Meta SSBU Stagelist Discussion

[FanGoH]

I really like how the discussion is going with the stages, especially the diversity all of you are proposing, I am very in favor of that. Although I don't know If Skyloft/Halberd/Luminous are a good pick.

The only stage that I thought but I haven't see it being discussed is Magicant, I believe that is way different to all the traditional layouts, while not having a reason to ban it right away (Hazardless due to the Flying man)

 

[Munomario777]

magicant is dead; you can camp below the stage, plus the side platforms let people camp and force their opponent to jump



unrelatedly, i've trimmed my list a bit more

planning to test out skyloft too, at some point in the future (swap wuhu out for it)

(BF, FD, SV, PS1, UPL are starters)



Krysco awesome work!! MK, yoshi, and puff are the main characters i've seen traditional sharking work with.

wuhu is my personal pick for a semisoft stage:
- it's wider, so shark-scrooging from one side of the stage to another is less effective
- the layout is a bit more unique than skyloft or halberd (monoplat but with LOTS of space to either side of the plat; plus raised ledges)
- the ledges are slanted upward, so it might be easier for some characters to recover
--- if someone like marth is too close to the center of the screen to recover to the ledge, dolphin slash might be able to catch the dipped-down ground
--- someone like ike might not die as much if he quick draws too high to grab ledge?
- skyloft is asymmetric and weird
- prism and halberd are small and non-static (not necessarily bad, but idk)
- wii sports music

 

[dav3yb]

magicant is dead; you can camp below the stage, plus the side platforms let people camp and force their opponent to jump

Was watching Leffen's stream today and he was able to abuse this quite well. Kind of a shame, since I think all it would take is removing that small bottom platform and it'd actually be a decent stage, certainly would be the best semi soft stage imo.

 

[Munomario777]

ehhhhhhh idk. those side platforms are super high up + wide; you could definitely circle camp / "ha you have to jump to reach me now" camp

unrelated to legality: i love this clip from nairo's recent video lol (hazards on)

obviously the bottom platform is balanced, we just have to turn hazards on :^)

 

[Untouch]

Mushroom Kingdom U seems fine to me.
It's 210 width, compared to 186 with PS2 and 208 with Wuhu.

I do agree with the idea with really odd stages being pooled into one category so you don't need to waste bans on all of them.

 

[Tesh]

What is the appeal of Unova? It seems a bit redundant with Kalos and PS1/2.

Also is Duck Hunt worth revisiting with global changes making air/platform camping riskier?

 

[Munomario777]

unova has 2 platforms, but the actual size and proportions of the stage change how you play on it quite a bit

duck hunt is just even worse, if anything (no dog assist)

 

[Epok]

I've seen plenty of evidence that semisoft platforms are bad and I've tested it for myself, and I agree: They're bad. Besides, as Muno has already pointed out, since it's stage before character game 2-5 you'd be forced to always ban semisoft stages just in case they have a pocket Meta Knight or some other character who can abuse semisoft stages, and that's bad.

Having it be character before stage game 2+ would reduce the number of times you'd have to ban semisoft stages, though. If they don't pick someone who's good at them you don't have a problem, and if they do you'll ban it (Skyloft would presumably be the only legal semisoft stage).

With all due respect,
I don’t think “me and my friend tested it and we agree” is strong enough evidence for your claim. Why don’t you post a video or something so I can see what you’re referring to?

I also don’t think it’s realistic to determine stage legality based around character match ups. You have something around 2700 different 2 player matchups. And theres is no evidence that a semi solid platform should be excluded because players are worried about a pocket counter pick. At this rate we will be infinitely splitting hairs on issues that aren’t much more than large instances of personal preference.
It will turn into “ban FD because the opponent may have a pocket Little Mac and that’s a really good stage for him”
This type of mentality gets messy fast.

 

[Manonymous]

Is Norfair legal (hazardless) ?

 

[Munomario777]

And theres is no evidence that a semi solid platform should be excluded because players are worried about a pocket counter pick.

there's a very strong, compelling reason to exclude these stages IF we do stage-first in game 2+ (which is the traditional system)

i have a post about this, but here's the TL;DR of how it affects stuff like this (using "skyloft" as a stand-in for "any semi-soft stage," and "metaknight" as a stand-in for "any sharking character")

stage-first:
- if skyloft is EVER chosen, either player can whip out metaknight out of nowhere, and abuse the stage (stall until the timer runs out)
- so if you don't use a ban on skyloft, you're risking your opponent doing that
- so you're incentivized to use a ban on skyloft 99% of the time
- so you have to waste a ban, plus the stage itself hardly sees use
- (this is similar to lylat in smash 4, except it happens for a different reason)

character-first:
- if your opponent picks metaknight (etc), you know you need to ban skyloft
- if your opponent doesn't pick metaknight, you can pick skyloft with no fear
- you can NEVER change your character choice to abuse the stage, so the problem is averted

you bring up the mac / FD example in your post. it's true that character-first would ALSO help there (IMO) (see the post i linked), but it's PARTICULARLY problematic on skyloft with metaknight because sharking is an extremely powerful form of stalling with these character-stage combinations



Manonymous consensus is a resounding "no"

 

[Manonymous]

Manonymous consensus is a resounding "no"

Really ? Why ?

 

[Munomario777]

you have to jump to get anywhere, which screws with how the game plays on a pretty fundamental level (neutral completely changes, you can camp depending on MU, etc)

 

[Untouch]

I was thinking, a lot of people say MKU promotes circle camping.
But how?
Circle camping really only becomes a thing if you HAVE to jump on another platform to reach a character. The only character that can't double jump to the middle platform is Ganondorf, who can still hit above the platform with aerials.
Size may be a problem but I don't think circle camping will.

 

[Frihetsanka]

With all due respect,
I don’t think “me and my friend tested it and we agree” is strong enough evidence for your claim. Why don’t you post a video or something so I can see what you’re referring to?

Test it and see for yourself.

I also don’t think it’s realistic to determine stage legality based around character match ups.

Sharking is one of the issues with Skyloft, it might not even be the main issue. Even if Meta Knight or other sharking characters didn't exist Skyloft should be banned. It's most likely going to end up banned.

It will turn into “ban FD because the opponent may have a pocket Little Mac and that’s a really good stage for him”
This type of mentality gets messy fast.

Meta Knight on Skyloft is many times worse than Little Mac on FD.

Reminder that Lylat Cruise is a much better stage than the other "borderline" stages, and the main reason people are against it is because of Smash 4 bias.

 

[dav3yb]

Test it and see for yourself.

Maybe they did and were unable to discern any issue?

This kind of mentality isn't super helpful though. People have different play styles, and some might be able to abuse situations better than others. If there is an issue that you see as glaring somewhere, just telling people about how bad it is isn't a great way to convince them. Not only that, but the more concrete data we have on any particular stage/issue is going to help EVERYONE in making good decisions. More solid evidence is never a bad thing, but the "test it for yourself," is akin to the political argument of "just google it."

 

[Untouch]

I'll post this here.

 

[Epok]

there's a very strong, compelling reason to exclude these stages IF we do stage-first in game 2+ (which is the traditional system)

i have a post about this, but here's the TL;DR of how it affects stuff like this (using "skyloft" as a stand-in for "any semi-soft stage," and "metaknight" as a stand-in for "any sharking character")

stage-first:
- if skyloft is EVER chosen, either player can whip out metaknight out of nowhere, and abuse the stage (stall until the timer runs out)
- so if you don't use a ban on skyloft, you're risking your opponent doing that
- so you're incentivized to use a ban on skyloft 99% of the time
- so you have to waste a ban, plus the stage itself hardly sees use
- (this is similar to lylat in smash 4, except it happens for a different reason)

character-first:
- if your opponent picks metaknight (etc), you know you need to ban skyloft
- if your opponent doesn't pick metaknight, you can pick skyloft with no fear
- you can NEVER change your character choice to abuse the stage, so the problem is averted

you bring up the mac / FD example in your post. it's true that character-first would ALSO help there (IMO) (see the post i linked), but it's PARTICULARLY problematic on skyloft with metaknight because sharking is an extremely powerful form of stalling with these character-stage combinations



Manonymous consensus is a resounding "no"

Either way, you do it there is always going to be a way to potentially put the other player at a disadvantage whether it is stage or character pick first. There is no avoiding that. At some point, it has to be the player's responsibility to adapt to the stage or character and not have arbitrary rules pasted on to make things "fair". Besides, I have yet to see any proof of these claims affecting any high-level play or tournament results. I am more than happy to rethink my position if proper evidence is giving, but that is yet to be seen.

Test it and see for yourself.

Sharking is one of the issues with Skyloft, it might not even be the main issue. Even if Meta Knight or other sharking characters didn't exist Skyloft should be banned. It's most likely going to end up banned.

Meta Knight on Skyloft is many times worse than Little Mac on FD.

Reminder that Lylat Cruise is a much better stage than the other "borderline" stages and the main reason people are against it is because of Smash 4 bias.

But you're missing the point. SHARKING IS NOT A BANNED STRATEGY.
We can inherently ban stages because people don't like being sharked. If it is a valid strategy then it should not affect the stage list.
if Skyloft's floor was not a pass through we would say this stage is fine. I have never heard any serious debate about banning sharking. Maybe Metaknight in Brawl, but he was an extreme case of character imbalance.
me testing this is not a good enough sample to make that determination of a proper judgment, whos to say my own personal bias won't affect that conclusion. we have not tournament results, no twitter videos, no YouTube M2K vod (some slight sarcasm) showing that this is problematic

Metaknight sharking vs Mac on FD is an argument you have no data to support and is mostly just personal bias which is dangerous to make rules that will affect more than just yourself.

I was under the impression that Lylat cruise was banned because of the inconsistent edge grabbing. I have seen videos of that so I believed that to be the consensus. But, if there are people that don't like Lylat because of smash 4 bias then they should probably stop complaining.

 

[Frihetsanka]

But you're missing the point. SHARKING IS NOT A BANNED STRATEGY.

Sharking is not the main issue, Skyloft is worse than Lylat when it comes to recovering (some characters are significantly harmed by it while some can recover nearly for free). There's also the issue of camping under the stage, which is much more difficult or impossible on other stages.

I was under the impression that Lylat cruise was banned because of the inconsistent edge grabbing.

From what I've gathered it's actually consistent.

 

[Epok]

Sharking is not the main issue, Skyloft is worse than Lylat when it comes to recovering (some characters are significantly harmed by it while some can recover nearly for free). There's also the issue of camping under the stage, which is much more difficult or impossible on other stages.

From what I've gathered it's actually consistent.

Some characters have bad recoveries in general, some characters get to abuse flat edges to wall jump. some teleport stages get hindered by other popular stages like Unova, or PS1/2. Having one maybe 2 stages(Halberd) with a pass-through floor is not a major outlier it hasn't even been tested.

I will double check on Lylat. If it is just because people are flubbing their recovery I genuinely lack sympathy in that regard.

If you're going to compete you have to know how to move your character and recover on all stages. We don't ban thing because people have a hard time with a basic function of the game unless there is strong evidence to support that there is something wrong with the stage from a technical/programming standpoint.

 

[Munomario777]

who says we can't ban stages for creating unfun gameplay? lol

like, running away on temple is a "valid strategy," doesn't mean it's not an issue

in the same way, if sharking (camping under semisoft stages) is an issue, then there's a problem

IMO character-first should be looked at to try and deal with that more effectively. if char-first doesn't solve the problem, then RIP

 

[Manonymous]

Another question : hazardless Dracula's Castle, Moray Towers, Castle Siege, WuHu Island, Fountain of Dreams, Pilotwings, Warioware and Orpheon's Frégate are legal ?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Another question : hazardless Dracula's Castle, Moray Towers, Castle Siege, WuHu Island, Fountain of Dreams, Pilotwings, Warioware and Orpheon's Frégate are legal ?

None of them are (WarioWare and Castle Siege were the most likely but the main TOs seem to have given up on them).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'll post this here.

I was going to post this here, but I think its a good thing for people in here to see specifically. 1) This guy is your one major name pushing for a larger stage list. You better be leveraging this for all its worth. 2) He makes an excellent point about the number of wide stages vs number of smaller stages. If you ever every remotely possible legal stage legal, then you're going to end up with a very campy game because of a heavy imbalance towards large stages. Which makes for a boring/stale meta which can hurt the longevity of the game. This is actually a pretty critical thing to keep in mind when making your stage list... frankly I'd say its more important than having the largest list possible.

I've never actually bothered to post a stage list in here, but if I were ever to be in a situation where I could run a tournament, I'd be going with something like this:

Neutrals:
Battlefield
Pokemon Stadium 1
Castle Siege
Smashville
Kalos

Counterpicks (3 Bans during banning phase):
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium 2 (Banning PS1 also bans PS2 and vice versa)
Yoshi's Story
Dreamland
Warioware
Yoshi's Island Brawl
Lylat (Provided either the stuff is fixed or it turns out that its not actually two separate glitches but one and the same glitch as is happening on other stages, though it does sound like right now Peach and Kirby specifically have extra issues that aren't entirely consistent)

Doubles Only Counterpicks (4 Bans during banning phase):
Halbred
Super Mario Bros U.
Skyloft (After seeing the below posted videos, noooope)
Town and City
Frigate
Urnova

My goal, particularly for neutrals, is make the options as universally fair as possible regardless of what stages have to make the list/get cut to reach that point. Battlefield is neutral because its a very standard stage. Pokemon Stadium 1 is on there instead of PS2 because while still being very wide its not the widest stage we have legal. The inverse is true with Castle Siege: its tiny but not the tiniest stage we have legal. Kalos quite frankly is a more fair Final Destination without significantly changing the flow: platforms are there to help a little bit with recovering but they play the smallest role out of all stages with platforms (without entirely getting rid of them). Smashville is stage with a fixed middle platform but not the largest fixed middle platform. There's also a mix of stages with walls along the side and stages without them which is nice to have.

The counterpicks are partly stages that reflect what's in the neutral list, but even more so. Final Destination is Kalos but even more so about a lack of platforms. Wariorware is Castle Siege but even more so about having a small stage with close blastzones. Yoshi's Island Brawl is Smashville but even more so about that large middle platform. After that, Lylat has a unique platform layout and should be legal if at all possible. Pokemon Stadium 2 is the largest possible, feesiblely legal stage so I wanted it to be legal, but what M2K said about balancing wide vs narrow stages is a legit concern hence how it I set it up in terms of banning. If I could fit Town and City into that sort of set up reasonably I would have done the same for it but it just doesn't have an equivalent stage I can connect to by the hip like that so ultimately despite it being perfectly legal in of itself... I couldn't have it on the list without me being worried about the balance. Not without cutting a different large stage for it. Yoshi's Story made the cut due to needing another small stage to balance things out (particularly if Lylat ends up being no good). Dreamland is an interesting combo of "small physical stage, large expanded blastzones" meaning that is... kinda both a small stage and a large stage at the same time? But not so it ends up emphasizing the ability to edgeguard? Its weird, works well enough for CP for me.

Fountain of Dreams stayed off because of the lag. I don't think its going to get fixed so its SOL.

Doubles I'm willing to be a lot more experimental with. Stages that don't make the cut for singles due to needing to balance out wide vs narrow (SMBU, TaC) show up here, as well as a few other oddities like Halbred. Basically in general because its taken less seriously I'd be more comfortable having odd stages show up. Its also a way to "soft test" stages for single legality like Frigate: sneak it in, see how it plays. If it plays fine for doubles and nothing comes up that could be a problem during single play, look at adding it to the singles CP list. However I would want to add stages to the CP list in groups of 2 for wide vs narrow balancing reasons. I'd be rather reluctant to add just one stage to the CP list unless it was out there enough that it didn't really "count" for wide vs narrow.

 

[Epok]

who says we can't ban stages for creating unfun gameplay? lol

like, running away on temple is a "valid strategy," doesn't mean it's not an issue

in the same way, if sharking (camping under semisoft stages) is an issue, then there's a problem

IMO character-first should be looked at to try and deal with that more effectively. if char-first doesn't solve the problem, then RIP

Ummm "un-fun"? again bias without any evidence. fun and unfun fall into the "Jank" category of unquantifiable trterms we use when describing something.

Wobbling is legal (up to 300%) and that is wildly considered "not fun"... depending on if you are on wobbler or wobblee.

We have proper EVIDENCE to support banning overly large stages that promote circle camping (running away), but again you have provided no evidence that any of the stages we're considering are prone to that. There have always been rules in place to punish obvious stalling or making it effectively impossible for a player to be hit and time them out. We have gained plenty of evidence through years of testing that Hyrule Temple doesn't promote healthy gameplay. That's why you don't see me or anyone else arguing for Plaetuna's Temple or New Pork City to be legal stages. Camping, zoning, and timing out are legal strategies that some players\characters depend on to be functional in competition and should be allowed to do so if there is no obvious illegal stalling or fleeing. If tournament results begin to heavily favor an "un-fun" strategy and other ways to beat an opponent become significantly limited then we can make adjustments but as of right now we have not had a large enough sample size to infer that these claims of "un-fun" gameplay are impacting the game.

 

[Munomario777]

From beneath the middle of skyloft, meta knight can:
- uair/up-b through to attack
- side-b to either ledge
- down-b to land with minimal lag
- waveland b/c of the little hop that happens at the start of airdodge
- tornado to anywhere, incl. top plat

Does that sound degenerate?

— Andrew Nestico (@PracticalTAS) December 13, 2018

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/509437485198082059/522877804350537731/2018-12-13_21-48-01.mp4

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/509437485198082059/522880751738421275/2018-12-13_22-00-49.mp4

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/509437485198082059/522883716834525187/2018-12-13_22-12-46.mp4

 

[Manonymous]

None of them are (WarioWare and Castle Siege were the most likely but the main TOs seem to have given up on them).

Why they aren't legal ?

 

[Deleted member]

I may not like Dracula’s Castle.

But why is it illegal? Even when it doesn’t have any hazard?

 

[MarioManTAW]

Another question : hazardless Dracula's Castle, Moray Towers, Castle Siege, WuHu Island, Fountain of Dreams, Pilotwings, Warioware and Orpheon's Frégate are legal ?

Why they aren't legal ?

Dracula's Castle: Walls, slope on right side, asymmetry, large stage
Moray Towers: Large stage, overly vertical, ceilings, slopes, weird up/down mechanic
Castle Siege: slopes, asymmetry, small stage, weird camera (still in consideration)
Wuhu Island: massive slopes, semi-solid, large stage (still in consideration)
Fountain of Dreams: occasional frame drops
Pilotwings: walls
WarioWare: close blastzones, small stage (still in consideration)
Frigate Orpheon: asymmetric stage, moving platform, temporary wall (possibly still in consideration)

 

[Opossum]

I'm in full agreement with M2K. Castle Seige and WarioWare should absolutely be legal, especially considering most stage lists without them heavily favor projectile campers. Stage size diversity is necessary for character diversity to prevent the meta from getting stale.

 

[Manonymous]

Dracula's Castle: Walls, slope on right side, asymmetry, large stage
Moray Towers: Large stage, overly vertical, ceilings, slopes, weird up/down mechanic
Castle Siege: slopes, asymmetry, small stage, weird camera (still in consideration)
Wuhu Island: massive slopes, semi-solid, large stage (still in consideration)
Fountain of Dreams: occasional frame drops
Pilotwings: walls
WarioWare: close blastzones, small stage (still in consideration)
Frigate Orpheon: asymmetric stage, moving platform, temporary wall (possibly still in consideration)

Okay well thanks for your answers !
But can we have a bigger stage list this time around please ? I'm tired of seeing the same stage over and over again.

 

[ad516]

Quick question (first post too!) Thoughts on omegas and battlefield forms and whether or not they should be legal? I think they should, it allows the aesthetics of the banned stages to be there but with the layouts of tourney viable stages.

 

[Munomario777]

omegas and battlefield forms should absolutely be legal

there are documented cases where they differ mechanically from battlefield / FD in subtle ways, so it's probably best to also allow either player to say "I'd rather play on regular battlefield / FD"

 

[Opossum]

Most major tournaments have a blanket ban on Omega/Battlefield forms due to issues with music licensing. Streaming music at a tournament is technically a separate license, and all. The Earthbound stages, Sonic stages, and Midgar, in particular, have issues here.

 

[Pizzaguylol]

Most major tournaments have a blanket ban on Omega/Battlefield forms due to issues with music licensing. Streaming music at a tournament is technically a separate license, and all. The Earthbound stages, Sonic stages, and Midgar, in particular, have issues here.

I saw people picking Omegas and BF at DPOTG. Either way, just don't pick the stages with the copyright music.

 

[PsySmasher]

As someone somewhat new to the competitive scene, I just would like to know, as of now:

What stages are universally considered to be legal?
What stages are being considered to be legal and why people are against them?

Thanks.

 

[Pizzaguylol]

As someone somewhat new to the competitive scene, I just would like to know, as of now:

What stages are universally considered to be legal?
What stages are being considered to be legal and why people are against them?

Thanks.

It's a work in progress, but the general list(s) I've seen have included (all hazards off)

Pretty common:
* Battlefield
* Final Destination
* Pokemon Stadium 2
* Smashville
* Town and City
* Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
* Castle Siege
* Kalos Pokemon League
* WarioWare, Inc.
* Frigate Orpheon
* Yoshi's Story
* Wily Castle
* Unova Pokemon League

Less common:
* Rainbow Cruise
* Skyloft
* Halberd
* Wuhu Island

Mushroom Kingdom U is often seen as OK for a Doubles CP, but some think it's ok for a singles CP.

 

[Manonymous]

It's a work in progress, but the general list(s) I've seen have included (all hazards off)

Pretty common:
* Battlefield
* Final Destination
* Pokemon Stadium 2
* Smashville
* Town and City
* Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
* Castle Siege
* Kalos Pokemon League
* WarioWare, Inc.
* Frigate Orpheon
* Yoshi's Story
* Wily Castle

Less common:
* Rainbow Cruise
* Skyloft
* Halberd
* Wuhu Island

Mushroom Kingdom U is often seen as OK for a Doubles CP, but some think it's ok for a singles CP.

What about Unova Pokemon League ?

 

[Pizzaguylol]

What about Unova Pokemon League ?

Whoops! Right you are. Added.

 

[Scoutmain06]

How about instead of banning stages because you are too lazy, you actually learn how they work. But who am I kidding, learning to adapt is the last thing on all of your minds, which is why you turn off items.

 

[Tesh]

Don't think Omegas or BF versions of stages should be allowed tbh. The huge variance in backgrounds just becomes an extra counterpick quality. There are many things that are already difficult enough to see without blending into the background or having a back ground with a lot more motion than normal. They also have different camera angles sometimes too. With 100+ stages, its just kind of silly to allow people to swap out all these backgrounds and nonsense to screw with your perception.