• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Data Stage Changes When Hazard Toggle is On

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
This thread is intended not to make any arguments about what we should do but simply to represent facts I've gleaned from studying very large amounts of footage of Smash Ultimate's demo and ask for help from others who might have seen some stuff I haven't. I strongly suspect hazards off is an unfinished setting so some of this behavior may change, but for now, here's what all the stages I've seen used in the demo do. If anyone has seen or experienced hazards off matches on any of the demo stages I haven't seen, please let us know what they do; it would be nice to be able to fully document this behavior so we can understand it going forward. In general, matches in the "stock" mode in the demo use hazards off whereas "time" matches have the hazards present; if you're going through footage, this rule of thumb should help you figure it out.

Battlefield

No changes.

Final Destination

No changes, also known not to be the "real" Final Destination in the demo (it's Omega Battlefield).

Suzaku Castle

No changes, including the destructible signs actually. They still exist and can be broken as per usual.

Peach's Castle (Melee)

The side platforms do not move and are permanently frozen in a fairly low position. No buttons appear which means none of the extra platforms or blocks ever appear. Bullet Bills do not attack the stage.

Moray Towers

No changes? As far as I think anyone has seen, the stage has no moving or interactive elements in the first place. If it does have some we don't know about, they aren't there with hazards off. This stage does have day and night backgrounds, unclear if there's any significance at all to them or if it's just like Smashville/Town and City in that regard.

Great Plateau Tower

The large object that normally can be destroyed is indestructible. Yes, that means hazards off makes there be a permanent ceiling over the center of the stage here.

Green Hill Zone

The checkpoint does not appear and the stage does not crumble.

Wily Castle

Absolutely no interactive objects appear at all, neither the Yellow Devil nor any of the special platforms. This makes it very similar to Final Destination.

Boxing Ring

The top platform still sways a little when they jump on it like before, but to my observation, it didn't fall. The ropes are still springy.

Green Greens

The blocks no longer spawn at all, and the wind no longer blows. No known footage exists and current reports do not mention fruit spawns, but given the other changes, it seems very likely they are no longer present.

Mario Galaxy

No changes!

Skyworld

I didn't see this personally, but I read reports on this topic that seemed credible. The platforms allegedly cannot be destroyed and the lowest traveling platform simply never comes.

Kongo Falls

The lower barrel is simply gone and no Klaptrap ever spawns (not that I have seen one in Ultimate yet in general), but the rest of the stage's geography appears to be in-tact. As memory serves most of the ground on this stage moved very slightly in Melee, but it was subtle and it's not easy to tell watching whether hazards off causes any shifts to this dynamic if it's even still present in Ultimate at all (all the background/aesthetic stuff still visually flows and sways making it even harder to eyeball).

Coliseum

The various platforms to not ever rise from the ground which makes this simply a completely flat, completely non-interactive stage with walk-offs on both sides.

Town and City

The stage still transforms between its two forms like before, but the platforms don't otherwise move in-between transformations (the center platform of the three platform formation seems to be frozen in its lowest position). To my observation no balloons spawn in, but it's very hard to be sure of that fact just watching footage.

Tortimer Island

No fruit spawns from the trees, the boat doesn't come, and no sharks inhabit the water. The water is still swimmable. We have seen footage of two games on this stage, one in the demo and one outside of it, and they have two different lay-outs with the non-demo one being highly irregular. More research is needed to conclude if hazards off changes random generation somehow, but current evidence suggests the stage does not have a fixed form in hazards off.

Prism Tower

The stage appears completely unchanged; it still cycles through all of its transformations as per normal.

Spirit Train

This stage no longer has additional cars or other trains attack the main stage or otherwise transform it so it stays in its initial three car lay-out, and the blast zones no longer shift around. The track is still a scrolling "danger zone" similar to the ground on Big Blue, and hitting the front of the train from the track still serves as a damaging hazard that does 12% damage with low knockback. One passthrough platform still scrolls in from the left, hovers over the smokestack for a bit, and then scrolls off to the right, but none of the stage's other dynamic platforms and such ever appear.

Lylat Cruise

The stage no longer tilts at all. The background still does the "loading" effect to transition to new areas, but the area chosen appears to always be the empty space background (no things like the asteroid belt or the big dogfight).

New Pork City

The Ultimate Chimera never spawns, the central pendulum never swings, and the bottom destructible platform neither takes damage nor breaks. It is unclear if the limo still spawns since the part of the stage occupied by the limo is rarely in focus, but the smart money is on it being gone too.

Saffron City

The door on the upper building never opens which means no Pokemon ever attack the stage. The two moving platforms on the left are frozen in place awkwardly at the very top of their normal movement pattern which makes the leftmost building even more of an island than it was before.

Frigate Orpheon

The lights never go out, the stage never flips, and the two extra platforms that would otherwise randomly move in from the left/right blastzones never appear. The moving platform on the right continues to move up and down as per usual unlike moving platforms on some other stages, and while not unique to hazards off, it's worth noting for anyone who doesn't know that both the right side of that moving platform and the right side of the main solid ground of the stage are now grabbable ledges (they weren't in Brawl).

Stages not in the original demo:

Peach's Castle

The lowest platform never moves; it is permanently frozen in the exact middle of its normal movement. The bumper up top is gone but the two blue "wedge" objects are still present.

Kongo Jungle

The barrel does not exist, and the two central platforms are frozen at a fairly high position approximately on the level of the two side platforms and perfectly in line with each other.

Hyrule Castle

There are no tornadoes but otherwise it is identical.

Super Happy Tree

The clouds still exist. Our only footage did not show the players landing on them so we do not know if they still disappear when stood on.

Dream Land

The wind does not blow; this is the only difference in the stage.

Mushroom Kingdom 64

The weight platforms in the middle are simple gone, and Piranha Plants do not spawn out of the pipes. It is unknown if the pipes can still be entered; neither player tried in the only footage we have of this stage.

Princess Peach's Castle

Banzai Bill never attacks, and none of the buttons that spawn blocks and extra platforms ever spawn. The two platforms on the left and right that normally move up and down are frozen at their lowest positions.

Rainbow Cruise

The stage remains on only the boat form indefinitely.

Jungle Japes

Klaptrap never spawns in the river, but otherwise the stage is identical including the swimmable water that constantly pulls players very strongly to the left.

Great Bay

The turtle never submerges, and Tingle never spawns. I believe the leftmost platform does not wobble, but I'm not 100% sure on this point. The water on this stage is swimmable in Ultimate if anyone was unclear on that.

Brinstar

The acid never spawns from the bottom of the stage. The breakable terrain is completely uninteractive; the two breakable pillars can be passed through freely with no interaction, and the bottom breakable object doesn't take damage and can be walked across freely. It is unclear if the bottom breakable object can be passed through from below like the rest of the stage in this form.

Yoshi's Island Melee

The turn blocks are simply solid objects that cannot be hit and cannot be passed through.

Yoshi's Story

The cloud platform cycling at the bottom of the stage known as "Randall" in some circles does not exist. Otherwise the stage is unchanged. Worth noting that early reports are that the stage is larger than it was in Melee and is all around more similar to Battlefield.

Fountain of Dreams

The platforms do not move. Otherwise the stage is unchanged and seemingly identical to Battlefield.

Corneria

No arwings ever attack. The main gun never fires. The main gun is still visibly present, but in our only footage on this stage, no player ever attempted to interact with it to see if it could be destroyed or stood on.

Venom

I was not able to observe any differences in this stage with hazards off, but I cannot assure that they do not exist.

Pokemon Stadium

This stage is permanently frozen in its "normal" form it usually has between transformations. The background screen still does everything it usually does. It is worth noting that in Ultimate it seems hard to distinguish between Pokemon Stadium and Pokemon Stadium 2 in this state.

Mushroom Kingdom II

Birdo, the logs, and Pidgit never spawn which results in this being a fully static stage.

Brinstar Depths

Kraid is absent and the stage does not rotate. I have only been told about this and not observed it directly so I cannot yet provide a good summary of the layout chosen (TODO: provide such an update).

Delfino Plaza

The stage still tours and seems identical to its hazards on form.

Mushroomy Kingdom

The stage still scrolls to the right as per usual. It is worth noting that 1-2 does not seem to exist in Smash Ultimate from current knowledge. (TODO: check on breakability of bricks).

Figure-8 Circuit

No cars are present on the track. Otherwise the stage is identical.

WarioWare Inc.

The stage does not ever begin any microgames. Therefore, it is a simple flat stage with platforms.

Bridge of Eldin

King Bulbin does not ever spawn meaning the bridge never breaks.

Norfair

The stage does not ever spawn any lava, fire pillars, safe houses, or any other interactive factors. The simple "V" shape of the five platforms is the entire stage.

Yoshi's Island

The central platform does not tilt, and the support ghosts do not spawn.

Halberd

The various hazards (claw, bombs, laser) that would normally attack when on the main deck of the ship simply do not. Otherwise the stage follows the same script as per usual, launching from a walk-off very early in the match and then cycling between two forms.

Pokemon Stadium 2

This stage is permanently frozen in its "normal" form it usually has between transformations. The background screen still does everything it usually does. It is worth noting that in Ultimate it seems hard to distinguish between Pokemon Stadium and Pokemon Stadium 2 in this state.

Port Town Aero Dive

There are no cars at all, but otherwise the stage still plays out its usual movement. The one wall that encroaches on the left side of the stage briefly can still hit you, and the moving track can still hurt you. It is worth noting that unlike in all previous Smash games the ledges of the moving platform on this stage are grabbable. I am also going to be very upset at the first person to refer to this stage as "Port Town Aero Drive", the most annoying possible mistake to make on any stage's name.

Castle Siege

The stage never transforms from its first "outside" form.

Distant Planet

It never rains, the flowers never grow, and the Bulborb never spawns on the right side of the stage. I have only heard about this from reports and not observed it personally so I cannot comment on whether the main platform is still flexible or if the leaves still sag when players jump on them (TODO: Make those observations).

Smashville

The moving platform does not move and instead permanently rests in its middle position. No balloons ever spawn.

Summit

The stage still cycles through its entire transformation. However, the destructible ice block is present and simply non-interactive (presumably functioning as a solid object), the icicles never spawn, and the fish does not appear in the water. It is unknown if the falling platform still falls, if the stage still has low gravity while descending, or if the clouds still scroll by, and seeing as this stage had no ledges in Brawl, it is unknown if there is a change there similar to what Port Town Aero Dive received. (TODO: Learn those things)

Shadow Moses Island

According to reports, the walls are unbreakable. I am unsure if the Metal Gear background objects still appear because I have not observed this personally (TODO: observe).

Pirate Ship

The catapult and bomb hazards do not appear, and the King of Red Lions never approaches the ship from the rear. Weather events still occur in the background, but the ship appears to never run aground or fly up into the sky. In the only footage we have, no player touched the bow of the ship to confirm whether it still hits the player or not.

3D Land

The stage still progresses through its movement and script as per normal. The only obvious difference is that the spike crushers late in the stage do not appear at all.

Golden Plain

There are no coins or switches, the platforms do not move, and the stage does not scroll at all from its initial centered position. This causes it to be a stage with walk-offs on both sides, a "hill" in the middle with small walls elevating it over the rest of the ground, and three platforms of asymmetric formation.

Paper Mario

The stage does not transform from its initial "grassland" form, and there is no wind event. This is just according to reports; I haven't observed this stage myself to notice if there is any other nuance.

Gerudo Valley

The bridge is non-interactive and never breaks, and Twinrova never attacks the stage. It is simply a static stage with a few platforms and walk-offs.

Unova Pokemon League

The stairs to the side never spawn in. The random Pokemon that appear in the background appear to be limited to Milotic, Whimsicott, and Shaymin sky form who are the three Pokemon that do not interact with the stage at all.

Mute City SNES

According to reports, this stage features a static lay-out of platforms/cars but does not shift to new forms like it normally does. The track can still hit you. I have not observed this personally to document the exact lay-out that is used (TODO: observe).

Arena Ferox

This stage is permanently in the form with two statues holding up diagonal platforms (three total platforms). The statues cannot be damaged and are non-interactive.

Reset Bomb Forest

Viridi never appears, and this stage never transitions to its second form.

Balloon Fight

The fish never appears in the water which, incidentally, is not swimmable water in this game unlike other stages with water. The platform layout still seems irregular, but it is not clear whether this varies play to play without hazards. In our only video on this stage, neither player attempted to loop from one side to the other as is possible ordinarily.

Living Room

According to reports, this stage is apparently unchanged with hazards off, including the falling blocks damaging the player (TODO: Confirm this).

Find Mii

The hazards never appear, but the cage still exists and is a solid block that cannot be passed through but can be stood on from the top. It is worth noting that the right isolated land mass is further to the right than you probably remember from the 3DS's small screen.

Mushroom Kingdom U

The stage never transforms from its grassy "ground" form. None of the special events (water pillars, icicles, the beanstalk) ever appear either, and of course, Nabbit is not present.

Mario Circuit

There are no cars on the track but otherwise the stage still tours as per usual. This includes the ability for the track to hurt players when the stage is moving.

Skyloft

The stage doesn't move at all; the main platform remains permanently floating far away from the main body of Skyloft giving a constant view of the entire floating island. The formation used is the normal initial form with the two side platforms that diagonally slope away from the stage near each edge and the one flat higher up central platform.

Kalos Pokemon League

The stage does not change forms, move, or transform in any way. It remains in its initial form with the two side platforms above the ledges.

Gamer

The mom never appears nor do any of the other aesthetic events designed to make you worried the mom might appear occur. We have only observed one match on this stage with an asymmetric but mild platform lay-out; it is still unclear whether the random platform generation is changed by hazards off.

Garden of Hope

None of the breakable objects on the stage exist at all; there is no twig, no breakable house, and the central bridge is simply absent. The weight platforms on the sides of the stage still exist but do not move in reaction to players being on them.

Duck Hunt

Neither the dog nor the ducks ever appear.

Wrecking Crew

No bombs or barrels are present which makes the stage fully static. The only match we have seen on this stage has a slight asymmetry but is in a mostly regular form; it is not clear if this stage still has a random lay-out with hazards off.

Pilotwings

The stage permanently keeps the players on the red plane which no longer tilts. The stage still tours around the islands as usual, and the geography of the islands can still hurt players if they contact it.

Wuhu Island

The initial red platform with the slopes near the edges and the one platform in the middle is the only form the stage takes. The stage still tours around the island but simply never settles down toward a landing stop.

Super Mario Maker

We have only observed one game on this stage which had a fairly tame formation with one platform and some ground with a slope. It seems unlikely this is a static form due to the oddness of the shape, but it remains to be seen whether the random formations the stage can choose are impacted by the hazards off setting.

Umbra Clock Tower

The extra platforms never appear causing this to be a fully static stage. It is unclear what range of background events can still occur which for a tiny minority of players may be a huge point of focus.

New Donk City Hall

The stage appears to be identical with hazards on or off. As a new stage, I will explain what it does. The stage begins on the ground in front of the city hall and tours upwards through three different stops before cycling back to the ground; this is fundamentally similar to Prism Tower. However, unlike Prism Tower, the stops going up the tower have some variety; some levels appear to have a few options. The full range of all landing stops is not known at this time.

Dracula's Castle

The platforms do not move. Even though normally the monsters don't seem to interact with the stage anyway, in hazards off they do not spawn at all. The candlesticks that can normally be destroyed for items are not present.

Stages I have not seen played in hazards off in the demo:

Onett

Stages I have not seen or heard of played in hazards off in the full game:

Big Blue
Fourside
Luigi's Mansion
Spear Pillar
75m
Mario Bros.
Hanenbow
Dream Land GB
Magicant
Tomodachi Life
PictoChat 2
The Great Cave Offensive
Flat Zone X
Palutena's Temple
Wii Fit Studio
Gaur Plain
Windy Hill Zone
PAC-LAND
 
Last edited:

Putuk

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Messages
1,286
Location
None of your beeswax!
3DS FC
2723-9688-6533
Switch FC
SW-8387-2163-6416
God I hope they patch Wily Castle to have platforms with hazards off, that's probably the biggest disappointment here.
 

Khao

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Messages
1,448
Location
Lying about my country.
I wouldn't be able to find it again, but I did see gameplay on the Spirit Train with hazards off. It basically worked the same in that the thing would still move forward constantly, and you'd still be shot backwards when standing on the floor off the train, Big Blue-style. But the layout never changes, no floating platforms, no extra wagons, no armored trains crashing into the thing... It literally just stays in the basic moving forward state forever and never changes.
 

SHOTSTUNDAVE

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 12, 2018
Messages
10
I heard that transforming stages like Castle Siege still transform on hazardless. I hope this isn't true.
 

dav3yb

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
431
Of those, Green Greens and Spirit Train especially would be very interesting to know about as it's not entirely obvious how they'd behave, but anyone who has seen or experienced any of these stages without hazards could really help out here!
https://youtu.be/j4hUe-hLgj8

delivered!

At least for Spirit Train... it's mainly just the base train, the covered car, and the open car, and a platform at the top that seems to slowly move across the stage. The track zone is still a hazard though.
 

Ze Diglett

Smash Champion
Writing Team
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
2,808
Location
Rivals 2
NNID
ZeDiglett
Damn shame Hazardless Wily Castle is basically just Omega... I think an exception could reasonably have been made there considering the Yellow Devil was all anyone really wanted gone from that stage - and if they wanted the platforms gone too, well, that's what we have Omega Forms for. I dunno, just seems a bit redundant and kind of like wasted potential for a stage that could be really good with the moving platforms, but without YD.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
Thanks for the reports on Spirit Train! I've added it to the OP with as much detail as I could glean from that video; that stage probably won't quite cut it for a legal stage but it at least went from hilariously unacceptable to borderline?

And yeah, Wily's Castle disappointed me too, but it is what it is, you know?
 

dav3yb

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
431
https://youtu.be/XhrEFHbsWVs?t=5m

Moray Towers here. I don't think there is any difference in this stage, although I haven't seen it with hazards ON, so I can't really say.

Sadly nothing else new info-wise from the entire 30 minute video

https://youtu.be/qpjFpt-7k_Y?t=14m4s

Some treehouse footage of Moray Towers with hazards on starts here. It can be a bit hard to tell since they're using items and its 4man FFA, but it IS a night-time stage this go, so it's possible it'll stay daylight for hazards off. Pure speculation though, as nothing else seems to happen on the stage.
 
Last edited:

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
Man, I missed the obvious Treehouse stuff. That's me being a dummy.

Anyway, yeah, as far as I've ever been able to tell, Moray Towers is completely non-interactive anyway, and the day/night thing is honestly just as likely something like Smashville/T&C have wherein it reacts to the time of day of the console or something (it's not any easier or harder to play on the stage at night versus day). I added Moray Towers to the OP with everything we know now.

I heard that transforming stages like Castle Siege still transform on hazardless. I hope this isn't true.
To reply to this post, I'll just say that the OP sums up the actual facts we have so far. Castle Siege is not in the demo so we cannot judge what it will do one way or another, and the information from other transforming stages is mixed. Prism Tower and Town and City still transform, but Frigate Orpheon and Spirit Train do not. It may be a rule that transforming stages still transform as long as they do so in a non-dangerous way which would suggest Castle Siege likely still transforms? I don't feel we really have enough data to say; it's really too bad Skyloft or Mario Circuit 8 weren't in the demo.
 

Next Door Dog

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 21, 2018
Messages
99
Hazardless Wily Castle would be slightly different from FD/Omega stages in that it still has the walls on the side (though really it's just the omega of Sm4sh Wily Castle). I find it more disappointing how the Omega/BF forms are all going to be the same. I understand why they made the change; it'd possibly be cumbersome trying to remember all the variations during stage selection, and I imagine it'd be easier from a development perspective, too. I just really liked the rooftop stages like Onett and Wrecking Crew, and stages that retained their basic structure (like Pokemon Stadium). It's a minor gripe since we're getting BF and hazardless forms in the process. I just hope the community actual uses omega forms and not stick to ones with the least dynamic backgrounds.

Getting more on topic, I found a match on hazardless Tortimer Island:
https://youtu.be/izr13jfkUTY?t=40s

I never played the 3DS version, so I don't know if this formation is one of the ones that can appear. It looks for the most part symmetrical so it might be a set formation when hazards are off?

As for Castle Siege, I'd speculate it'd be one of the 3:
1. Stage does not transform, stays in first phase (which I think most of us would prefer).
2. Stage is not changed at all compared to the hazards version.
3. Stage still transforms, but statues cannot be attacked and/or the stage doesn't tilt in the third part (which at this point I'm expecting they'll do).

I'm curious about Onett. I'd be happy without the car, and even happier with the drug store platforms being static (or even permanently knocked down from the start).
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
Thanks Next Door Dog, I added what could be gleaned from that video of Tortimer Island. It is true that we really would need two videos of hazardless Tortimer Island to be sure what's going on with it due to its random lay-out nature, but that lay-out was very regular and the type that could be an intended fixed lay-out (which raises questions about whether a stage like Mario Maker will get the same treatment if this is even a thing that happens at all). I noticed across a lot of the videos that m2k in particular did a great job really trying out a lot of different stages and this was just another data point; what a guy.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,707
Location
Santa Ana, CA
Where possible, can we get a video example of these hazards off stages in the OP? Doesn't have to be a match with top players. When it comes to stages like these, a lot of us could use a reminder of what their dimensions and shape look like if we're going to imagine their application in tournament.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
I can try; I didn't really keep track of footage (and I've watched a pretty insane mountain of it), but I saw most of it from just a few sources so it shouldn't be awful to find most of it. I'll get to work on some of that later tonight.
 

TMNTSSB4

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
29,372
Location
John Cena
NNID
No More
3DS FC
3368-4469-9312
Switch FC
SW-6414-0526-7609
Skyworld possibly becoming legal once more...if Reset Bomb Forest and Rainbow Road end up becoming legal than I’m set
 

SJMistery

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 18, 2016
Messages
383
3DS FC
0920-3611-4128
I wish they just cut the transformation stages down into three different stages
NOO PLEASE NO. Prism Tower would become terrible like this. As long as the transformation has an adequate warning (and it has it, the platforms flash in different colors for about two seconds before every change) and is somewhat predictable (not a problem, prism tower has a fixed pattern of transformations) the only responsible for dying during the transformation is the d****** player that still went offstage at the obviously wrong time with the wrong character (or the crafty edgeguarder that somehow managed to take advantage of the layout change.)


Rainbow Road WILL be legal. It has even been discussed to become legal in Doubles 3DS because when you play with 4 players, the Shy Guys never spawn. With Prism Tower, who is essentially Rainbow Road without hazards, still transforming, I think that it's obvious that the Shy Guys and the hitboxes on the road will be removed with the hazard toggle, and MAYBE they will make the different transformations follow a fixed pattern to ensure there is no complains about randomness, tough I am fine with the stage randomly skipping one of them, you can easily tell wich one might be coming next just by looking at the road.

Reset Bomb Forest is similar, up to the point of the destructible terrain and the big fish on the bottom never spawning on a 4 player battle, but the layout of the third transformation can give problems to characters with bad aerial game, so it will be more debatable. I would allow it, but I allow Rainbow Road, Jungle Japes, Brinstar and even Mute City and Unova Pokemon League (The hazards are completely predictable, and not as disruptive as it seems at first glance even with a slow heavy character like Ganondorf) whenever I play on 3DS, so...
 
Last edited:

Enderwoman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 19, 2012
Messages
371
So you just can't turn off the Yellow Devil and keep the platforming gimmicks. Looks like Wily Castle is staying a garbage stage forever.
 

Next Door Dog

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 21, 2018
Messages
99
Skyworld possibly becoming legal once more...if Reset Bomb Forest and Rainbow Road end up becoming legal than I’m set
If I understand correctly, hazardless Skyworld would permanently have the hard platforms, making it arguably less viable than it is with hazards on. The plus sides to picking hazardless would be attacks not colliding (and having hitlag) with the platforms, always having ledges to grab, and the lack of randomness of the drifting platform at the bottom. I'd prefer to play the hazards version, personally. I can at least try to destroy the platforms and not worry about teching the ceilings every five seconds.
 

TMNTSSB4

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
29,372
Location
John Cena
NNID
No More
3DS FC
3368-4469-9312
Switch FC
SW-6414-0526-7609
If I understand correctly, hazardless Skyworld would permanently have the hard platforms, making it arguably less viable than it is with hazards on. The plus sides to picking hazardless would be attacks not colliding (and having hitlag) with the platforms, always having ledges to grab, and the lack of randomness of the drifting platform at the bottom. I'd prefer to play the hazards version, personally. I can at least try to destroy the platforms and not worry about teching the ceilings every five seconds.
I would prefer Skyworld the way it is as well, but if I can get a Kid Icarus stage that’s tourney legal than I’ll accept what’s given (other than Omega of course, since it seems like those have been limited)
 

KingofPhantoms

The Spook Factor
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
32,693
Location
Southern California
3DS FC
1006-1145-8453
I'm not really sure why some of the extra floating/moving platforms have to get turned off when, for the most part, they shouldn't really count as hazards at all. As long as they don't appear at random, or need some kind of additional gimmick to activate, what's the point in removing them?
 

IsmaR

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Messages
19,480
Location
Ooromine IV, the second planet from the sun FS-176
NNID
Super_Sand_Lezbo
3DS FC
3179-6068-0031
Switch FC
SW-7639-0141-7804
I'm not really sure why some of the extra floating/moving platforms have to get turned off when, for the most part, they shouldn't really count as hazards at all. As long as they don't appear at random, or need some kind of additional gimmick to activate, what's the point in removing them?
If I had to hazard a guess, it's to keep stages more consistent since random spawning platforms can interfere with gameplay in major ways (getting stretcher'd off the side of Town & City and Frigate, or just put into a bad position such as the rising platforms on Kalos League/Wily Castle (even if you don't die from the rising platform off the top of the blastzone, it can still put you in the position to get either juggled (or even ladder combo'd at early %) while stages like Saffron City having non-moving high platforms could create similar disadvantageous layouts for characters like Little Mac (it's no Duck Hunt tree, but it definitely makes it awkward to approach/maintain stage control).

Obviously all of this is speculation, there could be any number of reasons (intricate or dumb) that they make hazard toggle affect stages. We won't know for sure until we have a bigger sample of stages available to test out.
 

SJMistery

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 18, 2016
Messages
383
3DS FC
0920-3611-4128
I hope they unban duck hunt. With the new selection process, no matter how "big" the counterpick stage's effect is, you can see it coming before picking the character. If you know DH is coming, and you still pick a character with a known disadvantage on the stage, that's your fault (also, Little Mac got increased jump height so he should be able to reach now)
 

dav3yb

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
431
Scrubbing through more footage, I still haven't seen a single game of hazardless green greens. There is 1 game on it that I found on the invitational, but it appeared to be acting normally, and items were on. Blocks/bombs still falling, wind blowing, and fruit dropping.

It kind of amazes me how people who get a chance to play this game early aren't exploring more of it. Drop the competitive mindset for a few seconds and enjoy everything you can, there's a good chance **** is going to be changing before release anyways.
 

Galgatha

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
269
Location
With my wonderful wife!
NNID
SinChill
Well this is rather good, and disappointing at the same time. I was hoping that what the Hazard Toggle turned off was rather universal if it appeared on the stage, but now this is making it rather difficult to determine which stages will be legal and which wont until we get the game, full stage list, and test them all out with hazards turned off...


That or Nintendo could finally throw us a bone and release the stage section of the Smash Bros website already. Y'know, that wouldn't hurt either!
 

smashingDoug

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 9, 2014
Messages
1,623
Location
Behind you.
NOO PLEASE NO. Prism Tower would become terrible like this. As long as the transformation has an adequate warning (and it has it, the platforms flash in different colors for about two seconds before every change) and is somewhat predictable (not a problem, prism tower has a fixed pattern of transformations) the only responsible for dying during the transformation is the d****** player that still went offstage at the obviously wrong time with the wrong character (or the crafty edgeguarder that somehow managed to take advantage of the layout change.)


Rainbow Road WILL be legal. It has even been discussed to become legal in Doubles 3DS because when you play with 4 players, the Shy Guys never spawn. With Prism Tower, who is essentially Rainbow Road without hazards, still transforming, I think that it's obvious that the Shy Guys and the hitboxes on the road will be removed with the hazard toggle, and MAYBE they will make the different transformations follow a fixed pattern to ensure there is no complains about randomness, tough I am fine with the stage randomly skipping one of them, you can easily tell wich one might be coming next just by looking at the road.

Reset Bomb Forest is similar, up to the point of the destructible terrain and the big fish on the bottom never spawning on a 4 player battle, but the layout of the third transformation can give problems to characters with bad aerial game, so it will be more debatable. I would allow it, but I allow Rainbow Road, Jungle Japes, Brinstar and even Mute City and Unova Pokemon League (The hazards are completely predictable, and not as disruptive as it seems at first glance even with a slow heavy character like Ganondorf) whenever I play on 3DS, so...

Keep stages what life you up on a platform the same example A (:delfino:)
but break up stages what lift you up in the air like example B here (:castlesiege:) cause I want to fight in hell aka the third part of the stage
 
Last edited:

DaDavid

Just Another Sword User
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
2,206
Location
Probably at work.
NNID
DaDavidEffect
Switch FC
SW-7381-1262-2246
Hopefully this is one of those things they're taking feedback on because thing like Great Plateau having a ceiling and Wily's Castle basically becoming a worse FD are straight up mistakes in my opinion.
 

Untouch

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
3,783
As the demo can be played with hazards toggled off, I've decided to go through existing footage and find what smash bros ultimate considers a hazard. I can only compare stages in the demo obviously as there doesn't seem to be a strict definition of what is considered to be a hazard, for example, in some stages platforms are static and some they aren't.

Battlefield
<link>
  • No changes to be found, nothing is considered a hazard.
Suzaku Castle
https://youtu.be/8dkbBYO0Wts
  • No changes to be found, nothing is considered a hazard.

Princess Peach's Castle
https://youtu.be/J2kFk1lJ70U
  • Bullet Bill does not spawn.
  • Buttons do not spawn, and as a result the platforms spawned with the button do not either.
Onett
<missing video link>
  • No footage of this stage with hazards off exists at the moment.
Moray Towers
https://youtu.be/vQlOwtlG6qk?t=26
  • No changes to be found, nothing is considered a hazard.
Great Plateau Tower
https://youtu.be/fe4Nb9nGLJE?t=561
  • Stage is static, the tower cannot be broke and does not take damage at all, as a result the tower does not function as hurtbox like it would with hazards on.
Green Hill Zone
<missing video link>
  • No footage of this stage with hazards off exists at the moment.
Dr. Wily's Castle
https://youtu.be/fe4Nb9nGLJE?t=1180
  • No platforms spawn at all.
  • The Yellow Devil does not spawn either.
  • Functionally a Final Destination clone.
Boxing Ring
https://youtu.be/Bnn_Ki1eQg8
  • Top light rafters cannot be damaged and therefore the lights will not drop.

Green Greens
<missing video link>
  • No footage (as far as I know) of this stage with hazards off exists at the moment. Invitational was not hazards off as it had items on.
Mario Galaxy
<missing video link>
  • No footage of this stage with hazards off exists at the moment.
Skyworld
https://youtu.be/8dkbBYO0Wts?t=1107
  • Platform at the bottle of the stage does not spawn.
  • Stage is static and none of the platforms can be broken, as a result the platforms do not act as hurtboxes.
Kongo Jungle
https://youtu.be/UepuIYnutdY
  • Platforms do not move and bend when players stand on them.
  • Klaptrap does not spawn in the water.
  • Barrel at the bottom of the stage does not spawn.
Coliseum
<missing video link>
  • No footage of this stage with hazards off exists at the moment.
Town and City
https://youtu.be/SVts70HdfZw
  • Platforms are static, until the stage transitions happen in which they'll move off the stage.
Tortimer Island
https://youtu.be/4r5b-Lf1NCo
  • Fruit does not spawn on the trees.
  • Kap'n does not appear.
  • Shark does not appear.
Prism Tower
https://youtu.be/BoAqc2TbwqA?t=170
  • No changes to be found, nothing is considered a hazard.
Spirit Train
https://youtu.be/j4hUe-hLgj8?t=26
  • Stage layout is static, no parts are added or removed from the train.
  • Train does move still though.
Lylat Cruise
<missing video link, information is based on a twitter post I don't have anymore>
  • Stage is static, the ship does not tilt.
New Pork City
<missing video link>
  • No footage of this stage with hazards off exists at the moment.
Saffron City
https://youtu.be/nqQogNUVYLA
  • Pokemon do not appear.
  • Moving platform on the edge of the screen is static and does not move.
Frigate Orpheon
https://youtu.be/vOrS4wb7YFw
  • Stage does not flip.
  • Platform still moves though.

That's what I have right now. If other people would like to help fill this out, keep in mind that the current build has hazards toggled off when the match is 3 stock, 6 minutes, and items off. There isn't a lot of footage of this out there as this needed to be requested during CEO to be enabled. As more footage is released I'll try and fill this out so more.
 

Untouch

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
3,783
Bumping to share potential hazard toggle results based on character trailers. This is rough and filled with assumptions, don't take anything here as 100% proof as I can't verify.

Green Greens
https://youtu.be/dSOqac7YLqY?t=101 and https://youtu.be/dSOqac7YLqY?t=264
  • Blocks do not spawn. (Kirby spawns without blocks present which doesn't happen normally.)

Mario Circuit
https://youtu.be/dSOqac7YLqY?t=138
  • Racers do not seem to spawn. (There are notably no racers on the scoreboard in the back.)
Mushroomy Kingdom
https://youtu.be/dSOqac7YLqY?t=245
  • Stage doesn't move. I don't know how this is going to work at all. This is likely some debug thing as it doesn't resemble FD mode.
New Pork City
https://youtu.be/dSOqac7YLqY?t=298
  • Platform at the bottom doesn't seem to break.
Onett
https://youtu.be/dSOqac7YLqY?t=351
  • Canopy doesn't seem to break. (I don't know how long it takes to break so I may be wrong.)
Castle Siege
https://youtu.be/dSOqac7YLqY?t=399
  • On third part of stage the ground doesn't seem to move, also suggesting that the stage does transition.
75m
https://youtu.be/dSOqac7YLqY?t=498
  • Fire doesn't spawn.
 

dav3yb

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
431
Bumping to share potential hazard toggle results based on character trailers. This is rough and filled with assumptions, don't take anything here as 100% proof as I can't verify.

Green Greens
https://youtu.be/dSOqac7YLqY?t=101 and https://youtu.be/dSOqac7YLqY?t=264
  • Blocks do not spawn. (Kirby spawns without blocks present which doesn't happen normally.)

Mario Circuit
https://youtu.be/dSOqac7YLqY?t=138
  • Racers do not seem to spawn. (There are notably no racers on the scoreboard in the back.)
Mushroomy Kingdom
https://youtu.be/dSOqac7YLqY?t=245
  • Stage doesn't move. I don't know how this is going to work at all. This is likely some debug thing as it doesn't resemble FD mode.
New Pork City
https://youtu.be/dSOqac7YLqY?t=298
  • Platform at the bottom doesn't seem to break.
Onett
https://youtu.be/dSOqac7YLqY?t=351
  • Canopy doesn't seem to break. (I don't know how long it takes to break so I may be wrong.)
Castle Siege
https://youtu.be/dSOqac7YLqY?t=399
  • On third part of stage the ground doesn't seem to move, also suggesting that the stage does transition.
75m
https://youtu.be/dSOqac7YLqY?t=498
  • Fire doesn't spawn.
although many of these are very LIKELY, there simply is not enough time seen in these very short (sometimes under 2 seconds) clips to determine if a full cycle of any hazards can take place. Not to mention that in these character clips, some things could have been taken at a different stage in development, or with special builds that have options we will not get. The only real way to confirm what the toggle does is to watch an actual match on it imho.
 
Last edited:

Dreamking

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
409
Location
The Infinite Beyond
NNID
DreamWanderer92
3DS FC
0817-5074-8674
Switch FC
6827-7951-1977
Wily Castle is a FD clone when hazards are turned off? I would think the platforms would not be classified as hazards. I wish there was a super hazard toggle which we could choose what hazards we wanted. Like Saffron City. Have no Pokemon and moving platforms or just Pokemon and static platforms

Would the hazard toggle be like the random stage selector where we can choose which stages have hazards or is it a universal toggle where I'm going to have to go in and turn it on/off depending on my tastes?
 

RandomAce

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 29, 2017
Messages
2,986
At least people won’t complain about Lylat Cruise’s tilting problem.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
Wily Castle is a FD clone when hazards are turned off? I would think the platforms would not be classified as hazards. I wish there was a super hazard toggle which we could choose what hazards we wanted. Like Saffron City. Have no Pokemon and moving platforms or just Pokemon and static platforms

Would the hazard toggle be like the random stage selector where we can choose which stages have hazards or is it a universal toggle where I'm going to have to go in and turn it on/off depending on my tastes?
Based on the interface from the demo, it seems to be a universal setting. There was a little icon on the stage select screen that looked like it was demonstrating that the hazards off toggle was in use.
 

Raysebi

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 1, 2018
Messages
20
I wonder if we can have an option to decide wich hazards we want to toggle off or on, just like Dreamking says.

At this point i don't understand which the logic of hazards off is. I have a few theories about it, but it's so weird because something just doesn't add up

For example, what is the reason behind the hazards off toggle in town and city? the center plattaform doesn't move, but that is seriously a hazard? According to the last direct, a hazard off toggle is setting to off the enemies or environment changes. I don't see why a plattaform that it has been from the start would be considered as a environment change.

Not just that, also even in hazards off mode town and city does transition, the background changes and while changes the plattaforms dissapear. So this is for sure an environment change. The logic doesn't add up, but we can assume they want to see the pretty background an all, so why the plattaforms in the sides have to go away while the stage is moving?

But well, that's just an example. Is also weird prism tower moves all over the transitions, but i can consider this logic because the stage will be extremely anticlimatic with just the start section with the walkoff. But assuming prism tower does change, then, what about skyloft and delfino plaza? the start section of those are not a walkoff, so, we will have transitions or just the start plattaform? i don't know, but it's possible just the start plattaform assuming the start is not an anticlimatic section like prism tower, and same for halberd i guess.

And let's see now Wily castle, with hazards off is just an FD clone. Maybe because the plattaforms with hazards go in and out in a random fashion so maybe this is considered disruptive for the player, and also because there is not a set layout of moving plattaforms at the start of the match. Like i said, the layout is random, the pattern.

You see, we can assume some logic but still is weird and seems a little bit random. I hope in first place it's because is a demo, they want feedback also, and well, like i said at the beggining, a custom hazards toggle would be the best for us.

Finally, someone knows about giving feedback directly to the developing team? or if one of you can, please, tell them this, a custom hazard toggle or some changes in the hazards off like willy castle or even great plateau tower.

Thanks! i'd give feedback if i can in some events where the demo is playable, but i am not from US, and probably like you are going to notice, my english is not native. Mi native idiom is spanish, and i'm learning english right now.

P.D: I was sure before, but if castle siege does transition i will feel robbed. Like, transition is hell of a environment change; i want a legal stage with fire emblem music so bad.
 
Last edited:

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
We've seen the menu interface enough to see it's a simple on/off toggle that applies to every stage. As per why specific design decisions were made, I don't know; certainly the zealous attack on moving platforms is very strange, and I would almost think it's a result of some significant misunderstanding involving whatever the equivalent word for "hazard" is in Japanese...
 

Raysebi

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 1, 2018
Messages
20
What would be the equivalent?

You mean when they refer to a hazard is different from what we here understand as one? sounds a bit strange.

As for the hazard toggle, maybe in advanced options we can adjust especifically which hazards we want on and off.

I'm somewhat dying here, because there is so much pottential and diversity in this feature. Hope it comes out for the best, i sure we all want that.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
What would be the equivalent?

You mean when they refer to a hazard is different from what we here understand as one? sounds a bit strange.

As for the hazard toggle, maybe in advanced options we can adjust especifically which hazards we want on and off.

I'm somewhat dying here, because there is so much pottential and diversity in this feature. Hope it comes out for the best, i sure we all want that.
I dunno, too many options can be bad as much as they can be good. It turns into a battle for what options you use...

I'm talking about a general language translation issue. If you take a word that refers to a more abstract idea and translate it to another language, the meaning is usually not really the same, and sometimes you have words that just don't translate cleanly at all. It seems reasonably likely to me that both the English and Japanese versions of SSBU use one word each to describe this option, and while we use the word "hazard", the word the Japanese use is probably not an absolute 100% identical word to that English idea.

In fact, as a community we already had no idea what we really considered a "hazard" so we're already using a very vague term as a starting point; some people only refer to things that specifically cause damage to the player, others seem to refer to anything interactive at all, and most seem to have this subjective view that amounts to "if it does something and I don't like it" to decide that, say, Smashville's platform moving is not a hazard but Big Blue's cars moving is a hazard despite the fact that at the end of the day they're both just moving platforms. It's really not a surprise that the dev team's ideas on this point don't perfectly match what any given community member would think since in general the community wouldn't have had a clear idea of precisely how every stage "should" work anyway.
 

Luigifan18

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2015
Messages
3,134
Switch FC
SW-5577-0969-0868
I heard that transforming stages like Castle Siege still transform on hazardless. I hope this isn't true.
I hope that if it isn't true, there's some way to choose which form of the stage you want to play on before you start.
 

Raysebi

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 1, 2018
Messages
20
Don't think we know that, it's like impossible when the demo doesn't even has castle siege to test the hazards-off mechanic.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
Based on footage and reports from The Big House's ultimate demo which had hazards off, I've updated the original post. I've clarified that Lylat Cruise does not actually use its diverse background segments with hazards off (it just keeps going back to the empty space background), and we have a clear report of what Green Greens does with hazards off though sadly it wasn't accompanied by footage.
 
Top Bottom