Brawl Matchup Chart v3 Sonic vs Luigi

C.J.

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Sonic panel wants a +1 on Luigi. Not sure if there was a discussion done on this last time or not. I will search through the previous discussions later and link the thread here if there is one (unless some kind soul wants to do it for me of course).

Debate away!
 

da K.I.D.

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With a defensive, runaway playstyle, sonic can keep luigi out well enough to hold any lead He gets on luigi his bair and run speed basically walls luigi enough to avoid a lot of hiz big damage setups.

:phone:
 

Exceladon City

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Luigi can blow through a LOT of Sonic's nonsense. However, all Sonic needs is a lead and Luigi is in hell. Luigi literally HAS to chase Sonic around and aim to punish SDRs, make trades and hope that you can figure out a way past spindash camping. Luigi's only real saving grace is his ability to kill at like 85% and since his kill moves tear through/trade with most of Sonic's arsenal, it shouldn't be too hard to land one on a rogue spindash...IF you have an idea of how Sonic operates. If not, good luck. +1 Sonic
 

MeekSpeedy

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The thing is about Luigi is that he CAN kill early...but Sonic does have the ability to play safe enough to keep himself out of situations that he'd get killed early in. Sonic has great out of shield options, and can feel safe with upB OoS when there's the typical Luigi mindset of waiting outside of someones shield to intimidate them into rolling.

Sonic can also easily hold a lead. Bair shuts down Luigi rather effectively, and spring gets you away from all of Luigis bread & butter.

On the other hand, Luigi DOES have good zoning tools and spindash counters, and his up-close game is more fearful. The problem with this is that if Sonic has a lead...then zoning his approach won't work since there won't be an approach. And if this is also the case...he'll never get a chance to really get up-close with Sonic.

With this being said, both players do start at 0% so the incentive to get a lead for Sonic can sometimes take a bit, and hold one can be tough for Luigi. If Sonic ever gets a stock lead, it's pretty well over. +1 sanic
 

yoshq

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Sonic has a fantastic camping game. And that's an interesting point that he can feel "safe" using OOS UpB. As far as bair, we are used to this. We can wait. Or PS. Luigi gets zoned out. It happens. It's not the end of the matchup.

It is definitely hard for Luigi to get in after Sonic gets the lead, but not impossible by any means. Luigi shuts down most of Sonic's options with a combination of nair, tornado, and fireball. Once on the ground, barring a spur of the moment spring, which one could learn to read, Sonic's stock is mince meat. I've also noticed a lot of his comboes start off of grabs. Luigi loves getting grabbed. It's his chance to land a surprise nair.
 

Espy Rose

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Sonic doesn't have any combos that start from a grab that aren't at 0% and guaranteed. That observation is false.

Sonic camps hard, and doesn't struggle as much as Luigi does if he loses the lead. Sonic has much more leniency on making errors than Luigi does as a result, and Luigi's KO power is somewhat moot if Sonic just decides to play it safe and just play around at a mid-range game.

I have nothing more to add that hasn't already been said by the other Sonics. :applejack:
 

BigLøu

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Sonic camps hard...as everyone already said. Luigi can cut through some of his approaches with his moveset but getting the lead again can be hard.
Solid +plus one for sonic
 

C.J.

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From a 3rd party view that has no particular care in this discussion (but I'm the panel leader so I get to post anyway- yay benefits):

From what has been said so far, the Sonics have convinced me. They have biglou in agreement as well.

I'm probably going to submit this as +1 Sonic unless there are any HUGE objections.

11:59pm Friday night (EST) is when I'll be submitting this if I don't hear anything.
 

yoshq

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Sonic doesn't have any combos that start from a grab that aren't at 0% and guaranteed. That observation is false.

Sonic camps hard, and doesn't struggle as much as Luigi does if he loses the lead. Sonic has much more leniency on making errors than Luigi does as a result, and Luigi's KO power is somewhat moot if Sonic just decides to play it safe and just play around at a mid-range game.

I have nothing more to add that hasn't already been said by the other Sonics. :applejack:
Sonic has much less leniency on making errors. Getting behind a bit holds no torch to getting 0-50% in two seconds after making a mistake. Sonic does have the advantage when playing safe, but it by no means moots Luigi's kill power. Sonic still has to come in if he's not in the lead, in which case Luigi kill at any point. And it's not even that hard for Luigi to get in on a camping Sonic.
From a 3rd party view that has no particular care in this discussion (but I'm the panel leader so I get to post anyway- yay benefits):

From what has been said so far, the Sonics have convinced me. They have biglou in agreement as well.

I'm probably going to submit this as +1 Sonic unless there are any HUGE objections.

11:59pm Friday night (EST) is when I'll be submitting this if I don't hear anything.
Oh, well then.
 

C.J.

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And it's not even that hard for Luigi to get in on a camping Sonic.
Elaborate please? Sonic's ability to camp out/run away from Luigi is important in how I'm looking at the MU atm and was also something that appears to really affect BigLou's decision.
 

Exceladon City

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Elaborate please? Sonic's ability to camp out/run away from Luigi is important in how I'm looking at the MU atm and was also something that appears to really affect BigLou's decision.
Sonic can Spindash camp Luigi so hard. It's a big threat to Luigi because of the 5-6 frames of invincibility on release. If Sonic decides to charge sideB with a percent lead, Luigi has to gamble to get Sonic out of it. Best bet is to mix up your ways to stop it before release. Alot of times most Sonics will jump out of it and reset if they can't guarantee a hit. Trust me, I play both of these characters, the match-up is super gay for Luigi.
 

C.J.

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From the arguments given, that was how I was looking at it. Yosh proffered that getting in on Sonic wasn't that hard, so I'm looking for an elaboration on that, if possible. If a sufficient argument for that can be made, then I'm hesitant to submit the proposed MU rating.
 

Exceladon City

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Sonic v Luigi

:luigi2:
- Punish head-on Spindashes with Weegee Nado.
- Keep approximate mid range spacing with Bair and Fireball.
- Jab -> UpB does not work.
- Luigi kills Sonic around 85-90% from a fresh Fsmash. If you wanna be safe, you can chop him at 100%.

:sonic:
- Bair safe on block.
- SDC (Spindash Charge aka SideB) beats all of Luigi's approaches.
- Spring gets Sonic out of Utilt strings, Dthrow follow ups after 20% and Jab -> SRK.
- Running is broken.
 

yoshq

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Sonic does not have a projectile. If he did, the matchup would be completely different. But as it is, Sonic's ability to camp Luigi depends largely on mindgaming him. If Luigi is not afraid of the spindash, then Sonic's power is greatly reduced. As I have mentioned, to approach Sonic, Luigi can use a combination of fireball, nado, and nair, all of which go through.... down b (?) and two of which go through moving side b (?) correct me if I'm wrong. But if Luigi bears in mind the possible invincibility Sonic may have on startup and does not try to challenge that, it's really not all that astronomical to assume that Luigi may be able to get in. Besides that, There are plenty of small stages for Luigi to CP to force Sonic to close the distance more often. And he can ban the large stage of his choice, or something like RC. This depends largely on matchup knowledge. My whole argument does, I suppose. But when the Luigi player is sufficiently informed concerning what to do and where to go, it's not that hard for him to get in.

Also, the spring <is> after all, his recovery. He is susceptible to attacks while coming down if put in a corner.

If you need more input, I will be glad to provide it.
 

da K.I.D.

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Sonic camping luigi isnt predicated on mind games. Its based on using sonics superior agility and speed to just avoid what luigi throws at him.

The side b hop beats all 3 of your main approaches. All 3 beat down b head to head, but the idea is to never be in that situation. When charging down b we can release it normally and jump when we hit you, we can jump early and go over you, we can let it time out in place, we can do an instant 45 degree angle jump, or an instant 90 degree vertical jump. And we can choose to double jump, homing attack or spring after any one of the previous options. The idea is to utilise all those options in order to never dirently down b roll into luigi when he can fireball nair or tornado it.

Also small nitpick, sonics falling spring does in fact classify as a projectile

:phone:
 

MeekSpeedy

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Sonics camping on EVERYONE is based off of these 3 questions

1. Do I have a lead? (If so then...)
2. Is it a stock lead? (If the answer is yes, then people are too slow and need to c'mon and step it up)
3. How much time is left?

There's no mindgame behind that...at all. If I have a stock lead and there's 2 minutes left, what am I going to do? run up sideB shield cancel roll crossup m1ndgam3z5s5zzz trix? Or run the **** away?

Sonic can just...sit there with sideB, and Luigi has close to no response to that...and if Sonic doesn't feel safe, he can spindash jump out of the sideB charge to a safer position. That, in combination with a move that is safe on block does not look good for Luigi.

Anyone who gets killed by Luigi early should feel stupid...'cause they are.
 

yoshq

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Sonic camping luigi isnt predicated on mind games. Its based on using sonics superior agility and speed to just avoid what luigi throws at him.
I would assert that when use of said agility and speed are compromised and an exchange happens, it's based on mindgames. Just like most exchanges in this game.
The side b hop beats all 3 of your main approaches. All 3 beat down b head to head, but the idea is to never be in that situation. When charging down b we can release it normally and jump when we hit you, we can jump early and go over you, we can let it time out in place, we can do an instant 45 degree angle jump, or an instant 90 degree vertical jump. And we can choose to double jump, homing attack or spring after any one of the previous options. The idea is to utilise all those options in order to never dirently down b roll into luigi when he can fireball nair or tornado it.

Also small nitpick, sonics falling spring does in fact classify as a projectile

:phone:
I understand and agree with what you're saying about the down b. However, the side b is still instant, iirc, which decreases mixup possibility.
 

C.J.

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While this one has been interesting and fun to read, I can't justify it going on to phase two. One member of the Luigi panel has also agreed to Sonic winning and after talking briefly to Espy about it this past weekend when I saw him, it seems like it is just fair/the Sonic panel has "earned" the ratio.

Submitting the change.
 
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