Sora Unlocks the Door! (Roxas as an Echo?)

Sora's chances of getting in?


  • Total voters
    304
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
14,211
Location
Somewhere in the West.
If this is true, then the "original characters loophole" theory is looking like it might be plausible after all.

While KH is known for its use of Disney characters, there's actually plenty of Final Fantasy characters who show up as well. That currently don't have any spirits.

It all depends on just how much Disney emphasis there will be in upcoming KH projects. As far as I know, Re:Mind generally focused on the KH originals.
 

Cadillac

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 29, 2019
Messages
223
If this is true, then the "original characters loophole" theory is looking like it might be plausible after all.

While KH is known for its use of Disney characters, there's actually plenty of Final Fantasy characters who show up as well. That currently don't have any spirits.

It all depends on just how much Disney emphasis there will be in upcoming KH projects. As far as I know, Re:Mind generally focused on the KH originals.
Wait so we might get spirit of Sephiroth?
 

Hadokeyblade

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 5, 2018
Messages
2,297
If this is true, then the "original characters loophole" theory is looking like it might be plausible after all.

While KH is known for its use of Disney characters, there's actually plenty of Final Fantasy characters who show up as well. That currently don't have any spirits.

It all depends on just how much Disney emphasis there will be in upcoming KH projects. As far as I know, Re:Mind generally focused on the KH originals.
What loophole is this?
 

timrtabor123

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 3, 2018
Messages
22
Conspiracy time: What if Disney and Nintendo are still negotiating rights and this Imran story is only getting leaked out because one side wants leverage on the other? Kinda like what is said to have happened between Sony Pictures and Disney for Spider-Man MCU contract renewal.
 

M@R!3

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2019
Messages
276
Conspiracy time: What if Disney and Nintendo are still negotiating rights and this Imran story is only getting leaked out because one side wants leverage on the other? Kinda like what is said to have happened between Sony Pictures and Disney for Spider-Man MCU contract renewal.
Doubtful, unless Nintendo is doing some early negotiating for more characters post Fighters Pass 2. I'm thinking these negotiations were for base Ultimate/Fighters Pass 1. Why speculate Sora could still be coming if talks for Pass 2 had already failed?
 
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
14,211
Location
Somewhere in the West.
Doubtful, unless Nintendo is doing some early negotiating for more characters post Fighters Pass 2. I'm thinking these negotiations were for base Ultimate/Fighters Pass 1. Why speculate Sora could still be coming if talks for Pass 2 had already failed?
Yeah, that goes with what I was just thinking...

If the initial talks happened during 2018, it would make sense, as Disney would be far less willing to allow Sora in the base game, as that would prevent them from getting a cut of the game's profit.
 

M@R!3

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2019
Messages
276
Probably. Granted, Nomura designs for this series too, so it's hard to tell at this stage. Depends on how lax Disney is about the KH-specific FF designs. :drshrug:
Pretty sure Square owns the rights to the KH variations of the FF characters. Both KH Cloud and Squall are in Dissidia NT as purchasable costumes. Squall even has a gunblade version of Sleeping Lion. There's absolutely no mention of Disney in the copyright info.
Yeah, that goes with what I was just thinking...

If the initial talks happened during 2018, it would make sense, as Disney would be far less willing to allow Sora in the base game, as that would prevent them from getting a cut of the game's profit.
Considering KH3 was still in development at the time I'm not sure profit would've been the problem (though DLC would certainly be a better fit). Disney's top priority at the time of base game and FP1 character selection would've been finishing KH3.
 
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
14,211
Location
Somewhere in the West.
Pretty sure Square owns the rights to the KH variations of the FF characters. Both KH Cloud and Squall are in Dissidia NT as purchasable costumes. Squall even has a gunblade version of Sleeping Lion. There's absolutely no mention of Disney in the copyright info.

Considering KH3 was still in development at the time I'm not sure profit would've been the problem (though DLC would certainly be a better fit). Disney's top priority at the time of base game and FP1 character selection would've been finishing KH3.
Hmm, good point. Not enough time to negotiate about sneaking in a spirit or anything for advertising it, KH3 had been delayed enough.

In any case, we'll supposedly get a general Direct next week. If we take Sakurai's claim about the next character taking a little more time to prepare with face value (which is likely, as he doesn't really use double-meaning), we might see a teaser trailer for them then.
 

fogbadge

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
8,168
Location
Scotland
Hmm, good point. Not enough time to negotiate about sneaking in a spirit or anything for advertising it, KH3 had been delayed enough.

In any case, we'll supposedly get a general Direct next week. If we take Sakurai's claim about the next character taking a little more time to prepare with face value (which is likely, as he doesn't really use double-meaning), we might see a teaser trailer for them then.
i dont think we'll see anything by e3
 

Double0Groove

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 6, 2015
Messages
428
WOOOOO! Finally. A controversy for Sora that's both embarrassingly easy to deal with AND puts him at the center of attention! If we play our cards right, we can make this work in our favor very easily!

Saw the moment in question, all of it 100% speculation. So that means that there's no source confirming that these talks happened. It's just assumed thanks to the fighters pass being decided already!

Anybody relying on this is just gonna look bad and it's amazing.
 
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
14,211
Location
Somewhere in the West.
Were probably never gonna k ow if this actually happened considering how tight lipped both parties are.

Heck, because of that even if he did make it in we wouldn't know until the direct he's revealed in, I would assume the NDA for him would be so strict that anyone who broke it would never be heard from again.
You know what the real kicker would be? Him being saved for another pass and not this one. Which wouldn't even be mentioned until this one is nearly finished, a year or so later.

The impatient moron commenters who badger Sabi on Twitter really have no idea how risky being a leaker or insider is. It's almost like being a spy.
 

Double0Groove

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 6, 2015
Messages
428
Were probably never gonna k ow if this actually happened considering how tight lipped both parties are.

Heck, because of that even if he did make it in we wouldn't know until the direct he's revealed in, I would assume the NDA for him would be so strict that anyone who broke it would never be heard from again.
Assumptions, assumptions... At this point, it doesn't matter. He's either in right now or he's not. That podcast made the best point possible by saying the negotiations for fighters pass 2 is already done. We can only speculate on Sora's chances, which I still think are pretty good.
 
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
14,211
Location
Somewhere in the West.
Until then, the current state of affairs in the fanbase is pretty much these images:

c14fcf4d556e1002aec79e217d9f505fd088aa496cf8aeca98aab692d8933191.jpg

unnamed.jpg

Business as usual, overall. If we're not going to hear anything until E3, the hypothetical general Direct better have some neat stuff in it to tide the wait a bit.
 
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
14,211
Location
Somewhere in the West.
I'll be very surprised if we get anything Smash related before E3. Some quality KH ports for Switch would be appreciated in the meantime.
That's assuming we won't get another console-exclusive spin-off that becomes relevant later, due to complexity addiction. :4pacman:

In all seriousness though, I would expect a port for Super Mario 3D World, at the very least. It's been long enough.
 

M@R!3

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2019
Messages
276
That's assuming we won't get another console-exclusive spin-off that becomes relevant later, due to complexity addiction. :4pacman:

In all seriousness though, I would expect a port for Super Mario 3D World, at the very least. It's been long enough.
Given how many KH projects are in the works right now that's a legitimate possibility. Thirteen years from now they'll probably have to do another multi-platform port compilation.
 

Hadokeyblade

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 5, 2018
Messages
2,297
Hypothetically Sora would be the final character in a pass. Not to close out the pass with a bang but because that way they wouldn't have to renew the license because the game is dead.

That's 4D chess thinking right there.
 

Nazyrus

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 10, 2018
Messages
1,916
I’m having a good chuckle to all the people who put this whole thing out of context and really thought that this made Sora deconfirmed.
Yeah… it's always that one side of the coin called the smash fandom, that wants a character deconfirmed no matter what and twists everything and takes things out of context for the sake of hatred towards the character and bullying its fans. Sora happens to be one on the spotlight because he is one of the most wanted/hated at the same time, but it really applies to any character now. Hell Geno has it rough too with so many bullies trying so hard to deconfirm him with their fan rules that they so like to call "facts".

In the end, It's so simple, If they speculated "it would be sora or chief", what sense does it make to give a deconfirmation afterwards to one of those two characters? Makes no sense, why would he speculate a character to just deconfirm it seconds later lol. People need to use their brains, ears and eyes properly if they don't wanna end looking like fools.
 
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
14,211
Location
Somewhere in the West.
Misinterpretation happens in any fandom. Case in point, many new and uninformed Crash Bandicoot fans freak out over the mobile spin-off leak, even though those usually accompany a major entry. Far from a Rayman case on that one, really.

I'm still waiting for a Pikmin 3 port... I love that game.
To this day, those who heard Miyamoto say whispers about a Pikmin 4 are still confused.
 
Last edited:

TriggerX

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 5, 2018
Messages
271
I'm not sure what to make of Imran "Comments Disabled" Khan's statements. It's impossible to tell if he's just speculating or framing insider info as speculation. If we hear some similar info from different sources then I'll be more willingly to believe it, but even then, when this conversation happened is really important. If it occurred back for base Ultimate/Fighter's Pass 1 then of course Disney of Japan got in the way. We know from HMK that Disney wouldn't have been open to discussions for licensing during KH3's development, but if these talks happened around the E3 2019 time frame then we're out of the running.

At the moment I'm finding it hard to keep my hopes up. We recently got a large amount of information regarding upcoming KH projects, and some of those could easily be grounds for denying licensing requests.
Honestly If any of this is true, its good news. You at least know there was some form contact made between the two companies on the subject, which would simply mean Sora is on Nintendo’s radar.

Most of the characters people are speculating don’t even have that.
Besides with the addition of a 6th character, who knows, maybe Sora was a late add because Disney reached back out to Nintendo regarding the opportunity.

If anything, how Sora was handled in past dlc situations (Brave,World of FF) seems to be the most Incriminating evidence of his viability for the roster.
 

Altais

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
2,023
Location
Starbase, where no turtle has gone before.
I read somewhere that Disney actually had a hand in KH3's terrible plot. It wasn't the developers' fault the story was so cheesy and convoluted; Disney actually forced them to write it that way. If this is true, then I've lost some respect for Disney. KH3 was supposed to be a grand conclusion, but was ruined by bad writing. Personally, the reason why I liked ReMind so much was that the new cutscenes & boss fights managed to recapture the brutal difficulty the KH series is known for, as well as the healthy mix between Disney's lightheartedness and Final Fantasy's darker tones. Sadly, though, ReMind was not without its flaws. I have to agree with some people, whom complained about the rehashed boss fights.

Still, though, in the end the important thing is the developers learnt from their mistakes. I hope future KH games, be they spinoffs or numbered titles, will preserve the brutal difficulty and heart-wrenching plots the KH series is known for.
 

GhostRoy

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 29, 2014
Messages
15
Location
Grand Rapids, MI United States of America
NNID
RoyUchiha
I wanna say I wish Kingdom Hearts would free itself from Disney all together and just continue with exclusively its own content, but at the same time I don't as I would have never gotten to explore worlds such as Big Hero 6, Toy Story, and Monsters Inc along with future possibilities being Star Wars/Marvel.
 

TriggerX

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 5, 2018
Messages
271
I read somewhere that Disney actually had a hand in KH3's terrible plot. It wasn't the developers' fault the story was so cheesy and convoluted; Disney actually forced them to write it that way. If this is true, then I've lost some respect for Disney. KH3 was supposed to be a grand conclusion, but was ruined by bad writing. Personally, the reason why I liked ReMind so much was that the new cutscenes & boss fights managed to recapture the brutal difficulty the KH series is known for, as well as the healthy mix between Disney's lightheartedness and Final Fantasy's darker tones. Sadly, though, ReMind was not without its flaws. I have to agree with some people, whom complained about the rehashed boss fights.

Still, though, in the end the important thing is the developers learnt from their mistakes. I hope future KH games, be they spinoffs or numbered titles, will preserve the brutal difficulty and heart-wrenching plots the KH series is known for.
If I’m not mistaken Disney was just way too involved with which Disney worlds and Disney plots the team could use and how they could use them.
As far as the underlying original story, I would say Nomura was probably still at fault for that.

Essentially Disney had a lot of say in what worlds and their content, and because most of the worlds were newer, the approval process was lengthened

Personally I really do enjoy the Disney worlds in KH, but some worlds in KH3 definitely felt forced. I feel like they’ve been ruining the series over time. Already decided awhile back that if Kh4 doesn’t solve the issues I had with KH3 I’ll be done with the series.

Might be this interview-

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.usgamer.net/amp/tetsuya-nomura-kingdom-hearts-3-interview

Unfortunately, this goes to show you that even Square has ”issues” working with Disney for Kingdom Hearts.
 

Herocin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 29, 2019
Messages
460
This probably bodes well for sora but it could be nothing but around the 26 minute mark Kahn says he expects either Sora or Chief. This probably means it’s no kind of deconfirmation and was speculation
 

M@R!3

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2019
Messages
276
I read somewhere that Disney actually had a hand in KH3's terrible plot. It wasn't the developers' fault the story was so cheesy and convoluted; Disney actually forced them to write it that way. If this is true, then I've lost some respect for Disney. KH3 was supposed to be a grand conclusion, but was ruined by bad writing. Personally, the reason why I liked ReMind so much was that the new cutscenes & boss fights managed to recapture the brutal difficulty the KH series is known for, as well as the healthy mix between Disney's lightheartedness and Final Fantasy's darker tones. Sadly, though, ReMind was not without its flaws. I have to agree with some people, whom complained about the rehashed boss fights.

Still, though, in the end the important thing is the developers learnt from their mistakes. I hope future KH games, be they spinoffs or numbered titles, will preserve the brutal difficulty and heart-wrenching plots the KH series is known for.
It wasn't so much Disney as a whole rather than the people in charge of certain IPs KH3 worked with. Pixar, and the teams behind Frozen, Tangled, and Big Hero 6 are all still active forces at Disney with a vested interest in how the characters they created are treated and used. Pixar specifically asked that Nomura write original plots for the Toy Story and Monsters Inc. worlds. Frozen was stated to have the most guidelines out of every single world in the game, and they're absolutely the reason that world's plot does everything it can to sanitize itself of any KH alterations and interactions. Some of the creators also required Nomura to write the worlds plot out prior to starting work on building the world in game. This certainly contributed to KH3's pacing issues and disjointed world plots. KH had been very lucky up until this point to have a large number of classic properties to work with and little to no creator interference. Had Nomura pushed harder for more recent properties back during say, KH2, I think he would've run into the same issues.

As far as bad writing.... you can fix the pacing, you can make the worlds tie in with the plot, but there's no fixing the plot itself. If that's a problem the time to get off the ride was back when DDD came out. Or ask for a reboot, but that sounds far more nightmarish. I'm here because I enjoy the crazy plot, but I love the gameplay. Nothing else plays like KH.

I do hope they continue the tradition of including hard as nails post game content, but the main stories have never been challenging. I'm a bit worried the backlash the casual side of the KH community is directing at Remind's data battles may result in that sort of content being dropped entirely. At least the new abilities show Osaka has clearly learned how to do tight combat. Hopefully they don't disregard that just because the next game is "different/new".
 
Last edited:

Hadokeyblade

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 5, 2018
Messages
2,297
It wasn't so much Disney as a whole rather than the people in charge of certain IPs KH3 worked with. Pixar, and the teams behind Frozen, Tangled, and Big Hero 6 are all still active forces at Disney with a vested interest in how the characters they created are treated and used. Pixar specifically asked that Nomura write original plots for the Toy Story and Monsters Inc. worlds. Frozen was stated to have the most guidelines out of every single world in the game, and they're absolutely the reason that world's plot does everything it can to sanitize itself of any KH alterations and interactions. Some of the creators also required Nomura to write the worlds plot out prior to starting work on building the world in game. This certainly contributed to KH3's pacing issues and disjointed world plots. KH had been very lucky up until this point to have a large number of classic properties to work with and little to no creator interference. Had Nomura pushed harder for more recent properties back during say, KH2, I think he would've run into the same issues.

As far as bad writing.... you can fix the pacing, you can make the worlds tie in with the plot, but there's no fixing the plot itself. If that's a problem the time to get off the ride was back when DDD came out. Or ask for a reboot, but that sounds far more nightmarish. I'm here because I enjoy the crazy plot, but I love the gameplay. Nothing else plays like KH.

I do hope they continue the tradition of including hard as nails post game content, but the main stories have never been challenging. I'm a bit worried the backlash the casual side of the KH community is directing at Remind's data battles may result in that sort of content being dropped entirely. At least the new abilities show Osaka has clearly learned how to do tight combat. Hopefully they don't disregard that just because the next game is "different/new".
Not gonna lie Pixar seems fun to work with if the end result is the most fun worlds in the game.
 

M@R!3

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2019
Messages
276
Not gonna lie Pixar seems fun to work with if the end result is the most fun worlds in the game.
No, Pixar was pretty reasonable from what was said. Frozen is really the only one where it's blatantly obvious Nomura wasn't allowed any real freedom. I can't remember if Pirates had any restrictions, or if it was simply the complexity of the second and third movies plots that resulted in Sora and co. getting separated for most of the world.
 

Professor Pumpkaboo

Lady Layton| Trap Queen♥
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
67,546
Location
IDOLM@STER Side M Hell, Virginia Beach
NNID
UID:chiefjafar
Switch FC
SW: 5586-2837-4585
No, Pixar was pretty reasonable from what was said. Frozen is really the only one where it's blatantly obvious Nomura wasn't allowed any real freedom. I can't remember if Pirates had any restrictions, or if it was simply the complexity of the second and third movies plots that resulted in Sora and co. getting separated for most of the world.
The pirates world did have snippits from the movie recreated but Sora still interacted a bit with Jack and the characters unlike Frozen where Sora didnt even talk to Elsa and the only tine I remeber Sora talking to the others was once in the stupid olaf minigame
 
Last edited:

Nazyrus

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 10, 2018
Messages
1,916
Tbh there is probably no probably about it. Doesn’t make much sense to predict him but then deconfirm him shortly after
Yeah this isn't a matter of perspective, it's factual that he is purely speculating and he only confirmed who would retain sora from smash, being disney of japan. He doesn't say disney denied sora already or anything (nor it would make sense to be the case because he is STILL speculating him or chief). The only thing he "feels" sure about is that Nintendo must have already approached them at least once (and obviously because the characters for pass 2 have long ago been decided by now). There are no leaks or insider info in his words and the rules of the podcast was to talk about stuff they don't know about, therefore it's pure speculation. And yeah, people trying to twist it have no common sense in their brains, if they think "speculating 2 characters" and THEN seconds later "deconfirming one of them" would make ANY sense, they are wrong lol, like… nice try haters.
 
Last edited:
Top