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Squirtlab (Frames and Facts)

Daftatt

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Random stuff I find in the lab, just want a place to record it all.

Get to the Platform! (PART 1)
from the ground to the platform as fast as possible!

POKEMON STADIUM 2:

Fulljump to Platform: Act on Frame 35
If you try to do anything prior to frame 35 you're going to input an aerial action or just immediately enter the landing animation (which will add a lot of frames before you can act), frame 35 is the first frame which you can execute a grounded action.

Immediate Doublejump to Platform Land: Doublejump frame 5, Air Dodge frame 16, Act on Frame 27
I suggest using tapjump to input the doublejump after the 4 frames of jumsquat
:GCX:frame1 ... 3 frames... :GCU:frame 5 ... 10 frames ...
....:GCRT:(:GCD:) frame 16 ... 10 frames... ACT! frame 27

To get the doublejump immediately following the jumpsquat I suggest using tapjump.
The only problem you might have with this method is the air dodge.

Air dodging on frame 16 is a FRAME PERFECT input in order to get the land immediately. If you are still holding up you will of course air dodge up past the platform. I suggest instead trying to broaden the execution window by air dodging down (which will still work on frame 16 and will prevent you from airdodging up by accidentally holding the tap jump input, so I say always do it).

If you want to check if you're being frame perfect you could try hitting airdodge without a direction, if you land you'll know it was exactly frame 16 (assuming you have the immediate doublejump down) since on any other frame you wouldn't trigger landing detection without stalling in the air dodge animation.

So within 10 frames of hitting up on the control stick to tap-jump, cross the neutral to the south side of the gate. This will let you get a fast land even if you are late to input airdodge on frame 16. If you airdodge on frame 17 but hold down you will only be adding a frame before you can act so it's a good way to compensate.

So if you hit the airdodge on frame 17 or 18 you will only add 1 or 2 frames respectively before you can act. If you hit airdodge 3 frames late, on frame 19, you'll start to add more frames due to traveling in the air dodge animation down to the platform instead of immediately landing. Air dodging down on frame 19 will instead add 4 frames before you can act since you are 3 frames late and it takes 1 frame to travel to the platform landing.

So the input window for :GCRT::GCD: (assuming a frame perfect doublejump, easy) is 3 frames 16, 17, 18.


BATTLEFIELD:

Fulljump to Lower Platforms: Act on Frame 35 (same as PS2)


Immediate Doublejump to Lower Platforms: Act on Frame 28 (one frame later than PS2)
So a small variation here in platform height between the lower BF platforms and the PS2 platforms. The BF lower platforms are just barely lower than PS2's, so airdodging on frame 16 will be too low to trigger landing detection. Instead airdodge on frame 17 is the soonest you can land, however you have to hold :GCD: with your airdodge since airdodging without direction will put you too high to trigger landing detection. You should generally hold down anyways.

Doublejump to Top Platform: Doublejump Frame 13, Act on Frame 39
If you're late on your doublejump input you be able to act out several frames later since you would have gone higher and will have to wait for squirtle to spin in the air and to trigger landing.

Frame 14 doublejump: Act out on frame 43
Frame 15 doublejump: Act out on frame 47

If you Doublejump on frame 16 or later you'll go too high above the platform and will trigger a normal landing animation and (on frame 16) you won't be able to act until frame 53 after landing. You can compensate for this small 3 frame execution window by air dodging down once you jump past the platform, thereby forcing the landing animation. Late doublejumps (frame 14 and on) can land quickly enough to be able to act out around 42-45 frames after the initial jump input.

This means that unless you are nailing that frame 13 doublejump it's best to just doublejump late then airdodge down to force the landing animation on the top platform.

WARIOWARE:

Warioware's bottom platforms are too low to get that nice "no landing collision animation" fullhops. If you just fullhop on the platform you'll be forced to normally land and won't be able to use a ground action until frame 41. This means you ALWAYS want to use the immediate doublejump + air dodge downwards to get onto them as soon as possible.

Immediate Doublejump to Lower Platforms: Air dodge down on frame 15, Act on Frame 26 (one frame sooner than PS2)

Doublejump to Top Platform: Doublejump frame 11, Act on frame 40

The height of the top platform means that squirtle will be at an bad part of the doublejump animation and his landing detection won't trigger until about 10 frames after he is above the platform, this means that doublejumping later than frame 11, which will actually breach the top platform quicker, then forcing the landing collision with airdodge down on average is the quickest way to the top.

Doublejump to top platform: Doublejump frame 14, Airdodge frame 27, Act on frame 38
since doublejump climbs quickest in the beginning of the animation you can breach the top platform quicker if you wait to doublejump until frame 13 and after

end transmission...
 
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Wave Dan Landon

It's simple; we gimp the fox
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Wow, that's in depth, it's cool seeing melee level consideration of a character's meta

I like your stuff, it gives me a feel for the finer points of the PM engine
 

Jamwa

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keep it up daft@

have you considered looking into aerial interrupts? don't think i've ever accidentally pulled one off with squirtle but i think it would be possible
 

Daftatt

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Captains log second entry: What stages to pick against ROB.

The smaller the better, your main goal is to rack up damage then kill-setup and avoid the offstage. Rob is one of those characters that squirtle is best off not trying to gimp, and always be very cautious when edgeguarding him. Your best kill options are: Reverse hydroplane U-smash, D-throw, F-throw+Fair, F-throw Aquajet.

Optimally you want Yoshi's Story for a starter, but a smart opponent will always ban it. You will always want to ban Dreamland, PS2, and either Battlefield or Smashville as those are all the largest stages where you will kill latest.

  • If you have a solid platform game (wavelanding out of slingjump and everything) then go for Battlefield. You can punish getups on platforms with aquajet for early kills, same with up-smash and d-throw if you can get onto the platform quick enough to get into a standing animation (some tips here).

  • If you aren't as comfortable moving around the tri-platform setup, pick Smashville. The moving platform can net you some early kills off the side while it's hovering over offstage. And it also allows squirtle to easily get around the spinner while navigating the stage.

That leaves you with starting on either Green Hill Zone, Distant Planet, Battlefield, Smashville, or Yoshi's Story (unlikely).

small blast zones for early kills is your stage striking motto, remember ROB is light.

If you lose the first match, his 3 bans should probably be the smallest stages: Yoshi's Story, Wario Ware, Green Hill Zone, or Fountain of Dreams. Pick whichever one he doesn't ban, with Yoshi's Story and Wario Ware being the best (smallest).

This means you should really only ever play on either Yoshi's Story, Battlefield, Fountain of Dreams, Wario Ware, Green Hill Zone, Distant Planet, or Smashville when fighting a ROB.

Here's a taste of your kill options on Greenhill Zone:
tested from the middle of the stage, meaning the closer you are to either blast zone the smaller the listed kill % needs to be.
all damages fresh, all kill %s pre-throw/hit
//you could always try and kill high up on the stage with Waterfall, but this is easy to DI out of so use it sparingly only as a surprise mixup when the opponent has escaped your juggles.
  • D-throw (14 dmg):
    • kills off the top at 123% with best DI (NW/NE)
    • kills off the side at 120% with no DI
    • kills off the side at 88% with worst DI (SE/SW).

  • F-throw into Fair (6 + 13 dmg):
    • Kills at 137% with best DI (NW/NE) off the top
    • kills at 98% with no DI off the side
    • kills at 78% with worst DI (SE/SW) off the side
// F-throw is the DI trap for D-throw

  • F-throw into Aquajet (6 + 15 dmg):
    • Kills at 88% worst DI (Towards) off the top
    • Kills at 88% no DI off the top
    • Kills at 103% best DI (Away) off the top
// guaranteed at 88% and up, F-throw animation takes 32 frames, ROB is in hitstun for 39 frames. To connect at earliest possible percent timing needs to be precise. The throw animation ends with 23 frames of hitstun left. Jump toward the opponent, then 8 frames later doublejump toward the opponent, then 8 frames later aquajet (side-B). When attempting at higher percents simply increase the delay between the doublejump and the aquajet input

  • Reverse Hydroplane Up Smash: :GCL:+:GCR:(shellshift), :GCX:(jump frame 1-3 of SS), :GCU:+:GCA: (up-smash on frame 1-4 of jumpsquat)

// RHUS: measured with connecting both hits, if you miss the first hit all kill percents are 3% higher

    • No Charge (17 dmg):
      • Kills off top at 101% best DI (Towards)
      • kills off top at 91% no DI

    • Quarter Charge(hold A 17 frames) (18 dmg):
      • kills off top at 92% best DI (Towards)
      • kills off top at 84% no DI

    • Half Charge (hold A 27 frames) (19 dmg):
      • kills off top at 90% best DI (Towards)
      • kills off top at 82% no DI

    • Full charge (hold A 44 frames) (23 dmg):
      • kills off top at 67% best DI (Towards)
      • kills off top at 59% no DI

I'm too lazy to gather all the data for the other stage's boundaries so I'll extrapolate to them based on the blast zone comparrissons with Green Hill Zone.
Green Hill Zone's stage and blast zones are outlined in Red over the images of the other stages.

Battlefield:

Lower ceilings so earlier best DI kills on D-throw and Fair, wider sides so later worst DI kills on D-throw and Fair

Yoshi's Story

Smaller blastzones all around, earlier everything, but especially off the top kills. D-throw and aquajet kill extremely early here nomatter DI.

Distant Planet

This is a great stage for squirtle mostly due to how much space he has to move around. Notice that you the main platform extends towards it's blast zones further than GHZ's, however the blast zones on the sides are much wider. This means that kills from the center of the stage will come much later, however kills from the edges of the stage will come at around the same times as GHZ. Also the ceiling is lower so good DIs on Fair/D-throw will die earlier.

Smashville

Similar to Distant planet in the contrast with GHZ, however the blast zones are less wide, while the moving platform extends way out towards the side blast zones. Kills on this platform come extremely early, particularly off the top with good DI on D-throw or Fair. Use this platform well to get kill setups, and to avoid ROB's spinner when he tries to clear you off the main stage.


Almost the exact same kill percentages as GHZ. Utilize squirtle's small body to weave under the platforms when they are barely raised: Wavedash off one end to aquajet back underneith. Use them for platform poking with RHUS and up-tilt, along with for securing aquajet punishes when your opponent is in a getup situation on the platform. If you can master the timings of the platforms raising and lowering you can potentially get a platform to raise up while you are grabbing ROB, making a potential D-throw kill come much earlier than normally.


Probably the easiest stage to get kills on rob with. The platforms are amazing for trapping opponents, Rob will usually drop his spinner down to the center of the stage from them (since he is avoiding getting grabbed). Poke at him with u-air until he comes down, and if you are feeling dangerous maybe a waterfall. Aquajet getup punishes are great on this stage since landing grabs is a little more tough.
 
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Wave Dan Landon

It's simple; we gimp the fox
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Thanks for the write up to help out with my ROB issue.

You go crazy overboard, but it's much appreciated.
 

Daftatt

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Invincible actions have a 13 frame window to execute, for instance with grab you'll have a 6 frame margin of error in your perfect ledge dash inputs while still getting out your standing grab-box while invincible.

Ledgesnap: 8 frames
Fall: 1 frame
Doublejump: 2 frames
Air Dodge: 3 frames

Landing: 10 frames
Actionable Invincibility: 13 frames

Execution Tips:
You'll usually waste the most frames on missing the first frame that ledge snap is over to drop. A good visual cue is that spark graphic from when you connect with the stage, by the last frame of the ledgesnap (AKA the first frame of CliffWait) the graphic has entirely dissipated. Use this pulse of light to guide your timing for the drop.
Input the drop from ledge and then the doublejump as closely as possible together to make sure squirtle falls as little as possible. This not only ensures you almost will never kill yourself with air-dodge (assuming you wait more than 1 frame before airdodging and don't go south of the ledgedash angle).

The timing between the drop and doublejump and the airdodge angle are the main things to get consistently, that way you'll at least avoid the tournament winner SD.

Any lateness after the doublejump will just tick off frames that you're invincible while actionable but you'll almost always be able to get in a grab (out in 7 frames), f-tilt (out in 4-frames), and of course jab (out in 2-frames) while still having a room for error of several frames.
 
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Daftatt

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Aiming Waterfall
EDIT: this is unfinished... meh (expecting this moved to be changed)


There is a method of input for waterfall to make it very difficult to DI out of. It can be aimed more upwards, or more forwards

The way people DI waterfall, at least smartly, is dependent on their positioning above squirtle when he goes for the waterfall kill.



If you are more above squirtle when he attempts a waterfall kill, it's best to DI :GCUL:(Up-Towards) to, in the example of the gif above, have waterfall knock you more up and to the left so the waterfall hitboxes would miss you and continue past on your right side. To counter this squirtle should aim waterfall straight up for the whole animation.

If you are more at a 45 degree angle above and to the right of squirtle you'll try and DI :GCDR: (Down-Away) to make waterfall shoot you out at a lower upwards angle than waterfall is travelling, thereby escaping. To counter this DI squirtle should aim waterfall all forwards the.

Important to note is that at the very beginning of

Experiment with different aiming with waterfall for mixups to keep it a potent kill option in the face of SDI and DI!
 
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TheGravyTrain

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Just was in the lab with squirtle and got curious about wall clings (and it is pretty broken). Well, apparently squirtle has a ledgestall. I think this is new to 3.5 because of the abilitiy to grab ledge with the withdraw cancel, but I still feel like I vaguely heard somewhere that someone already discovered this.

Essentially, you grab the ledge, input down and hold on frame 8, on the 6th frame of fastfall input to the right, immediately input a walljump, on the 4th frame of walljump input side b, and on the 7th frame of side b cancel it. I tried to do this on Distant Planet (my favorite overall stage that I feel great with Squirtle), but was having issues trying to find the right amount of FF time. I went to Wario Ware and that is the only place I have tested it. 6 frames of fastfall is right around the first "box" in WarioWare's wall design. This stall seems very strenuous and technical considering the amount of inputs (and the margin for error). I haven't really tested the maximums and minimums on any of these inputs.

Before I really tried that though, I also was experimenting with wall jump to instant withdraw. I can't remember the exact number of frames, but I feel like I remember it giving you around 10ish frames of invincible withdraw while onstage. To the inside edge of WarioWare's platform iirc. Essentially, the inputs are grab ledge,let go of ledge for 1 frame, cling wall for 1 frame, wall jump for 4 frames, and input side b. It lets you go a decent way. I think its a good off the ledge mixup with ledge dash --> attack and ledge dash --> shield.
 

Daftatt

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Just was in the lab with squirtle and got curious about wall clings (and it is pretty broken). Well, apparently squirtle has a ledgestall. I think this is new to 3.5 because of the abilitiy to grab ledge with the withdraw cancel, but I still feel like I vaguely heard somewhere that someone already discovered this.

Essentially, you grab the ledge, input down and hold on frame 8, on the 6th frame of fastfall input to the right, immediately input a walljump, on the 4th frame of walljump input side b, and on the 7th frame of side b cancel it. I tried to do this on Distant Planet (my favorite overall stage that I feel great with Squirtle), but was having issues trying to find the right amount of FF time. I went to Wario Ware and that is the only place I have tested it. 6 frames of fastfall is right around the first "box" in WarioWare's wall design. This stall seems very strenuous and technical considering the amount of inputs (and the margin for error). I haven't really tested the maximums and minimums on any of these inputs.

Before I really tried that though, I also was experimenting with wall jump to instant withdraw. I can't remember the exact number of frames, but I feel like I remember it giving you around 10ish frames of invincible withdraw while onstage. To the inside edge of WarioWare's platform iirc. Essentially, the inputs are grab ledge,let go of ledge for 1 frame, cling wall for 1 frame, wall jump for 4 frames, and input side b. It lets you go a decent way. I think its a good off the ledge mixup with ledge dash --> attack and ledge dash --> shield.
I call it the crummie stall

http://smashboards.com/threads/squirtle-squad-general-disc.331682/page-48#post-18149796
 
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Daftatt

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squirtle has bad tech rolls (short and slow), luckily he is very slippery, so if the move that sends you into the ground has a bit of a horizontal vector you can not tech and slide away to safety (no-tech slide fox's shine for a free escape to the ledge).

However when you don't have enough lateral movement to escape via no-tech slide you'll definitely want to tech to avoid getting reset or worse.

His best option is standard getup into spotdodge (assuming the opponent didn't misread for a roll and you're free). Squirtle's spotdodge is actually pretty dope. It comes out frame 2 and invulnerability lasts for 14 frames with 7 frames endlag. That means if you perfect spot-dodge in place you are invulnerable for 14/(14+8) or 63% of the time. They have an 8 frame window or 133ms window to hit you.

Perfect-spotdodging is a great mixup to escape a grab followup and your best escape is, as always, to shellshift away if the opponent whiffs.
 
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TheGravyTrain

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What do you do to tech chase Spacies. I am preparing to go to my first tournament and decided to practice combos on more diverse CPU's (I know, bad, yadda yadda). Against the fox/falcon, everything was a tech chase at low percents. Since the CPU's don't mix up techs at all, I turned to debug mode to test some low percent throw set ups. I would like to discuss my findings, but since I am rather new I don't know how much people already know.

I tried structuring it like the 20GX tech chase. In that Falcon set up, Gravy relies on a 15 frame reaction time. I don't know how feasible that is, but I just went with that number. I can walk frame by frame if anybody wants, but basically, you react to tech in place and grab, miss tech and up smash, tech in and hydrograb, and tech away and a number of options out of super rar (among the best are dair, down b, bair, Nair, and maybe neutral b). I am still working on the best tech away option, I think it might be dair.
 

Daftatt

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Edgeguarding Ivysaur from the forced-tether hop
which is 50 frames according to dirtboy, I'm operating off that number but I didn't check it, sounds right to me though

Ivy suffers from what is called "option collapse", since when below the ledge her only means of recovering are tether, and if you edgehog the tether she only has 2 options from the ledgehop, really 3 since she can fade forwards, backwards, or none at all. However any option that covers forward or backwards also covers no fade at all so we can ignore that as a viable strategy.

squirtle has no move that can cover both the fadeback hop and the ontostage hop in a way that guarantees death, some characters do, but squirtle has poor range on his aerials. Nair is too small to cover both options from 1 position, dair CAN but is easy to SDI and won't send ivy back offstage (so not very useful to close out an edgeguard), uair hits up (also not useful).

dirtboy: 50 frames man, You can react
EXCELLENT POINT! however,

I don't know about you guys, but I can't on reaction tell if she is going fadeback hop or onstage hop within the first several frames of her hop animation

they both have initial change of mostly vertical position, very ambiguous, especially for the human eye, so if you go for an option immediately upon Ivy hopping you most likely won't for sure know which option she has chosen.

Nair is the best option for covering the fadeback hop due to the low angle...

dirtboy: If she hops forward you can still reverse nair
EXCELLENT POINT! however,

It's a totally reasonable mistake to try and cover the onstage hop too early (because you could not disambiguate which direction the hop was going to go) with nair, only to have her fade back instead, and due to nair's small size, you fail to cover her tether hop option-select.

It's only unambigously clear that ivysaur has chosen either fadeback or onstage hop several frames into the animation, at which point you have either committed to an option (and can no longer cover both of her hops), or, assuming she goes onto stage, your window for getting that reverse hit nair to send her back off decreases quickly. Squirtle has to drop from ledge and fall an certain distance as to not doublejump over ivysaur (as in too high to be in position to reverse hit) depending on where she is at during her tether hop arc, which again, is determined by when you have unambiguously determined she is going onto stage and have decided to act. If you hit ivy from above with the nair and still get the reverse hit, SDI to tech the stage becomes very easy for her, but to get underneath her (a much more difficult position to SDI-tech) would require you to have chosen to cover the onstage hop earlier while she is still high in the arc.There may be a few frames where you can decide unambiguously where her ending position will be and still have enough time to cover either option, but it's a lot less than 50 frames

when you react matters, if she fades back then yes, 50 frames allow you to position Nair to hit her at a low angle offstage and she will likely die (or retether), though if you are not immediate in covering the tether hop onto stage she can SDI to tech with quarter-circle SDI + ASDI even if you get the nair in because she will be close to touching the stage (easy to SDI tech from that position)

My "easy strategy" involves Fair

Fair is very quick (frame 5) and can be used on reaction for the tether hop onto stage, it covers the whole arc of her jump and sends at a fairly high angle across the stage if she DIs up, in which case ivy may not suffer enough horizontal KB to cross the entirety of the stage, and this means that the edgeguard is over (because she doesn't go offstage) unless you can hit her on the decent which is a whole other series of plays and counter-plays and is outside the scope of this post.

my most consistent strategy is simply to wait at the ledge until I know for sure if it's a fade back hop or onto-stage hop. If it's a fadeback hop your window for covering it is much larger since you don't have to worry about proximity to stage in regards to SDI-tech, which is why fadeback hop sucks (except in the situation where you commit to cover the ontsage hop too early). If ivy goes onto stage I can easily land Fair to send her across the stage, at which point I wavesling across (fastest way to cover ground) the stage and continue the edgeguard on the other side.

The only problem with this strategy is that it requires Ivy to be of sufficient percentage to be knocked offstage on the other side, luckily if they tether hop onto stage they are holding forward and it becomes difficult to DI fair upwards, if they don't change their input they DI forwards and receive enough horizontal KB to go across the stage at much earlier percents (around 60%)

a potential option that could cover the onstage hop later in the window than reverse hit nair (giving you more time to disambiguate her hop direction), ledgedash takes 16 frames (1 drop, 2 doublejump, 3 airdodge, 10 landing) and F-smash comes out frame 11, actually frame 15 for the strong disjoint hit with which you'll likely be connecting.

That is 31 frames to ledgedash into f-smash ivysaur, giving you 19 frames to decide if she is going onto stage, which is a good size window.

Though, F-smash causes 8-6 frames of hitlag, which is the SDI window... Ivy could still quarter circle SDI to the ground in that time

ehh, f-tilt has the same hitlag, and bair only has 1 less (5 frames)

though f-tilt comes out frame 4! Which means if I ledgedash f-tilt ivysaur back offstage I have a disambiguation window of 11 more frames!

which would be 30 FRAMES to read her hop direction! which is super lenient

though f-tilt has low BKB and high KB growth, so f-tilt would knock ivy a good distance only at higher percentages, roughly greater than70%

F-smash has great BKB (46) so would send ivy a much greater distance offstage at low-mid percents

the thing about smash that I've learned over the years, at high level, pretty much nothing is guaranteed with good SDI from your opponent, which is why chaingrabs are so important at higher levels in melee

But in summary, nair has the highest reward to connect (due to the low angle it would send ivy back offstage) of any option that could cover either hop onstage or fadeback hop.

However, nair to cover onstage hop (getting the reverse hit) is a tight window due to the several frames (8-12) you have to drop from ledge for your doublejump to position you under ivysaur after coming over the ledge, then 6 frames for the move to come out. Ivy can't be very close to the ground when you nair or you can't position to get the reverse hit and cleanly put her back offstage (if you jump over ivy to fall on the stage side of her, the angle nair sends her could easily be DId down to a tech).

A more reliable, less dependent of ivy's positioning, option to hit her back offstage from the onstage tether hop would be ledgedash into f-smash at low-mid percents, or ledgedash into f-tilt at higher percents
 
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TheGravyTrain

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What about ledge drop drift in Nair to cover no drift/drift in ff land? Then, react to drift behind and waveland back to the ledge, resetting the situation. All in theory, haven't tested, just a thought.
 

Daftatt

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What about ledge drop drift in Nair to cover no drift/drift in ff land? Then, react to drift behind and waveland back to the ledge, resetting the situation. All in theory, haven't tested, just a thought.
that is definitely a thing, nair from the ledge can be wavelanded back if you fade onto stage (so sexy), I'm not totally sure it would reset the situation since hitting ivysaur back offstage is the key to ending her stock, but I'll test it out!
 
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TheGravyTrain

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Actually, I was saying to use a late Nair for no drift and drift in, but if they fade back, don't Nair at all and just waveland back to the ledge. It wouldn't work for Zamus because she has wall jump tricks that can mess with it.
 
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