Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 44 - Greninja - That ain't Slippy!

[Ffamran]

Welcome to the Greninja matchup discussion.

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from 6IV Naïve - Greninja Frame Data by @Lavani and the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character thread.

As of patch 1.1.4.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|3-6, 10-11, 22-26 (Gentleman)
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|9-12
Ftilt|6-8|10-12
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|9-12
Dtilt|7-9|5-6
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|13-15
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|12-17, 18-18 or 18-20 or 21-21
Down Smash|7-9|16-18
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|12-13 or 14-16
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|16-17
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|5-5, 8-8, 13-16
Uair|7-11|7-22
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|17-19 or 20-45
Grab|8-9|14-15
Dash Grab|10-11|9-10
Pivot Grab|11-12|15-16

 

[SoundChow]

I have a friend who mains greninja so I know the mu pretty well. I'd say it's about even or slightly in favor for greninja. His nair is really good because it leads into fair and up-smash and his dair is pretty good in starting combos. His up-throw leads into u-air and dair (spot dodge read), so jump and spotdodge as soon as you can. His water shuriken is a really good projectile, though it's bad when charged in this matchup b/c of reflector. It's still good at poking if uncharged. My friend tells me that Greninja's grab is just abysmal b/c of its awful frame data, and it looks like his dash attack isn't great either in speed. My tip in this mu is to poke greninja with lasers and reflectors to make it hard for him to approach. Always ledge snap with side-b to the ledge when recovering or you'll be eating a down-smash. Also gimp Greninja's recovery with fair/bair/ledge-trump, though watch out for his side-b to the ledge (shield, then gimp his up-b). Great thread title Ffamran btw.

 

[FullMoon]

+ All dem kill setups
+ Better mobility
+ Disjoints
+ Recovery is one of the best in the game
+ Insane advantaged state, good disadvantaged state
- Can't approach well
- Poor OoS options
- Shurikens can be reflected



+ Better at close quarters
+ Reflector forces Greninja to approach
+ Falco Phantasm is very hard to gimp
- Lighter
- Fire Bird is very vulnerable to Hydro Pump
- Easily juggled

Generally in this MU Falco can have trouble scoring kills on Greninja due to the frog's slippery movement and high speed, while Greninja has plenty of kill confirms on Falco which are made even worse due to how light he is. Expect to be dying at 84% from Up-Smash.

Falco in generally needs to be very afraid of Greninja once he's in the air as he's very easily juggled by him and can't escape very easily thanks to Greninja's superior mobility and ability to catch his landing very easily with his ridic dash grab.

However reflector and lasers make it hard for Greninja to get to Falco and his superior CQC make it hard for Greninja to start something on Falco. Falco also has some good early %s combos that allow him to rack up plenty of damage on Greninja if he's not careful.

Greninja's recovery is very hard for Falco to gimp unless the player is being very predictable about the way he's recovering, while Falco Phantasm can make it difficult for Greninja to edgeguard him. If Greninja does manage to force Falco to use Fire Bird though, you might as well consider yourself dead as you're likely getting soaked which either means you fall to your death or Greninja gets a free attack on you.

In short, Falco wants to keep Greninja at bay and use his superior CQC game to punish Greninja's attempts to approach him. However it's going to be hard for Falco to keep Greninja away for too long as his high mobility can make both the blaster and the reflector be a bit risky since he can get Falco during the end lag of the moves. Once Falco gets puts in a bad position, he's at a world of hurt as Greninja is very merciless when he gets the advantage and it can be pretty rough for Falco to reset to neutral after he's tossed up.

I believe this to be a solid +1 for Greninja. He can break through Falco's attempts to keep him at bay and punish him every time he overcommits to something. Once Greninja gets the advantage Falco struggles to regain ground and coupled with his lightweight status can make his life expectancy that much lower.

This frog is no easy prey.