Meta SSBU Stagelist Discussion

[ATH_]

I feel that as the game has clearly distinguished itself as different from any other game in the series, we should look at rulesets with fresh eyes and be open to testing new ideas. Mass-public opinion matters a great amount, and cannot be ignored, but it's possible that if the procedure that which matches follow becomes simpler, more balanced, and easy to learn/understand, then people will follow it.

This is by no means "proof" but recently I participated in one of Munomario777 's held tournaments which runs some particularly unique rules. Characters are always picked first. There is no bans in games 2+, but rather a system where the loser of the previous game selects 3 "preferred stages" and presents them to the winner. The winner then selects a stage from those 3 that they play on. There are other interesting things, but I'm not going to speak for him so I won't go into too much detail.

My point of mentioning it is, in the 7 rounds I played, everyone I faced was willing to use those rules. I was afraid some steps might be seen as "too much" or that others might choose to ignore it and agree to Battlefield/PS2 over and over, but that didn't happen.

That isn't to say it'll never happen, it's to say that we can test these unique rules and that people, not everyone, will be willing to let us test it to see what works. It's experimentation.

I'd love to see a popular TO like gimr tweet about character first to gauge opinions. That'd be great.

 

[Frihetsanka]

This is by no means "proof" but recently I participated in one of Munomario777 Munomario777 's held tournaments which runs some particularly unique rules. Characters are always picked first. There is no bans in games 2+, but rather a system where the loser of the previous game selects 3 "preferred stages" and presents them to the winner. The winner then selects a stage from those 3 that they play on.

Character first is the standard for game, but a bit unusual for game 2-5. Even so, it's not really that dramatic and I think one could make a pretty good case why it should always be character first.

As for the "banning" thing, pXp1 is basically a variation of bans, but with a changed order. Instead of the winner first banning 2 stages and the loser picking one, the loser suggests 3 stages and the winner bans 2. It's just a variation of regular bans, really, and it makes a lot of sense for larger stage lists (and less sense for smaller stage lists). In the long run, it seems likely that we're going to end up with 6-10 stages (depending on whether the community bans redundant stages, Kalos, Lylat Cruise, and/or Town & City). DLC might change this though.

 

[ATH_]

Character first is the standard for game, but a bit unusual for game 2-5. Even so, it's not really that dramatic and I think one could make a pretty good case why it should always be character first.

As for the "banning" thing, pXp1 is basically a variation of bans, but with a changed order. Instead of the winner first banning 2 stages and the loser picking one, the loser suggests 3 stages and the winner bans 2. It's just a variation of regular bans, really, and it makes a lot of sense for larger stage lists (and less sense for smaller stage lists). In the long run, it seems likely that we're going to end up with 6-10 stages (depending on whether the community bans redundant stages, Kalos, Lylat Cruise, and/or Town & City). DLC might change this though.

Right, I've noted people using the term pxp1 but didn't know it referred to that! Thanks for the info.

Why would "redundant stages" refer to Kalos/Lylat/T&C? Lylat has a very unique platform layout, T&C is dynamic, and Kalos' platforms hang over the edge. I thought redundant referred to stages like Yoshi's Story/Island and Unova. Though, I could see T&C eventually being banned for other reasons.

Either way, I feel that in my own current stagelist, so-called "redundant" stages are different enough that we can balance them and have them work out fine. The only problem I can see is if we have so many that the stage picking procedure becomes trivial. I'll post an updated version of my own stagelist soon, but I wanted to really write out all the details and intricacies of it before posting.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Why would "redundant stages" refer to Kalos/Lylat/T&C?

They don't, that's why I wrote "," and not ":". Yoshi's Story, Yoshi's Island, and Unova Pokémon League are those most likely to be legal, though they may still end up banned in the end fo redundancy.

 

[Munomario777]

ayy

(imo pXp1 has benefits even with a small stage list. large lists definitely get the most mileage tho.)

here's the kinda ruleset i've been running, for reference

Spoiler

 

[Sean²]

I usually like to make mention of some things when it comes to legal stages and the general gripes people have with slopes/slight movement/etc. Here's the legal Melee stage list from Genesis 1 - 6+ years into competitive Melee's maturation.

Neutrals:

• Fountain of Dreams (Singles Only)
• Pokemon Stadium
• Dream Land
• Final Destination
• Battlefield
• Yoshi's Story
• Kongo Jungle 64 - This stage will be used as a neutral ONLY in Singles Bracket. It will be used as a Counter pick during Singles & Doubles Pools.

Counter picks:

• Rainbow Cruise
• Mute City (Singles Only)
• Poke Floats
• Corneria
• Brinstar

I know some of these are stupid. People played in tournament on Poke Floats and Corneria. Dumb, right? You'd probably feel robbed if someone took you there and you lost. But I think it will be beneficial in the long run to start with a wide selection of stages and whittle them down. There are tons more very neutral stages available with the introduction of Hazards Off. Unfortunately, the rate of human error is too high to consistently make multiple rulesets for hazards off and hazards on, especially when you're playing on consoles brought to your event by strangers. It could mean 0.9 and Underdog Boost all over again, and again, and again - or risk having to force TOs to check rules on every single Switch that walks through the door. I think it will be better to leave Hazards OFF as a standard.

So think about it: What stages are viable as a starter or counterpick with Hazards Off?

My opinion:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Wily Castle
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise*
Pokemon Stadium 1
Pokemon Stadium 2
Dreamland
WarioWare
Yoshi's Story
Yoshi's Island Brawl
Fountain of Dreams*
Castle Siege
Rainbow Cruise
Unova Pokemon League
Kalos Pokemon League
Midgar
Frigate Orpheon

*This is assuming the mechanical and graphical issues with these stages get fixed in the future. If not, they should be banned.

I removed any hazardless stage that you can shark through, e.g. Brinstar and anything that has a "neutral" layout but is overcentralized on camping - e.g. Green Greens.

I think the argument against the multiple tri-plats and dual-plats could be used. So in the banning stage of the set, you could just ban tri-plats (BF, DL, YS, FOD, Midgar) or dual-plats (PS1, PS2, Unova) and sweep all of them. But in striking, if you strike to a tri-plat for example, you could have a sub-stage-strike to strike to the one the stage will be played on. They are all odd numbers (not including Lylat since it has a different layout) so you can strike again to a final tri-plat/dual-plat to be played on. It could be confusing at first but if the rules are well-advertised, I don't think it would be that difficult or add time to a set. Possibly better than just choosing a universal dual or tri-plat.

With this, we have several stages of every size, small, medium, large. Pillar stages can help characters with bad recoveries who have wall jumps. You have one of each basic layout that has walls that extend to the blastzone. Wily is to FD, Unova is to PS1/2, Yoshi's is to....all those triplats.

Now for some of the ...sillier? stages on my list. I'm sure Rainbow Cruise sticks out. Mainly due to the wall. I believe the only character with a big advantage against the wall is Ness, but that is situational (Not sure if mewtwo or lucario's neutral B charging will get anyone stuck there, if anyone knows feel free to mention it). It's a small-medium stage that would obviously be a counterpick. The raised area isn't high enough to promote any extreme camping or give the player any extreme advantage, considering there are soft platforms as well. High ground is generally less advantageous in this game anyway, considering most character options in which the opponent is below them are weaker than the other way around. But the stage does not move otherwise. Frigate has the opposite issue, but only for the couple of seconds that the platform lowers itself. Not enough time to wall yourself in. Another obvious counterpick. For both of them, the worst thing that can happen onstage is maybe someone teching off the wall when you hit a smash attack, squandering a possible kill.

And people concerned about wasting bans - a list like this should easily net you at least 4 or 5 bans. Maybe more. If you hate the slope, ban it. If you don't want to deal with PSI Magnet against the wall, ban it. If you don't want to have DK kill you at 40, ban it.

Just my opinion. This is obviously a very liberal stagelist by today's standards. But Melee had some controversial stages legal for years. It was only after very deep evolution of the meta that a lot of these finally got banned. Pokemon Stadium, with transformations and all, is still a legal counterpick in a lot of rulesets. I think with a new game, we are cutting too much out to start with. Maybe due to bias from where Melee ended up after 18 years - with mostly flat and symmetrical stages. We have over 100 stages and tons of them can fit competitive play. There aren't 100 New Pork Cities or 75ms. I see no harm in experimentation, especially considering the game is only a month old.

 

[ATH_]

To organize this a bit.

Strictly Unique Layouts:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Kalos Pokemon League
Town & City
Frigate Orpheon
WarioWare Inc
Mushroom Kingdom U
Rainbow Cruise
Kongo Jungle
Brinstar
Skyloft
Prism Tower
Green Greens
Wuhu Island
Reset Bomb Forest
Dracula's Castle

Less Unique:
Castle Siege
Unova Pokemon League
Yoshi's Story
Yoshi's Island
Halberd
Duck Hunt

Extremely Similar to Existing Stage Terrain/Platforms:
Dreamland
Midgar
Fountain of Dreams
Pictochat 2
Wily Castle
Umbra Clock Tower

I may have missed something, but I believe this is every stage that has been considered or discussed in some form or another.
Having two stages that have identical terrain/platforms is something I think we absolutely shouldn't have. That means it costs more than 1 ban against the stage, but just about everyone knows that at this point.
What's new is that people are talking about both Yoshi stages being banned, and questionably Unova.

One thing important to note here, is that *which* stage remains is subjective. Is Smashville better than Yoshi's Island? Well, that's arguable. Some characters can walljump, and you can be pineappled by smashville. I dunno, I'm not arguing it, but it can be argued. Is Yoshi's Story or Battlefield better? Who knows? Though, I do think Unova's lighting effect hurts its argument.

EDIT: I am not claiming all of these stages are viable or should be considered, this is simply a list of all stages that have been mentioned in this thread from what I can remember.

 

[MarioManTAW]

First of all, on the topic of "out-there" stages, I feel like Tomodachi Life might be worth considering. It has a uniquely vertical layout, but as far as I can tell, nothing seems inherently "jank" about the stage. All it is is 3 soft platforms that each cover the entire width of the stage. The platforms aren't even especially high such that characters can't reach them: the platform heights, while higher than the side platforms of Battlefield, are still within the "normal" range, lower than the platform heights of Yoshi's Story, Unova Pokemon League, and Kalos Pokemon League. I haven't been able to extensively test the stage to see if camping or vertical kills are an issue, but if people are testing stages, I think Tomodachi Life is one that is underrated and possibly worth looking into (unless I'm missing something obvious).

Also, I am of the opinion that stages with similar layouts should not be banned, but rather grouped into categories. For reference, my current stage list that I'm planning on using for a tournament I'm hosting Saturday:

Starters:
Flat stages (Final Destination, any Omega form stage, Wily Castle, PictoChat 2)
Monoplats (Smashville, Yoshi's Island)
Biplats (Pokemon Stadium, Pokemon Stadium 2, Unova Pokemon League)
Triplats (Battlefield, any Battlefield form stage, Dream Land, Yoshi's Story, Midgar)
Kalos Pokemon League

Counterpicks:
Castle Siege
WarioWare
Mushroom Kingdom U
Town & City

Notes:
-Yes, Pokemon Stadium is the default over Pokemon Stadium 2. It seems to be a more "standard" stage and I don't see why so many have PS2 as the default.
-Yes, I have Yoshi's Island, Unova Pokemon League, and Yoshi's Story in groups. For now, I don't know that I see enough reason to separate them, but if I do, all three will be separated at once.
-Some things may be subject to change, perhaps even by the end of the week. Most questionable things right now would be the 3 grouped stages directly above (I think they will stay for now, but may change eventually), PictoChat 2, Kalos as a starter (not sure what would replace it), and Mushroom Kingdom U. Fountain of Dreams would also be another Triplat alternative if it didn't lag.

 

[ATH_]

First of all, on the topic of "out-there" stages, I feel like Tomodachi Life might be worth considering. It has a uniquely vertical layout, but as far as I can tell, nothing seems inherently "jank" about the stage. All it is is 3 soft platforms that each cover the entire width of the stage. The platforms aren't even especially high such that characters can't reach them: the platform heights, while higher than the side platforms of Battlefield, are still within the "normal" range, lower than the platform heights of Yoshi's Story, Unova Pokemon League, and Kalos Pokemon League. I haven't been able to extensively test the stage to see if camping or vertical kills are an issue, but if people are testing stages, I think Tomodachi Life is one that is underrated and possibly worth looking into (unless I'm missing something obvious).

Also, I am of the opinion that stages with similar layouts should not be banned, but rather grouped into categories. For reference, my current stage list that I'm planning on using for a tournament I'm hosting Saturday:

Starters:
Flat stages (Final Destination, any Omega form stage, Wily Castle, PictoChat 2)
Monoplats (Smashville, Yoshi's Island)
Biplats (Pokemon Stadium, Pokemon Stadium 2, Unova Pokemon League)
Triplats (Battlefield, any Battlefield form stage, Dream Land, Yoshi's Story, Midgar)
Kalos Pokemon League

Counterpicks:
Castle Siege
WarioWare
Mushroom Kingdom U
Town & City

Notes:
-Yes, Pokemon Stadium is the default over Pokemon Stadium 2. It seems to be a more "standard" stage and I don't see why so many have PS2 as the default.
-Yes, I have Yoshi's Island, Unova Pokemon League, and Yoshi's Story in groups. For now, I don't know that I see enough reason to separate them, but if I do, all three will be separated at once.
-Some things may be subject to change, perhaps even by the end of the week. Most questionable things right now would be the 3 grouped stages directly above (I think they will stay for now, but may change eventually), PictoChat 2, Kalos as a starter (not sure what would replace it), and Mushroom Kingdom U. Fountain of Dreams would also be another Triplat alternative if it didn't lag.

Tomodachi is very jank for vertical kills and that when you use an aerial you always end up landing on a platform, you can't fall through it unless its auto-cancels on the platform (or so I've been told). It would probably be irritating constantly getting stuck on platforms and having less options to get off of them at that. To reach the bottom terrain you'd have to fastfall all the way down without inputting an aerial. So it makes it way too easy to get juggled.

People use PS2 > PS1 because PS1 has a glitch that is apparently very reproduceable where one player can become stuck inside the stage.

Lylat makes the best 5th starter imo. Over time Frihetsanka has slowly convinced me to test Lylat more and the stage is great, the ledges seem way better than they were in Smash 4 and Brawl. Lots of characters actually hit ledge instead of getting stuck under the wing like they would in Smash 4. Kalos is really really big and basically acts as a variant of FD in terms of matchups, which imo unbalances the starter lineup.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Lylat makes the best 5th starter imo. Over time Frihetsanka has slowly convinced me to test Lylat more and the stage is great, the ledges seem way better than they were in Smash 4 and Brawl. Lots of characters actually hit ledge instead of getting stuck under the wing like they would in Smash 4. Kalos is really really big and basically acts as a variant of FD in terms of matchups, which imo unbalances the starter lineup.

This is because one of the patches in Smash 4 changed the collision detection to make the underside properly sloped instead of a Brawl FD-style hard ceiling. That change carried over to Ultimate.

 

[ATH_]

This is because one of the patches in Smash 4 changed the collision detection to make the underside properly sloped instead of a Brawl FD-style hard ceiling. That change carried over to Ultimate.

I played Smash 4 for the first two years of its life and honestly I have no memory of this! Nice to know that.

Do we know if the ledges are still only a 5th of the size of Battlefield's ledges? I've tried to find that information in various places but can't seem to find anything that specific.

 

[MarioManTAW]

I played Smash 4 for the first two years of its life and honestly I have no memory of this! Nice to know that.

Do we know if the ledges are still only a 5th of the size of Battlefield's ledges? I've tried to find that information in various places but can't seem to find anything that specific.

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but I think https://rubendal.github.io/ssbu/#/ would be a good place to look.

Thanks for your earlier advice btw. I looked up the Pokemon Stadium glitch, and unless I'm missing something, it is exclusive to hazards on, and my ruleset (as with most rulesets) is purely hazards off, so that shouldn't be an issue.
Regarding Lylat, it might be fine, but I have seen glitches on the stage. Plus, since most of my tournament scene is Smash 4 players, I think the majority would object to Lylat just from past experience even if it is a decent stage. (Thus why I don't have it legal at all. If I were to replace Kalos as a starter, I would almost certainly substitute another stage on my list as opposed to a stage not on my list, like Lylat.)

 

[SwagGuy99]

I'm going to propose my idea that doubles should have different list of stages than singles. There are a lot of stages that may seem too large in singles but seem to be more appropriate in doubles. Small stages like Wario Ware and Castle Siege (hazardless) will also have to go due to their small size. I also see potential for a more varied list in doubles due to the need for larger stages over smaller ones.

Here is my list for possible doubles stages (assumes hazards are on unless I say otherwise)

Stages that should definitely be considered doubles:

• Battlefield/Midgar/Any Battlefield form stage
• Dream Land 64
• Final Destination/Any Omega form stage
• Mushroom Kingdom U (Hazardless)
• Kongo Jungle (Hazardless)
• Yoshi's Island Brawl/Smashville (Hazardless)
• Smashville
• Town and City
• Town and City (Hazardless)
• Pokemon Stadium 1/2 (Hazardless)
• Kalos Pokemon League (Hazardless)
• Unova Pokemon League (Hazardless)
• Frigate Orpheon (Hazardless)

Stages that I think could show up in doubles and should be tested during these first few months:

• Prism Towers
• Arena Ferox
• Castle Siege
• Skyloft (Hazardless)
• Pokemon Stadium 1
• Lylat Cruise (Hazardless)
• Wuhu Island (Hazardless)
• Yoshi's Story (Hazardless)
• Helberd (Hazardless)

More unique stages that I wouldn't mind to see in doubles but might not be legal for understandable reasons:

• Kongo Falls (Hazardless)
• Norfair
• Fountain of Dreams (Hazardless)
• Fountain of Dreams
• Delphino Plaza
• Reset Bomb Forest (Hazardless)
• Green Greens (Hazardless)
• Yoshi's Story
• Pilotwings (Hazardless)
• Edit: Luigi's Mansion (Hazardless)

 

[Frihetsanka]

I looked up the Pokemon Stadium glitch, and unless I'm missing something, it is exclusive to hazards on, and my ruleset (as with most rulesets) is purely hazards off, so that shouldn't be an issue.

I think I've seen clips of it happening on what seemed to be hazards off as well.

Regarding Lylat, it might be fine, but I have seen glitches on the stage.

Did you record them? I haven't seen any clipping on Lylat since pre-release, and even if there are it's fairly likely it's a global issue.

Plus, since most of my tournament scene is Smash 4 players, I think the majority would object to Lylat just from past experience even if it is a decent stage.

This is a bad reason to ban a stage and you know that it is. Lylat brings more to the stage list than Kalos Pokémon League, Town & City, Unova Pokémon League, Yoshi's Island, and Yoshi's Story. If any of those stages is on the list, then Lylat should be as well. If they're not, well... Then I wonder what the 5th starter is? So yeah, keep Lylat.

 

[ATH_]

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but I think https://rubendal.github.io/ssbu/#/ would be a good place to look.

Thanks for your earlier advice btw. I looked up the Pokemon Stadium glitch, and unless I'm missing something, it is exclusive to hazards on, and my ruleset (as with most rulesets) is purely hazards off, so that shouldn't be an issue.
Regarding Lylat, it might be fine, but I have seen glitches on the stage. Plus, since most of my tournament scene is Smash 4 players, I think the majority would object to Lylat just from past experience even if it is a decent stage. (Thus why I don't have it legal at all. If I were to replace Kalos as a starter, I would almost certainly substitute another stage on my list as opposed to a stage not on my list, like Lylat.)

This glitch is what I was referring to before, which can happen when hazards are turned off. I don't know how reproduceable it is though.

Yeah, lots of Smash 4 players prefer Lylat gone, and I get that. The thing is, they should really give Hazards Off Lylat a shot, because otherwise it leaves a 5th starter slot open that can only be filled by a stage that emulates an existing starter (at least, sort of). Some people put Castle Siege as the 5th starter, and while I think that's better than Kalos (because it's different enough, not that the stage is more balanced), lots of players would outrage to that too. I initially had Yoshi's Story as my 5th starter, and that seems to work nicely. In the end, I don't think anything can bring as much variance as Lylat though, and the game is new, we shouldn't bring past impressions into the new game.

But you know your players better than I do! So you do you as a TO.

 

[Munomario777]

I played Smash 4 for the first two years of its life and honestly I have no memory of this! Nice to know that.

Do we know if the ledges are still only a 5th of the size of Battlefield's ledges? I've tried to find that information in various places but can't seem to find anything that specific.

lylat's shape is the same as in post-patch smash 4

 

[Akiak]

The new G6 list is indeed pretty balanced although I do think Warioware is an essential stage for a variety of reasons.

The problem however is that it might be too polarising for certain characters who kill easily off the sides (and prefer less space to move around). This could include the likes of MK, ROB, Ness, Incineroar, Ganon, Ridley, heavies in general, etc.

Turk Injaydii unfortunately the issue with WW & picking stage-before-char is that, if the stage truly is that good for the aforementioned characters, then the correct course of action would be to always ban WW, since you have no information on who your opponent might pick. Obviously it's not that simple, but this mostly holds true, and means that as a result WW will be seen extremely rarely.

Now it might be that we're overestimating this and that WW favours characters pretty similarly to how other legal stages favour different characters, but personally I'm a bit doubtful of that.[...]

I wanted to add that I don't think WW is worse than CS in this regard. There's a good chance CS has some dumb abuseable strats with certain characters (there's already some stuff with Palu) but it might take a bit of time before we see them actually affecting tournament matches. WW is just a more straight-forward stage so it's more obvious how you would "abuse" it.

This is all to say that if CS has issues (which many people believe) then it probably warrants char-first just as much as WW. This'll become more evident over time.

In any case I'm glad CS is being tested as it's again not an obviously bad stage and it's hard to make an argument against it without some hard proof.

 

[ATH_]

This is the tweet I saw a while back about Lylat's ledges. Specifically the part that says Lylat has a ledge "size" of 2.038 units while Battlefield's ledges are 5 units. I say "size" because I don't know exactly what this refers to. It's clear this is an anti-lylat tweet, so I have no idea how reliable this information even is.

Also, this is referring to Smash 4 Lylat, so the tilting is gone with hazards off but I am unsure if the small ledge persists.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Here's the ruleset that is used in my local scene:

All hazards set to off.

• Battlefield *
• Smashville
• Kalos Pokemon League
• Final Destination *
• Pokemon Stadium
• Yoshi’s Story
• Castle Siege
• Yoshi’s Island
• Lylat Cruise

Striking as follows: P1-P2-P2-P1-P1-P2-P2-P1

* Other stages in Battlefield and Omega version respectively may be used instead

It's a 9 starter stage list. Notice that T&C is missing, which is usually in most lists.

 

[Turk Injaydii]

ayy

(imo pXp1 has benefits even with a small stage list. large lists definitely get the most mileage tho.)

here's the kinda ruleset i've been running, for reference

Spoiler

View attachment 187142

I love this ruleset and wish mainstream TOs were this open minded. I know the majority of people I play with would prefer something like this to the overly conservative rules most TOs are crapping out. Good stuff, man. Hope you rub off on other TOs.

 

[ATH_]

So Glitch 6 is running a very interesting stagelist.

Starters:
Battlefield
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Kalos League
Final Destination

Counterpick (2 bans, you pick two stages to go to):
Skyloft
Town & City
Wario Ware
Yoshi's Island
Rainbow Cruise
Frigate Orpheon
Lylat Cruise

an odd number of counterpicks, Kalos as a starter, 2 bans AND pxp1 simultaneously. skyloft/rainbow cruise are interesting choice at that.
i hope we get some games on stream of these counterpicks.
it's live right now and in top 8, so i'm watching it.

Apologies, I misread their ruleset. I actually can't seem to find their official ruleset but these stages were specifically for Squad Strike, and not singles.
The "2 bans, you pick two stages to go to" refers to stage morph, and not pxp1.
#LegalFrigate

 

[DavemanCozy]

Glitch 6 was using PS2 I noted over PS1. What are the benefits? I remember seeing an infographic with the blastzone descriptions, and noticed that PS1 has "better ones" (an opinion of course) while PS2s are closer to the sides. PS2 stage is also fairly larger than PS1.

I also noticed that the platforms on the sides are ever so slightly higher than the PS1 platforms. Also noticed that the camera on the back is never on, while it is in PS1, which some have also expressed that it is distracting (again, another opinion).

At this point though, it seems like either tourneys will use PS1 or PS2, but never both at the same time since they are too similar to each other.

Thoughts?

 

[Tesh]

PS2 has a closer bottom blast zone, wider stage area, higher platforms (it can be a big deal for some characters reaching with their full hop vs needing to double jump), and a less sloped underside (so its easier to pineapple yourself, but there is an available wall for clings/jumps).

Doesn't seem to be much favoring one or the other competitively except that bug on Ps1 where people get pushed under the floor.

 

[VodkaHaze]

Here's the ruleset that is used in my local scene:

All hazards set to off.

• Battlefield *
• Smashville
• Kalos Pokemon League
• Final Destination *
• Pokemon Stadium
• Yoshi’s Story
• Castle Siege
• Yoshi’s Island
• Lylat Cruise

Striking as follows: P1-P2-P2-P1-P1-P2-P2-P1

* Other stages in Battlefield and Omega version respectively may be used instead

It's a 9 starter stage list. Notice that T&C is missing, which is usually in most lists.

I agree that we should allow Battlefield and FD variations of other stages. Though there are some I think should not be allowed:

• Any stage that lacks a Z-axis should be banned due to them changing hitboxes.
• Some stages should be banned due to copyrighted music, though this only applies if you have music on and are streaming it.
• If the background or stage effects are too distracting, it should be banned (i.e. Umbra Clock Tower).

 

[DieMyDarling]

I have a tangentially related question: I just last week attended my first ever tournament for any smash game (it was an ultimate tournament). The stage selection process was quite cumbersome. A large reason for this is that I didn’t even understand why I should care what stage I went to. I have since done some searching on the internet and I cannot find any article or discussion about strategic considerations for why one stage would be preferred over another based on character (or any other reason, honestly). Is there a link someone could drop that could point me to a resource on the subject? Thanks and sorry if this is a slight derail.

 

[MarioManTAW]

I have a tangentially related question: I just last week attended my first ever tournament for any smash game (it was an ultimate tournament). The stage selection process was quite cumbersome. A large reason for this is that I didn’t even understand why I should care what stage I went to. I have since done some searching on the internet and I cannot find any article or discussion about strategic considerations for why one stage would be preferred over another based on character (or any other reason, honestly). Is there a link someone could drop that could point me to a resource on the subject? Thanks and sorry if this is a slight derail.

Differences between legal stages generally fall into 3 categories: platform layout, stage size, and blastzones.

Platform layout is probably the most obvious difference between stages. Depending on the characters and the stage, platforms may allow for combo extensions, recovery/landing mixups, or earlier kills.

Stage size is, in my opinion, the least significant of the three, but can make a big difference. In general, faster or camping-oriented characters prefer bigger stages where there is a lot of room to run away and camp. Slower, less mobile characters conversely prefer smaller stages where they do not need to chase opponents as far.

Blastzones can make a significant difference as they can affect how early different moves kill. A closer blastzone allows for earlier kills, while a farther blastzone allows for more survivability. This can affect both kills off the top and kills off the sides, depending on the stage.

 

[ATH_]

To add to that: slopes, moving terrain, moving platforms, transformations, and semi-soft terrain also differentiate stage character advantages from each other!

Slopes bring some interesting properties with spikes and can hurt projectile characters.

Moving terrain can also disrupt projectile characters, as well as make certain types of recoveries more difficult or easier (samus zair versus bowser jr up special)

Moving platforms makes the same advantages of platforms based on timing. This might telegraph an opponent's approach, or it can server as part of a mindgame, generally making things very interesting (which imo is a big reason people have always loved smashville w/hazards). It can also aid ledge options if the platforms move near it.

Transformations are like moving platforms, make stages shift around advantages and disadvantages based on the current transformation. Best example is Pokemon Stadium 1 in melee.

Semi-soft terrain has been discussed a lot in this thread, and supports characters with lots of jumps, large hit boxes, and adds to recovery options in a lot of cases. It promotes sharking at times, sure, but very few characters are even capable of doing it effectively (mostly just meta knight tbh).

 

[Tesh]

Has anyone provided some tangible proof that sharking is a problem in Ultimate? It was basically a spinoff of infinite ledge camping in Brawl, but ledge camping is risky now. Only a handful of character would even be able to make an attempt I think. Bayonetta, Metaknight, ROB, Pits, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Yoshi, Peaches, DDD, Sonic and maybe pokemon trainer if they repeatedly swap down there.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I agree that we should allow Battlefield and FD variations of other stages. Though there are some I think should not be allowed:

• Any stage that lacks a Z-axis should be banned due to them changing hitboxes.
• Some stages should be banned due to copyrighted music, though this only applies if you have music on and are streaming it.
• If the background or stage effects are too distracting, it should be banned (i.e. Umbra Clock Tower).

Oh yeah... true that.

I asked the TOs and they've said that any form is fine but so long as:
1. both players agree (even flat ones)
2. it's not done in a stream setup (due to the music copyright you mentioned) unless TOs say it's ok

So they're pretty much leaving it to players discretions for any sets that are not on stream, which I'm ok with. If say I'm not ok with Umbra FD, I can ask for another FD form.

 

[VGFan95]

< Deleted>

 

[Vapor_exe]

If I were a TO, I would try out Brinstar

 

[DavemanCozy]

How do we know which stages have a copyright issue?
My guess would be Shadow Moses Island, Green and Windy Hill Zone, PAC-Land, and Midgar.
This is the stage-list I've been using. There are two Capcom stages on it. Hopefully those are not a problem?
I don't like the idea of having stages that are acceptable off stream but not on stream. It seems sloppy.

Let me clarify for the ruleset I posted: only the Battlefield and FD forms of those stages are acceptable off-stream, and again both players MUST agree. Not their normal versions. i.e. no hazardless Midgar. That would be sloppy indeed if that was the case.

Alternate forms of BF and FD are okay because, unlike Smash4 omega forms, there's no differences in blastzones, bottom layout, or camera angles. All BF and FD forms are consistent across the board, the only difference I believe is grass in certain forms, the 2D stages flattening some hitboxes and thus changing them, and aesthetics.

As for a music list, I don't believe there's a definitive one. The general rule of thumb is that any stages with remixes are safe for stream; the composition is owned by the creator but the the arrangement is partially owned by Nintendo. To be as safe as possible I generally just use the music options to turn up the remixes and turn down any of the original 3rd party music. Midgar is not safe for this reason, because the stage only has two songs with rights fully owned by Square Enix.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

How do we know which stages have a copyright issue?
My guess would be Shadow Moses Island, Green and Windy Hill Zone, PAC-Land, and Midgar.
This is the stage-list I've been using. There are two Capcom stages on it. Hopefully those are not a problem?
I don't like the idea of having stages that are acceptable off stream but not on stream. It seems sloppy.

Earthbound stages are out for music copyright reasons. Not sure on the how/why, but they're no go.

 

[VGFan95]

< Deleted>

 

[ATH_]

Updated stagelist from before, with further reasoning (mostly rambling) under the spoiler.
Once i have a full ruleset set up i'm going to post it in the other thread, but for now i'm focusing on stage selection.

STAGELIST
Starters:

• Battlefield
• Smashville
• Kalos Pokemon League
• Pokemon Stadium 2 (1 if it gets patched)
• Lylat Cruise

Counterpicks:

• Final Destination
• Yoshi’s Island (Brawl)
• Yoshi’s Story
• Frigate Orpheon
• WarioWare Inc.
• Castle Siege
• Town & City
• Unova Pokemon League

Stages to Consider:

• Mushroom Kingdom U
• Skyloft / Brinstar / Wuhu Island / Halberd (One Slot)

I might borrow the idea from VGFan95 to have a list of allowed Battlefield/Omega forms, because I feel like that's a good idea, but for now i have it written that players can simply both agree to another form if they want to play on it.

#LegalFrigate

Spoiler: Stage Reasoning and thoughts on other stages

Second warning, this section is going to ramble and talk about A Lot like just about every thought I've had on each stage individually as well as document some of my more specific findings. There's a lot here that goes as subjective and a lot of information that is purely factual but not entirely relevant to whether or not a stage should be allowed. These are my findings and thoughts, not explicitly debates.

Viable Starters:

• Battlefield: Standardly good stage. Pokemon Stadium 1 may be an overall more balanced stage, but Battlefield feels really good in this game. Average 160 units wide (rounded up) for comparison with other stages. This is considered a Average-size stage, while the highest platform is about 48 units off the terrain. Not too tall, but this is what makes the argument that Stadium 1 is likely more balanced. Both are viable Starters though.
• Smashville: Great stage. Platform is 28 units off the ground which is slightly higher than Battlefield's low platforms (24 units). In my opinion that makes it even more unique. Characters can be pineappled and the stage is about 140 units wide, which I consider to be Below-Average-size for a stage, but that doesn't hurt it too much. Blast zones are nearly identical to Battlefield, only off by a couple units on each side. A smaller stage with the same blast zones provides a slight advantage towards light characters with good recoveries, but some may argue that Smashville is where the bar is set for balance, and not Battlefield.
• Kalos Pokemon League: This is controversial, but I personally think that Kalos is more balanced than Final Destination. Kalos and FD are the exact same width (160 units wide) which match Battlefield. The differences are that Kalos is walled to the blast zone and has two ledge platforms. These platforms do not help approaching but rather aid in recovery. As does the walled sides, allowing characters who can wall jump to do so and recover easier. Giving more recovery options against the projectile characters that thrive on FD means more mixups = more skill intensive gameplay. While FD promotes camping, Kalos does similar, but it simply gives more options against characters who aren't projectile characters. Looking at the cast, the only projectile characters (characters whose playstyles commonly revolve around their projectiles) who can't walljump are: Yoshi, Ness, Peach/Daisy, Pit/Dark Pit, Snake, Ivysaur, Lucas, King Dedede, ROB, Pacman, Robin, Bowser Jr., Simon/Richter, King K. Rool, Isabelle, and Mii Swordfighter. This is about half of the projectile characters, which is to be expected. The bolded characters are ones who are commonly seen in competitive play. The way that the stage helps recoveries and brings projectile characters to have to play more skillfully on the ledge to me means that Kalos is a more balanced FD. On top of all of that, the bottom blast zone of Kalos is 20 units closer, which means characters who usually live forever on FD will die sooner on Kalos if sent into a spike. While yes, the top blast zone is 12 units taller, I believe that the bottom blast zone is slightly more valuable in terms of a stage like this that usually runs rampant with characters who have insane recoveries.
• Pokemon Stadium 2: In my opinion, Pokemon Stadium 1 is much better than 2, but currently there is a bug on PS1 that makes PS2 slightly more viable. The stage is massive, at about 186 units wide, which I consider Large-size for a stage. The platforms are nicely placed, allowing for rushdown, as well as bringing more options when landing. No BF-like top platform means no ridiculously early kills, but characters can be pineappled under the stage so I'd say that's an even trade-off. Blast zones are slightly further out than average (though the bottom blast zone is a bit closer), but not too far to call it hugely different. It does mean that characters smash'd at the ledge should die at about the same percents that they do on Battlefield (because the stage is about 13 units further from origin and the horizontal blast zones are about 10 units further from origin than usual so it cancels out).
• Lylat Cruise: This stage is exactly Average with 160 units width. The platform layout is extremely unique, and despite the slopes, I have yet to come across or see anything bad come from them. Lylat makes the perfect 5th starter because any other stage as a starter would be too intensely similar to an existing starter for the list to be balanced, or it would have a hazard (Town & City, Frigate Orpheon) and not be fit as a starter. The ledges feel great, the gameplay is unique, and it balances out the list in having 3 Average-size stages, 1 Large stage, and 1 Below-Average size stage. The slops hurt projectiles as well, which means it essentially becomes the polar opposite of Kalos in terms of matchups. Expect to see Lylat striked all the time, but it serves a great purpose in balance and variety.

Viable Counterpicks:

• Final Destination: Most of what I can say about FD is already said with Kalos. It's a less-balanced Kalos and heavily aids projectile characters and extensive combos. It's a great stage, just not a starter. The visuals on this stage can be seen as extremely distracting, so I'm currently allowing a rule where if one player doesn't want to play the original then both players default to using Omega Palutena's Temple, or they may agree to a different Omega. In terms of size-balance, it's what you'd expect, average all around. Blast zones and width are Battlefield, Or maybe Battlefield's width/blast zones are FD?
• Yoshi’s Island (Brawl): Below-Average-size stage (140 units wide). Slopes have caused some interesting bounces in my experience, mostly using Ganon DAir, where characters are sent at odd angles if spiked near the ledge. Overall, the layout is simple, different enough from Smashville (walled, slopes, different blast zones) that this stage earns its slot.
• Yoshi’s Story: Nothing I can really say about this stage that wasn't said about YI. Upper blast zone is 192 on BF, 180 on Story. Side blast zone is 240 on BF, 227 on Story. Bottom blast zone is 140 on BF, 117 on Story. So the blast zones are clearly different, tighter than Battlefield providing a nice smaller variant. The width is about the same as Smashville (around 140 units), making it a below-Average-size stage. This is a little over 20 units less wide than Battlefield. The only real reason this is a counterpick is that Battlefield already exists, and each platform on Story is about 3 units higher than on Battlefield. With the lower ceiling being a net difference of 15 units shorter (off the top platform) that means this is sorta a more exploitable Battlefield. Not to mention the slopes are there, the left and right platforms are against the ledge, and the stage is walled. Excellent stage.
• Frigate Orpheon: Data on this stage is really complicated, but from what I can extrapolate, when the moving terrain is aligned the stage is roughly the size of Smashville (140 units wide, it takes the exact same distance for Little Mac to foxtrot as Smashville). Everything in the data is offset by -114 on the Y-axis, so we can look at the blast zones Top-Right-Bottom as 184/245/140. Pretty standard blast zones despite people's complaints of the storing methods causing them to be unintuitive or weird. Using this same logic, the platform is about 29 units off the terrain, and is slightly leaning over the ledge for mixups. Now for the elephant in the room: the moving terrain. Since this seems to be the only thing about this stage out of the ordinary, I'm going to put a lot of emphasis on it. While the terrain is down, the only ledge is on the right side of the platform. While the terrain is up, there is no left ledge, but there is a ledge that appears on the corner of the non-moving terrain. The terrain rises to meet the height of the platform (29 units, tested using pause camera's crosshair display). The platform is semi-soft terrain, meaning it can be jumped through from beneath, but cannot be dropped through from above. The entire cycle takes about 40 seconds total for the platform to go down, rest, go up, be level, go up, rest, and go back to be level with the rest of the stage. When the terrain is down, it can help recoveries, and while it's up it can hurt recoveries. In my opinion, that's a dynamic only Smashville has had before with its moving platform and I think that's an interesting dynamic at that. The terrain helps in comboing like a platform does, or it can make it more difficult to kill off the right blast zone when it's down. Each position it can be in has upsides and downsides. Some may say the wall is an issue, but the fact that the platform moves frequently spells out to me that no sort of infinite combo (those of which we have no discovered, and might not even exist) can be "infinite" because the stage moves and prevents it from being infinite. For reference, the terrain begins going down 8 seconds after a game has started, and reaches the bottom after 4 seconds. It sits there for 8 seconds, then takes 4 seconds to move back up to be level with the stage. This gives you 8 seconds to line up a combo, execute it, then see how much damage you rack up. Not only do I doubt we'll ever see such a combo go off in high-level play because of how predictable the terrain is, but I doubt it'll happen in tournament at all. A low-level player may learn an infinite combo in an attempt to get better, but by definition will not be able to line up said infinite in time with the stage. A better player may be able to line it up, but they would have to be going against someone who is significantly worse than them to pull it off, and that's not really a problem? If someone who is already significantly better than their opponent wins a game, what does it matter if they used or didn't use a wall-combo like that? Either way, that's seriously the only way it can be seen to happen under tournament-pressure in my opinion, but only time will tell. Yes, I admit that this approach is subjective and situational, but I debate for Frigate's inclusion because the wall has not been tested in tournament. The moving terrain has not been definitively suggested to be an issue, when it gives such an interesting upside-downside dynamic to the stage. It acts like a transformation, and personally I feel that if the stage was simply 3 transformations instantly into what it was with different aesthetics, people would be more fair to it. But because it presents itself as a single form stage, people are going to be more harsh about it. That doesn't apply to everyone, but those are my thoughts. Personally, Frigate is an excellent stage that deserves more attention and testing. It is not another "objectively bad" stage that's being debated for the sake of debating. Who knows, I could be wrong, but I'd love to see evidence against it for once instead of the recurring notions and assumptions that the wall is bad or has infinite combos. #LegalFrigate
• WarioWare Inc.: Another controversial stage, WarioWare is smalllll, that's for sure. It's a tiny stage, under the category of Small for me at 114 units wide. That's 46 units shorter than an Average size stage (such as Battlefield). As well, the blast zones are closer to a box than a wide rectangle. The top blast zone is actually higher up than Battlefield, at 210 (compared to 180) while the sides are at 180 (compared to 240). 60 whole units tighter on each end, that's longer than the length of half the stage's terrain itself. However, something that must be considered is relative distance to the blast zone. If we look at the ledge of WarioWare, the ledge is 57 units away from the origin. The side blast zone is 180 units away from the origin, which means that overall the distance from ledge to blast zone is 123 units. Comparing the two, Battlefield's ledge is 80 away from origin, and the blast zone is 240 away from origin, giving us a distance of 160 units. This means relatively, WarioWare is just about exactly 75% the size of Battlefield (123/160). The terrain itself being small doesn't really hurt it, it's more about the relative distance to the blast zone being smaller. This means that characters fighting on WarioWare will die 25% faster than on an Average sized stage. Is 25% faster such a big deal though? I personally believe the answer is no, because we allow stages such as Pokemon Stadium 2 to run about just fine. The ledge-to-blastzone difference on Pokemon Stadium 2 is about 156 units, just about equal to Battlefield, however if we take into account survivability due to the stage's length, we can see a pattern. From the center of PS2, a starter, characters launched will have 14 more length of stage to grab onto, and 10 more units of leeway on the side blast zones. This means that roughly, characters will live ~12% (semi-complicated math) longer if they aren't killed on Pokemon Stadium 2 compared to Battlefield because of how long the stage is. Applying the same math to WW, we see that characters who aren't killed on the sides last only about 5% less time than on Battlefield. Again, both of these figures are from the center of the stage. To sum it up, from the ledge of WW you die 25% faster than on Battlefield, but from the center you die only 5% faster. On PS2's ledge you die about equal to Battlefield, but from the center you live about 12% longer. Yes, PS2 is a more balanced stage here, but that's not the point. WarioWare is a counterpick because it's differences provide advantages to characters who can kill off the sides easier. It gives those characters a favorable matchup against characters who can't as easily, and the math spells out that it's not completely absurd. WarioWare is a great stage, and it's side blast zones don't take away from how good it is, they add to its uniqueness.
• Castle Siege: Honestly I've never understood the hate for this stage. The high ground is 9 units higher, the platform being 8 units higher. The slant gives the stage more intrigue and makes it actually fairly unique and gives us a small biplat for once. The stage is 131 units long, which is ever so slightly shorter than Smashville, but still giving it the title Small. The blast zones provide no problems, with the sides at 210 and the ceiling at 180, making it in general feel like a bigger Wario Ware. The walled sides are a little bit weird, but in my opinion the sides, platforms, and slant make it unique rather than being "better WarioWare". The slant is something a lot of people don't like because it can make certain smash attacks miss but, that's honestly part of what I think makes this stage extra neat! It's more difficult to hold center-stage here, and means that characters with quick and powerful aerials will dominate the center better than someone with solid tilts or smashes. Love this stage.
• Town & City: There's not much to say about this stage that hasn't been said before, but to sum it up: This stage is unique and provides an interesting reverse Battlefield platform layout that switches to a Kalos-esque layout on a stage slightly bigger than Battlefield. The blast zones are slightly different, but not different enough to really make a difference (except that the ceiling is about 15 units taller than usual). The main thing to note is that the platforms can kill you. If you are buried, shield-broken, or held in a grab, you can be killed when the platforms shift between forms. This isn't a common occurrence, but it's exploitable enough that it should be mentioned. I believe that that makes this stage a counterpick, but doesn't mean it should be banned by any means.
• Unova Pokemon League: This stage is seriously just a smaller PS2, and would absolutely replace it as a Starter in a heartbeat if it weren't for the visual effects. Some will see the visuals as distracting (myself included at times) and it's a real shame. The stage is still very playable and great though, and really holds nothing else against it other than the visuals. The dark shadows and bright flashes of light can hide things like Snake's grenades and conceal certain moves for a split second.

(Unfinished, will add more about stages not on this list later!)

 

[popemanz]

warioware is the only one

 

[DeNikSSB]

warioware is fine imo. i can understand the close blastzones and stuff but apart from that its neutral.

 

[dav3yb]

So something that has come up recently that I thought I'd ask about... I've been running echo stages that can be picked over a counterpart if the player choosing the stage wants, but at what point should blast zone differences be taken into account? Wilys Castle is often looked at for an echo stage, but with a blast zone that's 32 units higher than FD, should it be?

Also, has anyone tested to confirm the rebendal githib data site's accuracy? I've seen some conflicting information saying that Pokemon Stadium 2 has a higher blast zone than PS1. I'm going to try and do some testing on some of it tonight, but do people die from the main platform off the top at the same percentages?

Edit: Did some testing on PS1 and 2, and although one stage might be taller overall (bottom to top blastzone), the distance from the base platform is nearly, if not exactly identical. Doing some quick testing with fox vs mario, mario will not die to an uptilt from fox at 210, dies all the time to one at 212, and most of the time at 211, on both stages. I'm not exactly sure what causes the variance in sometimes dying and not at 211%, but I think I can conclude that at least for echo stages, PS1 and 2 are basically interchangeable.

 

[MarioManTAW]

So something that has come up recently that I thought I'd ask about... I've been running echo stages that can be picked over a counterpart if the player choosing the stage wants, but at what point should blast zone differences be taken into account? Wilys Castle is often looked at for an echo stage, but with a blast zone that's 32 units higher than FD, should it be?

Also, has anyone tested to confirm the rebendal githib data site's accuracy? I've seen some conflicting information saying that Pokemon Stadium 2 has a higher blast zone than PS1. I'm going to try and do some testing on some of it tonight, but do people die from the main platform off the top at the same percentages?

Edit: Did some testing on PS1 and 2, and although one stage might be taller overall (bottom to top blastzone), the distance from the base platform is nearly, if not exactly identical. Doing some quick testing with fox vs mario, mario will not die to an uptilt from fox at 210, dies all the time to one at 212, and most of the time at 211, on both stages. I'm not exactly sure what causes the variance in sometimes dying and not at 211%, but I think I can conclude that at least for echo stages, PS1 and 2 are basically interchangeable.

I believe that data site is literally the raw data in the stage files internally (Smash Ultimate uses the same file format as Smash 4), so it should be 100% accurate.

Regarding PS1 vs PS2, the difference in top blastzones exists but is insignificant (about 0.05 stage units). The bigger differences are:
-PS2 has slightly higher platforms
-PS2 has a wider base platform
-PS2 has a closer bottom blastzone
-The 2 stages have different undersides (easier to get pineappled on PS2)
-The 2 stages have different default spawn points for 1v1 (on PS1 players start near the ledges of the base stage, on PS2 they start on the platforms)

 

[ATH_]

Any hopes for stage updates in the 2.0.0 patch?

Personally, I'd love to see fixes to Fountain of Dreams and Pokemon Stadium 1. While I admit it's wishful thinking, I'd love an option in the rules for Hazards: Toggle, too. Or maybe something in the Random Stage Switch that lets you toggle hazards on and off for specific stages.

Doubt it but an option of whether or not to pick ruleset on Character Select rather than at the very beginning of the match process would be neat too.

Other than that, I doubt they're going to change anything about how stages function. While it would be certainly great to have things unified and consistent with what hazards are considered, I don't believe they're going to put so much effort into that.

I can't really think of much else myself, so I'd love to hear other's thoughts.