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Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 27 - Dr. Mario - License to Kick Butt

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
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Welcome to the Dr. Mario matchup discussion. The original thread, SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 01 - Dr. Mario/Mario, had the two together and I believe that would be very confusing since Mario and Dr. Mario don't play like each other in Melee and SSB4. So, this will be a "redo" and as a way to make it more focused. Similarly, in the future, Pit & Dark Pit and Marth & Lucina will have their own threads. Be sure to check out the original thread since the information, while dated, may still be useful and relevant today.​

Falco and The Doctor.png

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from Prescriptions Papers: Doc's Moveset Data by @Macchiato and the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character threads.

As of patch 1.1.4.
Move Hit Frames|:4falco:|:4drmario:
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|2-3, 11-12, 25-26
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|6-9 or 10-25
Ftilt|6-8|5-7
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|5-11
Dtilt|7-9|5-7
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|15-17
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|9-13
Down Smash|7-9|5-6 or 14-14
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|3-10 or 11-27
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|16-16 or 17-19 or 20-21
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|6-8 or 9-13
Uair|7-11|4-8
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|11-27
Grab|8-9|6-7
Dash Grab|10-11|8-9
Pivot Grab|11-12|9-10
 
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I play with Doc every-so-often, but never against another Falco.

Assuming default meta, Doc's recovery is absolutely awful past a certain distance. He is greatly limited in how much he's allowed to vary his recovery options, and for the most part he'll either immediately up-B close to ledge, double jump to up-B from a middle distance, or tornado to double jump to up-B. Not many options. If he tornados too close, dair. If you can, do everything to disrupt his recovery. Even one laser can be enough to just end his offstage life. It's saddening.

Be very careful attacking his shield, Doc has a very good OoS option in up-B. Default up-B is strong and a kill move above 120%, and the Ol' One-Two is even worse if he gets you with the second hit. He can combo off throws, though not as well as Mario. Off dthrow he can get uair and follow up based on what you do. His pills are good spacing tools, but if he's spamming from afar don't be afraid to reflect them to close the gap. Similarly, be smart with your lasers because he can just cape them back, but more than likely Doc will just try to get past them to get to you.

Doc hits hard, his fsmash kills early if it hits. His fair is signature and got buffed in 1.0.6 if I recall correctly. His jab is a good tool to get you out of his face quick, and it comes out as quick as our jab. I don't know if we can outrange his ftilt, or his grab. The game plan here should be to get him offstage and keep him off. His nair has the strongest hitbox come out at the end, so Doc will throw it out earlier than a Mario would. His bair sends people flying, uair is a juggling tool and dair is just there to throw out hitboxes below Doc as far as I'm concerned.

Regarding customs, Doc has a rising tornado custom that greatly enhances his vertical recovery and an up-B that gives him the range of a Mario up-B in exchange for not dealing any damage. He has the same cape options as Mario, as well as pill options to fireball. Fast pills (Megavitamins?) are basically Falco lasers, and give him a distant jab reset so don't miss your techs. Going back to tornado customs, if he's using the rising tornado be wary of it. It has windboxes for most of the animation and a long-lasting, powerful hitbox at the end. Your only hope of punishing it is by waiting for it to end or hitting him with something like lasers and reflector.

So, what's our gameplan here? I already said keep him off-stage, but how will we do that? Perhaps focus on landing grabs. Falco has good horizontal launching options for most of his attacks, which is good. What's our recommended customs for this? Perhaps keep default laser, Phantasm, and reflector and swap Fire Bird for Fast to give us another tool in the neutral. We're not that fast, but neither is Doc and he's not as mobile in the air.

I welcome discussion from actual Doc mains and Falco mains with experience on this.
 

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
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Doc's Side Smash whiffs at point blank for some reason and I don't think it's been fixed if that's how it was intended to work. This might only work on "skinnier" characters like Falco as you probably can't do this with DK's giant hurtbox. Not a really big thing, but if that happens, you could punish it or feel relieved you didn't die or get hit by it. His Down Smash is another kill move - it's basically like Brawl Wolf's - while Up Smash was changed in patch 1.0.6 (3DS) / 1.0.3 (Wii U) so that it knocks people at a lower angle than Mario and Luigi's Up Smashes. The Doc's probably going to kill at the sides more with his Smashes.

Doc's Tornado shouldn't be challenged even when it's grounded, but since Falco has access to Blaster and his Reflector is ranged, he can interrupt it, but it's not going to be huge deal since the Doc can't slide as far with it like Luigi on the ground.

Doc's Super Jump Punch is also a strong stage spike like Marth and Lucina's Dolphin Slash. So Falco should be careful about edgeguarding while in front of him or near the stage.
 
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Oh yeah, I definitely stage spike people with up-B sometimes. Tons of fun. Interesting to hear fsmash whiffs at point blank, though I've never been in a situation where the opponent lets me hit them point blank. I wonder if it's a viable strategy for Falco to play defensive with lasers and bait Doc?

Also, maybe I should switch my lexicon so it's more official like Ffamran. >.>
 

Kisatamura

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Falco is a common MU in my experience, but it's one of my favorite matches since the two characters are so honest.

While Doc is often recommended to play defensively, some Docs will not be so kind and will go offensive, taking advantage of Falco's space animal physics. That being said, Falco and Doc at neutral is pretty shifty for me. Falco can bully Doc with smart use of the Reflector, and both characters have access to really good bairs. Doc's short hop height is lower compared to Falco's, so I think Falco should pay attention to bair and just try to block and punish it.

Upclose I think Doc holds the advantage. His ground attacks are all really quick, dtilt can lead to grab resets and ftilt is a "get off me" tool. Falco does have pretty quick attacks as well, but I think Falcos should aim for grabs to set Doc into the air, where his actions become more limited as he can only Tornado to stall for a bit, or use reverse pills.

In my opinion the two most important moves that you Falcos should look out for are Doc's Dr. Tornado, and the UpB. Tornado has massive priority, both on the ground and in the air, enough to serve as an edgeguard that can outprioritize Falco's UpB. While Tornado is vulnerable to SideB, Tornado can kill really early if it hits offstage near the edge, so just watch out for the Docs that use Tornado to edgeguard. UpB as stated is a great OOS option, though it's incredibly unsafe on block. Also, don't overuse SideB to recover, or else Doc can use fair as a read to beat it.

Recovery wise, Doc sucks but some Docs will use Tornado to recover high. Either use semi-spike moves like DSmash, or shoot lasers to make it really difficult to recover. Falco can jump high enough, but if Doc has to recover low and uses the Tornado, he's free. Just watch out for airdodges and the usual.

If we're going customs, I believe most of what's been said about the Soaring Tornado (The recovery tornado) has already been stated, alongside Ol' One Two and the Fast Capsule. Soaring Tornado is much better at edgeguarding than the regular DownB, Ol' One Two gives Doc a hoo-hah, and Fast Capsule is essentially your blaster.

I love this MU, so I believe it's even.
 
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BlueBirdE

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Adding my 2 cents:Falco can really abuse docs recovery with his fair,dair, and nair. Ive had times where the fair traded with doc tornado despite the priority. As for edgeguard falco is susceptible to a doc tornado off stage, but its not as effect for gimping since falco can launch towards the stage and tech while doc if hes hit and dragged down likely wont make it back. There was times i hit a fair on doc towards the stage after he used his 2nd jump, teched beneath sv and still couldnt make it.
Falco can rly keep doc on the run too especially on a stage like town and city.
Docs buttons are definitely better up close. Ive eaten 50% from multiple doc up bs because i was in a rapid jab sequence even when i tried to end it asap so keep a close eye on docs position when you begin the jabs. With that said falco should not stay in that space or he will be eating a ton of damage and possibly the stock.
IMO on stage its even. It can be 50/50 or slightly an advantage for either character depending the stage. Off stage Falco wins convincingly for me
 
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Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
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This is my most practiced mu; my brother is a doc main.

Overall, I think Doc is an incredibly underrated character, for the simple reason that Mario is better than him. You you want to have an easier time, use Mario. Because of this, Doc is generally thought of as a bad character, when in reality, he's very good, but just worse than Mario.

In short, I think the mu is either even, or 60:40 Doc's favor. Doc has an easier time in neutral, has better combos, and great kill options. Our ability to force him offstage and edgeguard brings us back into the mu, though.

To go into more detail:

1. Doc's UpB is dumb. Like, really, really dumb. It's a 3 frame kill move that can be used in the air and has a huge hitbox. If you jab him with any sort of spacing and don't have sufficient rage, he can break your rapid jab (or jab cancel) with this move, usually doing 26% and sending you offstage. I've lost many a winning position from hitting with jab, being sent offstage with UpB, and being edgeugarded. It's pretty disgusting. Jab has to be used up close, or with rage. Otherwise, spacing with jab is incredibly hard here. Which is a shame, because our jab is normally great.

2. Doc wins in neutral. His projectile is great, he can throw it from a full hop or shorthop from a platform, and follow up, allowing an approach. Nair will beat this inconsistently; you have to carefully time a nair hitbox to beat the pil and continue towards doc; uair is normally better. Doc's bair hits hard oos and can never (NEVER) be punished if he chooses to retreat while using it. This actually gives Doc another advantage in the mu over Mario, who can be punished for throwing out bairs without thinking. Uair can only be punished if he lands with it. Jabs clank and are the same speed, he can use dtilt to go under your jab, though. Utilt combos absurdly well at low percent and is very hard to punish on shield, although it can be punished on powershield. He also has large dash grab range that can grab you at the peak of your short hop. All these things make life hard for us. Falco should be using lots and lots of dtilt, which is safe on shield, and almost safe on whiff. Jab is generally unsafe for reasons mentioned earlier. Falco should approach with dash --> tomahawk mostly, as spaced retreating fair/bair are completely safe. Lasers help break him momentum, but his projectile and reflector are better than ours, so use them sparingly. Doc's usmash is almost never punishable on shield/whiff (it has to be the worst possible spacing by him), only the front hit of dsmash is punishable, and his fsmash is only punishable on shield if misspaced. His fsmash also retreats before the hitbox comes out, making it an incredibly safe punish.

3. Falco has good follow ups, but has to be careful. Due to Doc's floatiness, fast aerials and aerial mobility, we don't combo him well, so you need to be sure of your confirms. Overshooting normally leads to a heavy punish in his favor, as Falco is combo food. Dtilt combos well into grab and fair at low percents (I recommend fair in most scenarios over nair, as nair trades with Doc's nair [3 frame aerial], which fair beats it from the front). Use this to try and get him offstage. Dthrow to dash attack or fair is best until about 40% imo, as these allow for the best followups. Dthrow to usmash allows him to get away, so it's worse in the long run. Uthrow should be used after 40% as it will lead to one uair (rarely more), unless he's near the edge, in which case you should throw him off. Uair frame traps well, but chasing is hard as his aerial mobilioty is faster than our ground mobility. We can pressure and often force an airdodge, but he gets away better than most. If Doc grabs you around 70% and lacks rage, he can true combo you into a fair, regardless of DI. At higher percents (90%ish) you can airdodge his fair, but get frame trapped into a dsmash unless you DI offstage. If Doc has too much rage, or your damage is too high, you can jump away.

4. Doc wins the air game. He moves in and out much better than us, his bair/uair cleanly beat anything but bair (which trades) and have almost no lag. His nair trades with ours, and can beat fair from some angles. He doesn't have a great answer to uair, but can airdodge through and away. Our bair will miss him oos if he's dashing or landing with an aerial; he can kill us for this. His uair strings together ridiculously well, so you really don't want to get caught out by one of those. His bair isn't safe on hit at zero, we can punish with a dash attack on hit. Also worth mentioning that it is virtually impossible to punish Doc's dash attack with a bair. His profile during the attack is so close to the ground, I feel the sweetspot punish is frame perfect in this scenario. Really hard.

5. Both characters can edgeguard each other really well. If falco is offstage, and Doc is standing near the ledge, falco becomes unable to use SideB as it may get reflected, essentially ending falco's stock. Instead, using Side B above/below the ledge and recovering with jump + upB is often preferred. Due to this threat, Falco will be recovering low really often in this MU, you need to be really, really proficient at teching. Tech --> wall jump --> phantasm onstage should get you onstage before Doc in almost every scenario, giving you stage control. Teching can be difficult though, Doc's sweetspot on his upB and bair has a very different tech timing to his sourspot on those moves, so you have to react to the hitstun; this is hard but doable. He can spike you if he spaces his tornado properly, but this is only feasible if falco is forced to recover directly vertical (on a stage like lylat). Doc has lots of trouble recovering too, however, fair significantly limits his recover options. It covers airdodges well, and the front hitbox will trade with upB (once again, you need to tech) and will spike him. If he gets horizontally close to the ledge, such that his upB can challenge fair from below (upB will win), you should dair instead; the sourspot will kill anyway.

I think that's most of what I wanted to say. Doc is much better than he's given credit for; if we couldn't edgeguard him, we'd lose this mu real bad.
 

A2ZOMG

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I agree with most of the above detailed analysis, though up angled Ftilt is heavily underrated vs the Marios. Doing single Jabs at max range and Jab canceling is also good since Doc isn't generally punishing a followup Dtilt on block.
 
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BlueBirdE

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Didn't know about bair being safe on shield. Whats the difference between doc and marios bair that makes marios not as safe? What about dropping shield to laser or reflector? Im not sure if that would hit just a thought and itd probably wouldnt be a good idea anyway with the endlag. For neutral are you playing the chase me style or going for a mid range game?
Also how is the up angled ftilt good for the marios? What have you been using the move for?
 

A2ZOMG

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Didn't know about bair being safe on shield. Whats the difference between doc and marios bair that makes marios not as safe? What about dropping shield to laser or reflector? Im not sure if that would hit just a thought and itd probably wouldnt be a good idea anyway with the endlag. For neutral are you playing the chase me style or going for a mid range game?
Also how is the up angled ftilt good for the marios? What have you been using the move for?
Doc's autocanceled SHFF B-air is pretty safe on block if he spaces it well given it does have decent shield push. Mario jumps higher than Doc too so him doing rising B-airs generally is a bigger commitment.
 

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
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Didn't know about bair being safe on shield. Whats the difference between doc and marios bair that makes marios not as safe? What about dropping shield to laser or reflector? Im not sure if that would hit just a thought and itd probably wouldnt be a good idea anyway with the endlag. For neutral are you playing the chase me style or going for a mid range game?
Also how is the up angled ftilt good for the marios? What have you been using the move for?
It's more or less what A2ZOMG said, but for another analogy: Falco and Wolf's Bair. Fox's too, but Wolf's Bair is slightly slower than Falco... Anyway, jump height. Falco's short hop is good, but his natural jump is extremely high, so while he can short hop aerials, his short hop will overshoot at times. Rising Bair is good, but that means you have to be frame perfect. Wolf on the other hand, has a low jump and low short hop, so Bair low to the ground isn't difficult for Wolf. For the Dr. Mario players I've seen, I wished more of them would use Bair. Seriously, it's that good even though Dr. Mario's air speed is worse than Ike and Wolf's. The ability to wall out people with Bair, punish them with Bair, and throw out a safe move like that should be abused.
 

A2ZOMG

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For neutral are you playing the chase me style or going for a mid range game? Also how is the up angled ftilt good for the marios? What have you been using the move for?
Sorry, forgot to respond to this.

Up-angled F-tilt is Falco's fastest anti-air option aside from Reflector, and has pretty good priority and low cooldown. Doing this vs Mario/Doc's short hop spacing is really important to encourage them to stay grounded where Falco is much stronger against them.

I generally play a midrange game vs Mario and Doc. On the ground, Falco outranges them, which forces them to guess. Falco does have slightly more trouble anti-airing the Marios than he would like, but options like SH reflector, up-angled F-tilt, N-air, and B-air give him answers.
 

Ffamran

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Uh, can't Falco also use Utilt for anti-air purposes... It seems like not a lot of people use that. Same with Up Smash, but you have to commit to Up Smash much more than Utilt or Ftilt.
 

A2ZOMG

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Uh, can't Falco also use Utilt for anti-air purposes... It seems like not a lot of people use that. Same with Up Smash, but you have to commit to Up Smash much more than Utilt or Ftilt.
Possible too, just U-tilt's horizontal hitbox isn't as reliable and it has higher commitment than F-tilt. It's better for catching dodges though.
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
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Problem with ftilt is that it doesn't really accomplish anything. Same as reflector.

You can hit with them, but damage is minimal and you have no follow ups.

It's a good thing to throw in every now and again, but more often then not, I'd prefer to look for other punishes. Tomahawking around aerial landings is a great way to get some nice punishes in.
 

Thinktron

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Reviving this discussion, since i find myself playing this a lot, it was considered even, but Falco has been buffed more so than doc.
 
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