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Sonic pop quiz/follow-up discussion! #2: D-throw at 25-40% [2/12] Dthrowsuxlol
- Thread starter Tenki
- Start date
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
i contribute everytime, what are youtalking about
Greenstreet
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2008
- Messages
- 2,965
I will. Seems I am back for a while as it is mate.
Kinzer
Mammy
I'm game. Let's see what you got professor!
REVIEW! kind of.
Situation 2.
You grab your opponent (midweight) at 25-40% at the center of the stage (flat surface) and perform a D-throw:
Find the best answer to your opponent doing...
a) No-input (bad DI/stuck in short hitstun/doesn't tech the floor)
- Spindash/Spincharge (Terios, ShadowLink84, Rickerdy-doo-da-day) - [10-21% (up to 28% if SDJ hits)] Definitely one of the most damaging followups we have. Weaknesses: delayed getup, getup attack, forward roll after you start moving.
- Run up+attempt jab lock (K.I.D) - [0-3+%] It would be nice if only opponents didn't get up lol. D-throw at these %'s don't lend enough time for Sonic to chase correctly and perform a jab, unless they DI towards you.
- Run up+ shield (grab in case of getup attack) > chase-regrab (ShadowLink84) - [0%+grab] Of course, the control freak's choice =), chasing and grabbing for the win. The only way you can miss this is if...well, you miss.
- Run and screechstop out of range, regrab (ROOOOY!) - [0%+grab] This one's interesting, because it relies on 'manual' defense instead of shielding. The only problem might be if they roll backwards - some characters have a roll that, taking human reaction time into account, may be difficult to punish.
- Dash attack (Kinzer) [4-6%]+light pop - This one's cool. Possible counters to it: getup attack.
b) DI upwards (correct DI for D-throw).
- Chase+ F-air (Terios, Rickerdy-doo-da-day, ROOOOY!) - [3-14%] Watch out for airdodges and aggressive aerials, otherwise, decent return.
- Run up+shield possible aerial > grab (K.I.D) - [0%+grab] Another one for the control freaks ^^; Powershielding is king, but if you don't powershield, watch out for retreating aerials, since shield stun+ retreating aerial = hard to grab before they get out of landing lag.
- Spin charge (Kinzer) - [0-21% (-28%)] again, the most damaging standalone option. Falling aerials might get you though. Also counterable via double jump.
- DAC (ShadowLink84) - [0-14%] Pops the opponent upwards, also may catch someone at the end of an early/reflexive airdodge. Possible counters: forward floating aerial (hits you in startup lag), double jump. U-smash is unsafe upon miss.
- Chase+ U-air (ShadowLink84) - [3-9%] Low-lag aerial, still provides some freedom in case you miss, and its disjointed hitboxes can outprioritize + launch people upwards.
c) DI upwards+airdodge
- Hyphen Smash (Terios, Rickerdy-doo-da-day, ROOOOY!) - [0-15%] It IS possible to miss a Hyphen Smash or mistime it so they can airdodge through it, but that issue can be gotten around with a slight charge.
- Run past+B-air (Rickerdy-doo-da-day) - [9-13%] Pretty cool, low (ending lag) aerial.
- Run past+Pivot B-throw (K.I.D) - [8%+grab] Amazing placement. Feel free to throw in a pummel before throwing, but the distance from a D-throw > B-throw should send them off-stage, if not, near it.
- Spin charge (Kinzer) - [0-21% (-28%)] again, the most damaging standalone option. Just don't overestimate its speed and end up getting shielded as your opponent lands. Lightweights may be able to get out of this.
- Chase + (FF?) B-air (airdodge bait)> F-air after opponent's airdodge (ShadowLink84) - [0-13(first part); 3-14% (second part)] It's almost like cheating. But yes, B-airs can be used to either punish or bait an airdodge, and F-airs can be used out of landing to punish the airdodge and/or landing.
d) Any DI/teching the floor
- Chase+ Regrab (Terios, K.I.D, ROOOOY!, ShadowLink84) [0%+grab] Control freak's favorite ;]
- Spindash/Spincharge (Rickerdy-doo-da-day) [10-21%(-28%)] Usual.
- Spinshot over + B-air (Rickerdy-doo-da-day) [0-13%] To do spinshot, you have to use about .5-1 second to charge, then you have to jump and start B-air. There's a good chance your opponent can already shield by the time you get to him if he techs the landing, but thankfully, it's a bit safe on shield if you land behind your opponent.
- Hyphen smash (Kinzer) [0-14%] This can fail if your opponent rolls towards you.
Bonus 1:
Find the most 'rewarding' answer to your opponent not teching the floor [grounded opponent who can roll left, right, stand up, or do get-up attack]. 'Reward' can be defined by control (momentum/placement) and/or damage. Keep in mind that your opponent can either get up immediately or delay getting up.
- Run up to opponent+ shield (grab in case of getup attack): drop shield and follow movement with grab, F-air, or dash attack as your reflex allows. (K.I.D) - [0%+grab] Control control control.
- Screech stop out of range > regrab (ROOOOY!) - [0%+grab] Controollll- Watch out for the back rolls ;/
- Dash attack> Aerial juggle (FUNair) > N-air > ASC > chase with spinshot (Kinzer) [wtf?] - This was pretty cool. It's too bad that after the aerial juggles, double jump+ character specials can 'reset' it D:
Otherwise, 4-6%+ possible U-air x2 (17%) > N-air interception (6-11% > ASC (0-18%)> etc. It would have been nice, if it weren't so escapable ;[
- ASC (short range) to punish get up attack or forward roll, preferrably done near the edge (djbrowny) - [10-32%] It's really situational because, as he stated, it's only really good near the edges, otherwise a back roll can save them. It may be possible to counter this with normal getup+shield.
Bonus 2:
Find the best answer to your opponent doing upwards DI to D-throw and escaping hitstun (can attack/double jump/airdodge)
- Chase + shield grab (K.I.D) - [0%+grab] Control. Counterable via double jump.
- Shield (case of aerial) >U-tilt (ROOOOY!) - [3-14%] Well, that's an interesting one. May be possible for some people to hit Sonic out of U-tilt (Marth) while retreating out of its range. Also counterable by double jumping, or not attacking until landing.
- vs Aggressive opponents: attack their 'counter' aerial.
vs Defensive opponents: Immediate airdodge is met with a delayed F-air. Delayed airdodge is met with SH U-air>U-tilt/F-tilt.
Priority on regrabbing. (ShadowLink84) - [3+%] This was a pretty good answer, and U-air>U-tilt makes for good pressure, but again, escapable via double jump. Arguably, this base is covered by the suggestion of regrabbing the landing, but this can be difficult depending on character (multi-jump characters/ characters with good aerial acceleration).
Honorable mention
I'm lazier this time. Comments on the comments would be nice.
Situation 2.
You grab your opponent (midweight) at 25-40% at the center of the stage (flat surface) and perform a D-throw:
Find the best answer to your opponent doing...
a) No-input (bad DI/stuck in short hitstun/doesn't tech the floor)
- Spindash/Spincharge (Terios, ShadowLink84, Rickerdy-doo-da-day) - [10-21% (up to 28% if SDJ hits)] Definitely one of the most damaging followups we have. Weaknesses: delayed getup, getup attack, forward roll after you start moving.
- Run up+attempt jab lock (K.I.D) - [0-3+%] It would be nice if only opponents didn't get up lol. D-throw at these %'s don't lend enough time for Sonic to chase correctly and perform a jab, unless they DI towards you.
- Run up+ shield (grab in case of getup attack) > chase-regrab (ShadowLink84) - [0%+grab] Of course, the control freak's choice =), chasing and grabbing for the win. The only way you can miss this is if...well, you miss.
- Run and screechstop out of range, regrab (ROOOOY!) - [0%+grab] This one's interesting, because it relies on 'manual' defense instead of shielding. The only problem might be if they roll backwards - some characters have a roll that, taking human reaction time into account, may be difficult to punish.
- Dash attack (Kinzer) [4-6%]+light pop - This one's cool. Possible counters to it: getup attack.
b) DI upwards (correct DI for D-throw).
- Chase+ F-air (Terios, Rickerdy-doo-da-day, ROOOOY!) - [3-14%] Watch out for airdodges and aggressive aerials, otherwise, decent return.
- Run up+shield possible aerial > grab (K.I.D) - [0%+grab] Another one for the control freaks ^^; Powershielding is king, but if you don't powershield, watch out for retreating aerials, since shield stun+ retreating aerial = hard to grab before they get out of landing lag.
- Spin charge (Kinzer) - [0-21% (-28%)] again, the most damaging standalone option. Falling aerials might get you though. Also counterable via double jump.
- DAC (ShadowLink84) - [0-14%] Pops the opponent upwards, also may catch someone at the end of an early/reflexive airdodge. Possible counters: forward floating aerial (hits you in startup lag), double jump. U-smash is unsafe upon miss.
- Chase+ U-air (ShadowLink84) - [3-9%] Low-lag aerial, still provides some freedom in case you miss, and its disjointed hitboxes can outprioritize + launch people upwards.
c) DI upwards+airdodge
- Hyphen Smash (Terios, Rickerdy-doo-da-day, ROOOOY!) - [0-15%] It IS possible to miss a Hyphen Smash or mistime it so they can airdodge through it, but that issue can be gotten around with a slight charge.
- Run past+B-air (Rickerdy-doo-da-day) - [9-13%] Pretty cool, low (ending lag) aerial.
- Run past+Pivot B-throw (K.I.D) - [8%+grab] Amazing placement. Feel free to throw in a pummel before throwing, but the distance from a D-throw > B-throw should send them off-stage, if not, near it.
- Spin charge (Kinzer) - [0-21% (-28%)] again, the most damaging standalone option. Just don't overestimate its speed and end up getting shielded as your opponent lands. Lightweights may be able to get out of this.
- Chase + (FF?) B-air (airdodge bait)> F-air after opponent's airdodge (ShadowLink84) - [0-13(first part); 3-14% (second part)] It's almost like cheating. But yes, B-airs can be used to either punish or bait an airdodge, and F-airs can be used out of landing to punish the airdodge and/or landing.
d) Any DI/teching the floor
- Chase+ Regrab (Terios, K.I.D, ROOOOY!, ShadowLink84) [0%+grab] Control freak's favorite ;]
- Spindash/Spincharge (Rickerdy-doo-da-day) [10-21%(-28%)] Usual.
- Spinshot over + B-air (Rickerdy-doo-da-day) [0-13%] To do spinshot, you have to use about .5-1 second to charge, then you have to jump and start B-air. There's a good chance your opponent can already shield by the time you get to him if he techs the landing, but thankfully, it's a bit safe on shield if you land behind your opponent.
- Hyphen smash (Kinzer) [0-14%] This can fail if your opponent rolls towards you.
Bonus 1:
Find the most 'rewarding' answer to your opponent not teching the floor [grounded opponent who can roll left, right, stand up, or do get-up attack]. 'Reward' can be defined by control (momentum/placement) and/or damage. Keep in mind that your opponent can either get up immediately or delay getting up.
- Run up to opponent+ shield (grab in case of getup attack): drop shield and follow movement with grab, F-air, or dash attack as your reflex allows. (K.I.D) - [0%+grab] Control control control.
- Screech stop out of range > regrab (ROOOOY!) - [0%+grab] Controollll- Watch out for the back rolls ;/
- Dash attack> Aerial juggle (FUNair) > N-air > ASC > chase with spinshot (Kinzer) [wtf?] - This was pretty cool. It's too bad that after the aerial juggles, double jump+ character specials can 'reset' it D:
Otherwise, 4-6%+ possible U-air x2 (17%) > N-air interception (6-11% > ASC (0-18%)> etc. It would have been nice, if it weren't so escapable ;[
- ASC (short range) to punish get up attack or forward roll, preferrably done near the edge (djbrowny) - [10-32%] It's really situational because, as he stated, it's only really good near the edges, otherwise a back roll can save them. It may be possible to counter this with normal getup+shield.
Bonus 2:
Find the best answer to your opponent doing upwards DI to D-throw and escaping hitstun (can attack/double jump/airdodge)
- Chase + shield grab (K.I.D) - [0%+grab] Control. Counterable via double jump.
- Shield (case of aerial) >U-tilt (ROOOOY!) - [3-14%] Well, that's an interesting one. May be possible for some people to hit Sonic out of U-tilt (Marth) while retreating out of its range. Also counterable by double jumping, or not attacking until landing.
- vs Aggressive opponents: attack their 'counter' aerial.
vs Defensive opponents: Immediate airdodge is met with a delayed F-air. Delayed airdodge is met with SH U-air>U-tilt/F-tilt.
Priority on regrabbing. (ShadowLink84) - [3+%] This was a pretty good answer, and U-air>U-tilt makes for good pressure, but again, escapable via double jump. Arguably, this base is covered by the suggestion of regrabbing the landing, but this can be difficult depending on character (multi-jump characters/ characters with good aerial acceleration).
Honorable mention
Congratulations to Kinzer for recognizing the point of this thread!
Congratulations to ShadowLink for realizing why I have a % limit on the questions!
Congratulations for djbrowny for learning the correct DI out of D-throw!
I'm lazier this time. Comments on the comments would be nice.
Kinzer
Mammy
Lol I'm smart.
Edit: Tenki is there any way to improvise? If some things won't flow as well, is it possible to replace it with any other stuff?
Edit: Tenki is there any way to improvise? If some things won't flow as well, is it possible to replace it with any other stuff?
Kinzer
Mammy
Yeah I kind of messed up, I don't know why my brain thought...except "Okay after you have used both your jumps if the opponent gets behind me after the Nair I could Reverse Side-B into a Spinshot."
What I meant to say was since I'm too lazy to manually turn myself around I'll just use the Side-B in the same case I would start charging my ASC if they ended up in front of me, although probably charging the Reverse-SD will take up too much time and by this time the opponent will have probably recouped. Anyway after the Nair I'm pretty sure that the opponent will have been sent quite a ways, and not too much could be followed up imediately after.
I tried, I suppose that counts for something.
What I meant to say was since I'm too lazy to manually turn myself around I'll just use the Side-B in the same case I would start charging my ASC if they ended up in front of me, although probably charging the Reverse-SD will take up too much time and by this time the opponent will have probably recouped. Anyway after the Nair I'm pretty sure that the opponent will have been sent quite a ways, and not too much could be followed up imediately after.
I tried, I suppose that counts for something.
Eh, that's fine. It's the first few moves that really count for anything anyway.
I know it's a pain in the butt to read the comments on the answers, but any dissension or corrections on what I've said are really welcome cause I really wanna get this question out of the way XD
I know it's a pain in the butt to read the comments on the answers, but any dissension or corrections on what I've said are really welcome cause I really wanna get this question out of the way XD
Kinzer
Mammy
I'm just johning Tenki, I'm pretty sure you have a green flag for going into the next situation.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
i just thought of something hott, that only vaguely relates to this situation,
80-100% down throw a floaty opponent toward the middle of the stage, run after them, they DI up, you run directly under them and spring...
the anthinus combo
80-100% down throw a floaty opponent toward the middle of the stage, run after them, they DI up, you run directly under them and spring...
the anthinus combo
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
thats kinda the idea here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4GGuRDQShw
at 1:11 in this vid, replace the DA with d throw
PS this is sexy and this guy (i asume is from AiB) shouts you out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAtmMs_tfno
SonicX580
Smash Lord
Heh thanks maybe I could solve a quiz and is there a new one? or those the old still counts?
infomon
Smash Scientist
I agree with Camalange. Uncle Tenki, make us another one!!
SonicX580
Smash Lord
I wonder what the next one is?
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Lol this is old-school...
SonicX580
Smash Lord
This place is quiet without the others...
infomon
Smash Scientist
No; SonicX580, you just post a lot... even by Sonicboards standards.... >.>
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
requoted
look at 2nd vid, 1:21 is SUPER disjointed
p.s. that entire video is for roooy
infomon
Smash Scientist
lol, that looks more like Shiek has a disjointed hurtbox 
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Wow, my Sonic plays great when I don't always use, just randomly throw him in. I'm like OMFG I PWN
SonicX580
Smash Lord
No not really I think my posts are little and with that said is Tenki going to give us the quiz or are we going to wait?
infomon
Smash Scientist
............
we are going to wait until Tenki comes online and posts, lol.
we are going to wait until Tenki comes online and posts, lol.
SonicX580
Smash Lord
Okay fine by me.
ROOOOY!
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2006
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- 3,118
- Location
- Lincolnshire, England.
- NNID
- Gengite
- 3DS FC
- 5456-0280-5804
Utter garbage. The guy playing's alright when he's not crapping around with Homing Attack, but yeah. All it really showed was how the opponents needed to lrn2ayrdodj, Homing Attack is garbage, and ridiculously punishable, and always will be.
I knew it was fail from the first few seconds.
Shadow the Hedgehog?
Or Boxob was right and B-air is disjointed.lol, that looks more like Shiek has a disjointed hurtbox
Only uber disjointed, lol.
Or a mix of both.
Kinzer
Mammy
Bump-Da-Whump.
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=615588#p615588
Tenki is finally giving us some homework again. :3
Post FFS, stealing ideas from other people could be beneficial to our game!
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=615588#p615588
Tenki is finally giving us some homework again. :3
Post FFS, stealing ideas from other people could be beneficial to our game!
laol
that one was a more dumbed-down version.
Of course, it was sort of inspired by a video of a certain someone (<3 anyway) spindashing into bananas.
I don't think you guys need that question though.
need a better one for this group.
also, I'm considering killing the D-throw discussion, lmao
that one was a more dumbed-down version.
Of course, it was sort of inspired by a video of a certain someone (<3 anyway) spindashing into bananas.
I don't think you guys need that question though.
need a better one for this group.
also, I'm considering killing the D-throw discussion, lmao
Kinzer
Mammy
I'm still curious to see what some other people do, and to help those who don't get the right answer.
...I hope to dear God none of us STILL use a direct SDR as an approach method plus attack.
you could also consider like what projectile is being thrown at us, it is vital that we catch a stitch-faced turnip of Peach happens to pull one out from her *beeeeeeeep*.
Snake's grenade can depend wather you want to catch it or not depending on how long it is before they detonate.
Some people might like to take the skies to not have to worry about Diddy's nanerz, or try to catch them and turn them against him.
...What if Peach pulls out a bomb... are you people willing to take the risk?
How about R.O.B. who can angle his LAZAH!? Do you want to try to read his pattern so you can go ahead with a direct SDR, or something else?
Can we do anything about Falco's who are just SHL-happy? One's that like to stay grounded when they fire their LAZAHS!?
The only thing that is dumbed down is peoples' imaginations, thanks for bringing this back to life my good man.
...I hope to dear God none of us STILL use a direct SDR as an approach method plus attack.
you could also consider like what projectile is being thrown at us, it is vital that we catch a stitch-faced turnip of Peach happens to pull one out from her *beeeeeeeep*.
Snake's grenade can depend wather you want to catch it or not depending on how long it is before they detonate.
Some people might like to take the skies to not have to worry about Diddy's nanerz, or try to catch them and turn them against him.
...What if Peach pulls out a bomb... are you people willing to take the risk?
How about R.O.B. who can angle his LAZAH!? Do you want to try to read his pattern so you can go ahead with a direct SDR, or something else?
Can we do anything about Falco's who are just SHL-happy? One's that like to stay grounded when they fire their LAZAHS!?
The only thing that is dumbed down is peoples' imaginations, thanks for bringing this back to life my good man.
Well, since I haven't considered any situations recently, we can extend discussion of that situation here.
ROB+lazor: maybe ISDJ might work.
Falco and SHL: Run when he's rising, shield when he's falling. Seriously ;d
Some Falcos like to do this weird SHL>side-B shiz. If you're close enough, you can probably shield the falling laser and f-air his startup lag. If Falco is doing grounded lasers, shieldwalk or jump. Spinshot if you feel inclined, but beware of Falco SHbair to counter an overhead spinshot (that is, if he stops firing as soon as you start to charge a spin special)
Snake : If he just pulled out the grenade, I'd go for a grab, honestly lol. They're like "ahaha grenade counter laulzulzz". But of course better Snakes will catch on and grab you first >_>
ROB+lazor: maybe ISDJ might work.
Falco and SHL: Run when he's rising, shield when he's falling. Seriously ;d
Some Falcos like to do this weird SHL>side-B shiz. If you're close enough, you can probably shield the falling laser and f-air his startup lag. If Falco is doing grounded lasers, shieldwalk or jump. Spinshot if you feel inclined, but beware of Falco SHbair to counter an overhead spinshot (that is, if he stops firing as soon as you start to charge a spin special)
infomon
Smash Scientist
........ I went to the link, immediately replied there, then came back to continue reading the posts here.
...
...
I'm too good at this game
o hai I just performed the mental equivalent of tripping into a bowser Fsmash. Bwahahaha.
although definitely punishable, so I just do SDR>SDJ>aerial usually). If I'm not on YI:B, even I know that spindash-approaching a ROB is terrible idea. Gyro, Laser, probably both SDJ is fine though, and depending on the situation, SDJ may be baiting ROB's projectiles to temporarily get rid of them ("look at me! I'm in a spindash! punish me nao!" bwahaha)
I've noticed Dthrow tends to do this; or is that because he's dropping the grenade first? What are the rules about grenades exploding??
(embarassed to suddenly find myself a n00b at priority, lolz)
...
...
...
I'm too good at this game
o hai I just performed the mental equivalent of tripping into a bowser Fsmash. Bwahahaha.
I want to be on Yoshi's Island: Brawl so I can iSDR through his lazah and punish with a SLOW (since I've noticed it demoralizes ppl
although definitely punishable, so I just do SDR>SDJ>aerial usually). If I'm not on YI:B, even I know that spindash-approaching a ROB is terrible idea. Gyro, Laser, probably both SDJ is fine though, and depending on the situation, SDJ may be baiting ROB's projectiles to temporarily get rid of them ("look at me! I'm in a spindash! punish me nao!" bwahaha)Gotta watch out that our throw itself doesn't detonate the grenade, though
I've noticed Dthrow tends to do this; or is that because he's dropping the grenade first? What are the rules about grenades exploding??(embarassed to suddenly find myself a n00b at priority, lolz)
Kinzer
Mammy
Infzy, I'm beginning to worry about you and that meme, wather it's really true or not that you might just be the worst Sonic ever...
:/
:/
infomon
Smash Scientist
lrn2spindashapproach
o wait....
o wait....
If he's in the "special grenade mode" (his pose is different), any interruptions will force him to drop it, which is how he usually grenade counters, since he interrupts it with shield. U/B/F-throw is good here. Just be wary that he can spotdodge, so dashgrabbing/running shieldgrab is a punishment for Snakes who like to grenade counter.Gotta watch out that our throw itself doesn't detonate the grenade, though
If he's in "lol i has an itams" mode, your throw may or may not force him to drop it. B/F/D-throw are good because you can time it to explode as you throw him, or you can use it to force an airdodge and punish that.
Grenades explode when you hit them, and if he drops the grenade and you D-throw on it, your D-throw's hits will detonate it.