Meta SSBU Stagelist Discussion

[Fenrir VII]

Not trying to start something, but 2GG's list is probably the worst stage list I've seen in a smash game thus far.

Starters favor characters who do well on FD by offering T&C as well, which is essentially FD more than half the time. Oh and if your opponent is at a disadvantage on FD, they can strike those two only to end up on... PS1. Another long/open stage that favors zoning and runaway.
And THEN, if the runaway char manages to lose the starter or CP match, they then get ANOTHER FD (Kalos) to add as a CP. Play against sonic using that stage list and you'll see what I mean.

Horribly, horribly unbalanced list that I wish would burn in a fire... And just another example of people looking closely at the stages but not the list as a whole.

 

[dav3yb]

Not trying to start something, but 2GG's list is probably the worst stage list I've seen in a smash game thus far.

Starters favor characters who do well on FD by offering T&C as well, which is essentially FD more than half the time. Oh and if your opponent is at a disadvantage on FD, they can strike those two only to end up on... PS1. Another long/open stage that favors zoning and runaway.
And THEN, if the runaway char manages to lose the starter or CP match, they then get ANOTHER FD (Kalos) to add as a CP. Play against sonic using that stage list and you'll see what I mean.

Horribly, horribly unbalanced list that I wish would burn in a fire... And just another example of people looking closely at the stages but not the list as a whole.

No, you're right, it's a **** list.

I'm honestly wondering if before it's over this game is just going to end up with all games played on Hazardless Pokemon Stadium or something. At the rate it's going it actually will end up like Smash 64 because people refuse to adapt.

 

[Theomancer]

I'm the head T.O. for Elm City Esports in New Haven, CT. Just to throw some info into the hat, here's the ruleset we decided to start with.

There are a few ideas behind this:

(1) The meta is fresh, and it's good to be broad and open with the stagelist options instead of narrow and conservative. We can weed out what doesn't work, as we go along.

(2) Players generally don't have a wide character pool, and mostly main 1-2 characters. We decided to do character select before stage counter-pick, in order to make the stage counter-pick actually a bit more meaningful of a choice, and a bit of a "comeback mechanic" for the loser of game1.

(3) Yes, some of these counter-pick stages might feel "jank," but that's only on some characters more than others. That's the entire purpose of a stage counter-pick, to be able to favor yourself more than your opponent. Every single stage on this counter-pick list is also used by either top-tier players like ZeRo, or top-tier major Smash tournaments. You can see more at http://bans.page/.

Stages that we had originally included, but removed for this-or-that reasoning: Halberd, Prism Tower, Arena Ferox

 

[dav3yb]

I'm the head T.O. for Elm City Esports in New Haven, CT. Just to throw some info into the hat, here's the ruleset we decided to start with.

There are a few ideas behind this:

(1) The meta is fresh, and it's good to be broad and open with the stagelist options instead of narrow and conservative. We can weed out what doesn't work, as we go along.

(2) Players generally don't have a wide character pool, and mostly main 1-2 characters. We decided to do character select before stage counter-pick, in order to make the stage counter-pick actually a bit more meaningful of a choice, and a bit of a "comeback mechanic" for the loser of game1.

(3) Yes, some of these counter-pick stages might feel "jank," but that's only on some characters more than others. That's the entire purpose of a stage counter-pick, to be able to favor yourself more than your opponent. Every single stage on this counter-pick list is also used by either top-tier players like ZeRo, or top-tier major Smash tournaments. You can see more at http://bans.page/.

Stages that we had originally included, but removed for this-or-that reasoning: Halberd, Prism Tower, Arena Ferox

This is how you start off with a fresh meta. Plenty of stages, plenty of options. Although I'd like to hear some of the reasons for dropping Prism/Halberd. Sadly Ferox i can understand.

 

[Theomancer]

Halberd because apparently at the intro of the stage, there's a mechanic that can auto-kill you if you aren't paying attention and get hit by it. Prism because it was a bit of an idiosyncratic choice desired by a player in our scene, but after we removed New Donk and Halberd, it was easier and more straightforward to take out all three together, and just have a clean list of 10 counter-pick stages.

 

[dav3yb]

Halberd because apparently at the intro of the stage, there's a mechanic that can auto-kill you if you aren't paying attention and get hit by it. Prism because it was a bit of an idiosyncratic choice desired by a player in our scene, but after we removed New Donk and Halberd, it was easier and more straightforward to take out all three together, and just have a clean list of 10 counter-pick stages.

I really hope the mechanic on halberd isn't the fast takeoff, where you have to actually be on the main platform, or jump to not be killed by the lower blast-zone, because there are literal sirens and alarms going off warning of that on the stage.

 

[Munomario777]

Cool stuff Theo!

The takeoff isn’t a reason to ban halberd

 

[Pizzaguylol]

I think this would be my ideal list:

Starters
1. Battlefield(s)
2. Final Destination/Omegas
3. Pokemon Stadium 1/2 (Hazards Off)
4. Smashville (Hazards On)
5. Town & City (Hazards On)

Counterpicks:
1. Brinstar (Hazards Off; main platform is semi-soft, otherwise it's fine)
2. Castle Siege (Hazards Off)
3. Fountain of Dreams (Hazards On: BF but with changing platforms)
4. Frigate Orpheon (Hazards Off)
5. Halberd (Hazards Off: The opening walk-off is only there for ~5 seconds before the platforms come out. The ship takes off ~11 seconds in and never returns to the walk-offs. Central platform can be passed through during flight/when not on the ship.)
6. Kalos (Hazards Off)
7. Lylat Cruise (Hazards Off)
8. Mushroom Kingdom U (Hazards Off; not too big, honestly)
9. Pokemon Stadium 1 (Hazards On; Melee nostalgia aside, possibly good stage for some characters. There is a bug that can occur during transformations sometimes where a character will be embedded in the stage)
10. Rainbow Cruise (Hazards Off: The slopes/wall aren't an issue in my testing; blast zones are fine.)
11. Skyloft (Hazards Off; Main platform is semi-soft)
12. Unova (Hazards Off)
13. WarioWare Inc. (Hazards Off: Blast zones a little snug, needs more testing)
14. Wily Castle (Hazards Off: FD with walls and slightly bigger (1.1x) stage)
15. Wuhu Island (Hazards Off: Slanted edges aren't an issue afaik? Main platform is semi-soft)
16. Yoshi's Island (Brawl) (Hazards On; I don't find the assist ghosts an issue. Shy Guys can be hit by attacks)
17. Yoshi's Story (Hazards On: Triplat with Randall the cloud. The Shy Guys bringing food glitch will hopefully be patched. In all honesty it's not as big of a deal in practice as people might think).

 

[dav3yb]

12. WarioWare Inc. (Hazards Off: Blast zones a little snug, needs more testing)

This stage is fine... people just need to git gud, in all honesty.

 

[Cahalan]

1. Pokemon Stadium 2 has a wider base platform, making stage traversal slightly slower and allowing slightly earlier kills from the ledge. I've also heard that there are differences in the undersides of the stages, but I'm not sure exactly what these differences are.
2. First of all, I don't see anything remotely wrong with FD so I would say the better question IMO is why would any rulesets not make FD a legal stage. I think the reason is two-fold: one, tradition (it's been unanimously legal forever), and two, most people think it's actually balanced. I believe you are in the minority in claiming that FD should be banned, although some seem to think it should not be a starter (which I also don't understand).

I didn't imply banning FD, I just rather have it as a counter pick.

I'm just used to FD being a counter pick after playing Project M so goddamn much.

 

[lordvaati]

Whats the consensus on Hazardless Pictochat?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Whats the consensus on Hazardless Pictochat?

It's basically a Final Destination clone with slopes and different blast zones, so it's fine.

 

[Epok]

FD has historically been neutral why is it now deemed to be a potential counter pick stage?

 

[lordvaati]

FD has historically been neutral why is it now deemed to be a potential counter pick stage?

ever since 2011 or so many contested that the stage should be dropped down to a CP due to heavily favoring Projectile based characters like Falco or being exploitable to chain grabs(back when those were a thing>) heck there was a point when some argued that fd should be banned in sm4sh due to the dynamic background and replaced with an Omega variant.

It's been pretty back and forth for a while.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's interesting (to me, at least) that FD is so widely popular and accepted despite being an extreme-yet-subtle outlier. There aren't very many stages in the game that are simply flat with no platforms -- FD itself is one, of course, but other than that there's Bridge of Eldin and a handful like Wily Castle where the hazard toggle ends up disabling everything interesting about it. (The full list: Final Destination, Bridge of Eldin, Wily Castle, Pictochat, Umbra Clock Tower, Living Room, Coliseum.)

I'm discounting Omega forms for obvious reasons.

 

[Munomario777]

The SoCal ultimate recommended rule set, which is currently not finalized and will be effect January 1st has been updated!

Starter

* Final Destination
* Battlefield
* Smashville
* Town & City
* Pokémon Stadium 2
* Kalos Pokémon League
* Yoshi’s Island https://t.co/dERuhRAc3i

— 2GG (@2GGaming) December 23, 2018

nice meme

 

[Ninten (BBs)]

Here are some stages that we all can agree that should be banned
Palutenas Temple
Great Cave Offensive
Spirit Train
Dream Land GB
Kongo Falls (barrel cannon)
Temple
Gaur Plain
3d Land
Golden Plains
Mushroomy Kingdom


New Stages that are definetly legal:
Moray Towers

Speaking of reset bomb forest, should be a tier 2 stage

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Here are some stages that we all can agree that should be banned
Palutenas Temple
Great Cave Offensive
Spirit Train
Dream Land GB
Kongo Falls (barrel cannon)
Temple
Gaur Plain
3d Land
Golden Plains
Mushroomy Kingdom


New Stages that are definetly legal:
Moray Towers

Moray Towers is probably too big to be legal, and has a weird layout.

 

[dav3yb]

Moray Towers is probably too big to be legal, and has a weird layout.

Also has several hard ceilings

 

[Rizen]

IMO Brinstar should be illegal (if it isn't already). The ledges are too inconsistent to grab. Try hitting one with something like Wolf's side B; it's a nightmare.

 

[Pizzaguylol]

IMO Brinstar should be illegal (if it isn't already). The ledges are too inconsistent to grab. Try hitting one with something like Wolf's side B; it's a nightmare.

You can go through the main platform, too. Shame, I had hopes for it.

Also, sorry for double posting, but as someone unfamiliar with the term, what does PXP1 mean? Thanks!

 

[dav3yb]

Also, sorry for double posting, but as someone unfamiliar with the term, what does PXP1 mean? Thanks!

Pick X# of Stages, Opponent Picks 1 of those to play on.

 

[Pizzaguylol]

Pick X# of Stages, Opponent Picks 1 of those to play on.

I like it. I feel like with this many potentially legal stages it would be a great option to use in tournaments. Could keep the 5 starters I guess and then just choose from however many "legal" stages there are and go from there.

 

[Deleted member]

Here's the stagelist I've been running among friends. We don't actually play with starters and counterpicks but this is how I'd categorize them if I was organizing a tournament. Hazards are off for everything except Smashville (really wish they'd keep the moving platform and just disable the balloon for hazards off but what are you gonna do about it), and pretty much every Omega/BF form is allowed except the 2D stages and Fountain of Dreams due to getting rid of the Z-axis or potential lag spikes from the reflections. Tournament streams would also have to ban any Omega/BF forms that had music on them that could result in a copyright claim as well.

Starters:

1. Battlefield
2. Final Destination
3. Lylat Cruise
4. Pokemon Stadium 2
5. Smashville (Hazards On)

Counterpicks:

1. WarioWare, Inc.
2. Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
3. Castle Siege
4. Mushroom Kingdom U
5. Kalos Pokemon League
6. Town and City

Only stage on this list that might cause issues in certain matchups would be Mushroom Kingdom U, but even when i tried to runaway camp with Isabelle games didn't come close to timing out. That being said, I'm also not the best Isabelle player out there so I'd need further testing before coming to a conclusion, but it's really not that big of a stage so I'm leaning towards legal on this one.

It's worth noting that having only one stage with Hazards On could become a bit of a headache at larger tournaments, but I think having both a moving and a stationary monoplat stage in Smashville and Yoshi's Island is worth it.

By the way, we used to run Frigate Orpheon, Brinstar, Skyloft, and Halberd, but we're not fans of walls (even temporary ones), and the ledges on all four can be very finicky to the point that you can just side b right through them before falling to your unwarranted death. Halberd is the least obnoxious but the beginning section has its own problems with early KOs in addition to the ledges. Also Brinstar has weird slopes and is super ugly. Like why are those fleshy pillars on the ledges halfway inside the foreground? It's so weird to see your character standing smack dab in the middle of one of them rather than in front of it.

 

[ShneeOscar]

I'm wondering how everyone got set on using PS2 instead of PS1 while they are almost identical, and from my experience, the ledges are slightly better (Also PS1 looks slightly better IMO, but that may just be me.)

 

[Epok]

ever since 2011 or so many contested that the stage should be dropped down to a CP due to heavily favoring Projectile based characters like Falco or being exploitable to chain grabs(back when those were a thing>) heck there was a point when some argued that fd should be banned in sm4sh due to the dynamic background and replaced with an Omega variant.

It's been pretty back and forth for a while.

So does this mean that platforms are inherently more fair, and if so why? Also is there a particular arrangement of platforms that are more/less fair than others?

 

[Fenrir VII]

I'm wondering how everyone got set on using PS2 instead of PS1 while they are almost identical, and from my experience, the ledges are slightly better (Also PS1 looks slightly better IMO, but that may just be me.)

I'd argue that PS1 is clearly better with the main platform being a bit less wide, the platforms being a bit lower, and the ceiling area under the stage being smaller and much more noticeable.

 

[ShneeOscar]

I'd argue that PS1 is clearly better with the main platform being a bit less wide, the platforms being a bit lower, and the ceiling area under the stage being smaller and much more noticeable.

For full disclosure I should mention that I main Sheik and her UpSmash can hit PS1's platforms but not PS2's, so I may have a bit of a vested interest in PS1 over PS2, but I do agree that slightly lower platforms and a slightly shorter stage are probably better overall.

 

[Rizen]

I prefer PS2. It defeats the purpose of platforms if they're so low anyone can poke through them.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I've seen some of the stage lists proposed by the major TOs and... I guess we're going to end up with 5-7 stages in the end. Seems Lylat is missing on many lists without good reasoning as for why, which is worrying.

 

[Pizzaguylol]

I prefer PS2. It defeats the purpose of platforms if they're so low anyone can poke through them.

You can do this on battlefield, though. Maybe PS1 as a counter pick then. I mean the whole point of counter picks is to counter a character you lost to, right?

 

[Munomario777]

oh yay, G6 is using that 7-stage ruleset

RIP anything else ever being legal i guess...

 

[Pizzaguylol]

oh yay, G6 is using that 7-stage ruleset

RIP anything else ever being legal i guess...

Ugh. Hopefully we get a hazards toggle sooner or later. Without that, I don't see more stages being added. Hell, even then, IDK. Shame on this community for being unable to be adventurous with stage lists, especially in the early days.

 

[Pizzaguylol]

One possible way to simply Starters vs Counterpicks could be to simply make all starters hazards off, all Counterpicks hazards on. Can't be much more obvious which one you're in if you look at the toggle.

Starters (hazards off)
* BF
* FD
* Lylat Cruise
* Pokemon Stadium 2
* Frigate Orpheon

Counterpicks (hazards on)
* Dream Land 64/Yoshi's Story (if it gets fixed)
* Pokemon Stadium (1)
* Smashville
* Town and City
* Yoshi's Island

 

[Untouch]

This is obviously going to fall on blind eyes but.
https://clips.twitch.tv/DreamyDaintyDinosaurPermaSmug
The """lylat""" bug can even happen on battlefield.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I prefer PS2. It defeats the purpose of platforms if they're so low anyone can poke through them.

PS1's platforms are slightly higher than BF's, though. It's just that higher platforms typically promote runaway play, and the larger stage doesn't help that. That mixed with the removal of a bit of 'jank' (no wall cling on the lower stem and the ceiling area under the stage being much better defined) makes me believe it's a much better stage

 

[ParanoidDrone]

This is obviously going to fall on blind eyes but.
https://clips.twitch.tv/DreamyDaintyDinosaurPermaSmug
The """lylat""" bug can even happen on battlefield.

#BanBattlefield

/s, in case it really needed to be said.

 

[dav3yb]

This is obviously going to fall on blind eyes but.
https://clips.twitch.tv/DreamyDaintyDinosaurPermaSmug
The """lylat""" bug can even happen on battlefield.

ohhhh yes... I'm going to send this to everyone who keeps screaming about issues with Lylat.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The problem is that it happens far more consistently on Lylat than Battlefield and can be semi-replicated unlike that which is a random one-off. That also wasn't normal Battlefield, it was a Battlefield mode for another stage. At most all you'll get is "alright, can't play BF mode on that stage either". The Lylat ledge issues with Kirby/Peach/Daisy were replicated post patch, they still happen. It ain't going to be legal until its fixed for fairly valid reasons.

(Also another point that kind hurts that BF example: it was Ike. Ike has some weird things every now and then, has in every Smash game he's been in. If his Aether spike hits somebody the Yoshi stage slope they go flying off almost perfectly horizontally and almost guarantees a kill for example. There is also the fact it happened after the dramatic zoom in for a potential KO blow on top of it being online, so the combination of the two could have caused a hiccup.)

Again, you all want something to actually change? Gotta do more than complain about things here. I can guaranteed you none of the major TOs are reading this topic. Or taking random retweets seriously. Make a name for yourself, actually go to tournaments, become a large TO yourself. Nothing will change otherwise. All you got here is well, for lack of a better term: a circlejerk. And those accomplish nothing other than make everyone involve satisfied with themselves. Been here, tried that (and this was back when some of the large TOs would actually occasionally poke their heads into the topic, at least the Texas ones would which is where I was at the time), nothing happened.

 

[Runic_SSB]

I've spent the past few weeks measuring various aspects of the stages, here are my results. All tests were done in Training mode on a lvl. 3 Mario set to "stop", and all measurements are rounded to the nearest half unit. Every testing method matched Battlefield's confirmed measurements.

1. Blast Zones

Method: Recorded kill % for Ganon's Jab (side) and full hop Dair (top) from the center of the stage, then went to the training room and measured how many units Mario flew at that %. Have not found a good way to test bottom blast zones yet.

Stage|Side Blast Zones|Top Blast Zone
Battlefield|22.5|18
Dreamland|23|18
Yoshi's Story|21|17
Fountain of Dreams|22.5|18
Midgar|23|18
Final Destination|22.5|17
Pictochat|21|17
Wily's Castle|23|19
Umbra Clock Tower|23.5|17
Smashville|22|17
Yoshi's Island|20.5|17
Wuhu Island|23|20
Pokemon Stadium 1|23.5|17
Pokemon Stadium 2|23.5|17
Unova Pokemon League|22.5|17.5
Brinstar|17|17
WarioWare|16|18
Lylat Cruise|21|16
Frigate Orpheon|21|17
Halberd Flying|22|17
Halberd Ship|22|16
Castle Siege|19|16
Town & City|22|18
Mushroom Kingdom U|23|19
Skyloft|21|18
Kalos Pokemon League|23|18

2. Stage Length

Method: Recorded kill % for Ganon's Jab from the edge of the stage, then went to the training room and recorded how many units Mario flew at that %, subtracted that number from the side blast zone and doubled it (center to edge is half the stage, so that x2 is full stage).

Stage|Length
Battlefield|15
Dreamland|14
Yoshi's Story|13
Fountain of Dreams|15
Midgar|16
Final Destination|15
Pictochat|16
Wily's Castle|18
Umbra Clock Tower|19
Smashville|14
Yoshi's Island|13
Wuhu Island|20
Pokemon Stadium 1|18
Pokemon Stadium 2|19
Unova Pokemon League|17
Brinstar|10
WarioWare|10
Lylat Cruise|14
Frigate Orpheon|10
Halberd Flying|16
Halberd Ship|19
Castle Siege|13
Town & City|18
Mushroom Kingdom U|19
Skyloft|17
Kalos Pokemon League|16

3. Platform Length

Method: Recorded kill % for Ganon's short hop sweetspot Fair at each edge of the platform, then went to the training room and recorded how many units Mario flew at that %, and subtracted the second number from the first.

Stage|Side/Bottom platform length|Center/Top platform length
Battlefield|3|3
Dreamland|3|4
Yoshi's Story|4|4
Fountain of Dreams|3|3
Midgar|4|4
Smashville|0|4
Yoshi's Island|0|5.5
Wuhu Island|0|4
Pokemon Stadium 1|3|0
Pokemon Stadium 2|3|0
Unova Pokemon League|3|0
Brinstar|3, 3|3
WarioWare|3.5|2
Lylat Cruise|3|3
Frigate Orpheon|0|4
Halberd|0|5
Castle Siege|3|3
Town|4|4
City|4|0
Mushroom Kingdom U|5, 5|5
Skyloft|5|4
Kalos Pokemon League|3|0

Note: If there are two numbers listed in the bottom/side platform column, that means there are three platforms at different elevations. The second number is the middle platform.

4. Stage Height

Method: Recorded kill % for Ganon's full hop Dair from platform, then went to the training room and recorded how many units Mario flew at that %, and subtracted that number from the top blast zone.

Stage|Side/Bottom platform height|Center/Top platform height
Battlefield|2.5|4.5
Dreamland|2.5|4.5
Yoshi's Story|3|5.5
Fountain of Dreams|1.5-2.5*-3|4.5
Midgar|2.5|4.5
Smashville|0|2
Yoshi's Island|0|2.5
Wuhu Island|0|3
Pokemon Stadium 1|2.5|0
Pokemon Stadium 2|2.5|0
Unova Pokemon League|2.5|0
Brinstar|1.5, 2.5|3.5
WarioWare|1.5|4
Lylat Cruise|1.5|1.5
Frigate Orpheon|0|2.5
Halberd Flying|0|2.5
Halberd Ship|0|2
Castle Siege|1.5|2.5
Town|4|3*-6
City|3|0
Mushroom Kingdom U|2.5, 3.5|4.5
Skyloft|2.5-3|4.5
Kalos Pokemon League|0|3

Notes:

* If there are two numbers listed in the bottom/side platform column, that means there are three platforms at different elevations. The second number is the middle platform.

*If there's a range instead of just one number (ex. 1-2), that platform either moves vertically or is a slope. The number with the * next to it is the height with hazards off.

*These numbers are based off of the vertical distance from the center of the stage, not the part of the stage directly underneath.

5. Comparing Similar Stages

There are some stage archetypes that multiple different stages fall into. These are Battlefield-likes, Final Destination-likes, Smashville-likes, and Pokemon Stadium-likes. they're grouped together in the above charts, but I'll group them together again.

Battlefield-likes:

Stage|Side Blast Zones|Top Blast Zone|Length|Side/Bottom platform length|Center/Top platform length|Side/Bottom platform height|Center/Top platform height
Battlefield|22.5|18|15|3|3|2.5|4.5
Dreamland|23|18|14|3|4|2.5|4.5
Yoshi's Story|21|17|13|4|4|3|5.5
Fountain of Dreams|22.5|18|15|3|3|1.5-2.5*-3|4.5
Midgar|23|18|16|4|4|2.5|4.5|

Final Destination-likes:

Stage|Side Blast Zones|Top Blast Zone|Length
Final Destination|22.5|17|15
Pictochat|21|17|16
Wily's Castle|23|19|18
Umbra Clock Tower|23.5|17|19

Smashville-likes:

Stage|Side Blast Zones|Top Blast Zone|Length|Platform length|Platform height
Smashville|22|17|14|4|2
Yoshi's Island|20.5|17|13|5.5|2.5
Wuhu Island|23|20|20|4|3

Pokemon Stadium-likes:

Stage|Side Blast Zones|Top Blast Zone|Length|Platform length|Platform height
Pokemon Stadium 1|23.5|17|18|3|2.5
Pokemon Stadium 2|23.5|17|19|3|2.5
Unova Pokemon League|22.5|17.5|17|3|2.5