Q&A SSBU Mechanics & Techniques General

Gunla

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#1
Hello, and welcome to the Mechanics & Techniques General Thread. This will be a basic repository and discussion thread for basic and more advanced techniques as well as some straightforward Q&A. If you feel your question may be less geared towards these and other closely related topics, you are welcome to use the Ultimate General Discussion subforum's Q&A Thread.

If you've made a major discovery (or think you may have), this is the place to take it! Not sure how an advanced technique works or how to apply it? Found something that seems off? This is also the thread for you!

Some important threads, all from Chiroz:
Additional Important Techniques and Posts (from both inside and outside this thread):
 
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Qina

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#2
Wizzrobe found the SU wavedash. I dunno how effective or helpful it'll be but there's potential.

 
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J0eyboi

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#4

This tech allows you to RAR before executing a full dash, which is extremely useful for a lot of combos and confirms.

Also, I don't have any footage, but you seem to be able to upsmash earlier out of a dash than any other non dash-based ground move.
 
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#5
I think there's no need to Z buffer to wavedash. I jump with Y and have X set to shield, I roll my thumb from Y to X quick enough and I'm able to do the same wavedash that people use Z buffering for. I play Samus and am able to wavedash properly with her. I believe the trick to wavedashing properly is making sure not to fullhop.

Just something I feel like needs some testing.
 
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SaltySparker

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#6
I found a weird tech (maybe useless?) when I was messing around in training mode. If you press down when on a platform, you normally drop through, right? Well, if you air dodge down the moment after you drop down, you stay on the platform. I find it easiest to hold down, and as soon as the drop-down animation starts, air dodge down. It doesn't seem to share the landing lag with a normal air dodge to the ground. I have only tried this so far with Link and Mario, and don't know if it works with others (probably will though).

Don't know if it will be useful for anything, but I am putting it here in case it is.

Edit: the one thing I can think of it being is a very quick spot dodge.
Also, if anyone can check if it works with diagonal down dodges. that would be great!

Another edit: I checked the frames in training, and the spot dodging is faster than this. However, this trick gives 4-5 frames of invincibility, while a spot dodge gives about 14-15 frames of invincibility. After inputting an angle in the air dodge, it does move you either forward or backward quickly. You can move backward and still face forwards using this.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/a536km
 
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#8
I have been playing/watching a lot of the game and I have not seen anything that looks like a 2 frame punish like that of Sm4sh. I want to know if my attempts are futile or not.
 

b@llz

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#9
Probably character dependent but any1 know which has less lag or better frame data to get behind another character.
 

gritgodx

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#10
Wizzrobe found the SU wavedash. I dunno how effective or helpful it'll be but there's potential.

Anyone know if this works if I have my grab button remapped to something else? Like can I use the button that has been remapped to grab? I assume so.
 

gritgodx

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#14
Does anyone know if the new patch will affect the potential of the wavedash?
I doubt it, it's already not super strong but probably useful situationally. If you can get the frame perfect Z wavedash it's a bit better but still I don't see why they would change it. There's plenty of new dash mechanics which are pretty good.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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#15
I think there's no need to Z buffer to wavedash. I jump with Y and have X set to shield, I roll my thumb from Y to X quick enough and I'm able to do the same wavedash that people use Z buffering for. I play Samus and am able to wavedash properly with her. I believe the trick to wavedashing properly is making sure not to fullhop.

Just something I feel like needs some testing.
Actually, utilising grab to airdodge is at the very heart of what makes this AT good. If you buffer the airdodge with shield it starts you up way higher than you have any right being; I think this was deliberately implemented. If you buffer the airdodge with grab though, for some reason it bypasses this deliberate attempt to nerf wavedashing and it starts you as low down as you can possibly be; to achieve this with the shield button you need to be frame perfect. Comparing a 1 frame window to a 4 frame window is significant, so I think there is a need to use grab.

Anyone know if this works if I have my grab button remapped to something else? Like can I use the button that has been remapped to grab? I assume so.
Yes, it doesn't need to be 'Z', just 'grab'.

I found a weird tech (maybe useless?) when I was messing around in training mode. If you press down when on a platform, you normally drop through, right? Well, if you air dodge down the moment after you drop down, you stay on the platform. I find it easiest to hold down, and as soon as the drop-down animation starts, air dodge down. It doesn't seem to share the landing lag with a normal air dodge to the ground. I have only tried this so far with Link and Mario, and don't know if it works with others (probably will though).

Don't know if it will be useful for anything, but I am putting it here in case it is.

Edit: the one thing I can think of it being is a very quick spot dodge.
Also, if anyone can check if it works with diagonal down dodges. that would be great!

Another edit: I checked the frames in training, and the spot dodging is faster than this. However, this trick gives 4-5 frames of invincibility, while a spot dodge gives about 14-15 frames of invincibility. After inputting an angle in the air dodge, it does move you either forward or backward quickly. You can move backward and still face forwards using this.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/a536km
This is actually really cool, and puts you even lower to the ground than the above.

I have been playing/watching a lot of the game and I have not seen anything that looks like a 2 frame punish like that of Sm4sh. I want to know if my attempts are futile or not.
2 framing is still in.
 
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#16
Actually, utilising grab to airdodge is at the very heart of what makes this AT good. If you buffer the airdodge with shield it starts you up way higher than you have any right being; I think this was deliberately implemented. If you buffer the airdodge with grab though, for some reason it bypasses this deliberate attempt to nerf wavedashing and it starts you as low down as you can possibly be; to achieve this with the shield button you need to be frame perfect. Comparing a 1 frame window to a 4 frame window is significant, so I think there is a need to use grab.


Yes, it doesn't need to be 'Z', just 'grab'.
Ran some tests in the lab, and here's the scoop. Wavedashing with Z (grab) IS a little bit easier than using X (shield) traditionally, but hear me out, friend, before dismissing it so quickly. Story time, kids.

Those of us who main tether characters can still use Y+X (shield) to wavedash consistently. Unless I'm frame perfect, and I'm pretty sure I'm not, I can get pretty consistent results even while using Y+X (shield). Starting from behind the 0 line on the right and facing right, with the back of their heel touching the line, AND measuring to where that same heel reaches TO while wavedashing BACKWARDS [PHEW that's a mouthfull!] the maximum distance I could get Mario to wavedash in training mode was around 23 units, and that is using both methods. However, I was able to achieve 23 units more consistantly using Z (grab). On average, using X (shield) got me around 20 units, while at times reaching 23. Players that use characters that don't have a tether should definitely use the Z (grab) method.

But here's where it gets juicy. I went back with Samus, and since she can't use Z (grab), that only leaves me with X (shield). Using that method, I can pretty consistently get 25 units average, with the maximum being 27 units. That's a pretty beefy wavedash for a character that shouldn't be able to do so, according to the word that's going around. What I'm trying to say here is that this technique is still possible even IF you play a tether character. Try it out for yourself, friend, and spread the word!
 
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#17
Not a specific mechanic or technique, but I've been doing some lab work (specifically, working on a comprehensive Lucario Aura Damage chart). And I just now compared damage in Training mode to damage in a regular 1v1 Stock battle. There's a discrepancy of about 1.055x more damage in a 1v1 match compared to training mode.

Kind of a bummer, as Ive just recently completed the Aura Chart (no longer valid, Stale Moves Off) using the numbers from the training mode. My hope is that there is an exact number for damage between training/1v1 that I can use as a multiplier, so I can (hopefully) just apply the multiplier and adjust my data to be accurate to 1v1 damage. Otherwise, It's back to the lab for another, much more grueling several hours of data collection.

Edit: more testing.
In training mode, Stale Moves On will replicate the damage in a 1v1 vs match exactly. Stale Moves Off will give a consistent, but slightly weaker than Fresh damage.

Still, that's a whole several hours of data collection all done in the wrong way. oops.

Edit Again. after yet more testing.
I've completely overhauled the Lucario Aura Damage Chart, taking into account vs. mode conditions. Damage% to target is from a fresh strike in the Stale Move Cue. I'm thinking about going in and calculating the damage dropoff in the Stale Cue. For now, after crunching the numbers I've found so far, a fully Fresh Strike from the Stale Cue will do about 1.05x Damage% compared to Training Mode's Stale Move's Off setting. Something to keep in mind when doing lab work I suppose.

(For anyone possibly interested, now that the chart is more accurate, I'll soon be testing Stock Differential's effect on Lucario's Aura, 1-2 stocks ahead/behind respectively)
 
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JarodP108H

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#18
Hey there fellow smashers. I have been lately been concerned with the matter of shield dropping in Ultimate. Whenever I try to do it, it never works. I have done it the same way in Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4 and have gotten it to work. I cannot find anything about it elsewhere, and so I am wondering if it still is in the game. I have seen people mention that it is still in the game but, no matter what controller I use, whether it be a GameCube Controller or a Joy Con, it never works. Has this technique changed at all since Smash 4?
 

SaltySparker

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#19
Hey there fellow smashers. I have been lately been concerned with the matter of shield dropping in Ultimate. Whenever I try to do it, it never works. I have done it the same way in Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4 and have gotten it to work. I cannot find anything about it elsewhere, and so I am wondering if it still is in the game. I have seen people mention that it is still in the game but, no matter what controller I use, whether it be a GameCube Controller or a Joy Con, it never works. Has this technique changed at all since Smash 4?
its the same, just more difficult timing
 

cot(θ)

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#24
I heard that smash 4 had 6 frames of input lag built in to the engine. Does Ultimate still have this?
 
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#26
(For anyone possibly interested, now that the chart is more accurate, I'll soon be testing Stock Differential's effect on Lucario's Aura, 1-2 stocks ahead/behind respectively)
Well, I've gone and done it. I've recorded, compared and calculated Lucario's Aura mechanics ad nauseam, including stock differential. Having done that, I've also put it in a (hopefully) easy to comprehend format for reference.

See it here if you're interested.
 

Dark Lady

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#27
I found a weird tech (maybe useless?) when I was messing around in training mode. If you press down when on a platform, you normally drop through, right? Well, if you air dodge down the moment after you drop down, you stay on the platform. I find it easiest to hold down, and as soon as the drop-down animation starts, air dodge down. It doesn't seem to share the landing lag with a normal air dodge to the ground. I have only tried this so far with Link and Mario, and don't know if it works with others (probably will though).

Don't know if it will be useful for anything, but I am putting it here in case it is.

Edit: the one thing I can think of it being is a very quick spot dodge.
Also, if anyone can check if it works with diagonal down dodges. that would be great!

Another edit: I checked the frames in training, and the spot dodging is faster than this. However, this trick gives 4-5 frames of invincibility, while a spot dodge gives about 14-15 frames of invincibility. After inputting an angle in the air dodge, it does move you either forward or backward quickly. You can move backward and still face forwards using this.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/a536km
Heh. You can waveland this. Dip through then slide on the plat.

I think that's actually pretty useful.
 
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GdspdUblkprzdnt

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#28
Wondering if there's any concensus on the subject, a quick google search turned up nothing. When practicing tech or just inputs that are directional, is it better to practice tye same tech in both directions simultabeously or one at a time? Example: Ryu's Shoryuken command to the right first until I've mastered it or practice doing both to the left and the right
 

cot(θ)

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#29
Wondering if there's any concensus on the subject, a quick google search turned up nothing. When practicing tech or just inputs that are directional, is it better to practice tye same tech in both directions simultabeously or one at a time? Example: Ryu's Shoryuken command to the right first until I've mastered it or practice doing both to the left and the right
Alternate one or two times in each direction. If you "master" one side first, it'll make the other side feel weird and uncomfortable, and it takes a while to get over that. Additionally, if one side already feels less comfortable, practice that side twice as much.
 

Rizen

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#30
I heard a commentator say that after airdodging every character falls 100 units so characters with faster fall speeds can act quicker out of AD. Is that true? Is there a thread that explains all the basic mechanics?
 
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Jehtt

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#31
I did some research on using Directional Air Dodges as a recovery option. Every air dodge I tested (a lot) can snap on frame 25 after beginning. This is true regardless of when the Air Dodge's i-frames begin. Most air dodges have 19 frames of invulnerability, and no air dodge has i-frames going into frame 25 as far as I can tell. As such, every air dodge has a punishable period of time before it snaps in addition to the 2-frame if you snap from at ledge height or below. The safest air dodges will be the ones with i-frames closest to frame 25.

Video:
 

A2ZOMG

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#32
I don't know where's the best place to put this, and I was contemplating making a separate thread about this given it revolves around a fundamental core mechanic to Smash Ultimate. The short story is that you can buffer turnaround D-tilt out of foxtrot. The input for this is basically during your foxtrot, you want to hold the control stick down back (more downwards than back) and then input your attack during your foxtrot. If you hold too much diagonally forwards, you get F-tilt, so you have to go lower than simply diagonal down back for this buffer to work. This is obviously different from Smash 4 which only allows you to buffer turnaround F-tilt.

I have been able to do this with C-stick set to tilts as well, but for some reason it seems far more strict on the C-stick, especially if you're trying to do D-tilt as opposed to U-tilt, which might have something to do with D-tilt having a crouch property.
 

Peranmon

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#33
Ehmm im kinda new to smashboards and i dont know if this is new or something but what pacman did can be considered tech?
 
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#35
I'm new to super smash bros and I just bought ultimate on the 26th, I've been grinding pikachu pretty hard because I really enjoy him and I've been able to get to about 2.3m GSP with a 60-70% win rate. However, there is something that I struggle with and that's attack priority. I've noticed that against some characters their moves simply have priority over mine, for example if I head bash into a link swinging his sword his attack hits me and mine doesn't do anything. I've learned of course that this is the case of any character with a sword but I've noticed that some specific abilities from characters that don't have swords also have priority and I'm constantly trying to figure out which ones they are. The problem is that sometimes it seems to be a toss up, both of our attack animations go off, but the enemies counts and not mine, then the exact same scenario with the same abilities happens again, and mine connects his doesn't...Is this a timing thing or something?

I don't understand it and it frustrates me. I've been practicing mostly in the "glorious smasher" lobbies against way better players so that I can learn more, but this seems to be the biggest problem I have against them. I attack at the same time as them but theirs counts and not mine even against other melee characters. So I keep trying to get them to miss an attack first before I can hit and it's very difficult to play that way. Why do these attacks connect against people in quickplay but not against the really good players in arena?
 
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Ajani

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#36
Does anyone know the benefits of short hopping regularly instead of doing Attack + Jump?
 

tobakudan

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#37
Does anyone know the benefits of short hopping regularly instead of doing Attack + Jump?
If you do a fair/bair that way, you get propelled forward/backward. If you want less or no momentum, you need to use the C stick or delay the input of your aerial until after the jump squat animation ends.
 

tobakudan

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#38
Has anyone thoroughly tested how autocancelling works in Ultimate? There seems to be some complex interplay between whether you short hop or full hop and whether you fast fall or not.
 

T-Donor66

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#39
Title says it all. What is my best option to do a reserve bair out of run or dash if I refuse to set a bumper to jump? What is the closest technique i could utilize instead?
 

LucasTizma

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#40
I’ve been trying to practice ledge trumping techniques, and I’m having a really hard time getting instant ledge grabbing from the stage working. I know you’re supposed you basically run off the stage then do a back half circle motion (for a fall fast + back towards the stage). But despite practicing it over and over, I still can’t consistently get the timing. I’ll either stay on stage and do a skid turnaround or just fast fall off stage.

Any tips for how to reliably nail this timing? Is it easier to do out of run vs out of dash? Easier if you’re already at the very edge of the stage before dashing off? Does the half circle motion need to be smooth or timed specifically?

Thanks!
 
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