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Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 23 - Donkey Kong - Barrel Rolling to Victory!

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
Welcome to the Donkey Kong matchup discussion.

Falco and DK.png

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from DK Frame Data - Smash 4 Edition by @ Big O Big O where you can also find DK's Special hit frames, damage, and more and the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character threads.

As of patch 1.1.4.
Move Hit Frames|:4falco:|:4dk:
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|5-6, 16-17
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|10-21
Ftilt|6-8|9-11
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|5-11
Dtilt|7-9|7-9
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|22-23
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|14-15
Down Smash|7-9|11-14
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|10-26
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|18-22
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|7-16
Uair|7-11|6-10
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|14-16
Grab|8-9|8-9
Dash Grab|10-11|10-11
Pivot Grab|11-12|11-12
 
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NotAnAdmin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 21, 2014
Messages
426
I am starting to like this MU, Falco has the tools to really annoy DK, and if you can do mix-ups well its apparent that DK really can't keep up very well. Along with an easy to read recovery this MU shouldn't be too much of an issue for Falco.
I can't really say much about customs but I did see his buffed up-b that has that create windboxes all around him, that is a huge problem.

65-35 With no customs.
 

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
Gonna drop Gambino's thoughts here too.
I see a lot of you have problems facing DK, and I agree that he is a hard character to deal with.

First I must say that I am no professional in any way, i think that I'm above average but not near tournament level. I've had some success fighting some guys way better than me with Falco, but I think that's just because nobody's used to fighting him.

I've had some success in fighting dk. A general tip for Falco is to get the opponent in the air, since 2 of his areals are amazing and 2 solid. Especially dk has a tough time landing without getting punished in this game. You can score some fine multiple uairs in the beginning of a match. Also, if you see dk charging an attack (or any character for that matter), interrupt it immediately with a single laser shot from a far.

You don't want to stay to close to dk, and lasers are good for annoying him. Also try to push him of the ledge with the reflector. Using side + b slighty above to air to slice through dk and land at a safe distance behind him is a pretty good method of dealing with him. The little landing lag of that move should met you either runaway, down smash or bait do if he tries to dash attack or grab you. I am surprised how often that trick works, side+b:ing through your opponent, landing directly behind them and then immediately down smashing before they can punish you. AND DON'T DASH ATTACK HIM IF HE's backed up against the edge!!!! He will just shield grab you and throw you off, and it kills early especially of he's in rage. Also try not to get predictable with your landing, or else u will get f'd up.

Don't shield do too much, it's better to stay at a safe distance and approach with causion. Dk is a beast against shields, and he's pretty fast so he can **** u up pretty badly if you try to punish out of shield. I think that tip is even in the game if I am not mistaken. AND DON'T DASH ATTACK HIM IF HE's backed up against the edge!!!! He will just shield grab you and throw you off, and it kills early especially of he's in rage.
For me, DK's default Spinning Kong can't be challenged in the air by Falco well. I think it's invincible in mid-air, but I don't remember. Here's the thing, Falco shouldn't challenge DK's Spinning Kong from the sides or below since... yeah, you don't want to gamble with helping DK recover or killing him with Uair which might not work since DK's a heavyweight. Above DK? Yeah, this is where Falco's Dair punishes DKs who are being predictable and unsafe with their recoveries. That's only for Spinning Kong and no-customs matches.

On the ground, Spinning Kong doesn't have invincibility, but that doesn't matter since Falco has access to Blaster and Reflector. I bet Falco Phantasm and even Fire Bird can work to punish it too. Outside of that, Falco doesn't have much aside from shielding and jumping up and Dairing DK. Then again, Spinning Kong shouldn't be used recklessly and it's not as spammable as Kong Cyclone.

For Hand Slap, Falco doesn't really have to worry much with Reflector, Falco Phantasm, or even Blaster, but if DK's using Hand Slap far enough for Falco to use Blaster and get away with it, then there's a problem with that DK. Hand Slap can combo into an aerial if I recall Man Li Gi's DK in recent games correctly.

Giant Punch isn't something to ignore, but it's not something that should freak Falco out since it's not a projectile where someone could bait Falco's Reflector and punish the end lag. It does have a hitbox on the shoulder, so be sure to avoid it completely. I don't really know much about Headbutt, so I won't say much.

Falco will abuse DK's large hurtbox and poor vertical recovery. Falco's strong hits and strong combo game shines against large hurtboxes. Here's the thing, DK will make use of Falco's poor air speed and fall speed against him. It wouldn't be that difficult for DK to spike Falco with Fair, Dair, and Hand Slap or juggle him or catch him with Bair. Speaking of Bairs, this would be a war of the Bairs and DK will outrange Falco while Falco will outspeed him - maybe even out-power him.

Both of their disadvantages will be bad. Falco gets juggled and dies quickly because of DK's strength and has to deal with DK outranging him while DK becomes combo food for Falco and has to deal with Falco's fast attacks and ability to edgeguard deep and gimp.

I can't say much for customs since I never fought a DK with customs, but apparently you can air dodge Kong Cyclone when it scoops you up and avoid the hits. The other thing is that I think you can sneak in a grab or perhaps even a Bair, but I don't know how long the invincibility lasts.
 
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Big O

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
1,401
Location
California
NNID
BiiigOOO
Personally, I am constantly underrating Falco. In my head he is easily like a bottom 10 character, but he always just seems to "work" in practice. Perhaps this is me still underrating Falco, but I think Falco is one of the easier MU's for DK. If I had to give it a ratio, I'd say 6:4 DK's advantage. With customs, I'm not really sure. Both of them get pretty good upgrades, but I'd guess that DK gets even harder to deal with.

Falco's light weight and fast falling nature makes him very susceptible to Cargo Utoss > Uair KO's. He just straight up dies if you grab him at like 70-90%. When he reaches the point where it stops being a combo, it is still a 50-50 KO mixup (reading the air dodge). It also does 20% which is like a fifth of Falco's stock on average.

Falco's Blaster is really weak. He has too much lag after firing so he can't really do much other than disrupt you occasionally for 2-3% per shot. DK's Up B can super armor though a shot from midrange and punish a greedy Blaster shot.

Falco's biggest strength in the MU is how well he can combo/juggle DK. DK has to respect Falco's Utilt because it leads to too much damage and bad positioning to really try to challenge regularly. Falco's grabs also put him in a very good position to capitalize on DK lackluster landing options.

Falco's ground game is very solid. Usually he comes out ahead on damage per hit against move characters, but against DK he doesn't. Relying to much on your ground game gives DK free reign to spam Hand Slap and just come out ahead. Falco's jab is really annoying, but you can jump out of his jab combo finisher like half of the time. Falco needs to alternate between CQC and keepaway to throw DK off balance and maximize his chances of winning.

In the air I feel like DK has an advantage over Falco. DK's Bair is just too good. Falco's Bair is really good too, but ours has better range and DK has much better air speed than Falco. Offstage Falco has to use Side B at the right time to recover safely, because if he ever Up B's below the stage he will probably get intercepted. If DK gets sloppy with his Up B he can get spiked, but he has to be very sloppy to get hit by Falco's slow Dair. Falco's Fair has deceptive range/priority and can KO fairly well offstage, but if you get used to it then you can avoid it or intercept it with Up B.

Overall, I feel like DK just outlasts and overpowers Falco.
 

Gamegenie222

Space Pheasant Dragon Tactician
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
6,758
Location
Omaha, Nebraska
NNID
Gamegenie222
3DS FC
3411-1825-3363
I agree with the outlast and overpower lol. I haven't played many DK's or good ones for that matter so I be down to play you if you want?
 

Thinktron

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 23, 2015
Messages
99
Location
England Maybe
Okay so this is how i feel The patch and falcos buffs effect this match-up.

Falco can easily land his Dair on a recovering Kong, being slower than it is in brawl doesn't make it a bad spike, its still easy to land and still a great move off stage, especially against a giant ape with no vertical recovery.

If Falco didn't have the air advantage before the patch, he does now, in fact all of Falco's improvements help in the Match-up, so im going to put this in Falcos advantage

forward air into forward air works really well on DK, and all heavyweights for that matter. And now neutral air is great for combos and putting DK in a position he cant do much.

Finally DK can still be Laser jabbed if he misses a teck, while not as effective as in brawl, each laser deals 3 damage meaning that's 9 damage until Dk can escape, and even then Dk once again needs to approach, where we can just use reflector to poke you away.
65/35 Falcos advantage.
 
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