issue but in the heat of battle you never know where a slip up will be.)

 

[GhostUrsa]

An update on this thread before I move on to the next stage topic. I'm planning on taking the information in these many posts and update the OP to give a cliff notes version of our analysis for every stage, similar to san's move set thread. The hope is to have something that is easy to reference for Ike players who are at a tournament and want a quick list of pros and cons for the different stages. Rango's updated information on Final Destination with Ike's 1.1.0 changes prompted me to think of a way to condense our information to prevent new readers who want to jump right into the discussion from debating with old information. I'll be posting pros and cons for each stage, possibility a grade on it's overall usefulness to Ike (I'm thinking of using out of 5 stars system), as well as a list of characters we expect to avoid/favor on different stages. Updating these cliff notes will be an ongoing process, so let me know if something doesn't seem right and I'll make corrections.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now on to the next stage! It's come up a bit in this thread and some of the MU discussions, so lets analyze Smashville. Without platforms around, this stage is similar to Final Destination at a glance. If I remember correctly, the blast zones are slightly smaller which makes Ike's rage and knockback good here. The wide open base does give speedsters a lot of space to roam, though the base isn't large enough for those with fast projectiles to have to worry about their shots losing range. This gives characters like Sheik a massive advantage since their full arsenal of options are viable at any range.

When the platform is in play, it will move from right to left at a good walk off height for Ike. It does grant us the benefit of an extra layer for escaping projectiles and some combos, but it's extra length doesn't help us when trying to approach from afar. Most characters will have plenty of time to adapt their strategy before you reach the end. The platform being a good walk off height allows Ike to frame trap and punish those above (a lot of Ike's attacks can reach that height no problem), but it's extra length makes it harder to anticipate where your opponent will be for such actions (The have a lot of area to roll/run around on!). F-air and U-air chasing will be key when attacking the platform instead of U-smash or U-tilt because of this. This same thing applies against Ike when he's on the platform. Any opponent with a good aerial game will give Ike a hard time when he's above them since his ability to pressure those below the platform is rather weak. (A well timed d-air is pretty much it, and it's horizontal hitbox range leaves a lot to be desired.)

The smooth base can't be jumped through, but can be sharked if you keep Ike's deep recovery towards the sloped edges. The roaming platform does give us an extra platform to focus on for recovery, but it can't be snapped to which means opponents can capitalize on our landing lag for a grab combo (and a potential walk-off KO). That roaming platform also makes it harder to use Eruption for edge guarding since characters with superior recovery options can just avoid us all together, which forces us to take the fight off stage to secure the kill. (Where most characters with good recovery options thrive.)

Taking everything into account, Smashville is a good stage for Ike but should probably be avoided since a lot of MUs that can give Ike trouble gain more benefits than we do. Characters like Sheik, Rosie and Diddy get much more benefits with the stage than we do, and characters that we are pretty close to even with (like Sonic, Captain Falcon and Luigi for example) can use the wide open spaces of both the base and platform to keep their combo games going. Not to mention the extra recovery options available to all the characters with good recoveries (like the Dreamlanders, Sonic with his Spring, all the Skylanders and such) gain if the roaming platform is over the edge on that side of the stage they are recovering on. Projectile users this stage I'd say is more preference, since fast projectile users are going to love it since it's wide open while those with a slower projectile will not be able to touch us when the roaming platform is over the base. Could be a good stage against Link, but terrible against Falco or Megaman.

What do you guys think?

Credits: I did use the Smash Acadamy's Research thread for some of my Smashville information. The thread is found here: http://smashboards.com/threads/smashville-stage-research.385597/

 

[PyroTakun]

As an Ike main in MD/VA where Smashville is THE starter stage, I'll put in my 2 cents real quick.

I do like the size of the stage, it's fairly small and doesn't give the opponent too much wiggle-room to avoid Ike. The ledges are angled, so they're Aether-friendly, and the platform can also help with recoveries depending on the situation. U-Airs are good for poking through the platform. If you're lucky you can get an easy B-Throw or F-Throw kill depending on it's placement, but the best part of it is when you can read when your opponent is going to land on it and catch them with a F-Air, B-Air, or U-Air.

The problem this stage presents is how greatly it benefits some characters, notably Sheik and Ness who can combo F-Airs, land on the platform, then combo more F-Airs which sometimes go straight into KOs. Actually the entire cast is now able to KO Ike easier if they catch you off-guard or put you in a bad spot where you have to land on the platform.

And I'm not sure how many of you have fought good Villagers, but the things he can do with the moving platform are pretty slick (using the bowling ball on the edge of the moving platform, planting the tree on the platform so it's not in a static location.)

Overall, it's an "okay" stage for Ike, but it's a godsend for others. Picking this stage definitely comes down to the Match-Up and personal preference more than anything.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

@ san. Would it be a good idea to merge this with the stage discussion thread?

 

[GhostUrsa]

Corneria, 4th planet of the Lylat system.

Andross isn't the only thing to worry about for Ike. This level is large, with decent blastzones from the edge and a low blastzone off the top. The asynchronous design gives Ike a lot to play with, since the Great Fox isn't a flat platform. We have an easy time avoiding aerial juggles and projectiles because of this (short hop auto cancels are harder to rely on in the heat of battle), which makes this a much more intimate fight in order to sinch the KO (You'll see grabs becoming more frequent to rack up damage or control the stage). Both the front of the ship and the back allow for Sharking for defense during recovery and the lack of walls underneath the ship makes it hard for wall jumpers to get around our Eruption. That low ceiling allows us to KO early, but the same goes against us. The low flying ships can be both a boon and a hazard since we (and our opponent) have another means to get around the stage but also get shot at.

Biggest problem areas are going to be on the right side of the ship, as our low weight will make us combo fodder if we get thrown against the tail fin of the Great Fox. Our lower dash speed makes it hard for us to use that fin against our opponent, especially if they tech. Another area will be preventing campers from hiding on the Fox's main gun, which our limited mobility will prevent us from being able to properly giving chase (or surviving if we do chase but need to return to the top of the ship).

3DS Ikes that find themselves in a tournament with this stage may want to strike this one against opponents with superior air mobility (camping on the gun) or a good grab game(tail fin bouncing and off the top KOs).

What do you 3DS Ikes think? Anything I'm not taking into account?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Honestly, I don't know what to say to this. Mainly because 3DS tournaments seem to be phasing out, so almost no one really will be able to give you a strong grasp on the matchup stage ratio for Ike. If someone has 3DS info, though, I'm fine for that discussion going.

Also, can we talk about the other stages? I don't want to start getting off-topic or be rude, but I've got a couple of new finds for stages I'd like to contribute for several characters. I'll be at TFC this weekend, so I already know my major opponents will be Top 10 in NC. One is a Roy (Ian), a Little Mac (LazyBoredom), and Sonic (Kai, a.k.a. #1 in NC).

Starters at TFC will be 5 (BF, FD, SV, T&C, LC) while CPs will be 4 (DL, Halberd, DP, CS)

Roy
Ban: SV, LC. Banning SV and LC keeps him from using Up B and USmash platform gimmicks.
CP Ban: Halberd, CS. If he goes Dream Land, he runs the risk of getting pineapple'd due to his limited recovery.
CP: Delfino Plaza.

I actually don't know what stages to pick against him, especially since he's fairly similar to Ike. However, DP gives us the edge since we have more effective water kills if he goes swimming.

Little Mac
Ban: SV, FD. It's likely he'll ban LC, since it will jank his recovery. Likely go to BF or T&C, which is advantageous for our platform setups. Only thing is to worry about Up B kills on top platform, which MVG Sol is really good at.
Ban CP: Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza. Never giving him walk-off ledges to work with.
CP: Battlefield or Dream Land.

Sonic
Ban: Smashville, Town and City. FD is pure neutral, BF gives us platform advantage, and Lylat screws up his setups. SV and T&C give him more combo options.
Ban CP: T&C, SV. I don't see the actual CP's being a problem.
CP: Delfino Plaza, Battlefield, or Dream Land.

Wario
Ban: TBD
Ban CP: Duck Hunt
CP: TBD
*I have only played Reflex in two matches now. He told me he had a bad time fighting me on Battlefield. However, he seemed to have a good time chasing me around on platforms while I was trying to land, going with repeated Uair juggles. I don't see how the stage benefits us particularly well, or any better than against him. Smashville sounds risky since it's likely he can Fair/Nair combo us off the platform ala Sheik. Final Destination does not seem problematic. I will have to play him again to see.

If I can get past these guys, I'll have Fatality to worry about in Winner's Finals, who is clearly the strongest person in the tournament. I want to focus on getting out of pools and getting through main bracket first, however.

 

[GhostUrsa]

I have no problem fleshing out other stages. I originally planned to change topics weekly, but real life gets in the way for me at times. That and I'm trying to parse through all the data on character MU stage recommendations from the thread you asked to be merged into this one so it will be on the OP for quick reference. The mission statement of this thread was to cover all the stages for any possible tournament an Ike player could be in the future. 3DS tournaments are dying down, though I hear that online tournaments still are a thing, and since we had focused on Wii U stages for a bit I wanted to give the 3DS Ike players that are on this forum (and there are a few on the site, though I see them on the Online section more than here) something to potentially weigh in on.

With Roy, I really haven't fought him on any stages I feel need to be avoided. I can see why Smashville and TnC could be potential scratches with Roy's speed making platform punishes more available, but Ike isn't much of a slouch vs him on platforms either. I agree that Mac needs as limited of foot space as possible, though CS's other transformations and quite a few of DP strongly favor Ike so I'm not sure that every Ike needs to scratch those as well. I feel those levels may go into the "you'll have trouble here" category, as an Ike with a good defense game could wait out those transformations until the time is right to strike on the other two. Sonic I agree upon completely. I'll update the OP with these findings.

As for a new stage, I'd like to focus on Halberd a bit. This transformation stage has a major hazard for Ike for 2 games now, and Smash 4 is no exception. The blast zones are small, which has always been a double edges sword for Ike. It is something that definitely helps him against lighter characters with weak knockback which will allow his weight keep him in the fight more, but that doesn't qualify much of the cast and those lighter characters have other tools to use this stage to their advantage. Ike's speed can make it difficult to avoid a KO when the main platform disengages from the dock or the battleship if your opponent has a good set of gimping tools, which makes characters with projectiles potentially deadly if they can get their timing right.

The main platform can be jumped through the bottom when it isn't docked with something, which makes Ike's snapping require more accuracy from the player to get right and allows characters with good aerial mobility, like Jiggs, Kirby,and Metaknight, to assault us from below with little pressure in return. Opponents with good aerial juggles can use the lower ceiling blastzone to their advantage since we are easier to juggle, making this stage a scratch against characters like Sheik, ZSS and Metaknight.

Once docked with the Battleship Halberd, the stage's hazards become an available nuisance. Ike isn't slow enough where they are a guaranteed nightmare, but momentum can be hard to gain with Ike and the cannon/claw definitely like to strike when we should be pressuring our opponent. Halberd's main deck definitely is larger than the main platform used for the transformations, which gives Little Mac and other brawlers mores pace to do their thing. I'd definitely avoid fighting here against Sonic, since that higher platform is at a great height on the main deck for Sonic to have a lot of play.

What do you guys think? Anything MU specific you want to call out that wasn't mentioned? Other past topics you want to expand upon as well? Bring it up. I definitely want the OP to be as accurate to the current MU as I can.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

R.O.B. and Rosalina must be avoided as much as possible on Halberd. Do not let them pick this stage. R.O.B. can get the early kill on you with UThrow, and Rosalina can just go under the stage and juggle you like in Delfino Plaza.

Having returned from TFC, I can safely say two things:

1) Do not allow Sonic to go to Final Destination or Duck Hunt. If you are forced to drop your counterpicks, go to Smashville instead.

Worst: Final Destination
Second worst: Duck Hunt
Third worst: Town & City

2) Do not allow Diddy Kong to get Lylat Cruise or Duck Hunt. If your hand is forced, just go to Smashville or maybe FD. If you get a DSR, try Delfino. I played very poorly against Stingers on Delfino. He seemed more experienced with the stage than I did.

Matchup vids will be available as soon as SmashStudios posts them on YouTube.

 

[Mario766]

I thought it was already established that those two stages are Sonic's best stages, so you always avoid going there.

 

[1337Kai]

In my experiences in tourneys, it really depends on the match up. Avoid Battlefield if you face a combo heavy character like Falcon or Sheik. But if you don't face some one like them, Ike can put some serious pressure from under the platform since his up air covers most of the platforms there. Plus, Aether spiking is much easier to land because of the ledges (in my experience).

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I thought it was already established that those two stages are Sonic's best stages, so you always avoid going there.

I fought well against Sonic on Final Destination. Then I realized it was because of Smashladder. I suck at Smashville and I've had a Sonic almost beat me down on Town & City. Again, the latter online. Yet I don't see how the Animal Crossing stages help Ike any against Sonic or Diddy.

All things considered, Ike's best stages - in most cases - are Battlefield and Dream Land. Smashville is a straight-up neutral that seems to be better against facing Sonic than Final Destination does. In rare exceptions, characters such as Rosalina will kill us on BF/DL, while Sheik must NOT be taken to Smashville under any circumstance. Given those exceptions, right now our focus should be to establish several things:

1) Ike's worst matchups
2) Which stages to avoid.
3) Which stages to pick if BF/DL end up getting banned or stricken via Dave's Stupid Rule.

Ike's general bad matchups are Diddy, Sonic, Rosalina, Luigi, Meta-Knight, and Sheik. Other general high tiers, such as Captain Falcon, Mario, and Yoshi, tend to have a more even matchup against Ike, so stage picking isn't priority against them as you can beat them in most neutral settings. All of these listed options will be edited as users chime in.

Vs. Diddy
Bad stages - Lylat Cruise, Duck Hunt
Good stages - Smashville
*Do not ever take Diddy to Lylat Cruise. He can pressure you and simply keep you from landing the entire match. Don't forget the Banana Peel can cover one platform.

Vs. Sonic
Bad stages - Final Destination, Duck Hunt
Good stages - Smashville, Delfino Plaza
*Having watched Ryo beat StaticManny's Sonic on Smashville, the stage is at least practical. It's just well-known in the community that Sonic's best stage is FD.
**Notice that perhaps the most crucial weapon is Sonic's arsenal is his grab game. Kill-setups and long grab range are his bread and butter here. Taking Sonic to a platform-oriented stage takes out one of those options. If you land on a platform, he'll be forced to rely on Uair, Fair, and Nair. Nair only kills at 160% roughly, and Fair is only dangerous if he can get a juggle off the platform on Smashville or near the ledge for a three-juggle kill.

Vs. Rosalina & Luma
Bad stages - Battlefield, Dream Land, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Town & City
Good stages - Smashville, Final Destination
*On Battlefield and Dream Land, she uses our own platform game against us. On Delfino Plaza and Halberd, she can go under the stage for free Uairs. She can also use the high platform of Delfino to score early kills with Uair juggles, just as she can on Town & City. Duck Hunt also seems fairly practical as her high kills are less reliable thanks to the high blast zone, and with smart play, she won't get you onto the tree for free juggles.

Vs. Luigi
Bad stages - Town & City, Delfino Plaza
Good stages - Duck Hunt
*His Luigi Cyclone is his most valuable kill move. Given Duck Hunt's high blast zone, it will take much longer for him to kill here. Learned while fighting Dandy Penguin at TFC.

Vs. Sheik
Bad stages - Smashville
Good stages - Delfino Plaza
*If it's not a given already, Sheik can kill you quickly using the platform for Fair combos.

Vs. R.O.B.
Bad stages - Battlefield, Dream Land
Good stages - Final Destination
*I'm on the fence with Lylat Cruise, having not played ROB here. The platforms could benefit his combos, but also throw off his approach and projectiles. Same for the constantly leaning stage platform. When I played Raffi-X, he picked Halberd since the small blast zone and platform are ideal for early kills with UThrow. However, it backfired. Also, him trying to recover from hugging the stage is suicide since you can hit him with DTilt, Dair, or Eruption. Point is, the fewer platforms, the better. Otherwise, he can setup Uair juggles on you or even DThrow, airdodge read, and USmash you at 80% for a kill.

Insufficient data for Meta Knight, as I have very rarely fought them, and none offline.

That said, I have no idea how Castle Siege, Halberd, and Lylat Cruise will work for us against most characters in the game. Unless you fight a heavyweight or another character whose movement is impeded, Lylat Cruise is not the most practical stage. Castle Siege leaves you with stage hazards, such as early kills on the walk-off of Part 2 and players forcing you to miss the platform of Part 3 or even the extra worry about gimping on there. It's a double-edged sword all-around.

Halberd, much like Lylat Cruise, features a slope that ruins our short-hop auto-cancels. We'll end up with more landing lag from aerials that will throw us off and give most of our opponents a free punish.

This post will be updated with more info. Please let me know if you have anything to add to the list.

 

[PyroTakun]

I fought well against Sonic on Final Destination. Then I realized it was because of Smashladder. I suck at Smashville and I've had a Sonic almost beat me down on Town & City. Again, the latter online. Yet I don't see how the Animal Crossing stages help Ike any against Sonic or Diddy.

All things considered, Ike's best stages - in most cases - are Battlefield and Dream Land. Smashville is a straight-up neutral that seems to be better against facing Sonic than Final Destination does. In rare exceptions, characters such as Rosalina will kill us on BF/DL, while Sheik must NOT be taken to Smashville under any circumstance. Given those exceptions, right now our focus should be to establish several things:

1) Ike's worst matchups
2) Which stages to avoid.
3) Which stages to pick if BF/DL end up getting banned or stricken via Dave's Stupid Rule.

Ike's general bad matchups are Diddy, Sonic, Rosalina, Luigi, Meta-Knight, and Sheik. Other general high tiers, such as Captain Falcon, Mario, and Yoshi, tend to have a more even matchup against Ike, so stage picking isn't priority against them as you can beat them in most neutral settings. All of these listed options will be edited as users chime in.

Vs. Diddy
Bad stages - Lylat Cruise, Duck Hunt
Good stages - Smashville
*Do not ever take Diddy to Lylat Cruise. He can pressure you and simply keep you from landing the entire match. Don't forget the Banana Peel can cover one platform.

Vs. Sonic
Bad stages - Final Destination, Duck Hunt
Good stages - Smashville, Delfino Plaza
*Having watched Ryo beat StaticManny's Sonic on Smashville, the stage is at least practical. It's just well-known in the community that Sonic's best stage is FD.
**Notice that perhaps the most crucial weapon is Sonic's arsenal is his grab game. Kill-setups and long grab range are his bread and butter here. Taking Sonic to a platform-oriented stage takes out one of those options. If you land on a platform, he'll be forced to rely on Uair, Fair, and Nair. Nair only kills at 160% roughly, and Fair is only dangerous if he can get a juggle off the platform on Smashville or near the ledge for a three-juggle kill.

Vs. Rosalina & Luma
Bad stages - Battlefield, Dream Land, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Town & City
Good stages - Smashville, Final Destination
*On Battlefield and Dream Land, she uses our own platform game against us. On Delfino Plaza and Halberd, she can go under the stage for free Uairs. She can also use the high platform of Delfino to score early kills with Uair juggles, just as she can on Town & City. Duck Hunt also seems fairly practical as her high kills are less reliable thanks to the high blast zone, and with smart play, she won't get you onto the tree for free juggles.

Vs. Luigi
Bad stages - Town & City, Delfino Plaza
Good stages - Duck Hunt
*His Luigi Cyclone is his most valuable kill move. Given Duck Hunt's high blast zone, it will take much longer for him to kill here. Learned while fighting Dandy Penguin at TFC.

Vs. Sheik
Bad stages - Smashville
Good stages - Delfino Plaza
*If it's not a given already, Sheik can kill you quickly using the platform for Fair combos.

Insufficient data for Meta Knight, as I have very rarely fought them, and none offline.

That said, I have no idea how Castle Siege, Halberd, and Lylat Cruise will work for us against most characters in the game. Unless you fight a heavyweight or another character whose movement is impeded, Lylat Cruise is not the most practical stage. Castle Siege leaves you with stage hazards, such as early kills on the walk-off of Part 2 and players forcing you to miss the platform of Part 3 or even the extra worry about gimping on there. It's a double-edged sword all-around.

Halberd, much like Lylat Cruise, features a slope that ruins our short-hop auto-cancels. We'll end up with more landing lag from aerials that will throw us off and give most of our opponents a free punish.

This post will be updated with more info. Please let me know if you have anything to add to the list.

For Meta Knight you want to avoid stages with low ceilings at all times. Ike gets juggled too easily, and MK is probably one of the best jugglers in the game and gets easy/ early kills off of it. I'd say FD and Duck Hunt are the best stages to take a MK to since the ceilings are decently high and the platforms are far and few between/ non-existent.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Actually, I thought Battlefield had a higher ceiling? But then again, FD doesn't have the juggle platforms, and Meta Knight doesn't have the same obsessive stage control and grab range that Sonic does.

 

[GhostUrsa]

From what data I was able to look up, FD and Duck Hunt have a lower ceiling than Battlefield. The issue I'm sure is the potential for a star KO due to MK's positioning on the platforms when you are above him, though this is still possible on Duck Hunt if he gets you into the tree. From my experience though, Battlefield's layout would mostly work for him if we tried to evade above him while he was on a platform which would be a terrible idea. (Try to keep your feet on the ground against MK is usually the rule of thumb from what I've seen/experienced unless something has chnaged)

Lets change focus of the main topic now that I've mostly gotten caught up on all the new notes in this thread since it was merged. Castle Siege is unique, given it's status as Ike's home stage. It comes with 3 transformations available that give Ike both advantages and disadvantages; fighting on the battlements, inside the castle's throne room, and in the underground cavern under the castle.

The fight starts up on the battlements, which has 2 platforms at staggered heights above a sloped base. This design makes it harder for projectile users to rely on their tools to keep us at bay, but walk off aerials will be harder to perform with auto-cancelling and some of our tilts maybe less effective depending on what side of the battlement you are on. Blastzones are of a good size, with u-tilt KOs being slightly easier on the right platform. The new ledge mechanics make this less hazardous for us when we need to Aether recover low, since we can hug the lower part of the stage to both shark defenders and help hide us from potential attacks from above. The platforms aren't flush with the base, which makes it harder to use them as a landing to avoid Eruptions or other edge-guarding options from us when the opponent is recovering level with the base.

The Throne room's walk offs make it a harder location to fight in against those with great juggles, so care will need to be taken since the side blastzones are closer. The top blastzone is actually farther away, which makes fighting on the flags slightly less hazardous for us than our opponents. The two statues that hold the platforms are a good height for walk-off aerials and frame trapping, which is nice when trying to pressure our opponents. The fact that these statues have hurtboxes is both a blessing and a curse, since it keeps our moves fresh but the hit animation lag could throw off our timing. That and if the statues are destroyed we lose some mobility options.

The underground cavern gives us most of the same benefits/limitations that Final Destination does, with the added effect of Lylat's tilt to keep things interesting. Opponents that Ike would prefer to fight on FD will give us less trouble here unless they have some good speed to them, as they could tilt the base away from us during a lower recovery as a possible gimp option. The sliding can throw off both our and our opponent's spacing, so adaptation is key here.

Last big thing with this stage is the transitions, which slowly raise an invisible floor from the deep blastzone while we wait for the next location to show up. This can save a character that is falling to their death, and temporarily gives good jugglers a chance to attempt to KO us from the blastzone. The extra luck in recovery is nice for us, but extreme amounts of defense should be taken here to make sure we don't get juggled/thrown to the side and blasted.

Adaptation is probably a good reason to pick this arena for Ike, as a good player that has a strong attention to detail could use these changes to their advantage. What do the rest of you think? This arena is very unique since it has 3 distinct locations that benefit some characters but never holds the advantage for long. This makes it for me to make any recommendations when avoiding characters here, as most of the cast has an issue with at least one of the transformations.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

GhostUrsa On my kill percents thread, I tested out kill moves. Sheik died at 96% to UTilt on Final Destination while it took 100% to kill her on the main platform on Battlefield. USmash at 82% on FD, 86% on BF.

http://smashboards.com/threads/compiling-data-for-kill-percents-on-characters.416227/

As for Castle Siege, I feel that given Ike's fair "sluggishness" and ability to get punished, we don't have the advantage against most of the roster on this stage, especially on Part 2. Once we're inside the castle, they'll do anything to bait us or grab and string us to the ledges and get that perfect kill. Without a strong, fast DSmash or reliable way to knock them off for an early kill, it doesn't seem to benefit us. Meanwhile, Sheik loves this stage since they can setup a grab into a Bouncing Fish combo.

If we're going to get the kill, it needs to be on Part 1 since the stage is small enough to favor us there.

Skip to 11:12. If we can use anything from this on how to use Ike on Castle Siege, it would help tremendously. I've always been iffy about this stage.

 

[GhostUrsa]

As for Castle Siege, I feel that given Ike's fair "sluggishness" and ability to get punished, we don't have the advantage against most of the roster on this stage, especially on Part 2. Once we're inside the castle, they'll do anything to bait us or grab and string us to the ledges and get that perfect kill. Without a strong, fast DSmash or reliable way to knock them off for an early kill, it doesn't seem to benefit us. Meanwhile, Sheik loves this stage since they can setup a grab into a Bouncing Fish combo.

Section 2 is the most dangerous part of the stage for Ike, I agree. I hadn't taken into account that the Throne Room's platforms would benefit those with low ending lag for combos just as much as it would benefit us with our walk-offs. That combo-extension I feel cancels out any advantages Ike may get in that area.

I just thought of Pikachu being problematic on the Battlements as well. Thunderbolt's ability to wrap around surfaces can definitely get in the way here with deep recoveries more than normal due to the wall below the ledge. Our ability to shark to potentially out-priority the bolt ahead of time is limited because the wall restricts how much distance we get with sharking.

How does Sheik handle the Underground cavern against Ike? I feel that our chances are similar to FD but slightly in our favor since needles will have a harder time being accurate. The tourney's I've been to don't allows Castle Siege, which means my exposure with good Sheiks there is non-existent. If she has the advantage in the Throne Room, but has a disadvantage in the Cavern and on the battlements I can see this being an option for a good defensive Ike player.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I haven't fought any Sheik players as Ike on that stage, but I have my match as Link if that helps any.

 

[GhostUrsa]

I haven't fought any Sheik players as Ike on that stage, but I have my match as Link if that helps any.

The few times she used needles down there, Link's shield looked to intercept it so I'm not sure if the Underground is a wash-out. There is a small hump that could throw it projectiles off, but the rocking doesn't look to be significant enough to help unless both combatants are at close range. (Which most projectile uses won't fire them off unless it's for a Mix-up) I like that the statues keep out projectiles, which should help Ike play defensively here. The level feels like it should be a 'for a change of pace' option for Ike, as I see it as having more disadvantages than advantages against some of Ike's harder match-ups.

For a fresh topic on this thread, Duck Hunt is a stage that makes it into most tournaments that I feel needs some attention for Ike players. The stage's length grants Ike plenty of room to maneuver, though this space gives speedsters a chance to give Ike a run for his money. The bush on the right side is a small sized platform, which is low enough to the ground for u-tilt to strike the surface but also grants Ike some much needed reach against high recoveries. The tree on the left side of the battlefield has 5 platforms on each of the branches, and can be problematic for Ike to reach without a second jump. Since our U-Smash can't even reach the lower boughs of the tree, this will be a hard area to defend when keeping players off-stage. Characters with good air games and speed can potentially chase us up that tree for some aggressive combos that will be hard to negotiate that low to the ceiling.

The dog's appearance on the field can grant us some good upsets when stuck in ground combos, but it is too unreliable to take into our offensive strategy. U-smash does cover the dog's height, so a fast Ike can capitalize on another player's surprise for the sudden elevation change.

Since the main platform is solid down to the blast zone, care has to be taken with our recoveries. Our ability to shark the ledge is nearly non-existent, and characters with a good spike will have an easier time to strike us with the reduced field of recovery. The high ceilings grant us some extra wiggle room, and on the left side we can use the tree to our advantage with a well timed QD. Since our ability to attack below a platform is restricted, you'll want to avoid being in the tree for long.

The two biggest issues we have to worry about is the mentioned high ceilings and the changes to the hurtbox/hitboxes due to the 2D structure of the level. That high ceiling makes KOing opponents off the top nearly impossible without a hard read, so gimps and side blastzones (Which are fairly close) will need to be our focus. On the right side, this will be easier to do for us than on the left since pivot-Fsmash can cover the bush and any rolls done from the ledge and our traditional edge-guarding tools work for the lower recoveries well.

The changes to hurtboxes and hitboxes seem minor but have a big affect on our play style. Since there is no Z-axis all detection boxes become 2D planes, so some boxes will be smaller while others will be bigger. Our crouch will not be quite as lower as we expect here, and our f-tilt and d-tilt lose some of their width here as well. Good news for our attack options is that our u-tilt, jabs and smashes retain/improve in hit detection here. Understanding how we, and our opponents, get affected by this change in dimension will play a decent part in how a player is effective here.

All in all, I'd place this level in the 'avoid unless you have to fight here' category. The space grants speedsters too much room to maneuver, the tree's platforms favor air-borne combatants and combo-players with a good jump too much and the change to 2D gives projectile users a slight advantage. If I had to fight on this stage, I'd probably fight against opponents that excel at KO's from the top and try to avoid fighting on the left side of the stage. Rosie may not be a bad choice to take here, since she doesn't get much from the change to 2D and the higher ceilings make it harder for her to get us. Ganondorf would be another character I'd take here, since we'd have an easier time outliving some of his heavier strikes.

What do you guys think? Are there any match-ups you feel would benefit us on this stage?

 

[Prepare_Yourself]

Congrats on Smash Ace! Some of us can only dream...

 

[PyroTakun]

I'm not too big of a fan of Duck Hunt, mostly only used for characters who KO off the top mad easy. Unfortunately, the characters who do that are fairly common and not fun to fight with Ike

- Rosa
- Zero Suit Samus
- Meta Knight

If for some reason you haven't switched off of Ike, take these characters to Duck Hunt. Also, whatever you do, do NOT take Pikachu here (or any other stage with walls.) Pikachu can easily camp on stage and annoy/ gimp your aether recovery if you have to position yourself too close to the wall.

On the plus side, walk-off F-Airs are wonderful on this stage

 

[Deleted member 269706]

As far as Duck Hunt goes, I'm not the biggest fan of this one. First of all, the lack of platforms makes approaching harder, especially against a projectile heavy character. On top of this, the ducks can interrupt combos and cause opponents to avoid true nair > fair or nair > uair combos. I don't think anything in this stage particularly benefits Ike, but the trees can provide another recovery option when needed. Yet these platforms aren't enough to interrupt you from being juggled or provide Ike with a good way to approach a spammy player. The vertical walls on this stage do allow for some cool stage spikes, but of course, that means you may get stage spiked as well, so it's a pretty double-edged sword. I think this stage benefits Ike most against characters like Captain Falcon who don't use projectiles and tend to be the ones to apply pressure in the match-up. The lack of platforms in center stage usually means that you won't get uair comboed to up B near as much, so that's a plus. Though in the end, I don't think of this as a very advantageous stage for Ike. Just my two cents.