Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 01 - Mario - Redux Edition

[Ffamran]

Welcome to the Mario matchup discussion. The original thread, SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 01 - Dr. Mario/Mario, had the two together and I believe that would be very confusing since Mario and Dr. Mario don't play like each other in Melee and SSB4. So, this will be a "redo" and as a way to make it more focused. Similarly, in the future, Pit & Dark Pit and Marth & Lucina will have their own threads. Be sure to check out the original thread since the information, while dated, may still be useful and relevant today.

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from List of attacks/grabs from fastest initial frame to slowest (Frame Speed) and the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character threads.

As of patch 1.1.4.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|2-3, 8-9, 12-13
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|6-9 or 10-25
Ftilt|6-8|5-6
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|5-11
Dtilt|7-9|5-7
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|15-17
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|9-12
Down Smash|7-9|5-6 or 14-14
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|3-5 or 6-29
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|16-16 or 17-20 or 21-21
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|6-7 or 8-10
Uair|7-11|4-8
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|5-5, 6-6, 7-7, 8-8, 9-9, 25-25
Grab|8-9|6-7
Dash Grab|10-11|8-9
Pivot Grab|11-12|9-10

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Given how Mario gets his damage, it's safe to say we need to be wary not to throw out unsafe moves without reason. Mario's specialty is punishment, and the moment he gets a dthrow on us he'll try to tack on as much damage as possible before we're let go.

In fact, Mario's goal is to capitalize on every itty-bitty little thing he lands, whether it's a grab, jab, tilt, or even a fireball.

Assuming we're on a non-custom meta, I'd say our best thing to do is play it as safe as possible. Lasers are very risky due to Mario having cape, as well as potentially being fast enough to take us for a ride. If we throw out a smash and he shields, that's a throw into a million percent. We reflector and it doesn't trip or hit him, throw into a billion percent.

However, I think if we can keep him in the air we may have the advantage. I welcome anyone to challenge my claims here, but I think we hit Mario before he hits us when airborne so long as we're not above him. That is to say, if he can't hit us with uair we should be good to go. Not to mention our utilt, and potentially shieldgrab into uthrow-uair or dthrow-dash attack/usmash.

Regarding recovery, he doesn't have the best vertical recovery but wall jumps and ledge snapping help him out a ton. He can stall a slight bit with the cape, and if we aren't careful with edge-guarding we can potentially get stage-spiked by his up-b.

When we're recovering, Mario can not only cape our recoveries but push us away with F.L.U.D.D., meaning if he's got it charged we'll be forced to try and recover low. Then, he could attempt the fair spike or bair for the stage-spike, or even cape if the situation presents itself.

I certainly think this is a matchup that will heavily test your fundamentals no matter which side you're on, requiring precise spacing and knowledge of what moves are safe at what times. For now, I'm thinking it a clean 50/50 in nobody's favor.

 

[HeroMystic]

However, I think if we can keep him in the air we may have the advantage. I welcome anyone to challenge my claims here, but I think we hit Mario before he hits us when airborne so long as we're not above him. That is to say, if he can't hit us with uair we should be good to go. Not to mention our utilt, and potentially shieldgrab into uthrow-uair or dthrow-dash attack/usmash.

Not exactly how Mario works. Mario shouldn't be using U-air if he's not below you. If he's doing a short hop and approaching you with that, it's almost a certainty that he will drift and fastfall if you short hop aerial, and that's what'll put you in trouble.

Mario almost never outright wins in neutral due to his short range. It's when he's up close and personal is when characters have a lot of trouble, and Falco is no exception due to him not having the easiest time getting out disadvantage and having some pretty poor options on the ledge. Falco is also a fast faller, which means he gets combo'd by Mario more easily, and he's also fairly light (10th lightest character), meaning Mario has an easier time killing him which is usually his main drawback for MUs.

Mario is more reliant on his ground game this time around, and in that case Falco should be staying grounded. Don't bother reflecting fireballs unless he's spamming them (and he shouldn't be). If he's short-hopping, that's the best opportunity to use reflector to keep him out. If he's too close, use jab immediately. D-tilt if you want to mix it up, grab if he telegraphs an aerial approach.

Once Mario is in though, he's in. Unfortunately for Falco he's combo food for Mario. D-Throw combos are cool, and he can reset them through intelligent use of N-air to keep up his advantageous position. Your best bet is to drift to the ledge ASAP to avoid getting juggled, then resetting the situation to neutral.

Falco has a pretty good time juggling Mario though. He can't do a thing against Falco's U-air besides fireball to shift momentum, but this is neutered by the fact that Falco is the best jumper in this game along with being one of the fastest fastfallers, making his vertical mobility amazing. Along with that, Falco's ground game is pretty good against Mario. He can U-tilt juggle, tack on percentage with F-tilt when spacing him out, and we can't forget about grabs either. He may not be doing 10+ hits like Mario is but his damage per hit is very strong so he can catch up.

Falco's biggest problem will actually be getting some momentum. Mario will constantly be baiting for mistakes and due to his mobility this is possible. I agree Falco has to play this safe as he's on defense, but due to that it'll be difficult for him to get the damage he wants unless Mario makes a huge mistake in neutral that allows Falco to go in and capitalize. Mario on the other hand just needs a minor mistake to get something going.

Edit: I think this is one MU where Falco should be foxtrotting a lot.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

My past exp with Mario has usually been filled with hurdling a bunch of fireballs while the Mario sits and waits.
Not saying that this is the only strategy for fighting Falco, but it is effective, outside of his slow reflector, he has no way to make it easier. Mario has a faster reflect move a well.
He simply can't handle them.

Anyway, like everyone else said, dthrow>uptilt for a million percent works but not only that works exceptionally well on Falco and Mario has plenty of options to either reset the grab or keep racking up damage.

For this MU, I would try going for Battlefield or some other stage with platforms.

However, if Falco can get Mario into the air long enough, he is going to take some serious damage, dthrow>dash>fair>fair at around 30-40 percent links very well, and since it lingers for so long, air dodging at the wrong time would cause the fair to "auto-punish". Now Falco can fair or something else again, not only that we can bait the air dodge and make another move. Sometimes I wait and see what the Mario will do, and punish accordingly.

 

[Ffamran]

Mario's Dash Attack lingers and it's low to the ground which could lead to issues for Falco while recovering. Also, Mario using Nair and Dair to glide around is a thing. I think BoScotty or someone else in the Midwest area loves to jump or short hop rising Dairs which considering how low it stays out, isn't something nice to try and challenge. Mario's increased air speed in this game basically allows him to do a "slow", gliding Nair of pure annoyance.

From far away, Falco could sneak in lasers to punish or use Reflector to force Mario to pick another option which he could just use Uair or RAR Bair then. Reflector Void would be a strong punish considering its strong knockback making it safer if you can time it since it's slower compared to default Reflector.

When it comes to customs, Gust Cape and High-Pressure FLUDD can gimp Falco, but I don't know how it'll affect Falco Phase. I could see Mario using them to force Falco to go low and stage spike or something. Scalding FLUDD is powerful, but I don't remember why; a Mario player will need to explain this. Explosive Punch is more or less a shorter ranged Shuttle Loop; with Mario being able to Uair juggle like Captain Falcon, Meta Knight, and ZSS, it's going to be doom for Falco because of his lack of escape options from having a fast fall speed and slow air speed. Super Jump Punch is invincible, so don't challenge that and I think Mario can use it like Nair to interrupt Falco's rapid jab or punish a jab cancel. Fast Fireballs will be annoying, but they do sacrifice Mario's ability to cover from an angle with default Fireball and use them in a retreating way to force approaches. Hence, "Fast", Mario can jab lock you with it in certain situations.

 

[MadCanard]

I was fighting a Mario online and to start every match he would hunt for a grab and once he got it he would down throw (I think it was down throw) and then up tilt over and over. I couldn't get out till about 40%. It happened almost every match. I was DI'ing in every direction. Shielding, jumping, fast falling. I couldn't seem to get out of it.

Obviously the best thing to do is avoid Mario's grab while I'm at low percentage, but if Mario does get the grab what is the correct way to get out of the up tilt juggle?

 

[Attila_]

Main points

1. Mario is a better character than falco. He has faster movement, aerial mobility, better frame data and recovery.
2. Falco's bair can cleanly beat all Mario's aerials when spaced. This is Falco's lifeline in the mu.
3. Dtilt is safer than jab in most scenarios, as it beats all Mario's tilts and forces an aerial approach. Jab loses in a number of situations; ftilt is only not punishable on shield when fully spaced.
4. Laser interrupts approaches. It stops flow. It doesn't force approaches, but it makes them slightly harder.
5. Mario combos falco really, really hard. On occasion, falco can use nair to combo break.
6. Falco's combos are broken by Mario's nair unless they are true combos.
7. Don't wait for aerials to finish/land to punish; it doesn't work. You need to beat them with bair.
8. Mario's upB is invincible; gimping good Marios shouldn't happen. Mario can gimp obvious Falco recoveries with cape or nair, though. Utilize platforms and sharp UpB angles.

At least 60:40 Mario, probably worse.