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WoL Spirits: Stats and Trait/Skill/Style Multipliers

CanvasK

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 4, 2019
Messages
27
Been working on this for a few months, and I finally got it to the point that I'm happy with sharing it. I've compiled all (1379) Spirits, their lv.1 and lv.MAX stats, traits/skills, etc. (except for how to obtain them, most of that is posted elsewhere and I don't want to manually collect it). This spreadsheet is all about data. There is nothing saying if a Spirit or Spirit combination is good or not (see Regezerem's post for that), just the raw data. snjwffl's post already goes over the main meat of Spirits. I've gone a bit further and included Styles and expanded on the stacking of Abilities, however I will be borrowing formatting from them for consistency.

Spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jbc61DIoFXWyYpO9zT7080jNfO9_Y30OcCFz1w1voqI/edit?usp=sharing

Reading the sheet
For condensed versions of Style and Ability data, use the 'Styles' or 'Abilities' pages; for test data, use the respective ones ending in 'Test'.
In the 'Test' pages you will have the Ability followed by stacks, notes, Spirit tested, relevant stat multiplier, Fighter used, attack used, base damage, Spirit boosted damage, tested damage, then the estimated multiplier. Stacks are separated by a comma, and if the stack requires and enhanced Spirit, it is placed on a second line.
Some abilities are shown as 1/stack, this is because it is easier for me to implement it in other areas. For example, many Resistance abilities are 1/.6, .55, .5. This is because I treat it as a Defense modifying ability, making it part of [Style_Defense_Multiplier]. If you instead treat as an Attack modifying ability (as a [Style_Attack_Multiplier]), then you can ignore the 1/stack and just use stack.


Formula
Code:
[Damage] = [Base_Damage] × ( ([Attack_Mult] × [Style_Attack_Multiplier] × [Trait_Attack_Multiplier] × [Skill_Attack_Multiplier]) / ([Defense_Mult] × [Style_Defense_Multiplier] × [Trait_Defense_Multiplier] × [Skill_Defense_Multiplier]) ) × [Type_Multiplier]
  • [Base_Damage], the damage a move does without Spirits
  • [Attack_Mult] & [Defense_Mult], multipliers for Attack and Defense, respectively. Determined below
  • [Style_Attack_Multiplier] & [Style_Defense_Multiplier], multipliers determined by Styles
  • [Trait_Attack_Multiplier] & [Trait_Defense_Multiplier], multipliers for a non-enhanced Spirit's relevant Trait multiplier
  • [Skill_Attack_Multiplier] & [Skill_Defense_Multiplier], combined multipliers of Support Spirit's and enhanced Spirit's relevant Skill multipliers
  • [Type_Multiplier]
    • 1.3 for Type Advantage (e.g. Grab attacking Shield)
    • 0.85 for Type Disadvantage (e.g. Shield defending Grab)
    • 1 for everything else


Attack Stat (Atk) and Defense Stat(Def)
Atk and Def are the numbers found under your Primary Spirit
Atk and Def are multiplied by 1.1 if the Primary Spirit is from the same series as the fighter. If you modify your team before a match and have fighter selected that has a matching series, your stats on the stat screen will have the Series Bonus (SB) applied.
Atk and Def are capped at 10,000 after being boosted by SB (the stat screen can show >10,000, but calculations are capped at 10,000)
Atk and Def, during leveling, are always integers (whole numbers). However, with SB they are floats (have decimals). This is hardly noticeable without multiple attacks
Code:
[Attack_Mult] = 1 + (Atk × 0.4 / 1000)
[Defense_Mult] = 1 + (Def × 0.6 / 1000)
Items use an Atk multiplier of 0.15 instead of 0.4, and Final Smashes use 0.1
Assist Trophies use the standard 0.4

Traits & Skills
Traits are only found on Primary Spirits
Skills are found on Support Spirits and Primary Spirits that have been enhanced


Stacking
When you have multiple of one Skill, will increase the level of that Skill's multiplier (level will be denoted as <level>). In most cases, a Skill's multiplier will be
×1.1, a second level will be 1.18 (+.08), third 1.26 (+.08), then 1.3 (+.04).
Different Skills do not increase each other's levels, they will multiply straight across. Example Fist Attack ↑ gives ×1.1 and Fire Attack ↑ gives ×1.1, together you get 1.1×1.1 = 1.21.

Traits do not count as another level towards Skills, they will instead multiply together.
A Fist Attack ↑ Trait (*1.1 fist) and a Fist Attack Skill (×1.1 fist) will not give 2 copies of Fist Attack (×1.18 fist). They will instead multiply; 1.1 × 1.1 = 1.21.
Similarly, Skills will only count as another level if they have the same name, otherwise they will multiply together.
Weapon Attack ↑ (×1.1 weapon) and Weapon Attack & Move Speed ↑ (×1.1 weapon) will not give 2 copies of Weapon Attack ↑ (×1.18 weapon), instead multiplying; 1.1 × 1.1 = 1.21.

As such, having a variety of different Traits and Skills will give you greater multipliers in most cases (one exception being defense from Armor Knight, going from ×1.8 -> ×2.6, requiring a multiplier of >×1.444 to beat stacking). Physical attackers have more options here because anything affected by Fist Attack or Foot Attack is also affected by Physical Attack; weapon attackers only get Weapon Attack.

There is a hidden mechanic when stacking attack multipliers that affect the same category (eg Weapon, Electric, Generic), this does not affect defense multipliers. When the category's stacked multiplier is greater than a certain amount, it is decreased. There are actually 3 thresholds that a multiplier can go through:
Code:
Multiplier < 1.3:
     Nothing, acts as expected
Multiplier ≥ 1.3 and Multiplier < 1.5:
     (Multiplier/2) + 0.65
Multiplier ≥ 1.5:
     (Multiplier/5) + 1.2
There is one exception to these rules and that is Poison Power Up which has a base attack multiplier of 1.6, much higher than the thresholds. It will still have a 1.6 multiplier and follows (Multiplier/4) + 1.2, still leading to additional multipliers being above 1.6 but at not as great of an impact.
It isn't likely that you will encounter this mechanic unless you have a build that is specialized for one kind of damage, or you use risky builds with high Generic damage (Generic affects all attacks, not just swords, specials, etc.). The easiest way to experience this mechanic is to use Trade-Off Attacks ↑ with almost any other Generic multiplier such as Trade-Off Ability ↑, normally the multiplier is 1.23×1.18 = 1.4514 but you will instead get 1.3757.

Multipliers

Below are the Traits and then Skills of every Spirit. These will be ordered the same way they are ordered in game when using Sort By: Trait/Skill. If an Ability has multiple effects, the effects will be on a new line below it. DLC only Abilities are indicated with italics and an underline (ex Item Autograb)
Damage Dealt
Damage Received
Defense
Weight
Speed
Jump
(Spoilers are used because there are a lot to go through)

Rich (BB code):
---Attacks
Fist Attack ↑             ×1.1
Foot Attack ↑             ×1.1
Strong Throw              ×1.1
Sword Attack ↑            ×1.1
Magic Attack ↑            ×1.1
PSI Attack ↑              ×1.1
Fire Attack ↑             ×1.1
Water Attack ↑            ×1.1
Electric Attack ↑         ×1.1
Shooting Items Power ↑    ×1.1
Battering Items Power ↑   ×1.1
---Others
Weight ↑                  ×1.1
                          ×0.8
Weight ↓                  ×0.8
                          ×1.4
Speed ↑                   ×1.1
Speed ↓                   ×0.9
Jump ↑                    ×1.1 Jump
Jump ↓                    ×0.9 Jump
Fire Weakness             ×1.2
Water Weakness            ×1.2
Electric Weakness         ×1.2
Initial Damage 30%        +30% damage
Bane of Light             ×1.5
                          ×1.3
Bane of Darkness          ×1.5
                          ×1.3

Skills will be further divided into their "category", this is determined by the symbol to the left of their name (eg a sword, shield, boot, etc.). Different <levels> will be separated by a comma (,). There are up to 4 levels for each Skill, however only up to the highest possible in game will be listed (eg Running Start only lists 2 levels).

Rich (BB code):
Fist Attack ↑                  ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26
Foot Attack ↑                  ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26
Physical Attack ↑              ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26, 1.3
Air Attack ↑                   ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26 (Aerials only)
Strong Throw                   ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26
Weapon Attack ↑                ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26
Shooting Attack ↑              ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26
Dash Attack ↑                  ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26, 1.3
                               ×1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4
Hyper Smash Attacks            ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26
                               ×1.2, 1.375, 1.5 Charge Speed
Neutral Special ↑              ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26
Side Special ↑                 ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26
Up Special ↑                   ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26
Down Special ↑                 ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26
Special-Move Power             ×1.05, 1.13, 1.17
Aura Attack ↑                  ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26
Magic Attack ↑                 ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26, 1.3
PSI Attack ↑                   ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26
Fire & Explosion Attack ↑      ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26, 1.3
Water & Ice Attack ↑           ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26
Electric Attack ↑              ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26
Energy-Shot Attack ↑           ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26
Toss & Meteor                  ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26, 1.3
Shield Damage ↑                ×1.2, 1.45, 1.7, 1.9 Shield Damage
Giant Killer                   ×1.4, 1.45, 1.5, 1.55
Metal Killer                   ×1.4, 1.45, 1.5, 1.55
Assist Killer                  ×1.3, 1.4, 1.5
Critical Hit ↑                 ×1.2
                               5%, 10%, 15% Chance
Impact Run                     +3-5, 6-10, 9-15, 12-20 Deals minimum damage after the initial dash animation, 
                                                       scales up to maximum damage over 30 frames
Rich (BB code):
Shield Durability ↑           ×1.4, 1.7, 1.9 Shield Health
Easier Perfect Shield         +2f, 3f, 4f
Perfect-Shield Reflect        ×1.2 Reflect
Air Defense ↑                 ×1.3, 1.38, 1.46
Weapon Resist ↑               ×0.6
Aura Resist ↑                 ×0.6. 0.55, 0.5
Magic Resist ↑                ×0.6. 0.55, 0.5
PSI Resist ↑                  ×0.6. 0.55, 0.5
Fire/Explosion Resist ↑       ×0.6. 0.55, 0.5, 0.5
Water/Freezing Resist ↑       ×0.6. 0.55, 0.5, 0.5
Electric Resist ↑             ×0.6. 0.55, 0.5
Energy-Shot Resist ↑          ×0.6. 0.55, 0.5
Slow Super Armor              ×0.3
                              ×0.5
                              Resist up to 120 units of knockback
Super Armor                   Resist up to 120 units of knockback
Unflinching Charged Smashes   Resist up to 120 units of knockback
Rich (BB code):
Autoheal                   Heal 3.0% damage every 5 seconds
Great Autoheal             Heal 5.0% damage every 5 seconds
Healing Shield             Heal <incoming damage>/8
KOs Heal Damage            Heal 20% damage when you gain a point (KO, AT KO, Special Flag)
Critical-Health Healing    Heal 50%, 75% when you reach 100+% damage
Lifesteal                  Heal 3*<damage>/100, does not work on projectiles
Rich (BB code):
Move Speed ↑             ×1.2, 1.4, 1.6
Braking Ability          ×1/(0.475, 0.3, 0.2) (~= ×2, 3, 5) Friction
                         (Tested with shield sliding. Results may vary)
Lightweight              ×1.3, 1.6, 1.9, 2.2
                         ×1.4, 1.8, 2.2, 2.6
                         ×0.9, 0.8, 0.7, 0.6
Jump ↑                   ×1.4, 1.8, 2.2, 2.6
Floaty Jumps             ×1/(1.5, 1.6, 1.75, 1.9) Fall Speed
                         ×0.8 Fast Fall Speed
                         (Fall Speed has ugly numbers because gravity and weight make testing against characters difficult,-
                         so fall time was used. Fast Fall ignores gravity and weight)
Additional Midair Jump   +1, 2 jumps
Landing Lag ↓            ×0.75, 0.65, 0.55 Landing Lag time
Easier Dodging           ×1.2, 1.4, 1.6 Intagibility time
                         +50, 75, 125 units Dodge Distance (Test is a little iffy)
Instadrop                3 damage during fall, 6 damage on landing
                         ×2.85 Fast Fall Speed
Rich (BB code):
Battering Items ↑            ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26, 1.3
Shooting Items ↑             ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26, 1.3
Thrown Items ↑               ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26, 1.3
Item Gravitation             Affect items within roughly 425 units

Beam Sword Equipped          You start the match with the item listed
|                            You start with the item in Support slot 1-
|                            then start stock 2 with what is in slot 2-
Fairy Bottle Equipped        and so on. After the last slot, you start with no items.

--"Transformations"
  The following are given at the start of a match
  Duration of picked up "transformations" is not affected
  Transformation Duration ↑ affects all of them
Made of Metal                13, 26, 39 seconds
Mouthful of Curry            12, 24 seconds
Bunny Hood Equipped          12, 24, 36 seconds
Back Shield Equipped         30, 60, 90 seconds
Franklin Badge Equipped      23, 46 seconds
Super Leaf Equipped          25, 50, 75 seconds
Rocket Belt Equipped         25, 50, 75 seconds
Screw Attack Equipped        18 seconds
--End "Transformations"

Stats ↑ after Eating         ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26
                             ×1.3, 1.38, 1.46
                             ×1.2, 1.3, 1.4
                             5, 6, 7 seconds
Stats ↑↑ after Eating        ×1.18, 1.26
                             ×1.38, 1.46
                             ×1.35, 1.5
                             7, 8 seconds
Invincibility after Eating   4 seconds
Hammer Duration              ×2 duration (8.5 sec -> 17)
Rich (BB code):
Poison Damage Reduced      ×0.4, 0.1, 0.0 Poison damage
Poison Immunity            ×0.0 Poison damage
Poison Heals               0.3 damage per hit (from Yuri Kozukata)
                           Only affects Stage Poison and Yuri Kozukata AT. Most "damage over time" effects-
                           are not affected (ie Head Flower, PPlant Poison Breath, Joker Eiha/Eigaon, etc.)
Lava-Floor Resist          Following hazard skills are not fully tested in Spirit battles
Lava-Floor Immunity        Both do not work on normal stage hazards
                           ie Norfair, Brinstar Depths, Mario Maker, Stage Builder
Ice-Floor Immunity         Doesn't work with Lucas PK Freeze, Ice Climbers Blizzard, Freezie
Zap-Floor Immunity         Doesn't affect stuns
Slumber Immunity           Immune to Puff Sing, Paisy FS, Bellossom
Sticky-Floor Immunity      Doesn't work with Inkling Roller ink
Strong-Wind Resist         ×0.4, 0.1, 0.0 Works on stage hazards, but not fighter windboxes
Strong-Wind Immunity       ×0.0  Dream Land, Green Greens, Paper Mario, Stage Builder
Fog Immunity               Doesn't work with Pokeballs or ATs that cover the screen
Screen-Flip Immunity       Works with Skull Kid AT and Palkia AT
Irreversible Controls      Nullifies Ramblin' Evil Mushroom
                           Mario Cape, Ashley AT are not affected
Gravity-Change Immunity    Doesn't affect Palkia on Spear Pillar
Poison Power Up            ×1.6
                           ×1.5
                           ×1.5
                           Also provides Poison Immunity. Effects last for as long as if you were taking damage from poison.
Rich (BB code):
Falling Immunity                   Nullifies Banana Peel, Kirby DTilt, etc. Still take damage
Bury Immunity                      Nullifies Pitfall, KRool DTilt & DThrow, Wii Fit Jab 3, etc. Still take damage
Swimmer                            You cannot drown. Simple
Improved Escape                    ×0.6, 0.4, 0.2 duration. Affects a lot
                                   Grab release, shield break recovery, sleep-
                                   Mewtwo Disable, Ryu/Ken Focus Attack fall animation-
                                   Ridley Skewer fall animation, maybe more
Transformation Duration ↑          ×1.5, 1.8, 2.0 duration
                                   Super & Poison Mushroom, Bunny Hood, Super Star, Curry, etc.
                                   Works with Made of Metal, Giant, and Mouthful of Curry
Critical-Health Attack ↑           ×1.1, 1.18, 1.23
                                   20 seconds at 80% damage. Once per stock
Critical-Health Defense ↑          ×1.3, 1.38, 1.46
                                   20 seconds at 80% damage. Once per stock
Critical-Health Stats ↑            ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26
                                   ×1.3, 1.38, 1.46
                                   ×1.3, 1.6, 1.9
                                   20 seconds at 80% damage. Once per stock
Critical-Health Stats ↑↑           ×1.18
                                   ×1.38
                                   ×1.4
                                   20 seconds at 80% damage. Once per stock
Critical Immunity                  7 seconds at 100% damage. Once per stock
Trade-Off Attacks ↑                ×1.23, 1.32, 1.355
                                   +30, 60, 90% damage
Trade-Off Defense ↑                ×1.4, 1.7, 2.0
                                   +30, 60, 90% damage
Trade-Off Speed ↑                  ×1.4, 1.8, 2.2
                                   +30, 60, 90% damage
Trade-Off Ability ↑                ×1.18, 1.29, 1.33
                                   ×1.2, 1.4, 1.6
                                   ×1.2, 1.4, 1.6
                                   +30, 60, 90% damage
Undamaged Attack ↑                 ×1.1, 1.18, 1.29
Undamaged Speed ↑                  ×1.5. 2.0, 2.5
Undamaged Attack & Speed ↑         ×1.1, 1.18, 1.26
                                   ×1.3, 1.6, 1.9
Running Start                      ×1.1, 1.18
                                   ×1.3, 1.38
                                   ×1.3, 1.4
First-Strike Advantage             5, 7 seconds of invincibility
Fast Final Smash Meter             ×1.3, 1.35 FS Meter charge rate
Chance of Double Final Smash       50%, 60% chance. Copies the type used
Double Final Smash                 Copies the type used (if FS Meter used, copies FS Meter)
Jam FS Charge                      ×0.6, 0.4 FS Meter charge rate
                                   Affected by every player with it equipped
                                   Max with 7 opponents with 2 levels is ×0.0016384
Weapon Attack & Move Speed ↑       ×1.1, 1.18
                                   ×1.1, 1.2
Energy Shot Attack/Resistance ↑    ×1.1, 1.18
                                   ×0.6, 0.55
Armor Knight                       ×1.15, 1.25
                                   ×1.8, 2.6
                                   ×0.7
Stamina ↑                          +25, 50, 75, 100 Stamina
Item Autograb                      Multiple levels do no affect range, speed, lag, etc.
Critical Fast Final Smash Meter ↑↑ Gives 10% FS Meter each second when at 80+%
                                   Lasts 25 seconds. Doesn't stop when FS is used, so multiple charges are possible
                                   Affected by Jam FS Charge
Rich (BB code):
Giant              8, 16 seconds
Critical Hit ↑↑    x1.3
                   12%, 24% Chance
Metal and Giant    8 seconds
Team Power Up      ×1.26 (Does not stack with teammate's Team Power Up)
                   ×1.38
Rich (BB code):
Weight ↑↑  ×1.2
           ×0.6

Styles
There are 14 Styles that can be taught in the Dojos found in World of Light. You can only have one or none learned at a time, and you can forget one using Slowpoke and relearn instantly later.
Rich (BB code):
Demon (Ryoma)
   Increases
   Offense              ×1.2

   Decreases
   Defense              ×0.8

Land (Cap'n Cuttlefish)
   Increases
   Ground Power         ×1.2
   Move Speed           ×1.2

   Decreases
   Air Power            ×0.3
   Jump                 ×0.8
   Air Speed            ×0.85

Air (Peppy Hare)
   Increases
   Air Power            ×1.2
   Jump                 ×1.2
   Air Speed            ×1.3

   Decreases
   Ground Power         ×0.3
   Move Speed           ×0.8

Brick-Wall (Copper & Booker)
   Increases
   Defense              ×1.3

   Decreases
   Attack Power         ×0.5

Boulder (Darunia)
   Increases
   Defense              ×1.3
   Move Speed           ×1.2
   Air Speed            ×1.1

   Decreases
   Offense              ×0.7
   Jump                 ×0.8

Big-Bee (Honey Queen)
   Increases
   Defense              ×1.15
   Jump                 ×1.2
   Weight               ×1.2
   Air Speed            ×1.1

   Decreases
   Offense              ×0.6
   Move Speed           ×0.7

Runner (Dr. Stewart)
   Increases
   Move Speed           ×1.5
   Air Speed            ×1.2

   Decreases
   Jump                 ×0.6

Gravity (Gravity Man)
   Increases
   Jump                 ×1.5

   Decreases
   Move Speed           ×0.5
   Air Speed            ×0.9
   Fall Speed           ×0.8

Tank (Kraid)
   Increases
   Offense              ×1.1
   Defense              ×1.2

   Decreases
   Move Speed           ×0.8
   Air Speed            ×0.9
   Jump                 ×0.8

Lightweight (Wii Balance Board)
   Increases
   Move Speed           ×1.4
   Air Speed            ×1.3
   Jump                 ×1.4

   Decreases
   Offense              ×0.6
   Defense              ×0.85
   Weight               ×0.8

Strategist (Riki)
   Increases
   Special-Move Power   ×1.2

   Decreases
   Attack Power         ×0.7
   Throw Power          ×0.7
   Item Attack          ×0.7

Equipment (Dyntos)
   Increases
   Item Attack          ×1.2
   Healing Amount       ×1.2

   Decreases
   Attack Power         ×0.6
   Special-Move Power   ×0.6
   Throw Power          ×0.6

Overthrow (Zangief)
   Increases
   Throw Power          ×1.5
   Grab Range           ×1.25
   Grab Power           ×1.5

   Decreases
   Attack Power         ×0.6
   Special-Move Power   ×0.6
   Item Attack          ×0.6

Ninja (Kat & Ana)
   Increases
   Throw Power          ×1.3
   Grab Power           ×1.6
   Item Attack          ×1.2
   Move Speed           ×1.6
   Fall Speed           ×1.3

   Decreases
   Attack Power         ×0.5
   Special-Move Power   ×0.5
   Defense              ×0.8
   Weight               ×0.65
Here's an explanation for each type of multiplier, since some aren't as obvious as others:
  • Offense: Affects all attacks
  • Ground Power: Affects all attacks used on the ground
  • Air Power: Affects all attacks not used on the ground
  • Attack Power: Affects all A-Button attacks (tilts, jabs, aerials, etc.)
  • Special-Move Power: Affects all B-Button attacks (specials)
  • Throw Power: Affects throw damage
  • Grab Range: Affects grab-bubble size
  • Grab Power: Affects pummel damage
  • Item Attack: Affects item's damage
  • Healing Amount: Affects how much healing items heal you for
  • Defense: Affects your damage resistance
  • Move Speed: Affects movement speed on the ground
  • Air Speed: Affects movement speed in the air (not shown in the dojo)
  • Jump: Jump height and jump speed
  • Weight: Weight...
  • Fall Speed: Fall speed...

Hidden Mechanics
[Attack_Mult] (after SB) shortens the charge time for smash attacks, following
Code:
Charge_Time = 60f / [Attack_Mult]
Ken/Ryu with Akuma gives the highest [Attack_Mult] of all Spirits (4.49404), letting them get a fully charged smash attack in 13 frames. Next highest is <LoZ character> with Fierce Diety Link (4.19088) with 14f of charge.

[Defense_Mult] (after SB) increases shield health and shortens the recovery time if the shield is broken, though takes a bit more work
Code:
Shield_Health = 50 × (1 + (([Defense_Mult] - 1) / 6))
Recovery_Time = 400f  - (200f × (([Defense_Mult] - 1) / 6))
Absolutely Safe Capsule has the highest [Defense_Mult] (7), which gives 100 shield health (×2) and 200f for recovery (×0.5) -- if Def wasn't capped at 10,000 after SB, it would be 105 shield health and 180f for recovery. Next highest is Ryu/Ken with Guile (5.92624) for 91.052 shield health and 236f recovery.

Some Silly Builds
Abilities
-Weight ↓ 1.4 (Primary, Eirika)
-Lightweight 1.3
-Trade-Off Speed 1.4
-Trade-Off Ability/Move Speed ↑ 1.2
Style
-Ninja 1.6
Total: ×4.89216
Side Effects: Weight×0.468, Jump×1.4, Attack×0.59-1.534, Defense×0.96, Fall Speed×1.3, Damage +60
Abilities
-Jump ↑<2> 1.8 (Enhanced, Tsubasa Oribe (Carnage Form), 3 slot)
-Lightweight<2> 1.8
(optional, replace any ability with Additional Jump)
Style
-Gravity 1.5
Total: ×4.86
Side Effects: Speed×0.8, Weight×0.8, Fall Speed×0.8
Abilities
-Armor Knight 0.7 speed (Enhanced, Black Knight, 2 slot)
-Slow Super Armor 0.3 speed, 0.5 jump
Style
-Tank 0.8 speed, 0.8 jump
Total: ×0.168 speed, ×0.4 jump
Side Effects: Attack×1.265, Defense×2.16, Super Armor

If you have any suggestions or see a mistake, let me now.
Any feedback is appreciated

(2019/06/07): Made clarifications to how multiplier stacking works
(2019/06/16): Added multipliers for Traits and Skills
(2019/06/19): Added multipliers for Styles. Expanded damage formula. Hid edits
(2019/06/27): Changed spreadsheet link to one with fewer hidden pages that were mostly for personal/incomplete work. Hopefully should be faster to load and use less data
(2019/07/03): Added extra data for "transformation" related items Skills
(2019/07/30): Added data for Dragon Quest Spirits
(2019/08/08): Added clarification for stat cap
(2019/08/25): Added 'Air Speed' data for Styles
(2019/09/05): Added data for Banjo-Kazooie Spirits. Changed some formatting
(2019/09/27): Added data for DAEMON X MACHINA Spirits. Renamed 'Defense' Spirits to 'Shield' to be more accurate
(2019/10/16): Added information regarding multiplier scaling
(2019/11/06): Added data for FATAL FURY Spirits
(2019/11/22): Added data for Galar Region Pokemon Spirits
(2019/11/29): Added data for Resident Evil Spirits. Added another column for event and DLC spirits. Added better info for Impact Run and Assist Killer
(2020/01/17): Added data for ASTRAL CHAIN Spirits
 
Last edited:

JiggyNinja

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
275
Trait's and Skill's multipliers do not increase stacks.
I have found this to be completely untrue. This is most noticeable with the X Killer abilities because of how extreme their effect and dropoff is. A single level of Giant/Metal/Assist Killer boosts your damage against that target by 40%, while two levels boosts by 45%. Soma Cruz (Giant Killer Primary) with a Giant Killer secondary will boost damage by 45%, the same as two levels of Giant Killer and not two independent applications of Giant Killer (which would be a 96% increase).

I have also confirmed this for one of the smaller effects. Ganondorf and Mewtwo's purple "aura" (for lack of a better word) is actually classified as a Fire/Explosion attack. Testing with Warlock Punch and Dark Daroach (a Fire/Explosion Attack Up Primary), with a Fist Attack Up secondary it boosts by 1.21 (1.1 x 1.1), but it does slightly less damage with a Fire/Explosion Attack Up secondary. I didn't bother to calculate the exact difference, but it seemed pretty obvious to me that Dark Daroach's primary effect absolutely was counted together with the secondary effect.

And one thing that might need some clarification
  • Air Power: Affects all attacks not used on the ground
I haven't tested the Dojo Air Power effect, but I have found that the Air Attack Up effect increases the power of an attack that was started in the air, even if it finishes on the ground. I tested it with Lucina's Shield Breaker. If you start charging in the air, the damage is boosted even if you're completely grounded when the attack actually fires off. Air Power is probably similar.
Atk and Def are multiplied by 1.1 if the Primary Spirit is from the same series as the fighter (Series Bonus; SB)
Also clarify that the series bonus actually shows the increased numbers on screen, so if you're checking your build in the game you don't need to manually add the series bonus to the stats, it's already been applied for you. For example, Dark Emperor has about 6,400 ATK normally, but when it's equipped to one of the Mii Fighters the screen shows its ATK as about 7,000. That's the franchise bonus.
 

CanvasK

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I have found this to be completely untrue. This is most noticeable with the X Killer abilities because of how extreme their effect and dropoff is. A single level of Giant/Metal/Assist Killer boosts your damage against that target by 40%, while two levels boosts by 45%.
I may have worded that line poorly. I meant "traits do not increase stacks of skills". That is, Fist Attack skill and a Fist Attack trait does not equal equal 2 Fist Attack traits.
For Air Power, honestly I did less testing for Styles than I did for Abilities. I will check that out later.
And your last point, that is never something I noticed. I did most if my testing in Training Mode, so I couldn't see any updated stats. Does it show in the Collection builder or only in WoL?
Thanks for the feedback! I'll make sure to make edits where needed when I get home. Been meaning to expand on some things as well.
 
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JiggyNinja

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I may have worded that line poorly. I meant "traits do not increase stacks of skills". That is, Fist Attack skill and a Fist Attack trait does not equal equal 2 Fist Attack traits.
And I'm saying that it does, at least for the couple effects I tested. Let me be more explicit about what I mean.

Ganondorf's Warlock Punch (Neutral Special) counts as both a Fist Attack and a Fire/Explosion attack. With just a Fist Attack Up or Fire/Explosion Attack Up effect, its is boosted by 10%. With 1 copy of both equipped, it is boosted by 21%. (Primary spirit in this test was effectless).

Enter Dark Daroach, a primary spirit with a Fire/Explosion Attack Up effect. With Ganondorf equipped with Dark Daroach, I tested the damage of Warlock Punch with a Fist Attack Up secondary, and with a Fire/Explosion Attack Up secondary. If the primary and secondary boosts are truly independent of each other, then both of those builds should give the same result, a 10% boost over a Dark Daroach with no secondaries (just like the test in the previous paragraph). That is not what happens. Dark Daroach + Fire/Explosion secondary does slightly less damage than Dark Daroach + Fist Attack secondary. I didn't explicitly calculate the percentages, but that's telling me that Dark Daroach's effect is combined with the secondary's effect to the total is counted as 2 levels of Fire/Explosion Attack Up, instead of two independent 1.1 multipliers (which is what happens with Dark Daroach + Fist Attack Up).

For the minor boosts, it's only a small difference. It's most noticeable with the X Killer effects, since they are so massively powerful. For example, Soma Cruz is a Primary with the Giant Killer effect. One level of that gives you +40% to Giant enemies (same multiplier for Metal Killer, and I also think it's the same for Assist Killer). A second level of Giant Killer only gives you an extremely small boost, from +40% to +45% I think was posted somewhere else here.

If Soma Cruz's primary effect what applied independently of the secondaries, then that would be a massive net multiplier of +96%, almost double the base damage. But if you equip him with a Giant Killer secondary, you get a pathetically small increase in damage instead of the 40% you would expect from the first level of Giant Killer. Soma Cruz with a Giant Killer secondary counts as two levels of Giant Killer, not one level of Giant Killer applied twice.

My conclusion from both of these tests is that the effects of Primary Spirits are not independent of the secondary effects. They are counted together, and if the primary effect is the same as one of the secondary effects it counts as an extra level of it and applies the scaling.

I have the numbers for these written down if you don't believe me, but it'll have to wait until I get home today. If you have numbers that refute my statement, I'd like to see them.

And your last point, that is never something I noticed. I did most if my testing in Training Mode, so I couldn't see any updated stats. Does it show in the Collection builder or only in WoL?
I've been doing a lot more Spirit Board than World of Light, but I'm pretty sure it's the same for both. If you're going into a Spirit Battle and you're picking a fighter and primary spirit from the same franchise, the stats it shows on the screen will have he franchise boost applied to them. I can post screenshots later.
 
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CanvasK

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And I'm saying that it does, at least for the couple effects I tested. Let me be more explicit about what I mean.

Ganondorf's Warlock Punch (Neutral Special) counts as both a Fist Attack and a Fire/Explosion attack. With just a Fist Attack Up or Fire/Explosion Attack Up effect, its is boosted by 10%. With 1 copy of both equipped, it is boosted by 21%. (Primary spirit in this test was effectless).

Enter Dark Daroach, a primary spirit with a Fire/Explosion Attack Up effect. With Ganondorf equipped with Dark Daroach, I tested the damage of Warlock Punch with a Fist Attack Up secondary, and with a Fire/Explosion Attack Up secondary. If the primary and secondary boosts are truly independent of each other, then both of those builds should give the same result, a 10% boost over a Dark Daroach with no secondaries (just like the test in the previous paragraph). That is not what happens. Dark Daroach + Fire/Explosion secondary does slightly less damage than Dark Daroach + Fist Attack secondary. I didn't explicitly calculate the percentages, but that's telling me that Dark Daroach's effect is combined with the secondary's effect to the total is counted as 2 levels of Fire/Explosion Attack Up, instead of two independent 1.1 multipliers (which is what happens with Dark Daroach + Fist Attack Up).
Correct. When combining both Fist Attack up and Fire Attack up, you get 1.21 (1.1*1.1). The same thing happens with Fist Attack up (Primary) and Fist Attack up (Support), you get 1.21. However, when you have 2 Fist Attack up (Supports) you get 1.18. This is what I meant and why I should have worded it differently.
Traits do stack with Skills, however Traits do not count as another copy of a Skill. Here is a quick test I did with only Fist Attack (<x> indicates number of copies)
Giga Mac, 5806 atk (3.3224)
Fist Attack up<1> *1.1 (Primary)
Fist Attack up<1> *1.1 (Secondary)

Warlock Punch Base = 30
Only Spirit Mult = 30*3.3224 = 99.672
Tested with Abilities = 120.6
120.6/99.672 = 1.2099.... ~= 1.21 = 1.1*1.1

Dark Emperor, 6406 (3.5624)
None (Primary)
Fist Attack up<2> *? (Secondary)

Warlock Punch Base = 30
Only Spirit Mult = 30*3.3224 = 106.872
Tested with Abilities = 126.1
126.1/106.872 = 1.17991... ~= 1.18 =/= 1.2
Also, I apologize if I may come off as irritated. I'm not great with words and tend towards being blunt. But I do appreciate you catching my mistakes. I'm going to work on a revision here soon.

EDIT: Wanted to add that Dark Daroach is an enhanced Spirit, this means he doesn't use the same Fire Attack up the other Primaries do, he uses a copy of the Support version. So you are correct there as well. Dark Daroach + another Fire Attack up yields 1.18 because that is 2 copies of Fire Attack up (Support), Solgaleo uses Fire Attack up (Primary), so him + Fire Attack up (Support) would give 1.21, and Dark Daroach + Fist Attack up is 1.21.

EDIT 2: Just tested the Air Attack skill again. I used Jigglypuff forward special and neutral special on the ground, in the air, and ground after charging n-special in the air. Got the same damage for each. I also tested Lucina's Shield Breaker and did get vastly different numbers, but that happened without the skill. According to the wiki, Shield Breaker does 1.15 times more damage when hitting the head of the enemy, maybe that is the cause of confusion? I will test Air Power in a bit

EDIT 3: Did a quick test with the Air Power Style. F-Special in the air then ground, N-Special was in the air and then charged in the air, released on the ground. This matches my previous tests which was just aerials for air and smashes on the ground. This leads me to believe that the damage increase we both saw with Lucina is due to the headshot.
 
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JiggyNinja

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I did not know that Enhanced spirits played by different rules. A great discovery! Looking back on it, all the ones I tested (Soma, Dark Daroach, and Hades) are enhanced spirits.

Testing on the Sandbag in Team Setup Test mode.

Ness Fully Charged PSI Magnet
M. Bison = 91.3%
M. Bison + PSI Up = 100.4% (+10%)
M. Bison + Neut. Spec. Up = 100.4% (10%)

Ganondorf Warlock Punch
Dark Daroach = 109.0%
Dark Daroach + Fist = 119.9% (+10%)
Dark Daroach + Fire/Explosion = 117.0 (+7.3%)

Ganondorf Warlock Punch
Nothing = 30.0%
Dry Bowser (2410 ATK) = 68.0%
Dry Bowser + Fist = 74.8% (+10%)
Dry Bowser + Fire/Explosion = 74.8% (+10%)
Calculating based on the stats, Dry Bowser's Fire Up effect is a 15% boost, better than the Fire/Explosion secondaries.

I must have gotten mixed up with what I tested before with Air attacks. The Air Attack Up effects (like Gyarados spirit) do not boost the power of Special attacks, only normals (A button attacks) and items. A Bob-omb thrown on the ground does less damage to the Sandbag than one thrown while airborn.

I might have run into a subtlety with my Air Power test (specifically Air Style dojo) too. I think I was actually testing with Warlock Punch before and not Shield Breaker. If I initiate Shield Breaker in the air but it hits when I'm grounded, I always get the weak grounded hit. It's a bit easer to test with Ike since his Neutral B is slower. If I'm grounded on hit, I get the weak grounded damage. If I'm airborne when the move hits, I do the strong air damage. This happens even without charging the Neutral B.

However, that's not the way Warlock Punch works. If I short hop to initiate it in the air, I get the strong air damage even though me feet are firmly planted on the ground when the attack actually hits.

My theory is that the game handles charging moves different than normal moves. Lucina and Ike have a chargeable neutral B. Where you are at the moment of attack is what determines if it's an aerial or grounded attack. While Warlock Punch takes a long time, it's not a chargeable attack so where you are when you initiate the attack is what matters.

This leads to an interesting property with one very special attack: K. Rool's Blunderbuss. The Blunderbuss's attack has two parts: The Cannonball and the Vacuum throw. The Canonball is not chargeable, but the Vacuum throw is. The Vacuum doesn't increase in power, but holding the B button does control how long it stays active, so from that perspective it has a similar property as the more obviously chargeable attacks like Shield Breaker.

My experiments with K. Rool validate my results. If I initiate the Blunderbuss just a couple frames before hitting the ground, K. Rool's feet are on the ground when the cannonball is shot but it still counts for the power aerial damage. However, if I try to do the same thing with the Vacuum suck (after shooting the cannonball away to miss the enemy), I always get the weak grounded damage. In order for the Vacuum throw to get the aerial damage, I need to be airborne when they're shot out, such as by grabbing them while falling off the side of the stage.

The opposite is also true for the Land style. If I start shooting the blunderbuss a couple frames before touching the ground, I get the weak air damage. If I initiate the Vacuum grab before touching the ground, but I'm grounded when I shoot, I get the ground damage. Also, dropping through the platform after initiating the blunderbuss gives the ground damage, even though I'm airborn when the cannonball actually fires. For the Vacuum it still depends on whether you're airboarn or grounded when the shot actually happens. I tested on Kalos Pokemon League since it has droppable platforms overhanging the edge of the stage.

So the rule is:

For chargeable attacks (ones where you control the duration by holding the button down): Air/Ground is determined when the attack lands.

For the other, fixed duration attack, Air/Ground is determined when the attack is initiated.
 

CanvasK

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I must have gotten mixed up with what I tested before with Air attacks. The Air Attack Up effects (like Gyarados spirit) do not boost the power of Special attacks, only normals (A button attacks) and items. A Bob-omb thrown on the ground does less damage to the Sandbag than one thrown while airborn.

However, that's not the way Warlock Punch works. If I short hop to initiate it in the air, I get the strong air damage even though me feet are firmly planted on the ground when the attack actually hits.

So the rule is:

For chargeable attacks (ones where you control the duration by holding the button down): Air/Ground is determined when the attack lands.

For the other, fixed duration attack, Air/Ground is determined when the attack is initiated.
Fascinating. Did some testing and came to the same conclusion
I think that rule is a great way to think about it. I tried to write a generalized wording, but it was a little wordy.

The 'Enhanced spirits [play] by different rules' thing stumped me very early in my testing because Fist Attack was first on the list. I initially thought Traits and Skills were the same and thought I could increase levels that way, so I would test Akira + Fist Attack and get 1.21 despite other threads saying Fist Attack<2> is 1.18. That lead to me testing them separately, but I'm not sure when I determined that Enhanced Spirits use Skills. Though, if you look at the Ability display ( thing under the stats) you can see that attack-based Traits have a sword with two arrows, and Skills and Enhanced only have the sword.
 

JiggyNinja

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More subtlety with the Air/Ground Power Dojo abilities. I recently got a set of fully-leveled Akuma spirits with the full suite of Dojo abilities so I'm starting some comprehensive testing, and I found something weird with the Flame Choke. Even when I used it in the air, I found that it was boosted by the Land Style, which didn't make much sense. Furthermore, Dark Dive was weakened even when it was initiated on the ground. Neither of these are charging attacks like the previous ones tested.

So rather than charging being the differentiator, I think the true determination is whether a hitbox is conditional on events. I'm not sure if that's the best way to explain it, but it makes some sense to me. When you land a Flame Choke in the air, the hitbox isn't triggered until you hit the ground. For Dark Dive, the command grab part of it isn't triggered unless the opponent is in range. K. Rool's Blunderbuss Vacuum is triggered by the opponent getting sucked in, and the previous charging attacks (Lucina Shield Breaker and Ike Flame Sword) are triggered by either the button being released or charging being completed. In comparison, Warlock Punch and the Blunderbuss Cannonball is a fixed animation. It's going to come out, and there are no conditions that will make it happen sooner or later.

To flesh this out more, I looked at two other moves. The first is Mii Brawler's Suplex. Suplex actually damages twice; the first time when you grab them, and the second time when you actually hit the ground. When you initiate the move in the air, the first part is considered an aerial attack, but the secon done is a grounded attack. When you initiate it on the ground, both are considered ground attacks.

The second attack I looked at is Wolf's Side B. Because it travels upward, Wolf will always be airborne when it hits. However, similar to the Warlock Punch and the Cannonball, it is a fixed animation and the hitbox does not depend on any triggers. That leads to the prediction that it is considered a ground attack when initiated on the ground. And that's exactly what happens. When used on the ground (to hit an opponent on a higher platform), Land style does 20% and Air style does 5. When initiated in the air (like when recovering off stage), Air does 20 and Land does 5.

So, for conditional portions of an attack (I don't know a better way to describe this), grounded/airborne is determined when that portion of the attack happens. For fixed parts of the attack, it is determined at initiation.
 

CanvasK

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I think I may have found a generalized rule for grounded/airborne:
Grounded/Airborne is determined when the hitbox of the move is initiated.

'Example 1, Ganondorf's up special (Dark Dive) performs a command grab when it connects and an uppercut if it doesn't. The command grab only connects and deals damage once Ganondorf is in the air and has a target, so it is always 'Airborne'. The uppercut comes out at a fixed time after Dark Dive is started. If Dark Dive is initiated on the ground, then the uppercut will be 'Grounded'; initiated in the air, 'Airborne'. Example 2, Ganondorf's side special (Flame Choke), when used in the air, will bring the target down to the ground and then explode. This will be 'Grounded' because, despite starting in the air, the hitbox for the explosion will not be initiated until you are on the ground. Example 3, Capt. Falcon's neutral special (Falcon Punch) takes a long time to hit and can be started in the air and released on the ground. If you start the Falcon Punch in the air, it is 'Airborne' even if it is released after landing because the hitbox was initiated in the air.'
Wording may need work. Thanks for testing that! I wouldn't have thought to check the outliers.

As a small update, I have updated the spreadsheet to include the recent Peachette, Link (Link's Awakening), and Owl spirits.
 

CyberMario

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Some Silly Builds
Abilities
-Weight ↓ 1.4 (Primary, Eirika)
-Lightweight 1.3
-Trade-Off Speed 1.4
-Trade-Off Ability/Move Speed ↑ 1.2
Style
-Ninja 1.6
Total: ×4.89216
Side Effects: Weight×0.468, Jump×1.4, Attack×0.59-1.534, Defense×0.96, Fall Speed×1.3, Damage +60
It's max speed with Weight ↓? Why not Lightweight or Speed ↑ as the primary trait?


Edit: Oh. I missed a small line of text explaining that weight ↓ increases speed. What a nice catch!
 
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CanvasK

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It's max speed with Weight ↓? Why not Lightweight or Speed ↑ as the primary trait?

Edit: Oh. I missed a small line of text explaining that weight ↓ increases speed. What a nice catch!
Thanks! I'm not sure why the regular Speed ↑ gives only a ×1.1 speed increase while Weight ↓ is ×1.4.
I'd love to get some other teams that push the limits. Maybe a max/min weight build? Or maybe character specific ones like max damage Puff Rest.
 

JiggyNinja

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Or maybe character specific ones like max damage Puff Rest.
Wouldn't Demon Medusa (Giant) + Trade-Off Attacks + Trade-Off Abilities maximize damage for everything? Outside the ___ Killer effects, those are the abilities that give the most damage/slot of any effect. In fact, there are only 3 effects that give more than 10% boost, and Armor Knight is not only weaker than these two but it takes up two slots.
 

CanvasK

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Wouldn't Demon Medusa (Giant) + Trade-Off Attacks + Trade-Off Abilities maximize damage for everything? Outside the ___ Killer effects, those are the abilities that give the most damage/slot of any effect. In fact, there are only 3 effects that give more than 10% boost, and Armor Knight is not only weaker than these two but it takes up two slots.
The two Trade-Offs would be best. I'll vote 'no' on Giant since I was thinking of builds that can be used in multiplayer. It would be good for Spirit battles, but not much else. Armor Knight would be good to add in some survivability given the 2 Trade-Offs.
I think to maximize Puff Rest without letting it get killed by Ganondorf Jab would be Giratina (Origin Forme)(Shield Damage) with Physical up, Down-Special up, and Trade-Off ability. EDIT: A general build would replace Down-Special with Foot since that is what Puff uses the most iirc.
 
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JiggyNinja

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You said "max damage" not "good general Puff build".

And honestly, if it was kitting out Jigglypuff for multiplayer I wouldn't be buffing her damage. I'd lean hard into her rage-inducing campiness with either Jump+ or Floaty Jumps + Instadrop. Can you just imagine how annoying that would be? Go fight that stupid little from one that's an Instadrop Greninja if you forgot. It's infuriating when every juggle attempt if snuffed out by the stupid drop. The sound effect makes it even worse, just the tiny little poof poof poof poof POOF POOF POOF POOF!!!!!!!

Back to your spreadsheet, you have Special Move Power wrong in the Abilities table. You have it marked giving a 10% buff, but the numbers in your test table show it only being a 5% buff.
 

CanvasK

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You got me there. I really need to work on my wording. I guess for true max damage it would be Demon Medusa (Giant) + Giant Killer + Metal Killer. With how rare that would come up, Demon Medusa + TO-Attack + TO-Ability would probably be the next best.

That would definitely be an annoying build. I'll have to test if Instadrop is affected by stats. Depending on the results it would either be terrible in a good way or terrible in a bad way.

And thanks for finding that! I've updated it and made sure to check my post in case I missed it there. Gonna go back and double-check everything later because I've been seeing quite a few errors myself.
 

CyberMario

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Thanks! I'm not sure why the regular Speed ↑ gives only a ×1.1 speed increase while Weight ↓ is ×1.4.
I'd love to get some other teams that push the limits. Maybe a max/min weight build? Or maybe character specific ones like max damage Puff Rest.
Alright, big 5000 IQ moment I came up with last night. You ready for this? Alright, listen.
2 Builds. Call one build Wombo, call the other build Combo.

1st Build (Wombo)
Default Hades (Final Form)
Trade-Off Ability
Trade-Off Ability

2nd Build (Combo)
Default Dixie Kong & Kiddy Kong
Fairy Bottle Equipped
Fairy Bottle Equipped
Fairy Bottle Equipped

What do these two builds have to do with anything? Individually, they are nothing. But together, they make for a deadly team. Wombo is near 100% damage at the start of the match, at any point, Combo has to trade-off the Fairy bottle with Wombo. In doing so, Wombo heals all of his health making them the deadliest force in the match.

Feel like the combo is too risky? Have Combo be Villager or Isabelle to permanently hold onto the item until the time is right. If it weren't for the recent "Team Power Up" support spirit, I would have loved to have this as the default team to destroy people within arenas.
 
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CanvasK

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Alright, big 5000 IQ moment I came up with last night. You ready for this? Alright, listen.
2 Builds. Call one build Wombo, call the other build Combo.

1st Build (Wombo)
Default Hades (Final Form)
Trade-Off Ability
Trade-Off Ability

2nd Build (Combo)
Default Dixie Kong & Kiddy Kong
Fairy Bottle Equipped
Fairy Bottle Equipped
Fairy Bottle Equipped

What do these two builds have to do with anything? Individually, they are nothing. But together, they make for a deadly team. Wombo is near 100% damage at the start of the match, at any point, Combo has to trade-off the Fairy bottle with Wombo. In doing so, Wombo heals all of his health making them the deadliest force in the match.

Feel like the combo is too risky? Have Combo be Villager or Isabelle to permanently hold onto the item until the time is right. If it weren't for the recent "Team Power Up" support spirit, I would have loved to have this as the default team to destroy people within arenas.
Ooooh, I like that. I can't find any real flaws with it other than the risk of not being able to hand off the fairy bottle and your teammate being less powerful. You have a massive 6.033 atk multiplier, toss in a 5.24 def mult and a 1.4 speed mult, and you have a Defense and a Grab for variety.

If Villager/Isabelle's pocket counted pocketed things as 'thrown' then you could have something a little scary against anyone with a charge attack. Sadly I don't think it does, but you can still mess with Link, Krool, etc.
Team Power Up would be ridiculous, but I don't think it is worth 2 stocks at 90%. If there were a Primary with Fairy Bottle or TPU, then maybe.
 

CyberMario

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I'd love to get some other teams that push the limits. Maybe a max/min weight build? Or maybe character-specific ones like max damage Puff Rest.
Here is another one that I've seen used on me. But I believe using your calculations, I've refined the combo to be even better.

Call the combos "Body Snatcher"
Body Snatcher DK:
Overthrow Style Starfy
Lightweight
Lightweight
Trade-Off Ability ↑

Body Snatcher Kirby:
Ninja Style Starfy
Lightweight​
Lightweight​
Trade-Off Ability ↑
What's great about online arenas are that you'll be facing skill levels of all types. Most of them don't know how to wiggle out of a grab. The combo is easy, grab (or suck) your opponent, run off the stage. By the time they realize what is happening, it is already too late. As DK, down throw to maximize your distance. As Kirby, re-suck them up again if they try to return to the ledge. No matter what the situation, you'll 9/10 be able to make it back to the stage. Your opponent, may not. It doesn't sound broken until you actually try it. It's one of those "Sounds trivial on paper" but "oh god why does this work so well enough to the point I feel guilty."

The natural counter to the Armor Knight or Super Slow Armor spirit combos.
 

CanvasK

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Here is another one that I've seen used on me. But I believe using your calculations, I've refined the combo to be even better.

Call the combos "Body Snatcher"
Body Snatcher DK:
Overthrow Style Starfy
Lightweight
Lightweight
Trade-Off Ability ↑

Body Snatcher Kirby:
Ninja Style Starfy
Lightweight​
Lightweight​
Trade-Off Ability ↑
What's great about online arenas are that you'll be facing skill levels of all types. Most of them don't know how to wiggle out of a grab. The combo is easy, grab (or suck) your opponent, run off the stage. By the time they realize what is happening, it is already too late. As DK, down throw to maximize your distance. As Kirby, re-suck them up again if they try to return to the ledge. No matter what the situation, you'll 9/10 be able to make it back to the stage. Your opponent, may not. It doesn't sound broken until you actually try it. It's one of those "Sounds trivial on paper" but "oh god why does this work so well enough to the point I feel guilty."

The natural counter to the Armor Knight or Super Slow Armor spirit combos.
The only thing that I think could counter that would be Improved Escape, but how likely is someone going to run that? A quick test with Kirby shows that you can spit the opponent into the blast zone (at least on FD), but it puts you uncomfortably close to the bottom blast zone. If the opponent is at a higher percent, you can spit sooner. Also, forward throw to inhale works at 0, assuming they don't attack because they are invulnerable to inhale after; higher percents make them lay on the ground, making it impossible to inhale.

I just found out that Joker can start with Arsene if you have 3 Trade-Off x, but this only works on the first stock and other stocks you spawn without Arsene. On a similar topic, I think Joker/Pichu/Lucario with a mix of Critical-Health x, Critical Immunity, and Trade-Off x could be interesting.

I'd love to get into some spirit arenas, would be a refreshing experience from quickplay. Issue is most of my builds are centered around singleplayer and testing things. And I've been trying to work out how stats scale between levels and I have an idea but there are some errors. It's kind of useless as people only need and care about lvl 1 and lvl 99, but I've got everything else so why not. If anyone has any insight (or has datamined it), I'd appreciate it.
 

JiggyNinja

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I just found out that Joker can start with Arsene if you have 3 Trade-Off x, but this only works on the first stock and other stocks you spawn without Arsene. On a similar topic, I think Joker/Pichu/Lucario with a mix of Critical-Health x, Critical Immunity, and Trade-Off x could be interesting.
Pichu doesn't do that much self-damage, so it usually doesn't require special management. Some Auto Healing can help, but you tend to spawn pretty close to death percent anyway.

Also starting off with a super-high-damage Lucario isn't really beneficial either, I tried. You start out easier to kill, but you still have to rack up damage on the opponent to kill them. I'd use one Trade-Off effect at most and let the rest of the damage naturally accumulate.

On the other hand, Joker with Mega Diancie + Celebi is killer for Hard Mode boss fights. Mega Diancie's high defense gives you the best mileage out of Celebi, and the bosses very predictable attack patterns give you an easy time farming meter with Rebel's Guard.

ETA:
Here is another one that I've seen used on me. But I believe using your calculations, I've refined the combo to be even better.

Call the combos "Body Snatcher"
Body Snatcher DK:
Overthrow Style Starfy
Lightweight
Lightweight
Trade-Off Ability ↑

Body Snatcher Kirby:
Ninja Style Starfy
Lightweight​
Lightweight​
Trade-Off Ability ↑
What's great about online arenas are that you'll be facing skill levels of all types. Most of them don't know how to wiggle out of a grab. The combo is easy, grab (or suck) your opponent, run off the stage. By the time they realize what is happening, it is already too late. As DK, down throw to maximize your distance. As Kirby, re-suck them up again if they try to return to the ledge. No matter what the situation, you'll 9/10 be able to make it back to the stage. Your opponent, may not. It doesn't sound broken until you actually try it. It's one of those "Sounds trivial on paper" but "oh god why does this work so well enough to the point I feel guilty."

The natural counter to the Armor Knight or Super Slow Armor spirit combos.
You are evil.
 
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CyberMario

Settle It
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Little Elm, TX
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You are evil.
I live to be kicked from Spirit Battle Arenas. It's so great to see people instantly ban me from their Arena's after countering their system. That's what kinda makes the whole thing so fun. For all the stupid rules they place on their arena, I spend 10 minutes developing the perfect spirit combo to capitalize on their ruleset. And then destroy them on their own terms.

Here's another one for you. Only because it was used on me flawlessly.

Call it the "Screwattack" Spirit combo. Perfect for those who fight using 1 stock or Stamina. I haven't tested it that much. But here it is.

Screwattack Spirit Combo
Medusa - Lightweight style
Screwattack (Sandshrew, Top Man, Bubbles, Helirin)
The set up is simple, choose Samus or Dark Samus, run up to an enemy, jump, jump again before your screwattack runs out, then UpB then your enemy dies off the top of the screen. Another one of those "It can't be THAT simple." Low and behold, it is that easy. End matches in 5 seconds.
 

CanvasK

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 4, 2019
Messages
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Pichu doesn't do that much self-damage, so it usually doesn't require special management. Some Auto Healing can help, but you tend to spawn pretty close to death percent anyway.

Also starting off with a super-high-damage Lucario isn't really beneficial either, I tried. You start out easier to kill, but you still have to rack up damage on the opponent to kill them. I'd use one Trade-Off effect at most and let the rest of the damage naturally accumulate.

ETA:

You are evil.
Yeah, I'm not sure where I was going with that. Pichu with Lifesteal or Autoheal would be better than Trade-Off, let it survive a little longer. I still think Critical-Health abilities would be good for Lucario, aura is good but now you have some extra power Nevermind that. I forgot how weak Critical-Health abilities were, best to just use any other attack booster.

That video is amazing. "You love throwing things don't you, Sukapon? Let's see how you feel!"

I live to be kicked from Spirit Battle Arenas. It's so great to see people instantly ban me from their Arena's after countering their system. That's what kinda makes the whole thing so fun. For all the stupid rules they place on their arena, I spend 10 minutes developing the perfect spirit combo to capitalize on their ruleset. And then destroy them on their own terms.
A bit of theory crafting: Ruleset 300% handicap or Super Sudden Death (don't think you can use spirits in SSD). Obviously you want someone who can shoot for a quick kill, so you use Falco, ROB, Samus, Bayo, etc or you equip a Staff. To counter you use a reflector like Falco/Fox, DDD inhale, Franklin Badge. Person who shoots first dies when using normal reflectors(in most cases at least (also Staff appears to never break the Franklin Badge reflector?)), so no one shoots. Surprise, you have Critical Immunity, so you start out invincible and can shoot to your hearts content. Your reflector may still break first, so chase them.
 

JiggyNinja

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
275
I live to be kicked from Spirit Battle Arenas. It's so great to see people instantly ban me from their Arena's after countering their system. That's what kinda makes the whole thing so fun. For all the stupid rules they place on their arena, I spend 10 minutes developing the perfect spirit combo to capitalize on their ruleset. And then destroy them on their own terms.

Here's another one for you. Only because it was used on me flawlessly.

Call it the "Screwattack" Spirit combo. Perfect for those who fight using 1 stock or Stamina. I haven't tested it that much. But here it is.

Screwattack Spirit Combo


The set up is simple, choose Samus or Dark Samus, run up to an enemy, jump, jump again before your screwattack runs out, then UpB then your enemy dies off the top of the screen. Another one of those "It can't be THAT simple." Low and behold, it is that easy. End matches in 5 seconds.
And I thought my Medusa/Petey Piranha + Black Hole Ganondorf combo was broken.

I mean it totally is broken, just not the only broken thing around. Playing around with Yeet!DK (I'm just going to call it that now) some more on the Spirit Board, and he has an extremely hard time in 1v2 and 1v3 fights. Mythra and Hinawa kicked my ass. Maybe this or Mega Screw Samus would be a good counter to The Boss. Not that I have much trouble with her anymore anyway. Running Style + Poison Heal and then chase her down to land all the Flame Chokes you can.

If I spend anymore time on this topic I'm going to start derailing it into gushing about how great Ganondorf is against like 90% of the Legendary spirits.

EDIT: I have never felt so disgusted in my entire life. I feel dirty.
 
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CyberMario

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Location
Little Elm, TX
3DS FC
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A bit of theory crafting: Ruleset 300% handicap or Super Sudden Death (don't think you can use spirits in SSD). Obviously you want someone who can shoot for a quick kill, so you use Falco, ROB, Samus, Bayo, etc or you equip a Staff. To counter you use a reflector like Falco/Fox, DDD inhale, Franklin Badge. Person who shoots first dies when using normal reflectors(in most cases at least (also Staff appears to never break the Franklin Badge reflector?)), so no one shoots. Surprise, you have Critical Immunity, so you start out invincible and can shoot to your hearts content. Your reflector may still break first, so chase them.
You cannot use Spirits in Super Sudden Death. But when I toying around with the idea...

These three combos work on the idea of healing you the most they can, allowing you to take a few hits before death.
Combo 1 -
Character: Megaman
Proto Man - Brick-Wall Style
Armor Knight
Fairy Bottle

Combo 2 -
Character: Ryu or Ken
Guile - Brick-Wall Style
Fairy Bottle
Staff

Combo 3 -
Character: Pichu
Zygarde (Complete Forme) - Brick-Wall Style
Fairy Bottle
Staff
This combo work off of your idea. Focusing on being small, fast, and impossible to hit while being lethal yourself.:
Character: Pichu
Mega Diancie - Lightweight Style
Critical Health-Immunity
Staff
I have never felt so disgusted in my entire life. I feel dirty.
I cannot take credit for the combo's inception. I can gladly say I perfected it. There are other minor interesting combos I came up with but they aren't as bizarre and broken like the ones I already mentioned. The one I'm testing now is "Lucas Freeze"

Character: Lucas
Primary: Hades (Final Form) - Strategist Style
Support 1: Neutral Special Up
Support 2: Water & Ice Attack Up
Although gimped on one move, I'm pretty sure Lucas's PK Freeze can kill anyone at 50% or above. Though, I'll need some live experiments to test out the theory.
 

CanvasK

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Jun 4, 2019
Messages
27
It turns out that certain Styles have unlisted effects, namely Air Speed. I'm not surprised, but it is annoying when info is not told to the user. I'll be testing each style for Air Speed and other potentially hidden effects (weight, jump, etc). Acceleration and traction/friction may also be hidden, but they are so small (only a handful of frames) that they are almost impossible to test.

I so far have data for Land with ×0.85 air speed and Air with ×1.3 air speed. I'll test the others in the next few days, then test other possibly unlisted effects, and then abilities to be sure.

EDIT:
Here are the Air Speed multipliers for the styles. Demon, Brick-Wall, Strategist, Equipment, Overthrow, and Ninja don't have a multiplier
Land ×0.85
Air ×1.3
Boulder ×1.1
Big-Bee ×1.1
Runner ×1.2
Gravity ×0.9
Tank ×0.9
Lightweight ×1.3

I will update the main post and spreadsheet later, maybe tomorrow night.
 
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JiggyNinja

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Dec 14, 2018
Messages
275
I can understand most of those, since the ones that affect it all have Movement Speed or Jump modifiers and most of the others don't. The only outlier is Ninja style. It seems a little weird that it wouldn't increase your airspeed when it gives you increased movement speed and lighter weight.

How did you test the air speed? I'd like to double-check that one myself later today.
 

CanvasK

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Messages
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I can understand most of those, since the ones that affect it all have Movement Speed or Jump modifiers and most of the others don't. The only outlier is Ninja style. It seems a little weird that it wouldn't increase your airspeed when it gives you increased movement speed and lighter weight.

How did you test the air speed? I'd like to double-check that one myself later today.
I couldn't test it the same way that I tested ground speed, where I zoomed in the camera, let the boosted character run next to a naturally faster character and watch to see if the boosted character got closer or further. There aren't any stages with high enough, lined up platforms to test how I wanted (could use a custom stage but can't use those in training).
The way I tested was I put a boosted character (namely Palutena with 1.0 air speed and Jigglypuff with high air speed) on the far right platforms of Hyrule, got them to teeter on the edge, then run off towards the blast zone. I counted the number of frames and compared that to an unboosted character. I used Hyrule because the bottom blast zone is far away and I could line two characters (a boosted and unboosted) up and run them off at the same time to see if they lined up or strayed away.

Thinking on it, a custom stage with two rows of vertical max speed windboxes and two walls around them could be used to test the same way as I did ground speed. I may do that later to double check.

EDIT: Made a quick stage and tested Luigi with Runner (0.77) against Link (0.924) and they appeared to be at the same speed. So my estimate of 1.2 from frame counting is reflected here (0.77*1.2 = 0.924).
 
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CanvasK

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Jun 4, 2019
Messages
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New Fighter, new Update, new Spirits. Here they are in order of the Spirit List:
Rich (BB code):
Banjo & Kazooie, Fighter
Tooty, Support, Rank 2, 1 Slot, Poison Damage Reduced
Bottles, Primary, Defense, Rank 2, 2 slots, No Ability
    Atk 712 - 2860, Def 1069 - 4290
Mumbo Jumbo, Primary, Grab, Rank 3, 3 Slots, Magic Attack ↑
    Atk 1526 - 4578, Def 1223 - 3671
Jinojos, Primary, Neutral, Rank 2, 2 Slots, <Enhnaces to The Mighty Jinjonator>
    Atk 901 - 3617, Def 799 - 3207
The Mighty Jinjonator, Primary, Neutral, Rank 3, 2 Slots, Giant
    Atk 2227 - 6699, Def 844 - 2541
Jiggy, Support, Rank 1, 1 Slot, Lightweight
Gruntilda, Support, Rank 4, 3 Slots, Poison Power Up
Buzzbomb, Support, Rank 1, 1 Slot, Floaty Jumps
The Mighty Jinjonator has the 4th highest attack stat of all Spirits (×3.6796); impressive for a Neutral. Gruntilda has a new Skill, Poison Power Up, which will increase attack, defense, and speed while poisoned. I haven't tested it yet as the only source of poison is in Spirit battles (PPlant Poison Cloud, Joker Eiha, Olimar White Pikmin, etc. don't use the same poison that abilities check for). It will take a while, especially for speed, to be tested properly but I will do it.
EDIT: typo
EDIT: Poison Power Up gives a massive ×1.6 attack and ×1.5 defense. Speed is inconclusive, but it appears to be about ×1.65
EDIT: Tockles Spirit added to the sheet, rank 3, 2 slots, Fog Immunity. You can get it by having a DQ 11 demo savefile. You may be able to get it after loading into the overworld, but I went to the top of the mountain to be safe.
 
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JiggyNinja

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Dec 14, 2018
Messages
275
So...just now I did some math for how much certain stats will affect your relative damage output. Because ATK multiplies the damage you do and DEF divides the damage you take, the best way to measure this is multiplying the ATK boost and the DEF boost together. This way halving the damage you receive is equivalent to doubling the damage you deal (because you get twice as much time to attack the opponent before you get to kill percent). I considered a hypothetical set of spirits whose stats sum up to 10,000 in varying proportions.

Relative Damage Output = (1 + 4E-4 * A) * (1 + 6E-4 * D)
Relative Damage Output = (1 + 4E-4 * A) * (1 + 6E-4(10,000 - A))
Relative Damage Output = 7 + 22E-4*A - 24E-8*A^2

Solving for the maximum value (viva la calculus!) gives a maximum value where ATK = 4,583 (and DEF is 5,417). That's an ATK/DEF ratio of about 85%. The RDO value there (with no other effects) is about 12, meaning your damage output is 12 times higher than normal, taking into account both your damage boosts and the damage reduction of your opponent.

Normal damage and defense boosting/reducing abilities (Like Fist Attack Up or Aura Resist and the like) are straight multipliers. They will increase or decrease the RDO value, but they won't change the location of the maximum. The Trade-Off abilities will complicate this math slightly, since they provide not just a multiplier be also a constant offset of damage. I'll analyze them next, but I think the value of them will depend a lot on what's considered "kill percent" for a given character. Bowser, for example, will probably get a lot more value from a Trade-Off ability than Pichu.

In the meantime, it looks like if you're training an Amiibo or optimizing a spirit team for damage output, the ideal ATK/DEF ratio is about 85%.
 

CanvasK

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Messages
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So...just now I did some math for how much certain stats will affect your relative damage output. Because ATK multiplies the damage you do and DEF divides the damage you take, the best way to measure this is multiplying the ATK boost and the DEF boost together. This way halving the damage you receive is equivalent to doubling the damage you deal (because you get twice as much time to attack the opponent before you get to kill percent). I considered a hypothetical set of spirits whose stats sum up to 10,000 in varying proportions.

Relative Damage Output = (1 + 4E-4 * A) * (1 + 6E-4 * D)
Relative Damage Output = (1 + 4E-4 * A) * (1 + 6E-4(10,000 - A))
Relative Damage Output = 7 + 22E-4*A - 24E-8*A^2

Solving for the maximum value (viva la calculus!) gives a maximum value where ATK = 4,583 (and DEF is 5,417). That's an ATK/DEF ratio of about 85%. The RDO value there (with no other effects) is about 12, meaning your damage output is 12 times higher than normal, taking into account both your damage boosts and the damage reduction of your opponent.

Normal damage and defense boosting/reducing abilities (Like Fist Attack Up or Aura Resist and the like) are straight multipliers. They will increase or decrease the RDO value, but they won't change the location of the maximum. The Trade-Off abilities will complicate this math slightly, since they provide not just a multiplier be also a constant offset of damage. I'll analyze them next, but I think the value of them will depend a lot on what's considered "kill percent" for a given character. Bowser, for example, will probably get a lot more value from a Trade-Off ability than Pichu.

In the meantime, it looks like if you're training an Amiibo or optimizing a spirit team for damage output, the ideal ATK/DEF ratio is about 85%.
If I'm understanding this correctly, you are calculating the stats that would maximize damage output while minimizing damage input? Going by the 85% RDO there are 5 spirits that are close to that: James McCloud, Pit (Original), Octopus, Tsubasa Oribe (Carnage Form), and Mecha-Fiora.

As for Amiibo I've been doing some testing with them on the side. Sadly I don't think a RDO of 85% works for them because their stat formula uses a different coefficient than 0.4 or 0.6; there is very little information online about them so I understand why it would be assumed that they are the same. They actually use 1/3.25 (or 4/13, which gives 0.3076923...) for both ATK and DEF. At lvl 50 they have a base multiplier of 1.3 on ATK and DEF and then apply their stats, which maxes out at 5000 between the two (so it is not possible to have 5000/5000, 2500/2800, or anything where A+D>5000). I think a 2500/2500 is the best considering the identical coefficients.

(I'm substituting 3.25 for 'c' to simplify the math)
RDO = (1 + 1/c * A) * (1 + 1/c * (5000 - A))
RDO = (1+ A/c) * (1 + 5000/c - A/c)
RDO = 1 + 5000/c - A/c +A/c + (5000 * A)/c^2 - A^2/c^2
The following I'm not 100% confident in since I've not touched calculus in a while
(5000 * A)/c^2 -> 5000/c^2
- A^2/c^2 -> -2A/c^2
(2A/c^2 + )-2A/c^2 + 5000/c^2 = 0 (+ 2A/c^2)
(c^2 * )5000/c^2 = 2A/c^2 (* c^2)
5000 = 2A
2500 = A
Let me know if I messed up somewhere, I normally let my spreadsheets do this stuff.
 

JiggyNinja

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 14, 2018
Messages
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If I'm understanding this correctly, you are calculating the stats that would maximize damage output while minimizing damage input? Going by the 85% RDO there are 5 spirits that are close to that: James McCloud, Pit (Original), Octopus, Tsubasa Oribe (Carnage Form), and Mecha-Fiora.
Specifically, the best overall combination of stats if there is a limited sum of them to go around. I focused on differing allocations of a constant sum just as a rough model of how I see spirits of the same rank balanced against each other. Ones with a high defense will have a low attack stat, and vise versa. Obviously if one spirit has strictly higher stats than the other, then it is better even if the ratio is not ideal. So I should still run this calculation on all the spirits to see which ones have the highest RDO value.

As for Amiibo I've been doing some testing with them on the side. Sadly I don't think a RDO of 85% works for them because their stat formula uses a different coefficient than 0.4 or 0.6; there is very little information online about them so I understand why it would be assumed that they are the same. They actually use 1/3.25 (or 4/13, which gives 0.3076923...) for both ATK and DEF. At lvl 50 they have a base multiplier of 1.3 on ATK and DEF and then apply their stats, which maxes out at 5000 between the two (so it is not possible to have 5000/5000, 2500/2800, or anything where A+D>5000). I think a 2500/2500 is the best considering the identical coefficients.

(I'm substituting 3.25 for 'c' to simplify the math)
RDO = (1 + 1/c * A) * (1 + 1/c * (5000 - A))
RDO = (1+ A/c) * (1 + 5000/c - A/c)
RDO = 1 + 5000/c - A/c +A/c + (5000 * A)/c^2 - A^2/c^2
The following I'm not 100% confident in since I've not touched calculus in a while
(5000 * A)/c^2 -> 5000/c^2
- A^2/c^2 -> -2A/c^2
(2A/c^2 + )-2A/c^2 + 5000/c^2 = 0 (+ 2A/c^2)
(c^2 * )5000/c^2 = 2A/c^2 (* c^2)
5000 = 2A
2500 = A
Let me know if I messed up somewhere, I normally let my spreadsheets do this stuff.
Fortunately algebraic equations are the easiest ones to remember how to differentiate. And I got the same answer as you. For A+D=1, the maximum value is at A=1/2.
 

CanvasK

Smash Cadet
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Jun 4, 2019
Messages
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Fortunately algebraic equations are the easiest ones to remember how to differentiate. And I got the same answer as you. For A+D=1, the maximum value is at A=1/2.
Good to know I haven't forgotten my math.

Specifically, the best overall combination of stats if there is a limited sum of them to go around. I focused on differing allocations of a constant sum just as a rough model of how I see spirits of the same rank balanced against each other. Ones with a high defense will have a low attack stat, and vise versa. Obviously if one spirit has strictly higher stats than the other, then it is better even if the ratio is not ideal. So I should still run this calculation on all the spirits to see which ones have the highest RDO value.
The spirits I mentioned were based on ATK/DEF = 85%. If the restriction is also a Power of 10000 then the closest would be James McCloud and Octopus and the rest would be wrong. I tried to replace 10000 with P (Power) to generalize it and stopped at 1 + 6E-4P - 2E-4A + 24E-8PA - 24E-8A^2. I don't know where to go from there, but I could probably just use my spreadsheet and use the un-simplified function.
 

JiggyNinja

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Messages
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So I did the math again, and discovered that my solution only works for A+D = 10,000. CanvasK has the full equation after multiplying it out. What you need to do after that is differentiate it by the variable A, treating P as a constant. The works out to D' = -2e-4 + 24e-8P -48e-8A. Set D' to 0 and solve for A to get A = 0.5P - 417. Now, for any amount of total power, you can calculate the ideal distribution of ATK/DEF. As a first-pass sanity check, plugging 10,000 into my new equation gives exactly the same maximum point I calculated previously. And surprisingly, that linear offset in the derivative means it's not a constant proportion. For lower amounts of total power, the ideal distribution is much more heavily imbalanced in favor of the defense stat.

For example, for a total sum of only 500 points, the ideal distribution is to put them all into defense, Any amount of points moved into attack decreases your relative damage output. Technically speaking the ideal point would be with negative attack, but that's impossible in the game so 0 is the closest you can get.

So for the high end (Legend and Ace spirits), you want ones with stats that are close to equal, but with Defense a bit higher than Attack. For the low end (Novices), you want almost all the stats dumped into defense, with only a small amount wasted in the attack stat.
 

CanvasK

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Jun 4, 2019
Messages
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So I did the math again, and discovered that my solution only works for A+D = 10,000. CanvasK has the full equation after multiplying it out. What you need to do after that is differentiate it by the variable A, treating P as a constant. The works out to D' = -2e-4 + 24e-8P -48e-8A. Set D' to 0 and solve for A to get A = 0.5P - 417. Now, for any amount of total power, you can calculate the ideal distribution of ATK/DEF. As a first-pass sanity check, plugging 10,000 into my new equation gives exactly the same maximum point I calculated previously. And surprisingly, that linear offset in the derivative means it's not a constant proportion. For lower amounts of total power, the ideal distribution is much more heavily imbalanced in favor of the defense stat.

For example, for a total sum of only 500 points, the ideal distribution is to put them all into defense, Any amount of points moved into attack decreases your relative damage output. Technically speaking the ideal point would be with negative attack, but that's impossible in the game so 0 is the closest you can get.

So for the high end (Legend and Ace spirits), you want ones with stats that are close to equal, but with Defense a bit higher than Attack. For the low end (Novices), you want almost all the stats dumped into defense, with only a small amount wasted in the attack stat.
Glad to know I was on the right track. For some reason I tried to differentiate both A and P, the issue being I have never done a multi-variable derivative and got stuck.

Using the formula A = 0.5P - 417 and brute forcing it against all the primaries (ignoring abilities) the spirit that is the closest to the 'perfect attack' is Vivian, being only 2 points below. James McCloud is the closest Legend class with 13.5 points too many. Absolutely Safe Capsule (obviously) is the furthest, The Mighty Jinjonator is next after ignoring ASC, and then Spring Man as the furthest non-ASC, non-DLC spirit.

EDIT: I'm trying to figure out how to incorporate abilities. I think if I divide A by the ability's attack multiplier it works, as it would lower the bar for a normally weaker spirit. For example a spirit with 850 atk is on par with a spirit with 935 attack after a 1.1 multiplier. Defense is effectively the inverse so multiply A by the defense multiplier.

I feel like I may be going at it the wrong way. Skarmory, as an example, has a (true) Power of 5538 and would therefore need a 'perfect attack' of 2352. Skarmory also has Electric Weakness, increasing the damage it takes from electric attacks by 1.2. Going by my above thoughts it would need a 'perfect attack' of 1960. But shouldn't it require more attack to make up for its weakness? Maybe if I multiply attack and divide defense? Or multiply/divide both?
 
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JiggyNinja

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Dec 14, 2018
Messages
275
Abilities are just straight multipliers. They will scale the values of the RDO function, but they won't change the location of the maximum value. The extra constant multiplier just gets divided out when you solve for 0. The same goes for type advantage too.
For example a spirit with 850 atk is on par with a spirit with 935 attack after a 1.1 multiplier. Defense is effectively the inverse so multiply A by the defense multiplier.
The stats don't work like that because they are an addition to the damage you do, not an overall multiplier. The +1 in the equation means you need to add a constant value, then perform the multiplication, then subtract the constant back out. 850 Attack with a 1.1 multiplier should do as much damage as a 1,185 Attack spirit. For Attack the constant is 2,500 (1 / 0.0004) and for Defense it is 1,667 (1 / 0.0006). The conversion for 850 Attack with a 1.1 multiplier is (850 + 2500) * 1.1 - 2500 = 1185.

Though this kind of calculation isn't really relevant to stat optimization since as I said before, constant multipliers do not change the optimum stat values.
 

CanvasK

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Messages
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The stats don't work like that because they are an addition to the damage you do, not an overall multiplier. The +1 in the equation means you need to add a constant value, then perform the multiplication, then subtract the constant back out. 850 Attack with a 1.1 multiplier should do as much damage as a 1,185 Attack spirit. For Attack the constant is 2,500 (1 / 0.0004) and for Defense it is 1,667 (1 / 0.0006). The conversion for 850 Attack with a 1.1 multiplier is (850 + 2500) * 1.1 - 2500 = 1185.

Though this kind of calculation isn't really relevant to stat optimization since as I said before, constant multipliers do not change the optimum stat values.
You'd think after 10 months of testing I would have remembered to do the stat formula before the ability multiplier. My mistake.

I'm trying to get on the same page and I spent the past 1.5 hrs trying to do so. I think I had it then maybe lost it again. The conclusion I'm currently at is that the optimum stats given by the A formula is the same regardless of what abilities it has?
 

JiggyNinja

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Messages
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I'm trying to get on the same page and I spent the past 1.5 hrs trying to do so. I think I had it then maybe lost it again. The conclusion I'm currently at is that the optimum stats given by the A formula is the same regardless of what abilities it has?
Correct, at least in this model that is concerned purely with damage output. It might skew more in favor of attack if the Attack stat or abilities influence knockback, but I'm not certain that it does. I've seen a Little Mac do 0% -> 120% with a single Fsmash, and the opponent basically goes nowhere. If I'm interpreting the KB formula correctly then that kind of attack should launch the opponent at Ludicrous Speed. Spirit mode buffs seem to be ignored by the KB formula, or at the very least do not strongly influence it.
 
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CanvasK

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Messages
27
I think my confusion was that I was going backwards. The formula is for ideal stats, whereas I was attempting (and failing) to push existing spirits into the ideal stats.
It might skew more in favor of attack if the Attack stat or abilities influence knockback, but I'm not certain that it does. I've seen a Little Mac do 0% -> 120% with a single Fsmash, and the opponent basically goes nowhere. If I'm interpreting the KB formula correctly then that kind of attack should launch the opponent at Ludicrous Speed. Spirit mode buffs seem to be ignored by the KB formula, or at the very least do not strongly influence it.
On the wiki it says that as knockback gets higher it will increase the speed and the speed decay rate (causing the "balloon knockback"), which may explain why Little Mac doesn't OH-KO with Fsmash. I gave Mac Giga Mac with Fist, Physical, and Hyper Smash, used a fully charged Fsmash and it sent Ridley from 0 to well past FD blastzone in training. But if the decay didn't increase, I think he would have gone much further.

I sadly don't have a way to reliably test if abilities modify knockback directly or only indirectly with damage. I can base it off the top speed (km/h) on the result screen but I don't know how to go from KB -> top speed (or launch speed -> top speed), so I can't tell if it is a result of higher damage or a knockback multiplier. The extra increased launch speed at higher knockback muddies it a bit more.
 

JiggyNinja

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
275
I think my confusion was that I was going backwards. The formula is for ideal stats, whereas I was attempting (and failing) to push existing spirits into the ideal stats.
On the wiki it says that as knockback gets higher it will increase the speed and the speed decay rate (causing the "balloon knockback"), which may explain why Little Mac doesn't OH-KO with Fsmash. I gave Mac Giga Mac with Fist, Physical, and Hyper Smash, used a fully charged Fsmash and it sent Ridley from 0 to well past FD blastzone in training. But if the decay didn't increase, I think he would have gone much further.

I sadly don't have a way to reliably test if abilities modify knockback directly or only indirectly with damage. I can base it off the top speed (km/h) on the result screen but I don't know how to go from KB -> top speed (or launch speed -> top speed), so I can't tell if it is a result of higher damage or a knockback multiplier. The extra increased launch speed at higher knockback muddies it a bit more.
Maybe WoL and the Spirit Board are different? I definitely saw in one of Alpharads's WoL videos (could be One Punch Mac) where he Fsmashed an enemy at 0% with giant Little Mac. It did 120%, but with nowhere near enough knockback to kill. It took a second hit to win the fight. And I know from my own experience that fishing for an Fsmash right away has rarely killed even when I have an overpowered spirit. I've learned to do a jab or tilt first, then the kill is much more certain.

I had hoped my exercise in math would uncover some surprise insight about how good certain spirits are that wasn;t expected, but it turns out the vast majority of them are actually pretty good. I took Canvas's spirit list, and for each Spirit I calculated the RDO for the stats the have as the RDO they would have if their stat points were distributed optimally.

The Spirit with the highest real RDO (just considering stats) is surprisingly Akuma, with an RDO of 17.44. The ideal RDO for his amount of stats would be 18.17, so he's at 96% of the ideal damage output. In fact, almost all the spirits have a surprisingly high RDO efficiency (actual / optimal RDO %). Absolutely Safe Capsule is the worst, scoring an abysmal 58%. But above that, the second least efficient spirit in the game, is Spring Man with a score of 84%. Every spirit in the game except 1 is at least 84% efficient with their stat distribution. Even very lopsided spirits have surprising good RDO efficiencies, like Metal Mario (89.8%), Guile (91.7%), and The Mighty Jinjonator (86%).

So the takeaway is, barring some special cases, almost all the spirits in the game are close enough to the ideal RDO that you don't need to worry about their stats that much. The one major special case is if healing is available in the fight, either through items or a spirit ability. Because healing is a fixed amount of damage%, they benefit much more from increasing your defense instead of your attack. I'm not certain how to quantify that, but the bias is there.
 

CanvasK

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 4, 2019
Messages
27
Maybe WoL and the Spirit Board are different? I definitely saw in one of Alpharads's WoL videos (could be One Punch Mac) where he Fsmashed an enemy at 0% with giant Little Mac. It did 120%, but with nowhere near enough knockback to kill. It took a second hit to win the fight. And I know from my own experience that fishing for an Fsmash right away has rarely killed even when I have an overpowered spirit. I've learned to do a jab or tilt first, then the kill is much more certain.
I think I found the video you were talking about. Giant Mac vs Ice Climbers (Lapras) and they barely went anywhere. Did some testing and I suspect that he may have used a downwards Fsmash. A fully charged straight Fsmash sent Ridley past the 31-32 marker, while a fully charged downwards Fsmash only went to around 11-12. I even checked against a Shield spirit and they seemed to go further despite the advantage over Attack, but that may be because I raised their damage to match the output. So my guess is a downwards Fsmash. I also saw a similar thing in another video, but that was Stamina so of course the knockback acts differently there.

I'm amused at how frequently Absolutely Safe Capsule is always the odd one out. RDO? Worst. Rank 4 multiplier? 2.046 instead of 2.5. Only summon spirit that needs another summon. Doesn't benefit from same series bonus. What other things is ASC an outlier in?

EDIT: I finally got around to testing Poison Power Up again. The speed multiplier is 1.5. The assist trophy Yuri Kozukata uses true poison, so that made testing outside of spirit battles easy.
 
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