Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 30 - Bowser - Star Falco Adventures

[Ffamran]

Welcome to the Bowser matchup discussion.

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character thread.

As of patch 1.1.4.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|7-9, 19-21
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|11-14 or 15-20
Ftilt|6-8|10-14
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|11-16
Dtilt|7-9|10-12, 20-22
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|22-23 or 24-27
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|16-23 or 37-37
Down Smash|7-9|10-10, 14-15, (4 more hits), 31-31
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|8-29
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|11-14
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|9-11
Uair|7-11|9-13
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|17-24 or 25-49
Grab|8-9|9-10
Dash Grab|10-11|10-11
Pivot Grab|11-12|11-12

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Hard to say who has advantage. As far as I know, Falco players are even less common than Bowser players. And it's because of this that I don't have a grasp on how Falco would fight Bowser. Forgive my confidence when I say that I don't fear Falco of all characters. He's got poor running and air speed, lasers can't get past shield, his aerials will likely lose to Bowser's superior reach with Fair and Dair, and his moves are not particularly speedy, making it hard to get past our simple jab in the neutral. You don't want to get hit by Bowser's jab in the neutral. Bowser's shellguard on Usmash will beat any aerials Falco tries to fall with as well. Falco probably could edgeguard Bowser's Fortress recovery, which is extremely slow and maintains Bowser as a large target when going for the ledge. However, Falco's recovery is absolutely poop for going deep offstage for such edgeguards and his falling speed doesn't help him survive after missing his attempt, so I wouldn't worry about that.

With little information, I'd mark this as a 55:45 in Bowser's favor. A match that still comes down to player skill, but Bowser has plenty of opportunities to disrespect and ignore the strengths of his opponent. I'd love to hear more from Falco mains.

 

[Cyro]

Bowser can make me feel so pressured, I have to really play patient and try my absolute hardest not to make any mistakes.
Just like most MUs for Falco, I have to play extremely patient. Going aggressive against Bowser is not a good idea. Especially since Falco really doesn't have good approaches at all. If Bowser has the stage control it's a fairly easy time for him to get by, and vice versa for Falco.

However, Bowser being a big target is a great bonus for us. It's fairly easy to rack up percent on him with all the strings capable of being used by Falco. This alone levels up the playing field quite a bit. Falco also does beat Bowser off stage; having stage control is really important. His recovery honestly isn't as bad as it's made out to be. Regardless, it's not like Bowser has a great recovery either.

Overall, I'd say the match-up is pretty much even.
After some thinking I'd have to agree the MU is slightly in Bowser's favor, but to the point where it's hardly noticeable.

 

[Metamoonstar]

Falco needs to capitalize on every punish he can possibly get. Bowser's hits HURT! Like Cyro said though, it's easy to rack up percent if we can get in. We need to try and make sure Bowser doesn't live to long percents though, that rage can kill us a lot faster that we expect it to.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Be wary of Jab traps Falco players. And Dash Slash followups if customs are on.

 

[Gamegenie222]

That and Fortress OOS and like you said jab traps since jab 1 is +7 on hit and allows Bowser to recover before you do. Also watch Bowser when he does his Fair or Bair cause he has a autocancel window on both of those moves when doing the moves rising outta a short hop the Bowser can do this to goat you so he can punish you as well also don't roll like a idiot cause Bowser loves it and especially don't roll into Bowser he really loves that. Also ironically enough I play a little Bowser as a secondary even though I'm normally a Falco player to have a fatty on my character list and to deal with roll spammers.

 

[Thinktron]

So falco is a new character now, and is now very dominant against heavyweights.

How do people see this matchup now
i think it just tips into falco's favor

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Falco's buffs definitely help in this matchup. Previously, if you Up Threw up aired bowser at kill percents, he could airdodge and hit you with his own up air, ending falco's stock at extremely early percents. However, due to the frame data buffs Falco got to his Up air, he can frame trap bowser into nair (and maybe bair, I'm not sure). Falco's new Nair also helps in this Matchup as well, since it gives him another tool in the neutral, edgeguarding option, and combo tool. Falco can literally neutral air bowser across final destination, dealing around 40% to bowser.

Not sure what a good MU ratio for this MU would be since I'm not a good player, but I think the buffs are enough to make it at the very least in Falco's favor.

 

[Gamegenie222]

IDK about the MU now but the Falco buffs do help just try to end Bowser early otherwise your gonna hate your life if you get dropkicked, side b or down b or d tilt around the edge.

 

[Ffamran]

Rush Hour Smash uploaded grand finals of Keitaro's Falco and Cloud vs Chaos's Bowser: https://youtu.be/bXjOtL1Qow0. This really shows how Bowser's 1.1.3 U-throw affects his MUs. In this case, being able to setup his early kills and do a crapton of damage.

While it's not a good idea to just conclude off of a single set, Falco did struggle against Bowser and now, it's getting worse. This was what? A 40:60 to 30:70 MU for Falco before the patch? Definitely 30:70 now when Bowser's punishes are much harder and more reliable than Falco's. Coupled with Falco's preexisting issues of being unable to hang back to zone and Falco basically fighting a swordsman - disjoints are one issue Falco always had and without mobility like Fox or the ability to zone, it's much worse - because of Bowser's I-frames on most of his moves meaning Falco cannot challenge Bowser's close combat range. Oh, and thanks to his slow run speed, Falco can't run away from Bowser, especially his Flying Fortress if Bowser starts sliding into him. He'll need to shield all the hits or reactively jump.

 

[Cyro]

Rush Hour Smash uploaded grand finals of Keitaro's Falco and Cloud vs Chaos's Bowser: https://youtu.be/bXjOtL1Qow0. This really shows how Bowser's 1.1.3 U-throw affects his MUs. In this case, being able to setup his early kills and do a crapton of damage.

While it's not a good idea to just conclude off of a single set, Falco did struggle against Bowser and now, it's getting worse. This was what? A 40:60 to 30:70 MU for Falco before the patch? Definitely 30:70 now when Bowser's punishes are much harder and more reliable than Falco's. Coupled with Falco's preexisting issues of being unable to hang back to zone and Falco basically fighting a swordsman - disjoints are one issue Falco always had and without mobility like Fox or the ability to zone, it's much worse - because of Bowser's I-frames on most of his moves meaning Falco cannot challenge Bowser's close combat range. Oh, and thanks to his slow run speed, Falco can't run away from Bowser, especially his Flying Fortress if Bowser starts sliding into him. He'll need to shield all the hits or reactively jump.

I ended up believing the MU was heavily in Falco's favor pre-patch after I went a little more in depth with it.
Falco with stage control is an absolute nightmare or Bowser; he can't land, he can't recover.

It would seem as if the MU is in Bowser's favor post-patch. But I do want everyone to take into account that Bowser's Uthrow kill confirms are not guaranteed and they have to read your DI. Now, as long as you aren't too predictable it should not be much of a problem, right? Also, if you do on some rare occasion happen to live passed 130% against him, uthrow doesn't combo into anything.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I saw that set. And speaking as a Bowser main, this MU was at worst even for you guys before the patch, so keep your heads on. Keitaro and everybody else that faced Chaos tonight hadn't studied this MU, but Chaos knew a lot about what to do with Falco. Falco made three very large mistakes in his matches. Firstly, finishing the jab combo when Bowser isn't caught in it at all. Come on, do you guys really do this compulsively? And getting Bowsercided while having a 70% damage advantage shouldn't happen. If you fight against Bowser's intended direction in this scenario, he will have almost no control over the move. And the short hop side Bs were woefully mispaced.

If you've got questions about how Bowser works, I'm here. Even with Falco having some optimal stats for the Uthrow combos, I'm not convinced this MU is too much like the sets we see here.