Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 55 - Cloud - Piece of cake, I'll make first in no time!

Ffamran

The Phantom Link
Moderator
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,072
#1
Welcome to the Cloud matchup discussion.

Falco and Cloud.png

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from Cloud's Frame Data by @-Iceberg and http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/Character_data.htm - search for クラウド.

As of patch 1.1.4.
Move Hit Frames :4falco: :4cloud:
Jab 2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42 4-5, 12-13, 23-24
Dash Attack 8-11 or 12-19 9-13 or 14-18
Ftilt 6-8 9-10
Utilt 5-9, 12-16 6-9
Dtilt 7-9 7-8 or 9-17
Side Smash 17-19 or 20-20 19, 24, 28
Up Smash 7-12, 13-20 15-15 or 16-17 or 18-19
Down Smash 7-9 8-9, 21-23
Nair 3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24 5-15
Fair 10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29 18-19 or 20-25
Bair 4-5 or 6-11 11-13
Uair 7-11 7-9 or 10-25
Dair 16-19 or 20-31 11-13 or 14-42
Grab 8-9 7-8
Dash Grab 10-11 10-11
Pivot Grab 11-12 11-12
 
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NotAnAdmin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 21, 2014
Messages
426
#2
I'm hating this match-up so far.

Cloud's reach is hard to get around, and a smart Cloud player will wait you out and pressure/mind game you with his specials/limits.
He's pretty fast too. I haven't really found any good ways to combat him just yet (not to mention I haven't been playing recently). :(
 

Gamegenie222

Space Pheasant Dragon Tactician
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Gamegenie222
#3
This mu isnt fun and Cloud's dair lasting for days doesn't help either. I'll try to post more on later.
 
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Dark Dire Wolf

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
418
#4
We have to somehow stay within close range of Cloud, but Cloud is faster and has low lag zoning options. Our uair gets beat by his disjointed dair. Really bad mu.
 

BlazingRamen

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Messages
15
#5
The matchup does suck, but we have a fairly strong punish game against him.

I'd just try to get a back throw and pray.
 

Eton

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 3, 2016
Messages
4
#6
Fair and Nair beat his recovery, when he starts juggling with uairs try to hold on to your jump and always recover at the ledge
 

theparadox

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 31, 2015
Messages
13
#7
I say this matchup is pretty even, you want to fight for stage position and keep control of the center stage. Cloud is at his weakest when he is close to the ledge. I like to play a bait and punish game against him, like shoot a couple lasers and force him to block and than jump in a way so I can punish anything he does with fair. Shielding is pretty good against him in general he doesn't have many follow up or kill set ups off his throws. His smashes are pretty punishable so its good to take advantage of that. If you can manage to stay safe out of his range but at that same time be in a good position to punish him accordingly than falco should have no problem winning the match up.
 

Gamegenie222

Space Pheasant Dragon Tactician
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Gamegenie222
#8
From what i remember so far from playing it falco vs cloud both characters do nasty things to each other but falco gets lit up faster and if he's forced to up b that's a free spike via fair or dair or stage spike with bair, nair or LB blade beam or cross slash. Also despite falco having slightly faster buttons up close cloud disjoint hurts a lot also when falco go for juggles he had to be on point otherwise cloud sticks a dair and gets denied kinda like in the villager mu. Also fun fact cloud can slide under the reflector and obviously lasers and like I said before his reflector has a hurtbox on it. Falco also have to beware of falling uair and soft hit dair into FT combos. As for stages Cloud loves alot of stages that Falco likes so far in my experience. Also LB Cross slash is safe on shield with intangibility so if you block it you can roll through the move instead of thinking you can punish it.
 

nedskii-

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 30, 2015
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Long Island, NY
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nedskii
#9
I really need help with this. so salty with how dumb Cloud is(because he is stupid good). Went to a tournament last night..did well but both of my losses were to Cloud. At least one of them went to GF winners side.:/

Edit: also, this guy threw out massive amounts of fwd smash and down smash and they were SOO unpunishable. Even our local king struggled and was sent to loser's by him, but then he ended up winning GF thank goodness. He plays Wario
 
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CHIEf

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 14, 2014
Messages
16
#10
F-smash is punishable on block. You can't just punish with anything you want though. I usually do dash attack or jab depending on the spacing of F-smash.

D-smash isn't worth trying if you shield the second hitbox. I'm not sure if any character can punish that unless it is spaced very poorly.
 

AviaRy

Smash Cadet
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Jan 19, 2016
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Houston, TX
NNID
robobondi
#11
Have you tried reflector (or SHreflector) on Cloud's Fsmash? That should be within range of cloud, it's just not a very good punish :/

Might experiment with other options later, the low end lag on cloud's moves has troubled me also. cloud v Falco usually does not go well for the bird.

Side Note: I've tried punishing Cloud landing with Dair using Falco's Usmash. It trades at best, usually Falco just gets hit.
 
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InfamousRush

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Joined
Mar 22, 2016
Messages
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United States
#12
Have you tried reflector (or SHreflector) on Cloud's Fsmash? That should be within range of cloud, it's just not a very good punish :/

Might experiment with other options later, the low end lag on cloud's moves has troubled me also. cloud v Falco usually does not go well for the bird.

Side Note: I've tried punishing Cloud landing with Dair using Falco's Usmash. It trades at best, usually Falco just gets hit.
Doesn't his reflector have a chance to trip? Maybe a tech chase option? The bird is slow so limited options...

If I notice that the Cloud is dairing a lot, I challenge it with nairing or uairing to the side and slightly above him. It sometimes works since most cloud players do not expect a challenge.
 
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Dingding123

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#13
In this matchup Falco is on the defensive, which is par for the course. However, he has good punishes and can gimp Cloud which is also fairly par for the course.

Cloud has lots of range in the air but less on the ground than the other high-tier sword weebs; there he mostly abuses his Wii Fit Trainer-esque hitboxes which makes rolling through him an especially risky proposition. Falco's role is to punish jump-ins and hit Cloud on the ground before Cloud hits him. Falco can catch Cloud off-guard but don't expect it to be easy. Falco is work incarnate - none of his damage is free!

Running grab is a really good tool OoS or if you think Cloud will be in his shield as Falco always has a throw combo that does at least ~16% to anyone (until roughly 80%) and they will all put Cloud in the air for awhile giving you time to reposition yourself. Falco can out-box Cloud on the ground but Cloud has aerial shenanigans to be wary of, whereas Falco's aerial approaches are more risky. Falco's downsmash is fast, hits both sides of Falco simultaneously and is Cloud and Little Mac's bane since it sends them directly sideways and can gimp them from center stage at high %'s. If you can manage to punish a ledge recovery attempt or a blocked aerial close enough to the ledge with it at lower %s it can lead into a gimp as well.

Obviously a huge factor in the MU is gimping Cloud, which is somewhat ironic because his aerials beat yours in a lot of ways. Another important factor is not getting killed early off the sides. If you can manage to keep him from boxing you in on the sides of the stage you'll be tough to kill and tougher to approach safely; aerial sideB is your best tool here since rolling into Cloud isn't nearly as safe. Standing your ground with tilts or landing a ballsy running grab or fair can give you back center stage as well.

Tl;DR: Don't give Cloud too much space; keep yourself close to center stage. Look for attacks to punish, and look for ways to gimp at higher %s. Your approaches are particularly risky in this MU as you don't want to get knocked above him so use them sparingly.
 
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InfamousRush

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 22, 2016
Messages
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#14
In this matchup Falco is on the defensive, which is par for the course. However, he has good punishes and can gimp Cloud which is also fairly par for the course.

Cloud has lots of range in the air but less on the ground than the other high-tier sword weebs; there he mostly abuses his Wii Fit Trainer-esque hitboxes which makes rolling through him an especially risky proposition. Falco's role is to punish jump-ins and hit Cloud on the ground before Cloud hits him. Falco can catch Cloud off-guard but don't expect it to be easy. Falco is work incarnate - none of his damage is free!

Running grab is a really good tool OoS or if you think Cloud will be in his shield as Falco always has a throw combo that does at least ~16% to anyone (until roughly 80%) and they will all put Cloud in the air for awhile giving you time to reposition yourself. Falco can out-box Cloud on the ground but Cloud has aerial shenanigans to be wary of, whereas Falco's aerial approaches are more risky. Falco's downsmash is fast, hits both sides of Falco simultaneously and is Cloud and Little Mac's bane since it sends them directly sideways and can gimp them from center stage at high %'s. If you can manage to punish a ledge recovery attempt or a blocked aerial close enough to the ledge with it at lower %s it can lead into a gimp as well.

Obviously a huge factor in the MU is gimping Cloud, which is somewhat ironic because his aerials beat yours in a lot of ways. Another important factor is not getting killed early off the sides. If you can manage to keep him from boxing you in on the sides of the stage you'll be tough to kill and tougher to approach safely; aerial sideB is your best tool here since rolling into Cloud isn't nearly as safe. Standing your ground with tilts or landing a ballsy running grab or fair can give you back center stage as well.

Tl;DR: Don't give Cloud too much space; keep yourself close to center stage. Look for attacks to punish, and look for ways to gimp at higher %s. Your approaches are particularly risky in this MU as you don't want to get knocked above him so use them sparingly.

Pardon my lack of knowledge about this match up, but are you referring to an offensive, balanced, defensive, or a general Cloud in your statement?

In short, from what I understand...you want to hold center stage and play a defensive game? However, you need to pressure Cloud enough to maintain your hold on center stage to limit his options?

My next question is, what if you are playing from behind? To where defensive play would hinder your chances of winning?
 
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