Squirtle could be better :/

Teeb147

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#1
Hey. So, I've watched quite a bit of pokemon trainer gameplay now, and I think that overall the character is top tier, but I think the bulk of that goes into Ivysaur and Charizard.
Right now, I think someone could also easily main either one of those two, and it would be a decent time, but Squirtle on the other hand doesn't match up. I've looked at his speed and hitboxes, and it's not that great, it seems inferior in everyway to sheik and pikachu.

If he could at least have more aerial speed he could be a bit different than those two, but among those with good ground speed, squirtle isn't quite as fast, and around the same kind of horizontal aerial speed as sheik and pika (which is on the low side). Also, Sheik has a bit better range, and Pika has multi-hitting attacks as well as a spike.. They also both have good projectiles while squirtle only has a windbox on his water gun. Not to mention the up-b of both of these is more useful than waterfall (overall).

So, considering all that, Squirtle doesn't seem to bring too much by himself, especially compared to the other two pokemon which can stand by themselves (and charizard complements ivysaur's recovery.) compared to other fighters. I mean, what does he have to offer that's good to match up?
-Of course, I know that as a 3-character trainer, it's a great character overall, but I just think Squirtle could (and maybe should) be better than he is as an individual character.


I hope they change him a little to add a bit more. At least he could have a bit better aerial speed than ivysaur, who's a zoner.
Anybody feel the same or differently?
 
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Luigifan18

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#2
I'm actually pretty sure Squirtle is the best of the three because he's the only one who can recover worth half a damn.
 

Teeb147

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#3
I'm actually pretty sure Squirtle is the best of the three because he's the only one who can recover worth half a damn.
Charizard has a better recovery. Multiple jumps, up-b almost the same range yet faster, and side-b for horizontal (without dropping). I think maybe even better aerial speed, but it's hard to tell exactly, might be close.
 
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Luigifan18

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#4
Charizard has a better recovery. Multiple jumps, up-b almost the same range yet faster, and side-b for horizontal (without dropping).
All tempered by an atrocious air speed. Though Flare Blitz does admittedly help. I based my statement off my experience with Pokémon Trainer in Brawl.
 

Teeb147

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#5
All tempered by an atrocious air speed. Though Flare Blitz does admittedly help. I based my statement off my experience with Pokémon Trainer in Brawl.
You say atrocious air speed, but it's better than Squirtle's (horizontally), that's what I'm trying to say.
And there doesnt seem to be much difference in the heights of their up-b.
 
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Zachmac

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#6
Charizard is barely changed from Smash 4, so I doubt he'll be all that amazing on his own. He'll be heavily dependant of his teammates to cover his weaknesses.

Meanwhile Squirt doesn't have to be better then Sheik or Pikachu, he just has to be good enough in his own right which he certainly seems to be. He's got fantastic mobility, will probably have a number of combos once his meta develops, and has amazing frame data. Stubby range or not, that sounds like the makings of a great character, especially since his size and mobility will really help him get in close to overcome that weakness.

He's the perfect antithesis to Zard - while Squirt will be great at racking up damage and slipping out of tough situations while Zard will be great at surviving and finishing stocks.

Edit: Also I've been hearing that Squirtle has solid air speed. What's this about it being worse then Zard's?
I'm actually pretty sure Squirtle is the best of the three because he's the only one who can recover worth half a damn.
Zard has amazing recovery, take it from a Smash 4 Zard main. Flare Blitz travels a long way and is dangerous to challenge and Fly has super armor. Squirt is still probably the best but for different reasons.
 
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Teeb147

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#7
Charizard is barely changed from Smash 4, so I doubt he'll be all that amazing on his own. He'll be heavily dependant of his teammates to cover his weaknesses.

Meanwhile Squirt doesn't have to be better then Sheik or Pikachu, he just has to be good enough in his own right which he certainly seems to be. He's got fantastic mobility, will probably have a number of combos once his meta develops, and has amazing frame data. Stubby range or not, that sounds like the makings of a great character, especially since his size and mobility will really help him get in close to overcome that weakness.

He's the perfect antithesis to Zard - while Squirt will be great at racking up damage and slipping out of tough situations while Zard will be great at surviving and finishing stocks.
Zard has amazing recovery, take it from a Smash 4 Zard main. Flare Blitz travels a long way and is dangerous to challenge and Fly has super armor. Squirt is still probably the best but for different reasons.
His mobility is great in some ways but not horizontally (especially in the air), so he'll have a bit of trouble getting in and out.
But you're right that what he has going is his size and frame data. But again, it doesn't match up to pikachu's, and also has less tools to help catch people off-guard (like projectiles). He's just too honest of a character, without the mobility being good enough to attack safely (in many cases, it seems like anyway). Doesnt seem that great at racking up damage in the meta from what I saw, it's not like im saying he's low tier, although that's possible too (by himself), imo.
That's my impression anyway.

I'm willing to be shown otherwise. Kinda part of what could assure me. The best would be if they changed him though.
 
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Zachmac

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#8
His mobility is great in some ways but not horizontally (especially in the air), so he'll have a bit of trouble getting in and out.
But you're right that what he has going is his size and frame data. But again, it doesn't match up to pikachu's, and also has less tools to help catch people off-guard (like projectiles). He's just too honest of a character, without the mobility being good enough to attack safely (in many cases, it seems like anyway). Doesnt seem that great at racking up damage in the meta from what I saw, it's not like im saying he's low tier, although that's possible too (by himself), imo.
That's my impression anyway.

I'm willing to be shown otherwise. Kinda part of what could assure me. The best would be if they changed him though.
Where are you hearing that Squirtle's air speed is bad? I keep hearing otherwise. Wasn't he in the top 10 in Brawl?

And he should have better damage output once the meta develops and people start figuring him out and learn his combos. He's got way more potential for that then Ivy or Zard.
 
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Teeb147

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#9
Where are you hearing that Squirtle's air speed is bad? I keep hearing otherwise. Wasn't he in the top 10 in Brawl?

And he should have better damage output once the meta develops and people start figuring him out and learn his combos. He's got way more potential for that then Ivy or Zard.
Im not hearing about it, I'm watching gameplay videos and comparing. He has very low aerial speed. and his run speed isn't that great either. (even if it's.. alright). His jump speed is good, but other than that he moves very slow horizontally in the air.

In Brawl he at least had interesting movement techniques, including dacus, which could really catch people offguard as a kill option.
I also dont think he has more potential than the other two pokemon.
 
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Zachmac

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#10
Im not hearing about it, I'm watching gameplay videos and comparing. He has very low aerial speed. and his run speed isn't that great either. (even if it's.. alright). His jump speed is good, but other than that he moves very slow horizontally in the air.

In Brawl he at least had interesting movement techniques, including dacus, which could really catch people offguard as a kill option.
I also dont think he has more potential than the other two pokemon.
Hm, well we are in the demo stage and eyeballing these things and word of mouth can both be really inaccurate. We'll have to wait until the game drops for labbers to figure it out exactly.

But saying that Squirt has less air speed then Charizard seems laughable to me, and to say he has less combo potential then Charizard or Ivysaur seems even more laughable to me.
 

Teeb147

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#11
Hm, well we are in the demo stage and eyeballing these things and word of mouth can both be really inaccurate. We'll have to wait until the game drops for labbers to figure it out exactly.

But saying that Squirt has less air speed then Charizard seems laughable to me, and to say he has less combo potential then Charizard or Ivysaur seems even more laughable to me.
Well not less combo potential than charizard, but possibly less than ivysaur (and much tiner hit boxes). Zard's not really about the comboes anyway.

It's kind of easy to tell that he doesnt have good air speed horizontally, and if I do find some easily comparable clips I could share them. I tend to look at these aspects automatically, so for me it's easier to tell. But I get if it's not as natural for others.
I also want to see if I can find bowser and squirtle running alongside to compare the run speed. Altho, bowser does run faster this time around.

Also, a comparison I wanted to make was between squirtle and 'other' fast characters. And he seems pretty lacking compared to them.
 
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Zachmac

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#12
Well not less combo potential than charizard, but possibly less than ivysaur (and much tiner hit boxes). Zard's not really about the comboes anyway.

It's kind of easy to tell that he doesnt have good air speed horizontally, and if I do find some easily comparable clips I could share them. I tend to look at these aspects automatically, so for me it's easier to tell. But I get if it's not as natural for others.
I also want to see if I can find bowser and squirtle running alongside to compare the run speed. Altho, bowser does run faster this time around.

Also, a comparison I wanted to make was between squirtle and 'other' fast characters. And he seems pretty lacking compared to them.
https://youtu.be/1aBLBK6AS68?t=273

Pushblock Gaming has been my main source on character changes. At the timestamp I just linked, he mentions both that no character has had a significant change in running speed, no even Bowser apparently. He tests this by overlaying them and counting frames, not by eyeballing it. Air speed is very hard to measure this way for multiple reasons.

Not that Bowser was slow at all in Smash 4. He had a faster run speed then Marth.

But if eyeballing run speed is as inaccurate as it is, then there's no way eyeballing air speed is reliable at all.
 

Teeb147

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#13
https://youtu.be/1aBLBK6AS68?t=273

Pushblock Gaming has been my main source on character changes. At the timestamp I just linked, he mentions both that no character has had a significant change in running speed, no even Bowser apparently. He tests this by overlaying them and counting frames, not by eyeballing it. Air speed is very hard to measure this way for multiple reasons.

Not that Bowser was slow at all in Smash 4. He had a faster run speed then Marth.

But if eyeballing run speed is as inaccurate as it is, then there's no way eyeballing air speed is reliable at all.
Those things just get taken into account, that's all. Air speed is one of the things I pay attention to, and it's by watching a lot of gameplay that I get a sense of where the max-speed (of the analog stick) is. In some cases it's pretty obvious than in other cases.

I was just curious about bowser in this case, but it's been said often that he's faster now, though I havent checked myself, I just trusted the pros on that one.
It might not matter that much. But it does seem like squirtle runs slower. I think that might not be that big of an issue, except that he has way smaller hit boxes so he has to get in, but if he can't dance around as well, it's going to be hard. (and he's likely to get caught with aerials, with that air speed)

His jump speed is incredibly good though, and I think that's what makes him look fast, but he really seems to fall flat horizontally.
 
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Zachmac

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#14
Those things just get taken into account, that's all. Air speed is one of the things I pay attention to, and it's by watching a lot of gameplay that I get a sense of where the max-speed (of the analog stick) is. In some cases it's pretty obvious than in other cases.

I was just curious about bowser in this case, but it's been said often that he's faster now, though I havent checked myself, I just trusted the pros on that one.
It might not matter that much. But it does seem like squirtle runs slower. I think that might not be that big of an issue, except that he has way smaller hit boxes so he has to get in, but if he can't dance around as well, it's going to be hard. (and he's likely to get caught with aerials, with that air speed)

His jump speed is incredibly good though, and I think that's what makes him look fast, but he really seems to fall flat horizontally.
https://youtu.be/-JBM78czRpE

Well if we're talking about eyeballing it anyway, just look at this video. Squirtle is practically flying around throughout the entire game while Charizard is still his same old clunky self. I mean just check this bit out. I don't see Charizard or Ivysaur pulling off any movement stunts like that.
 

Teeb147

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#15
https://youtu.be/-JBM78czRpE

Well if we're talking about eyeballing it anyway, just look at this video. Squirtle is practically flying around throughout the entire game while Charizard is still his same old clunky self. I mean just check this bit out. I don't see Charizard or Ivysaur pulling off any movement stunts like that.
Ive watched all the gameplay videos, and that one multiple times. It's like I said, his jump speed is good, which makes him look fast, but his horizontal movement speed in the air sucks. It's not faster than charizard's. They seem close to the same. (and yeah I thoroughly watched those videos)

Zard's jump speed isnt' great, but since jump squat frames are the same universally, it's not as important, at least for how fast an aerial move will come out.

I do appreciate the gif though, it does give me a little hope that his ability to shift direction isn't totally trash.
I still hope they update him before the full games comes out, for the better.
 
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MERPIS

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#16
Lol look at vision over here calling out squirtles airspeed for being bad when in brawl it was ridiculously good, almost as good as wario. And in videos you see squirtle weaving in and out like smash 4 wario with fairs an bairs up the ***. Almost every one of his tools is out on frame 5 or 6 and most of which are stupidly oppressive, mainly up air and forward air. Saying he's bad solely because he isn't as mobile as pikachu or sheik, when in reality he has much lengthier combos, actual kill power, and a legitimately strong kill throw, is just plain stupid.
 

Teeb147

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#17
Lol look at vision over here calling out squirtles airspeed for being bad when in brawl it was ridiculously good, almost as good as wario. And in videos you see squirtle weaving in and out like smash 4 wario with fairs an bairs up the ***. Almost every one of his tools is out on frame 5 or 6 and most of which are stupidly oppressive, mainly up air and forward air. Saying he's bad solely because he isn't as mobile as pikachu or sheik, when in reality he has much lengthier combos, actual kill power, and a legitimately strong kill throw, is just plain stupid.
It's certainly a lot worse than mario's, from a video i just watched.

As far as I've seen, he has some of the worst kill power. Do you have something about it?
One of his throws kills at a high enough %, which is funny.

His bair is good though, has more range than fair. (I'd kind of prefer if fair was good like it though)
 

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#18
It's certainly a lot worse than mario's, from a video i just watched.

As far as I've seen, he has some of the worst kill power. Do you have something about it?
One of his throws kills at a high enough %, which is funny.

His bair is good though, has more range than fair. (I'd kind of prefer if fair was good like it though)
literally watch this
 

R.Y.N.O.

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#19
I’ve never gotten the chance to get my hands on ultimate personally, but I’ve played a fair amount of squirtle in PM (albeit he is alot different and certainly more gimmicky than his more honest ultimate incarnation from what ive been watching). While I can totally understand your concerns while focusing on his air and ground speed as well as range, I do think you might be selling him a bit short.

I think people might be mixing up or combining air speed and aerial drift while discussing squirtle. He has always had mediocre horizontal air speed but spectacular drift, kind of like Wario. Although unlike Wario he is faster, absolutely tiny, has a good combo game, and has broken frame data on almost all his moves.

I think most people look at squirtle and expect a rushdown character in neutral but in actuality if hes played like he has traditionally hed be more geared towards a bait and punish playstyle, abusing his tiny size, frame data, and aerial drift to fade in and out of the opponents zone of control, pestering their shield with fadeback aerials and crossups, and punishing them for getting lazy or desperate trying to swat away at him.

His punish game is another part that might be getting overlooked, as while with his ground/air speed I dont expect him to fair-ing people across the stage horizontally like shiek, he does have alot of potential for vertical combos between his up-throw, broken up air frame data, BROKEN HITBOX up-smash, and general vertical air speed. He seems like a character that will be very hard to get down back to the stage on, especially with only one laggy air dodge. He also has his own multihit aerials in bair and dair for when those are useful. Windbox neutral b also seems like it be very valuable in this game due to more limited recoveries.

With his average ground and air speed like you mentioned I don’t see players getting much mileage out of overly aggressive squirtle plays at least in the beginning when the game comes out. I can see what you mean when you say he seems like a worse pikachu, but thats only if people try to play him like pikachu. And hes pre programmed with weaknesses like range and kill power for the other pokemon to cover by design.
 
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#22
My man likes to eat thats all im saying
Wario is not a FAT
He probably has a better airspeed and better air acceleration than your main
If he is a FAT then how does he weave through the air like a god
 

Teeb147

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#23
I’ve never gotten the chance to get my hands on ultimate personally, but I’ve played a fair amount of squirtle in PM (albeit he is alot different and certainly more gimmicky than his more honest ultimate incarnation from what ive been watching). While I can totally understand your concerns while focusing on his air and ground speed as well as range, I do think you might be selling him a bit short.

I think people might be mixing up or combining air speed and aerial drift while discussing squirtle. He has always had mediocre horizontal air speed but spectacular drift, kind of like Wario. Although unlike Wario he is faster, absolutely tiny, has a good combo game, and has broken frame data on almost all his moves.

I think most people look at squirtle and expect a rushdown character in neutral but in actuality if hes played like he has traditionally hed be more geared towards a bait and punish playstyle, abusing his tiny size, frame data, and aerial drift to fade in and out of the opponents zone of control, pestering their shield with fadeback aerials and crossups, and punishing them for getting lazy or desperate trying to swat away at him.

His punish game is another part that might be getting overlooked, as while with his ground/air speed I dont expect him to fair-ing people across the stage horizontally like shiek, he does have alot of potential for vertical combos between his up-throw, broken up air frame data, BROKEN HITBOX up-smash, and general vertical air speed. He seems like a character that will be very hard to get down back to the stage on, especially with only one laggy air dodge. He also has his own multihit aerials in bair and dair for when those are useful. Windbox neutral b also seems like it be very valuable in this game due to more limited recoveries.

With his average ground and air speed like you mentioned I don’t see players getting much mileage out of overly aggressive squirtle plays at least in the beginning when the game comes out. I can see what you mean when you say he seems like a worse pikachu, but thats only if people try to play him like pikachu. And hes pre programmed with weaknesses like range and kill power for the other pokemon to cover by design.
Thanks for sharing your take. I think that's pretty fair. Though I don't agree that his aerial drift is that great. It's not that different from sheik's from what I saw, but sheik has more range on fair. I just dont think that, once people are experienced, they'll have a hard time reaching the little gap there'll be from drifting back. It's not like pikachu's where the hitbox stays out after it comes out, people will able to drop their shield and get him.
So I dont think the style he'd be good for (bait and punish) will actually work.

Of course, that's just based on what I've seen up to now, and maybe a lot more will come into play once the game releases, but I still have the concerns for the aerial speed. also because I expected (maybe wanted) him to have more.

I do think there could be something to the juggle game, with good vertical stuff like you mentioned, which is cool, but for me it doesn't seem enough.
And it doesnt bother me for the trainer in general if squirtle doesnt have kill power since ivy and charizard are really good for that. But it just doesnt feel good to see him move so slow in the air. (as well as not having other tools like pikachu does) - I think it's better for 1 character to have all those tools on hand than having to switch to another to then only use ranged, and not be able to mix up with the good frame data anymore.

But I appreciated your take. (even if Im still looking at what feels lacking)

literally watch this


I did see that, but took a look at squirtle's section since you brought it up.
I think the frame data is the best mark for him. I still dont think he has good air mobility though even with an alright drift. I can understand why people think that though, because he does have good speed vertically, so it seems good at a glance.
 
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R.Y.N.O.

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#24
Yea
Thanks for sharing your take. I think that's pretty fair. Though I don't agree that his aerial drift is that great. It's not that different from sheik's from what I saw, but sheik has more range on fair. I just dont think that, once people are experienced, they'll have a hard time reaching the little gap there'll be from drifting back. It's not like pikachu's where the hitbox stays out after it comes out, people will able to drop their shield and get him.
So I dont think the style he'd be good for (bait and punish) will actually work.

Of course, that's just based on what I've seen up to now, and maybe a lot more will come into play once the game releases, but I still have the concerns for the aerial speed. also because I expected (maybe wanted) him to have more.

I do think there could be something to the juggle game, with good vertical stuff like you mentioned, which is cool, but for me it doesn't seem enough.
And it doesnt bother me for the trainer in general if squirtle doesnt have kill power since ivy and charizard are really good for that. But it just doesnt feel good to see him move so slow in the air. (as well as not having other tools like pikachu does) - I think it's better for 1 character to have all those tools on hand than having to switch to another to then only use ranged, and not be able to mix up with the good frame data anymore.

But I appreciated your take. (even if Im still looking at what feels lacking)



I did see that, but took a look at squirtle's section since you brought it up.
I think the frame data is the best mark for him. I still dont think he has good air mobility though even with an alright drift. I can understand why people think that though, because he does have good speed vertically, so it seems good at a glance.
Yeah i see what youre saying, i think the name of the game for squirtle is gonna be mixups like with his multi hit, crossups or tomahawking since he seems to have a good fall speed, and counterpicking to smaller stages (hopefully yoshis is back in tourneys) or with platforms for him to mixup his approaches on. Its certainly not an unpunishable playstyle, especially with parries being introduced, but im not sure if it will ever be easy if the squirtle is doing it well and i just think he has more potential for it with his kit than most of everyone else. Shiek is definitely a monster but has her own weaknesses squitle doesn't share as heavily with charizard behind him. Worst case scenario you fail as squirtle and have to switch bc you got hit too much. Youre right when you say that he could have more on his own but I think that if he was just shiek by himself then the whole characters design would be sort of moot. Knowing when to call it quits and switch might be a really important skill for pt players to get the feel of. At the absolute very least squirtle will be a great escape option for charizard. I love this character just for how unique he is and the discussion he creates.

I think PT having their strengths segmented instead of balled up into one character is both a strength (in that you can abuse them harder in certain situations and force people to keep adapting) and a weakness for him/her, but I dont mind because having all three characters best strengths at once would look like bayo, and the switching is pretty fast. Ive aways found squirtle to be a tough character to pick up fast so maybe time might produce more faith in him for you. I appreciate you bringing these things to attention though as since Im planning on maining Pt i was definitely subconsciously ignoring their weaknesses lol.
 

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#25
Alright, you got me. I confused "speed" with "mobility" again.

I still think Squirt has solid aerial mobility, even if that's mostly in jump and drift speed. It'll still do what it needs to by giving him a way of taking advatage of that killer frame data through mix ups and tomahawks, making him a character who is difficult to react to. And I-m not just talking about tomagawk grabs either - tomahawk shielding and jabing are things to. Great vertical air speed also means great vertical combos. He still has good range on his smashes for when the situation calls for that and if he ever needs a burst of horizontal speed for any reason, he still has Withdraw. He may not be Sheik but there's no way he's going to be especially bad either.

Charizard, meanwhile, is still his old, heavy-commitment Smash 4 self. He won't be carrying his teammates, they'll be carrying him, letting him sit on the bench until they need someone to kill or recover with. Otherwise he's combo fodder who can't land. Yeah his juggle game might help him rack up his own damage, but combos are a much more consistent and safer way of doing that. SoloZard was low tier for all of Smash 4 and the only reason people are giving him attention now is that he finally has a way to avoid his weaknesses with that down special. You think Squirt vs Cloud might be a bad matchup? Try being Zard vs a skilled Sheik or Zero Suit Samus, then we can talk. Charizard needs Squirtle to be viable.

Meanwhile Ivysaur seems to lack much in terms of flexibility. She can play defensively very well with those disjoint and Razor Leaf but seems to lack much of an offensive pressence when the situation calls for it. Many of her moves, such as Up Smash, seem pretty situational and don't add much to her versitility, and let's not even mention that laughable recovery. Her defensive game will be fantastic and a welcome addition to the trainer's team but it takes more then a couple good disjoints and a projectile to stand on your own.
 
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R.Y.N.O.

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 12, 2018
Messages
7
#26
Alright, you got me. I confused "speed" with "mobility" again.

I still think Squirt has solid aerial mobility, even if that's mostly in jump and drift speed. It'll still do what it needs to by giving him a way of taking advatage of that killer frame data through mix ups and tomahawks, making him a character who is difficult to react to. And I-m not just talking about tomagawk grabs either - tomahawk shielding and jabing are things to. Great vertical air speed also means great vertical combos. He still has good range on his smashes for when the situation calls for that and if he ever needs a burst of horizontal speed for any reason, he still has Withdraw. He may not be Sheik but there's no way he's going to be especially bad either.

Charizard, meanwhile, is still his old, heavy-commitment Smash 4 self. He won't be carrying his teammates, they'll be carrying him, letting him sit on the bench until they need someone to kill or recover with. Otherwise he's combo fodder who can't land. Yeah his juggle game might help him rack up his own damage, but combos are a much more consistent and safer way of doing that. SoloZard was low tier for all of Smash 4 and the only reason people are giving him attention now is that he finally has a way to avoid his weaknesses with that down special. You think Squirt vs Cloud might be a bad matchup? Try being Zard vs a skilled Sheik or Zero Suit Samus, then we can talk. Charizard needs Squirtle to be viable.

Meanwhile Ivysaur seems to lack much in terms of flexibility. She can play defensively very well with those disjoint and Razor Leaf but seems to lack much of an offensive pressence when the situation calls for it. Many of her moves, such as Up Smash, seem pretty situational and don't add much to her versitility, and let's not even mention that laughable recovery. Her defensive game will be fantastic and a welcome addition to the trainer's team but it takes more then a couple good disjoints and a projectile to stand on your own.
Yeah all three of them certainly have their own pronounced infividual weaknesses, you did a really great job illustrating them.

This is why I think that trying to argue that the pokemon can actually stand on their own is pointless. They all have pronounced weaknesses that arent ever going away... unless you press down b. I feel that though there are some people that want to solo main one of the three, and while there is no problem with that, it should be expresed somewhere that it is just less optimal. The Pokemon Trainer is made to be used with teamwork between all three of them. Definitely not in equal parts though in every matchup, stage, player MU, as well as in game as percents shift, but there is a place for all of them.

In most MUs I do agree with you that charizard would probably be used the least amount of time in a match, but I think he’ll have his time to shine. If people start getting a little too over zealous trying to edgeguard offstage, which is something I see happening due to how the meta has shifted towards that, flare blitz (now stronger and less laggy) is extremely difficult and dangerous to challenge from the air. Just having that deterrent will make recovering as PT alot easier, something I see alot of other characters struggling with as the meta develops. Flamethrower was already a great edgeguarding tool in some MUs, now probably more so with the nerfed ledge grab distance if im not mistaken. That and being able to live long and maybe cheese out a kill on a read with rage will be nice. I think maybe a wise way to play around switching jnto charizard would be to only do it when you are at high percent (so you can just focus on living long and not worry about being comboed), not just if the opponent is at high % and you want to kill. Ivysaur will probably be a safer choice for trying to fish for kills in most matchups, at least if you yourself still have some percent to give.

I think that youre right that Ivysaur won’t be able to play as agressively on command as we would like when a situation asks for it. But on top of the great defensive game I think Ivysaur could potentially play “aggressively” in a similar way to marth, focusing on controlling space and closing in the opponent and restricting them from a relatively safe mid distance. They probably cant pull off rushdown but at least dont have to play campy all the time.

This isnt even about squirtle anymore
hope das koo lol
 

Teeb147

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
8,149
#27
Yea


Yeah i see what youre saying, i think the name of the game for squirtle is gonna be mixups like with his multi hit, crossups or tomahawking since he seems to have a good fall speed, and counterpicking to smaller stages (hopefully yoshis is back in tourneys) or with platforms for him to mixup his approaches on. Its certainly not an unpunishable playstyle, especially with parries being introduced, but im not sure if it will ever be easy if the squirtle is doing it well and i just think he has more potential for it with his kit than most of everyone else. Shiek is definitely a monster but has her own weaknesses squitle doesn't share as heavily with charizard behind him. Worst case scenario you fail as squirtle and have to switch bc you got hit too much. Youre right when you say that he could have more on his own but I think that if he was just shiek by himself then the whole characters design would be sort of moot. Knowing when to call it quits and switch might be a really important skill for pt players to get the feel of. At the absolute very least squirtle will be a great escape option for charizard. I love this character just for how unique he is and the discussion he creates.

I think PT having their strengths segmented instead of balled up into one character is both a strength (in that you can abuse them harder in certain situations and force people to keep adapting) and a weakness for him/her, but I dont mind because having all three characters best strengths at once would look like bayo, and the switching is pretty fast. Ive aways found squirtle to be a tough character to pick up fast so maybe time might produce more faith in him for you. I appreciate you bringing these things to attention though as since Im planning on maining Pt i was definitely subconsciously ignoring their weaknesses lol.
I agree with the silver lining of this, and even though I still wish for squirtle to have better movement speed, I think everything you said applies and especially as a trainer, I dont think that the overall character is bad. That said, I do think that apart from recover, Ivysaur can stand by itself. I dont want to switch the conversation over to ivy, but it's just to say I feel squirtle lacks something in comparison. But other than that, I do want to see if I can come to like the fighting style it might have to take with squirtle. It's not my first choice, but I'd probably go to another character if I want more air speed, I guess.

Alright, you got me. I confused "speed" with "mobility" again.

I still think Squirt has solid aerial mobility, even if that's mostly in jump and drift speed. It'll still do what it needs to by giving him a way of taking advatage of that killer frame data through mix ups and tomahawks, making him a character who is difficult to react to. And I-m not just talking about tomagawk grabs either - tomahawk shielding and jabing are things to. Great vertical air speed also means great vertical combos. He still has good range on his smashes for when the situation calls for that and if he ever needs a burst of horizontal speed for any reason, he still has Withdraw. He may not be Sheik but there's no way he's going to be especially bad either.

Charizard, meanwhile, is still his old, heavy-commitment Smash 4 self. He won't be carrying his teammates, they'll be carrying him, letting him sit on the bench until they need someone to kill or recover with. Otherwise he's combo fodder who can't land. Yeah his juggle game might help him rack up his own damage, but combos are a much more consistent and safer way of doing that. SoloZard was low tier for all of Smash 4 and the only reason people are giving him attention now is that he finally has a way to avoid his weaknesses with that down special. You think Squirt vs Cloud might be a bad matchup? Try being Zard vs a skilled Sheik or Zero Suit Samus, then we can talk. Charizard needs Squirtle to be viable.

Meanwhile Ivysaur seems to lack much in terms of flexibility. She can play defensively very well with those disjoint and Razor Leaf but seems to lack much of an offensive pressence when the situation calls for it. Many of her moves, such as Up Smash, seem pretty situational and don't add much to her versitility, and let's not even mention that laughable recovery. Her defensive game will be fantastic and a welcome addition to the trainer's team but it takes more then a couple good disjoints and a projectile to stand on your own.
You like tomahawks :) Fits with your avatar, in a way.
I dont think there's much lacking with ivysaur. she's so much faster than in brawl too. but again, i dont want to make it about that one. I just think Squirtle could be a bit more balanced as well and do other kinds of mixups. It'll still get predictable with time.

Yeah all three of them certainly have their own pronounced infividual weaknesses, you did a really great job illustrating them.

This is why I think that trying to argue that the pokemon can actually stand on their own is pointless. They all have pronounced weaknesses that arent ever going away... unless you press down b. I feel that though there are some people that want to solo main one of the three, and while there is no problem with that, it should be expresed somewhere that it is just less optimal. The Pokemon Trainer is made to be used with teamwork between all three of them. Definitely not in equal parts though in every matchup, stage, player MU, as well as in game as percents shift, but there is a place for all of them.

In most MUs I do agree with you that charizard would probably be used the least amount of time in a match, but I think he’ll have his time to shine. If people start getting a little too over zealous trying to edgeguard offstage, which is something I see happening due to how the meta has shifted towards that, flare blitz (now stronger and less laggy) is extremely difficult and dangerous to challenge from the air. Just having that deterrent will make recovering as PT alot easier, something I see alot of other characters struggling with as the meta develops. Flamethrower was already a great edgeguarding tool in some MUs, now probably more so with the nerfed ledge grab distance if im not mistaken. That and being able to live long and maybe cheese out a kill on a read with rage will be nice. I think maybe a wise way to play around switching jnto charizard would be to only do it when you are at high percent (so you can just focus on living long and not worry about being comboed), not just if the opponent is at high % and you want to kill. Ivysaur will probably be a safer choice for trying to fish for kills in most matchups, at least if you yourself still have some percent to give.

I think that youre right that Ivysaur won’t be able to play as agressively on command as we would like when a situation asks for it. But on top of the great defensive game I think Ivysaur could potentially play “aggressively” in a similar way to marth, focusing on controlling space and closing in the opponent and restricting them from a relatively safe mid distance. They probably cant pull off rushdown but at least dont have to play campy all the time.

This isnt even about squirtle anymore
hope das koo lol
Well squirtle is part of pkm trainer so ;p
I kind of agree with that it's a good thing if the overall character would be balanced and that each isn't solo-mainable. But the thing is that I dont feel it's the case , it just seems skewed in weird ways at the time. I will definitely still use PT as a secondary or thirdary regardless, but I cant help feeling a bit frustrated with it just because I can see so much fun and potential with just a few minor changes, nothing big at all. And I just hope it does happen. I want to learn to like them in whatever case though :/ as much as I can.
 

R.Y.N.O.

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 12, 2018
Messages
7
#28
I agree with the silver lining of this, and even though I still wish for squirtle to have better movement speed, I think everything you said applies and especially as a trainer, I dont think that the overall character is bad. That said, I do think that apart from recover, Ivysaur can stand by itself. I dont want to switch the conversation over to ivy, but it's just to say I feel squirtle lacks something in comparison. But other than that, I do want to see if I can come to like the fighting style it might have to take with squirtle. It's not my first choice, but I'd probably go to another character if I want more air speed, I guess.



You like tomahawks :) Fits with your avatar, in a way.
I dont think there's much lacking with ivysaur. she's so much faster than in brawl too. but again, i dont want to make it about that one. I just think Squirtle could be a bit more balanced as well and do other kinds of mixups. It'll still get predictable with time.



Well squirtle is part of pkm trainer so ;p
I kind of agree with that it's a good thing if the overall character would be balanced and that each isn't solo-mainable. But the thing is that I dont feel it's the case , it just seems skewed in weird ways at the time. I will definitely still use PT as a secondary or thirdary regardless, but I cant help feeling a bit frustrated with it just because I can see so much fun and potential with just a few minor changes, nothing big at all. And I just hope it does happen. I want to learn to like them in whatever case though :/ as much as I can.
Yeah don't get me wrong I’d love if squirtle got a slight speed buff. Like just enough to open up some more options without invalidating ivysaur. I think squirtle has to be worse than pikachu out of principle that hes one of a team of three, but I’ve totally been noticing some of the same stuff youve been mentioning and it is a little dissatisfying. My hope is just that the meta is in a way where each of the pokemon have a decent size area to shine in, be it their own cluster of MUs where they are preffered over the others or maybe some synergy with specific stages. And I think that will be the case so I really can’t complain. Hopefully the group grows on you I think its gonna be a blast seeing how everyone develops their own style with this character, bc i feel like this one in particular eill have alot of variance. And thanks for conversing with me on this its one of the ways im coping with waiting for this damn game lmao
 

Teeb147

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
8,149
#29
Yeah don't get me wrong I’d love if squirtle got a slight speed buff. Like just enough to open up some more options without invalidating ivysaur. I think squirtle has to be worse than pikachu out of principle that hes one of a team of three, but I’ve totally been noticing some of the same stuff youve been mentioning and it is a little dissatisfying. My hope is just that the meta is in a way where each of the pokemon have a decent size area to shine in, be it their own cluster of MUs where they are preffered over the others or maybe some synergy with specific stages. And I think that will be the case so I really can’t complain. Hopefully the group grows on you I think its gonna be a blast seeing how everyone develops their own style with this character, bc i feel like this one in particular eill have alot of variance. And thanks for conversing with me on this its one of the ways im coping with waiting for this damn game lmao
Heh, well thanks too. and yeah I feel ya.
I hope the character can be played in many styles too. That's one of my concerns because of how I see the characters at the moment, and I think a few small changes could shift that around a lot. But here's hoping that nintendo sees some things to adjust, and if not then just for us to learn to love the potential there either way.
I definitely think that I'll be centering on Ivysaur, but I want to like squirtle a lot too, but yeah I think as a secondary I'm most likely going to be an ivysaur-centric pokemon trainer, even if I want to make use of all of them.

I'll definitely be interested in lots of stuff about the character in whatever case.
 
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Darklink401

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Smashville
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Yuki_Hirako
#30
Fast, quick, small-hurtbox fighters tend to excel, and with Squirtle's great frame data, one of the least laggy grabs (since all grabs were nerfed), and yes, good air mobility, he will actually be the one often carrying the team I'd say. Zard will be good for killing and recovering, maybe even at high %s to avoid death since he's heavy... but I can only see MAYBE Ivysaur being better than Squirtle, if his spacing tools function well in Ultimate's metagame.
 

CostLow

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 8, 2014
Messages
388
Location
Germany
3DS FC
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#31
Just gonna go ahead and say it... every character could be better. I think we sort of have to stop somewhere and allow there to be differences between the roster. If all the characters were perfect then they'd all be skins of one super fighter. We don't want that do we? Squirtle is ok and Pokemon Trainer looks really solid as a whole. I wouldn't let squirtle being out done by Pikachu keep me from using Pkmn Trainer. Now, if you only wanted Pokemon Trainer for squirtle then I guess you have a justifiable complaint, but still. He's not horrible. He's just not great. People have been making not great characters do great things for the life of smash bros so I still wouldn't worry too much (all this coming from a die-hard Link and Young Link main).
 

Teeb147

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
8,149
#33
Hello OP have you considered Squirtle's side b?
What about it? It's not bad when it hits. It's not really useful to move quickly though, since there's so much lag when it doesnt hit.

Ivysaur isn't quite as good as i originally thought, and now I think the 3 pokemon are not great of their own but good as a team. Squirtle has good frame data, so even without the good move speed, it's still a solid hitter. It's just not good for zoning or ko'ing, which is the job of the other 2 :p
 

1FC0

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Messages
1,430
#34
Personally my Ivysaur does much better than my Squirtle. I mained R.O.B. in Smash 4 and SSBB so maybe it is just me because I am used to zoning but going by my gameplay I would say that Ivysaur is better than Squirtle.

I think it is Ivysaur > Charizard > Squirtle if they were stand-alone. However since Charizard is better at recovering, heavier, and better at killing than both other Pokemon I think that Charizard definitely adds a lot of usefulness to the team.
 

SolidShOok

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 10, 2018
Messages
4
#35
What about it? It's not bad when it hits. It's not really useful to move quickly though, since there's so much lag when it doesnt hit.

Ivysaur isn't quite as good as i originally thought, and now I think the 3 pokemon are not great of their own but good as a team. Squirtle has good frame data, so even without the good move speed, it's still a solid hitter. It's just not good for zoning or ko'ing, which is the job of the other 2 :p
Withdraw is a safe on shield move that pops them up. It's an amazing abusable move.
Squirtle's also got the advantage of being Pichu size. He's not the fastest in the game, but he's got the 6th highest air acceleration which is pretty important
 

Teeb147

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
8,149
#36
Personally my Ivysaur does much better than my Squirtle. I mained R.O.B. in Smash 4 and SSBB so maybe it is just me because I am used to zoning but going by my gameplay I would say that Ivysaur is better than Squirtle.

I think it is Ivysaur > Charizard > Squirtle if they were stand-alone. However since Charizard is better at recovering, heavier, and better at killing than both other Pokemon I think that Charizard definitely adds a lot of usefulness to the team.
I find Charizard kind of underwhelming since not much is safe to approach with. Nair is if you dont fast fall it, but it's not overly a good move.

I'm actually back using squirtle the most of them right now, but that's more because of my playstyle, i think.

Withdraw is a safe on shield move that pops them up. It's an amazing abusable move.
Squirtle's also got the advantage of being Pichu size. He's not the fastest in the game, but he's got the 6th highest air acceleration which is pretty important
it's not abusable at high level play because it has a startup so eventually people will see it coming, and it has a lot of end lag when it's dodged.
Air acceleration doesnt amount to as much when air speed isn't great. But the acceleration combined with decent fast fall makes it an alright character, I think. Being small helps a little to get in, but it can still be hard on characters with range because of the speed. Gonna keep at it though, I enjoy the character still.
 
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Augi

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 12, 2018
Messages
67
#37
I would agree that Withdraw is definitely not abusable, but it's certainly not useless either. The important aspect of Withdraw that I focus on is that Squirtle takes Zero damage while its active; making it a very unique move in the game.

I've tried to use it to cover myself on a difficult approach because it's largely risk free in situations where either A) You will hit them B) They will hit you. So really anyone spamming range attacks or charging up a move is somewhat safe, long as you have good aim. The danger is when someone dodges it, especially towards the edge of the stage. Risk of use likely increases as you get into more high level play, but Zero damage is Zero damage. Thats hard to just toss aside I feel.

As for the rest of Squirtle, I'm really disappointed in his Fsmash hitbox. It's sooooo small. It often feels like I'm better off using his Dsmash to hit someone infront of me. That said, I feel like his Aerial game is strong, personally. His moves are very quick and he's good at racking up a bit of damage.
 
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Zachmac

ʇsɐᴉsnɥʇuǝ pɹɐz ʇuǝpᴉsǝɹ
Premium
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Messages
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AbsolBlade
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#38
Has anyone here practice roll cancled dash grabs yet? The Beefy Smash dudes have a video on it, so go watch it now if you haven't yet.

Anyway, this tech really helps Squirtle and is very easy to get down. He's got such a strong combo game out of his grab thats only really held back by his poor grab range and this tech does a lot to improve it. Getting grabs just feels so much easier. Zard also benefits a lot because of his kill throw to, but I still feel like Squirt is the real winner here.
 
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KieRanaRan

Smash Apprentice
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KieRanaRan
#39
I love how Squirtle feels and plays. I find myself using D-throw into fair a lot, it racks up nice damage and then I can let Ivysaur come clean up with a smass or aerial.
 

Wnyke

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
73
#40
I find myself struggling more with charizard. Sure survival has it's bonuses, but finding that killing blow is almost imposible without risking yourself.
Along with all the changes from smash4, I find charizard really weak. No jab2 to grab or fly, utilt is no longer a kill option, fair being worse, dthrow is really hard to combo into anything. The only positive charizard got is nair being faster, so it may be better for edgeguarding. But he lost a lot.

I think the Squirtle has it's purpose of racking damage up, but it's no limited in the killing side. fthrow, bthrow, waterfall, bair, dtilt, withdraw, nair can kill; so you are not forced to rely on smash attacks or switching to get the stock, along with watergun and a good edguard game, Squirtle is Good. It struggles against swords, but you can start the bait and punish game, or use withdraw to get the hit.
Also Squirtle can change directly to Ivysaur, which I believe us the best of the 3.
And switching between the 3 mons to recover makes squirtle recovery the best.
 
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