Sonic's Pummel Info

[MarKO X]

A week or so ago in xat, KID was saying something along the lines of "People should pummel more." after watching Wafflez's Kirby pummel the **** out of Bowser. Since its free/extra damage after a grab, and since the grab game is/can be an integral part of playing Sonic, I've decided to see how many times you can pummel your opponent at various precents until they escape.

I took a Level 9 MetaKnight CPU to Final Destination in Training, and pummeled the **** out of him at various percents and this is what I found:

From 0-10%: Escaped after 1 pummel.
From 10-40%: Escaped after 2 pummels.
From 50-90%: Escaped after 3 pummels.
From 100-120%: Escaped after 4 pummels.
From 130-150%: Escaped after 5 pummels.
From 160-180%: Escaped after 6 pummels.
From 190-220%: Escaped after 6 to 7 pummels.
220% and Up: Escaped after 7 to 8 pummels.

So I did this, then I had some matches with a friend to test my results. He used Yoshi, Mario, and Sonic, and the pummeling escapes seemed to be consistent for the most part. At 0%, the oppoent can usually escape immediately after one pummel for free, so you're better off using uthrow for damage or dthrow for tech chasing/off-stage antics (that's wut I do). So the rule of thumb would be to subtract one from the number of pummels before the opponent escapes to determine how many times you should pummel an opponent at a given range of damage before using a throw.

Random application of pummeling:

You're opponent is at 80% damage. You grab the opponent, pummel him 3 times (9%) and hit him with a uthrow (12%) and the opponent received 21% damage for being grabbed. Sounds like fun, no? Also, that whole decay meter gets some kind of replenishment, so it helps that too.

So yeah, pummel moar.

 

[Trillion]

Very good thread MarKo. I had always wondered how many pummels I can get off and have recently been trying to incorporate them more. My friend, a Ness player, gets out a ton of pummels on every grab and kept telling me to use them more. This guide to pummeling will really help me to implement them better. Thanks a ton for making it and I agree we all need to pummel more.

 

[Chis]

Did you pummel as soon as Sonic's foot touched the ground? (the fastest way to pummel)?

 

[MarKO X]

Yes I did.

 

[Chis]

Ah good. Thanks for the thread, I pummel a lot and a lot of the time I'm not quite sure how many times I should do it.

 

[memphischains]

you should really get a partner to do this data with you rather than a CPU

 

[Chis]

you should really get a partner to do this data with you rather than a CPU

So I did this, then I had some matches with a friend to test my results. He used Yoshi, Mario, and Sonic, and the pummeling escapes seemed to be consistent for the most part. At 0%, the oppoent can usually escape immediately after one pummel for free, so you're better off using uthrow for damage or dthrow for tech chasing/off-stage antics (that's wut I do).

Just saying :/

 

[Trillion]

So, I was thinking about this some more just now, we can use this pummel thread in cross reference with Kinzer's up throw kill percentages thread in order to see how early we can kill with just a grab pummel to upthrow. Example: On Final Destination Jigglypuff gets KOed at 154% off the top from an upthrow according to Kinzer. If we subtract about 10% (I know you said 12% but when your fighting its quicker math to round it plus this will take into consideration diminishing returns) then we know that we should do an upthrow when the opponent is around 144%. This means that most likely we can grab around 133% and still get our kill as long as we do 4 pummels for 3% each.

 

[Chis]

Get Kinzer to remake the thread in smashboards?

 

[Trillion]

Get Kinzer to remake the thread in smashboards?

We can ask him, but I thought I remember him saying that he wanted it to stay on AiB. Idunno. If I happen to see him on the Xat I'll ask him.

 

[memphischains]

oh whoops, my b

 

[da K.I.D.]

also realise that hitting A with a consistent rhythim makes the pummles faster.

also, its VERY important to take the break out rates of each player individually.

i have friends that never break out of grabs and i have friends that are almost as crazy as reflex and break out after like 1-2 pummels at triple digits.

The point is, that you CAN NOT have a preset number of pummels in your head when you grab somebody because that will either 1. not get you the max potential %s, or 2. throw you off, when some body breaks out early. Its good to know what to expect, but you cant get to comfortable with it

 

[JayBee]

I almost never go over three pummels per grab, when at high percents. not due to any statistics though. im just making up the possibility of early break outs from human players.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Same here JB, but I usually find human reflexes to grabs to be far less efficient than a CPU's, so I can usually pummel more on him than on CPU.

 

[Tenki]

So, I was thinking about this some more just now, we can use this pummel thread in cross reference with Kinzer's up throw kill percentages thread in order to see how early we can kill with just a grab pummel to upthrow. Example: On Final Destination Jigglypuff gets KOed at 154% off the top from an upthrow according to Kinzer. If we subtract about 10% (I know you said 12% but when your fighting its quicker math to round it plus this will take into consideration diminishing returns) then we know that we should do an upthrow when the opponent is around 144%. This means that most likely we can grab around 133% and still get our kill as long as we do 4 pummels for 3% each.

Wait, when you say a jiggs dies at 154%, do you mean the % that the U-throw is started, or the ending % that the opponent dies on? I have always treated the written kill %'s as the % the opponent must be before taking the hit in order to die.

Same here JB, but I usually find human reflexes to grabs to be far less efficient than a CPU's, so I can usually pummel more on him than on CPU.

online?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Yep, online It's where my home is. But also on blue/green connections, it happens.

 

[Kinzer]

Well, I already knew a lot of the pummel numbers, but this is still a very good reference for other people.

Pummels are way too good, 3% damage a pop and refresh other moves/get kill moves easier to set up, I don't know why you wouldn't want to pummel save a few situations.

P.S. I'll get my thread exported back here sometime today.

 

[MarKO X]

Wait, when you say a jiggs dies at 154%, do you mean the % that the U-throw is started, or the ending % that the opponent dies on? I have always treated the written kill %'s as the % the opponent must be before taking the hit in order to die.

Ahh, good catch Tenki. I think it was an honest mistake on Mag's part, but yeah. You get the Jiggs at 142%, pummel four times, and boom, uthrow should kill.

 

[Jim Morrison]

If the Jigglypuff lives at 142% you are very obviously doing it wrong.

 

[da K.I.D.]

thats very true...

 

[Espy Rose]

I pummel quite often, and I listen to hear how fast the opponent is mashing buttons on the other controller and react.

Sonic's pummel is amazing, I don't know why people don't do it more often...

 

[Trillion]

Wait, when you say a jiggs dies at 154%, do you mean the % that the U-throw is started, or the ending % that the opponent dies on? I have always treated the written kill %'s as the % the opponent must be before taking the hit in order to die.

Oh, I haven't actually tested it myself. I thought that Kinzer's thread meant that they were going off the screen at 154% (which would be after the up throw). If he meant you should do the up throw at 154% then i guess that's a little different, but you get the general idea.

 

[MarKO X]

If the Jigglypuff lives at 142% you are very obviously doing it wrong.

Onto survivability. Surprisingly, Jiggs has fairly good horizontal survivability. In tourney settings, against high level players, I'll stress, I've had her live past 200%. Our dair is xrazy for Infzy DI, and our horizontal speed and acceleration allow us get back quickly. Now, obviously that limit WILL drop. But we don't die at 90% as everyone seems to think, in fact, I'd wager that we can kill you a heck of a lot earlier than you'll be able to kill us. Horizontally.

Just saying. He did go on to say that uair can (and will) kill Jiggs early, and that it would be a move for them to avoid. So if they're avoiding it like that, then hey, play to win.

 

[Nixernator]

For a fact people take ever so slightly longer to start their button mashing to escape, especially off a unexpected dashgrab. SO mostly you can can get 1 more pummel on humans than on computers I've found. Also some people get slack so if you hear them not mashing really fast pummel till they get released (I got 8 pummels on a guy at around 120% one time coz I'd been grabbing and immediately throwing it was lol).

 

[MorphedChaos]

I'd suggest if your doing it with a CPU, do a level 9 evasion CPU, those suckers are near impossible to catch if its a speedy character like MK, they are what I use to train Fiction's tire combo on, and I'll tell you, its a good idea, they get away better then some players.

 

[Tenki]

I'd suggest if your doing it with a CPU, do a level 9 evasion CPU, those suckers are near impossible to catch if its a speedy character like MK, they are what I use to train Fiction's tire combo on, and I'll tell you, its a good idea, they get away better then some players.

ay, but they suck on the ledge :/

and they also only exist in training mode.

Do they DI away though?