Brawl Matchup Chart v2 Sonic vs. Ice Climbers - Conceded at -1/+1

Espy Rose

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#1
Setting up the holder for the Sonic vs. cycle of this week. I'll post up thoughts later.

:sonic: vs. :popo: 0/+1
 

[FBC] ESAM

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#2
Patient Ice climbers = win

Sonic can't use much of his spin shield pressure effectively. Due to the doubled shield stun (Hitting both shields) we will be able to grab you out of it unless you jump early. Again, the key to this MU for ICs is NOT jumping the gun. Sonic doesn't have many choices while landing either. If you are spinning on-stage, we can throw out a SH uair where you would be if you kept moving. If it hits, now you are being juggled and are in a worse landing trap. If you jump, same situation, and we will be in the ground. If we think you will escape, throw an ice block or two over and start to go over there.

I can't imagine sonic being very good at killing nana either, but that may be inexperience in the MU. I think Sonic still has the tools to win, as he could easily time ICs out if he gets a big enough lead, but getting the lead, I feel, is really difficult as sonic.
 

Da1AndOnlySonic

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#3
Patient Ice climbers = win

Sonic can't use much of his spin shield pressure effectively. Due to the doubled shield stun (Hitting both shields) we will be able to grab you out of it unless you jump early. Again, the key to this MU for ICs is NOT jumping the gun. Sonic doesn't have many choices while landing either. If you are spinning on-stage, we can throw out a SH uair where you would be if you kept moving. If it hits, now you are being juggled and are in a worse landing trap. If you jump, same situation, and we will be in the ground. If we think you will escape, throw an ice block or two over and start to go over there.
Sonic can use his spin shield pressure effectively depending on where Sonic is hitting the shield. Yes, due to double shield stun he can be grabbed out of it, but that only applies if the spindash is on the front end of ICs shield, not the top/back end. You are absolutely right when you say that ICs shouldn't be jumping the gun, because Sonic can get in and out rather easily, as well as punish things other characters can't (like a synched blizzard with a well timed spincharge or even desync blizzard with a spindash jump to fast fall bair, preferably when ICs have a higher percentage just in case Popo shields because one of them will take the damage and knockback). On stages with platforms (which will almost always be the stage of play since FD should be getting the ban when facing ICs), spring is a very useful tool in getting out of an uncomfortable situation, especially if you sense a grab coming. ICs can juggle Sonic, true, but he has enough air speed and the assistance of his spindashes to get out of the situation and/or avoid the juggle. An example, if Sonic is coming in from off stage with his second jump still intact and ICs decide to u-air where he is about to be, he can either pull back on it since he still has some air mobility in his spindash, or he can can use the second jump for extra height and spindash again, canceling it as he lands (or jumping after landing depending on Sonic's position relative to ICs). The extra speed will prevent ICs from being able to punish him, whether grounded or in the air.

I can't imagine sonic being very good at killing nana either, but that may be inexperience in the MU. I think Sonic still has the tools to win, as he could easily time ICs out if he gets a big enough lead, but getting the lead, I feel, is really difficult as sonic.
Sonic definitely has the tools to take out Nana rather effectively. He doesn't have any gtfo moves like Ike's f-smash or Snake's f-smash etc, but he has the ground speed to get to Nana whenever she and Popo get separated (which can lead to an f-smash in the direction Nana is running to for school's out or sunset DI), he can keep her off stage with a series of fairs since she doesn't know what SDI is or bairs for more damage. He can do a very good job at juggling her, while often killing her off the top with the assistance of spring. This is especially useful since Popo doesn't really have a means to get up as high as Sonic can, and definitely not as quickly. I kind of wish I went to that NC tourney that recently passed, I could have played your ICs and gotten another perspective for the match-up (since my region has 2 ICs mains, one of which I play almost every day). I agree that Sonic could easily time out ICs if he has the lead, as I've done it before when I felt like it in my region (just not in tourney, I hate timing out even though I'd probably be better if I did it more often).

Basically both sides have to be very patient and look for openings in this match-up when played correctly. From my experience and the tools both characters have at their disposal, I have a very strong feeling that it is even.
 

Vinnie

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#4
Sonic isn't really that good vs ICs compared to the characters that actually have even or better matchup ratios vs ICs. Toon Link, Snake, Metaknight, zss, etc all have BLATANT strengths vs ICs, which is why they can put up enough of a fight to be 0 or +1 against them. Sonic is just... Sonic. He can time you out if you fall too behind, but you really shouldn't be getting bodied by Sonic in the first place.
 

ch33s3

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#5
ICs have the tools to very quickly take a stock off Sonic, while Sonic doesn't have that option. If Sonic makes a mistake, he gets punished for a stock, if ICs make a mistake they get hit with an average strength sonic attack (you can DI so that Nana doesn't get separated). ICs can zone Sonic very hard. Timing out the ICs is harder that you would think, the IC upair and bair does a lot of damage. This is one of those "well if Sonic was a little better it might be even" kind of deals in my mind. ICs win at least +1.
 

Espy Rose

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#6
Ice Climbers can't zone Sonic. The walls they can create are incredibly easy to exploit.
And cheese, all you discussed was a single Ice Climbers universal trait: That they can chaingrab from 0-death.

It's also incredibly easy to run away from Ice Climbers because their speed in the air and on the ground are both poor in comparison, and Sonic has an easy time not only separating them due to his multi hits and spins, but because he can consistently apply pressure to both of the separated Climbers simply because of his ground speed.

I'll talk more about it when I have more time. :applejack:
 

Sin242

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#7
+1 for ics at the worst, i'd say probably +2, its still winnable but very difficult. Sonic can't really do much if he's already in the air, and pretty much any stage but FD will give us enough room to chase. He can't really effectively poke without getting punished by something OoS or a grab
 

Espy Rose

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#9
On another note, Sonic's shield pressure on IC's is obscene when done from an angle similar to vs. Olimar. It puts pressure on the ICs while also putting Sonic in a crossover type situation that makes a grab impossible to land without some absurd shield DI into grab, of which is heavily impractical. :applejack:
 

ch33s3

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#10
Define impractical Espy. I can pretty consistently grab Sonic's bair on shield as ICs. Pivot grab also sort of destroys Sonic badly. Consider how many times you have to hit the ICs without being grabbed to take a stock. Then consider how hard hitting the ICs without getting powershielded, misspacing, pivot grabbed, or ISSDI grabbed is.

Yes I'm aware this is a universal trait for the ICs, but that doesn't change the impact it has on a MU.
 

Espy Rose

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#11
Impractical: As in not useful or practicable. Or, lack of utility in practice.

If you're grabbing Sonic's bair on shield, then there's three things going on here:
1) You're playing against a Sonic who is playing the match up incorrectly. Approaching with anything directly on their shield isn't as reliable as spins or springs.
2) You're playing against a bad Sonic. At the higher levels of gameplay, bair is typically omitted in those scenarios (especially against this character) favor of more versatile methods of pressure.
3) Despite the above two, a properly spaced bair is difficult, if not impossible, to grab.

Pivot grab is only an option when you have space to work with, and when you're in the lead. Both of these are options Sonic can easily turn towards his favor since it's fairly easy to damage the ICs, and his movement speed constantly disrupts the amount of space the Ice Climbers are given on the ground.

And if you want to play examples from your experiences, then I guess I'll lay out my own:

-I can consistently avoid grabs vs. ICs. I've been able to not get grabbed a single time vs. Smoom in a single game because of how terrible their grab range is, and because of how easy it is to avoid them as Sonic.
-Running away with the lead absolutely destroys anything the Ice Climbers can do.

Taking a stock isn't the priority in this match up. Taking the lead is, and all it takes is a single spin hit confirm to give Sonic that lead, separation of ICs, potential gimp of Nana, and the space to pressure the lone Popo. You're severely underestimating how easy it is for Sonic to hit-and-run from Ice Climbers.

The stage list as it is right now only makes it easier for us to avoid your character, so stages typically give Sonic that movement advantage.
History has taught us that at the higher levels of play, top level ICs have lost to top level Sonics. Lain vs. X is probably the most prominent example of this. Oh, and food for thought: X's strategy is absolutely horrid vs. the character, and it still managed to work because of Sonic's ability to mix up his options in a way that makes it impossible for ICs to land that much wanted grab without landing a hard read.

All of the things you mentioned in the last sentence of your claim work the same for Sonic. Consider how hard it is to hit Sonic without getting punished, powershielded, misspaced (especially so for Sonic, since he disrupts space with a simple dash), sideB'd, and outright camped out is. :applejack:
 

DeLux

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#13
Espy, if you're getting around the walls so easily, the IC you are playing doesn't know how to wall a sonic.
You put an IB on the ground with one and wait with the other for the launching spin dash shenanigan or if they go over the IB with any other spinning things the climber is ready to cover with a pivot grab.

If they are using blizzard wall or are just throwing hitboxes out, they are bad at desync walling :\


I used to be super bad at the matchup. But after sitting down and learning it due to getting timed out in game 3 in a local tourney, I've pretty solidly beat every sonic I've played using intelligent walling.

However, I also see the potential in the whole time-out aura, so that alone makes it +1 instead of +2 ICs in my mind.
 

Espy Rose

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#14
Which Sonics have you even played, DeLux? Because I haven't heard a thing about it from any of the Sonics that are regarded as "the better half" of the Sonic mains about you.

Also, why would a Sonic commit to a spindash during an IB when there's so many other viable options? You're only covering a single action (that can be cancelled out of) in that scenario.
If you're beating every Sonic with "intelligent walling", then I'm thinking that those Sonics are just bad at getting over the walls. It's actually pretty simple with the spinshots, sideb's, feints, and simple dashes at the Sonic's disposal.
:applejack:
 

Sin242

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#15
Sonic can't really attack an ice climbers at all if properly desynched, one will always be available to upair the spindash above, or just upsmash it, while they can send projectiles after sonic, forcing him to approach or at least limit stage control
 

DeLux

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#16
My sonic experience off the top of my head is Trent, Goggles, and Excel. I played X having never played a sonic matchup before in my life like 8 months ago, and we split the two friendlies we had.

Who are the better half of sonics that I should expect to lay the smack down on me?

But that's besides the point. What new metagame tools have sonics gotten since the last matchup chart to merit an even matchup when the status quo was +1 ICs?

I know for a fact the IC metagame has definitely changed in the last six months. Can the same be said for sonic?
 

Espy Rose

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#17
The match up's always felt like it was even to me. I just agreed to +1 because I knew it'd be impossible last time to convince.

Looking kinda impossible this time too.

Sonic's meta is transforming into a hybrid of X and Masha's playstyles cranked up to 11. That is, timing out characters to optimize the chance of winning the game. The only issue is that many Sonics don't like this method because of how distasteful it is.

Either way though, the fact that this style, which is terrible vs. Ice Climbers, still goes even with players like you, who has "intelligent walling" and solidly beats Sonic somehow, speaks volumes of Sonic's aptitude at the match up.

If spin-to-win to the measures of X/Masha work on Ice Climbers, the strategy considered the worst method to play against them with, is doing 50:50 vs. you, then that's telling me that you really don't understand Sonic's optimal methods of play in this particular match up. :applejack:

Hylian and Smoom were the first ICs I ever played in tournament. I had no experience whatsoever with IC's walls or tricks that these two players can employ prior to meeting them, and still managed to either go 1:1 (EVEN), or even beat them in tournament because I understand the optimal style of play that's required.

Whatever though. You guys have status quo. Just average out the votes and go from there.
 

DeLux

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#18
I just said "before I had ever played the sonic matchup". I just sat and tried to pivot grab everything

So all that does is show that at the low levels where both have no idea wtf they are doing, it's even.

Since I've "learned" the matchup, against the other thrree I mentioned, I've consistently 2/3 stocked them (especially Trent). But it could also be that they are bad at the matchup. I'll be honest, I have no idea what you guys are doing half the time on your end. But for the most part I've been able to wall out every shenanigan thrown my way.

Hylian is a bad example because he lost to Goggles (who every other IC (including myself) beat while at Pound). I don't know Smoom's record against Sonic's.

We could play this whole "X person beats Y person" for a while. It probably won't get us anywhere.


But the IC metagame has definitely gotten faster (grab setups in half the time, expanded use of IPG) and more streamlined (tripless, unmashable CGs, grabsetups buffered out of other options) since the last chart, so it's definitely harder for you to get in before a wall gets setup for sure. At the very least, I'd contend ICs would be BETTER at the matchup than they were before with new tools. I definitely don't see them being worse.

So it just then becomes a matter of weighing how well you guys can break down the wall without risking getting grabbed. We're kind of split in that matter I guess :\
 

Hylian

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#19
I just said "before I had ever played the sonic matchup". I just sat and tried to pivot grab everything

So all that does is show that at the low levels where both have no idea wtf they are doing, it's even.

Since I've "learned" the matchup, against the other thrree I mentioned, I've consistently 2/3 stocked them (especially Trent). But it could also be that they are bad at the matchup. I'll be honest, I have no idea what you guys are doing half the time on your end. But for the most part I've been able to wall out every shenanigan thrown my way.

Hylian is a bad example because he lost to Goggles (who every other IC (including myself) beat while at Pound). I don't know Smoom's record against Sonic's.

We could play this whole "X person beats Y person" for a while. It probably won't get us anywhere.


But the IC metagame has definitely gotten faster (grab setups in half the time, expanded use of IPG) and more streamlined (tripless, unmashable CGs, grabsetups buffered out of other options) since the last chart, so it's definitely harder for you to get in before a wall gets setup for sure. At the very least, I'd contend ICs would be BETTER at the matchup than they were before with new tools. I definitely don't see them being worse.

So it just then becomes a matter of weighing how well you guys can break down the wall without risking getting grabbed. We're kind of split in that matter I guess :\
How am I a bad example because I lost to goggles? I lost because I dropped 17 grabs in one game. I've beaten espy more than any other ice climber, and espy is the best sonic. I 3 stock trent, he's not even close to the level of Espy/X. Kid goggles isn't close to their level either. The match-up is very even, walling sonic doesn't really work at all he's too fast and you can't react to his mid range approaches.
 

Espy Rose

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#20
Overall, Sonic panel had 3 Sonics vote on 0, 2 vote for -2, and 1 vote for -1.
Your end has 2 saying +1 at the least, one abstaining, 1 saying even, 1 saying +3, and the other 3 saying -1.

4 votes for a 0.
6 votes +1 IC
2 votes for +2 IC
1 vote for +3 IC

You guys just wanna keep it at +1 for now then? There's simply not enough votes either way to really sway the decision in either direction beyond that. :applejack:
 

DeLux

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#22
Jordan, you get so offended so quickly when people bring up losses lol
I already know you're good. You already know I know you're good.

I was bringing that up to point out the whole "who beat who" doesn't really matter.


I'd also point out that though that while you might not have changed since the last chart, the metagame for ICs HAS. If you said that we didn't have faster and more streamlined options to work from since before the matchup was at +1, you'd be mistaken. Espy even admitted that the general sonic game is trending towards the worst method to counter ICs. But if we consider the matchup in terms of inherent character abilities and options at their best, our side has definitely improved imo. It isn't enough in my mind to make it +2 from the +1, but it's definitely enough to guard against us calling it even.

I agree with +1
 
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