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Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 28 - Toon Link - Wind Wakers

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
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Aug 25, 2014
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Welcome to the Toon Link matchup discussion.

Falco and Toon Link.png

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character thread.

As of patch 1.1.4.
Move Hit Frames|:4falco:|:4tlink:
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|6-7, 13-14, 21-25
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|9-11
Ftilt|6-8|9-13
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|8-12
Dtilt|7-9|9-10
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|15-17, 32-34
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|11-17
Down Smash|7-9|9-10, 17-18
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|6-7, 13-14
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|14-15
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|7-9
Uair|7-11|11-13 or 14-40
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|17-25 or 26-64
Zair|N/A|11-20
Grab|8-9|12-18
Dash Grab|10-11|14-20
Pivot Grab|11-12|15-21
 
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SoundChow

Smash Apprentice
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86
Location
PA
I have a lot of experience playing as Toon Link, and I think Falco definitely takes this matchup, for two main reasons.

1.He's a better up close fighter
He has a quicker jab/grab, auto-cancelling sh aerials, and less situational kill options. Tink has slow attacks with high endlag, especially his aerials (besides nair), plus no good Oos options besides bomb throw and sometimes bair. Don't get backthrown near the ledge.

2.His reflector reduces projectile spam
This is probably the most important advantage. While Falco's reflector won't stop angled boomerangs, upward thrown bombs, or high shot arrows, it significantly discourages bomb throw follow-ups. Bomb to up-smash/fair/bair are bread and butter damage-racking and kill options. Something to keep in mind is that a good Tink will short hop, bait out a reflector, and then go for zair which auto-cancels and can lead to grab.

I think the Tink boards will heavily disagree with me that Falco's reflector makes their projectiles less effective. There are a lot of ways to fake out projectiles, and some extremely advanced ones like IZAC, but I personally don't feel like his projectiles, most notably bombs, are that viable in this matchup.
 

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
Toon Link's short, though, which means Falco can't abuse his hurtbox like Bowser, Ike, or Link. Toon Link being fast and having a short dash makes his ground movement and options good. Foxtrot to (pivot) Ftilt or Dash Attack are options where Toon Link can and will fake you out. For a small guy, his B-throw is powerful, but not as insane as Sonic's pre-patch B-throw or Ness's B-throw. He probably won't be able to catch you as often as those two, but it's something to be aware of. His Side Smash is heavily disjointed; I remember Trevonte hitting DSS's Ness with Side Smash and Ness was caught above the blade aka thin air. I don't remember if it was patched out since Toon Link's wasn't that bad, but I think Toon Link can (still) Jab Cancel which considering how his Down Smash works, it's a strong tool.

The main issue which is pretty much Falco's main issue is mobility. Toon Link's much faster than Falco on foot and he's decently quick in the air as well. Toon Link can run circles around Falco and wall him out with projectiles and baiting Reflector from Falco is much easier for him than Link since Toon Link can close the distance much faster. What goes against Toon Link is he's not that heavy and his recovery while stronger is still linear like Link even though he can somewhat bomb jump and bomb to underside stage tech to recover, it's not something where he can recover in a million ways like Meta Knight, but that doesn't mean he's a chump in off-stage. All of his attacks are disjointed meaning if Falco screws up, he's going to eat something from Toon Link and it ain't gonna be tasty like a panini or Toon Link's Grandma's Elixir Soup.

Toon Link's not that fast either when it comes to attacking, but he's not slow either. His RAR Bair is something to be feared as it's disjointed, the same speed as Ike's Bair (which is faster than Fox's Bair), and it's a decent kill move. Nair and Bair would be something to be aware of when Toon Link's in the air and heading towards you. His Dair isn't exactly amazing, especially spammed, but if he's above the screen and you can't see him, it's not worth it to challenge under him. I don't think it's as horizontally disjointed like Link's, but it's still an option for him to use and cover below him. There's also his Zair which I don't really know much about as there aren't a lot of Toon Links I know other than Zan, Trevonte, and A Thug.

Oh, and because of Falco's fast fall speed, Toon Link like pretty much everyone with an Utilt or Up Smash, can juggle him early on. Just don't get caught in it.

The main thing Falco wants to do is stay close to Toon Link, abuse his faster moves and just pressure him. From afar, it's best to take it slow and find an opening instead of rushing in or spamming Reflector which should be a red light for the Toon Link to figure out the pattern and bait a Reflector. Using Toon Link's Bomb and other projectiles should be considered as well. I mean, why not? Up close, Toon Link's fastest option would be Jab which Falco beats by Jab, Utilt, default Reflector, and clanks with Ftilt. His tilts, Smashes, and grab would all be outsped by Falco's Dtilt and Down Smash along with clanking with Up Smash and Dash Attack if Toon Link uses Utilt.

I don't know much about Toon Link's customs, so I won't say anything other than his Fire Arrow has a lingering hitbox and his Piercing Arrow functions like Falco's Blaster, but faster and chargeable.
 

Metamoonstar

Smash Rookie
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Sep 27, 2014
Messages
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I got wrecked by a Toon Link earlier. I'll definitely be keeping my eye on this thread.
 

gameplayzero

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Its in toon link's favor in my opinion (but I hate the character in general). As already mentioned, shorter characters are a pain for falco to deal with. Our bair pokes and kills are even harder to land on grounded opponents unless its a hard read. A good toon link isn't going to allow any breathing room with all of the items at his disposal. The reflector I feel is way too slow in this match up to even be worthwhile. Up air kills are rather dangerous thanks to the dair if TL and punishing it on the ground is not going to happen thanks to the wind box. Try to bait it out or do a ridiculously spaced bair or fair instead. Too risky. Be careful with recovering. Especially on Battlefield. An on stage dair is a GG no Re for us.

Ffram pretty much covered everything. You just need to play extremely patient and wait for the right moment to get in past his projectiles and pull a maywheater. Hug him as much as you can and never be impatient. One hit from a bomb or an item can lead to your death if you are careless. I find it bs that a character does his best running away throwing items and on top of that getting kill confirms from camping, but the sacrifices us falco's have to deal with.
 
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Snipnigth

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Ffamran basicaly explained this matchup really well, to add a bit more to this MU, never try to land on top of toon link and if he is juggling you just try and go for the edge, its really hard to get a safe landing even if you side b special he is fast enough to catch up with you and upsmash you, everytime you see yourself on top of him on stage go for the edge.

Also be carefull with his bombs he can bomb then fair you at kill%, i think the bomb start sending you too far away for him to combo of like at 110%.

on low % he can z-air you into grab, it is also a true combo.

up tilt to up air on high % are true combos.

he has so many set ups and hit confirms on us is ridiculous, meanwhile its hard for us to even get our basic combos on him because he is so floaty and mobile on the air, because of this is also really hard to catch him of guard because he con go in bair or nair use and before landing he can move away from us and even jump after nair. I think the best ways to catch him of guard is when he is pulling out a bomb, his dair is also verry punishable if he misses.

Things i think you should evade at all cost are his bombs, uptilts and grabs.

i didint think this matchup was so hard until i fought a new friend that mains t link, as Ffamran said , he ran circles around me thx to all his mobility, it was almost impossible to get a safe lading on stage, and even with reflector he is so fast he can bait projectiles and punish my reflectors ending lag.

i think this matchup is in favor of tlink by a lot :(

I have a lot of experience playing as Toon Link, and I think Falco definitely takes this matchup, for two main reasons.

1.He's a better up close fighter
He has a quicker jab/grab, auto-cancelling sh aerials, and less situational kill options. Tink has slow attacks with high endlag, especially his aerials (besides nair), plus no good Oos options besides bomb throw and sometimes bair. Don't get backthrown near the ledge.
i thought the same but now that i see the frame data i think is debatable, he has a bit longer atacks and obviously more priority since he has a sword, but now that i see the frame data, most of our moves are faster than his.
 
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SoundChow

Smash Apprentice
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Nov 29, 2014
Messages
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Ffamran basicaly explained this matchup really well, to add a bit more to this MU, never try to land on top of toon link and if he is juggling you just try and go for the edge, its really hard to get a safe landing even if you side b special he is fast enough to catch up with you and upsmash you, everytime you see yourself on top of him on stage go for the edge.

Also be carefull with his bombs he can bomb then fair you at kill%, i think the bomb start sending you too far away for him to combo of like at 110%.

on low % he can z-air you into grab, it is also a true combo.

up tilt to up air on high % are true combos.

he has so many set ups and hit confirms on us is ridiculous, meanwhile its hard for us to even get our basic combos on him because he is so floaty and mobile on the air, because of this is also really hard to catch him of guard because he con go in bair or nair use and before landing he can move away from us and even jump after nair. I think the best ways to catch him of guard is when he is pulling out a bomb, his dair is also verry punishable if he misses.

Things i think you should evade at all cost are his bombs, uptilts and grabs.

i didint think this matchup was so hard until i fought a new friend that mains t link, as Ffamran said , he ran circles around me thx to all his mobility, it was almost impossible to get a safe lading on stage, and even with reflector he is so fast he can bait projectiles and punish my reflectors ending lag.

i think this matchup is in favor of tlink by a lot :(


i thought the same but now that i see the frame data i think is debatable, he has a bit longer atacks and obviously more priority since he has a sword, but now that i see the frame data, most of our moves are faster than his.
I think I should go a little more in-depth on this matchup and give some advice fighting against Tink. I forgot to mention before that with patch 1.06, hylian shield can now guard Tink against Falco's lasers if he stands still. Lasers will still hit Tink while he's in the air or performing another move such as a boomerang throw. Lasers aren't as good in this matchup as they were pre-patch 1.06. Tink is bad at killing without his projectiles because his damage/kill set ups rely on Tink's bomb. In a matchup against a character without a projectile/reflector, Tink can just run/jump away from the opponent and create a wall of boomerangs, arrows, bombs, and zairs, leading to kills with fair and back-throw. Tink has to really change up his game plan against characters with long lasting reflectors such as Falco and Palutena.

Now I'll tell you how to beat Tink. Play patiently, you will get bombarded with projectiles for every mistake you make. Matches against Toon link can often go to time. Power shield all of his projectiles and use your reflector wisely. Be wary of his pivot/normal tether grab, which has a killing back throw and a down-throw which can lead to u-air. Don't let him bait you into going for a reflector and then punishing the endlag with a zair or boomerang. A good way to use your reflector is to do it after a retreating short hop when you see him shorthopping and anticipating a zair or angled boomerang. Tink is at a disadvantaged state in the air so string fairs and u-airs against him. Always go for gimps against Tink because of his predictable recovery. When you're up-close with toon link go for jabs, tilts, sh-uairs, and grabs. I'd say toon link has even weaker range than Falco in terms of jabs and tilts, and definitely slower frame data. Something to note is that you can get a down-throw bair on toon link at 0%. I really don't know what else to say besides stay close to Toon Link and don't let him set up a wall of projectiles. I played a good Toon Link on anther's ladder the other day and I noticed that this matchup isn't as one-sided as I thought it was. I'd say it's at least 55-45 in Falco's favor though.
 

gameplayzero

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I think I should go a little more in-depth on this matchup and give some advice fighting against Tink. I forgot to mention before that with patch 1.06, hylian shield can now guard Tink against Falco's lasers if he stands still. Lasers will still hit Tink while he's in the air or performing another move such as a boomerang throw. Lasers aren't as good in this matchup as they were pre-patch 1.06. Tink is bad at killing without his projectiles because his damage/kill set ups rely on Tink's bomb. In a matchup against a character without a projectile/reflector, Tink can just run/jump away from the opponent and create a wall of boomerangs, arrows, bombs, and zairs, leading to kills with fair and back-throw. Tink has to really change up his game plan against characters with long lasting reflectors such as Falco and Palutena.

Now I'll tell you how to beat Tink. Play patiently, you will get bombarded with projectiles for every mistake you make. Matches against Toon link can often go to time. Power shield all of his projectiles and use your reflector wisely. Be wary of his pivot/normal tether grab, which has a killing back throw and a down-throw which can lead to u-air. Don't let him bait you into going for a reflector and then punishing the endlag with a zair or boomerang. A good way to use your reflector is to do it after a retreating short hop when you see him shorthopping and anticipating a zair or angled boomerang. Tink is at a disadvantaged state in the air so string fairs and u-airs against him. Always go for gimps against Tink because of his predictable recovery. When you're up-close with toon link go for jabs, tilts, sh-uairs, and grabs. I'd say toon link has even weaker range than Falco in terms of jabs and tilts, and definitely slower frame data. Something to note is that you can get a down-throw bair on toon link at 0%. I really don't know what else to say besides stay close to Toon Link and don't let him set up a wall of projectiles. I played a good Toon Link on anther's ladder the other day and I noticed that this matchup isn't as one-sided as I thought it was. I'd say it's at least 55-45 in Falco's favor though.
I still think T link has the advantage slightly , but your reasoning is very sound for how to deal with the match up. You can't stress enough how important it is to gimp the link's off stage. Their recovery is just awful in terms of safety. I still don't think punishing them with an up air is a good decision unless its from an up throw and you KNOW for sure that that your both or one of your jumps are high enough to pull of an up air before the hitstun of the move ends. Otherwise you get just get daired right in the face. Get too greedy and do that at the top of the blast zone and say GGs.
 

meleebrawler

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I still think T link has the advantage slightly , but your reasoning is very sound for how to deal with the match up. You can't stress enough how important it is to gimp the link's off stage. Their recovery is just awful in terms of safety. I still don't think punishing them with an up air is a good decision unless its from an up throw and you KNOW for sure that that your both or one of your jumps are high enough to pull of an up air before the hitstun of the move ends. Otherwise you get just get daired right in the face. Get too greedy and do that at the top of the blast zone and say GGs.
How does dair kill near the top of the screen when it spikes?
 

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
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How does dair kill near the top of the screen when it spikes?
Late hitbox probably. The clean hit, the 17-25 hitbox is the one that spikes, but if Toon Link's high enough and he drops down, then the 26-64 will probably connect and kill you instead of spiking you. Link's is the same, the first initial hitbox spikes while the rest pogos and hits hard. This is pretty much the same for all characters with spikes except for Zelda and Rosalina who have soft spikes for their late hits.

ZSS, Sheik, Sonic, Toon Link, Bowser, Ganondorf, Yoshi, and even Link are dangerous if you whiff near the ceiling or you don't know where and what they're doing near the ceiling. Kato abuses that with Bowser Bomb where he just bursts through the ceiling and crushes you as you're trying to follow up. The funny thing is that they're probably trying to cover their landing that trying to go for a clutch kill.
 
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gameplayzero

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Late hitbox probably. The clean hit, the 17-25 hitbox is the one that spikes, but if Toon Link's high enough and he drops down, then the 26-64 will probably connect and kill you instead of spiking you. Link's is the same, the first initial hitbox spikes while the rest pogos and hits hard. This is pretty much the same for all characters with spikes except for Zelda and Rosalina who have soft spikes for their late hits.

ZSS, Sheik, Sonic, Toon Link, Bowser, Ganondorf, Yoshi, and even Link are dangerous if you whiff near the ceiling or you don't know where and what they're doing near the ceiling. Kato abuses that with Bowser Bomb where he just bursts through the ceiling and crushes you as you're trying to follow up. The funny thing is that they're probably trying to cover their landing that trying to go for a clutch kill.
so I wasn't crazy! Thank you. I knew I had that happen before.
 

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
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Yo, @ Snipnigth Snipnigth , is this the Toon Link in your scene that gives you trouble? The video was just uploaded about 9 hours ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff9ZzKZAYD4.

Yeah... Toon Link is among the faster swordsmen like Marth, Lucina, Pit, Dark Pit, and Meta Knight. Disjoints really give Falco issues which is made worse if they're fast disjoints.
 

Snipnigth

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Yo, @ Snipnigth Snipnigth , is this the Toon Link in your scene that gives you trouble? The video was just uploaded about 9 hours ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff9ZzKZAYD4.

Yeah... Toon Link is among the faster swordsmen like Marth, Lucina, Pit, Dark Pit, and Meta Knight. Disjoints really give Falco issues which is made worse if they're fast disjoints.
lol yes i saw this yesterday forgot to post it here, after seeing the video i think i could have done better but i was getting really frustrated, if a bomb gets in its a sure fair or up air really annoying fighting around this, plus he been so fast on ground and air makes it really hard to chase or land...
 
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