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Sonic pop quiz/follow-up discussion! #2: D-throw at 25-40% [2/12] Dthrowsuxlol

Tenki

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POP QUIZ!
Questions will be released every few days, whenever I feel like changing it.
You will not receive a grade for this.

What I and/or community decides as the best answers, however, will get a sticker of some sort and the reply paraphrased or quoted in the first post.

There is nothing to gain from this quiz except answers. What these answers are, and what they mean will depend on what you see in them.

And maybe a sticker, if you're good enough. :054:

Good luck.

DIRECTIONS FOR EASIER READING:
1) Quote this post
2) Delete everything above/below the question, including the quote tags.
3) Write your answers between the color coding.

Situation 2.
You grab your opponent (midweight) at 25-40% at the center of the stage (flat surface) and perform a D-throw:

Find the best answer to your opponent doing...
a) No-input (bad DI/stuck in short hitstun/doesn't tech the floor)
b) DI upwards (correct DI for D-throw).
c) DI upwards+airdodge
d) Any DI/teching the floor



Bonus 1:
Find the most 'rewarding' answer to your opponent not teching the floor [grounded opponent who can roll left, right, stand up, or do get-up attack]. 'Reward' can be defined by control (momentum/placement) and/or damage. Keep in mind that your opponent can either get up immediately or delay getting up.


Bonus 2:
Find the best answer to your opponent doing upwards DI to D-throw and escaping hitstun (can attack/double jump/airdodge)
 

Tenki

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Previous Situations!

These are what I believe to have been the best answers to these situations.


Situation 1.
You grab your opponent (midweight) at 0% and perform a U-throw:

Find the best answer to your opponent doing...
a) No-input (bad DI/stuck in short hitstun)
- Re-grab on landing (Umby) - 12% from U-throw, but it leaves you in control. Much freedom here.
- B-air (Tenki) - roughly ~25% damage. Some startup lag that can be airdodged or counterattacked by some characters, little ending and landing lag, leaving you free for a followup. Not good against opponents with hitstun resist.
- U-air (ROOOOY!) - roughly ~18-21%. Fast startup, little ending/landing lag, and pops opponent upwards, leaving you free for a followup. Not good against fast-falling opponents who can get on the ground before you can, since U-air has some noticeable landing lag if you FF too early.


b) DI towards Sonic's back (correct DI for U-throw- may escape hitstun).
- Re-grab on landing (Umby, Tenki) - 12% from U-throw, leaves you in control of the match. Countered by double jumping.
- F-air/B-air (Shadowlink84) - roughly ~20-25%, assuming you run after your opponent first. It can be airdodged, and some characters can hit you out of it. This can miss at times if your opponent can double jump.

c) Airdodge
- Re-grab on landing (Tenki, Umby, djbrowny) - 12% from U-throw. Same as usual.
- SH > Delayed N-air (ROOOOY!, Shadowlink84) - roughly 17-23%. This is a pretty good answer for a correctly-predicted airdodge, regardless of DI. It actually covers all the previous situations pretty well. Little startup and landing lag. The main problem is its commitment time while in the air, which makes you vulnerable if you miss and your opponent counterattacks.

d) Counterattack (D-air, etc)
- Re-grab on landing (Tenki, Umby) - 12% - same as usual. Pshielding counterattacks or running away then grabbing landing lag is not a bad way to start the match.
- U-air (Shadowlink84) - 15-21%. Thank goodness Sonic's U-air has decent priority. Can be problematic only if your opponent is too low for you to tip with the U-air, or if their DI sends them too far sideways for you to catch with U-air's first hit. Watch out for those characters with sweeping disjointed hitboxes ;d


Bonus 1:
Find an answer that answers as many of the above situations as possible at once, and explain how it does so.

- Double-take> Re-grab on landing (Umby) - [12%] This is probably the safest option. Keeps you out of range of counterattacks, can help keep you unpredictable, make the opponent feel stupid for airdodging, etc. Just don't miss the landing and you'll be fine.
- SH B-air FF> Re-grab on landing (Tenki) - [12-25%] B-air takes care of situation A while going for most damage, and shieldgrab camping landing spots takes care of B-D. The only problem here is if the opponent has hitstun resist (Samus.) and hits you before B-air can come out. Or if you miss the grab and/or opponent double jumps.
- SH> (delay)>N-air/(airdodge?) (ROOOOY!) - [12-23%] It's a pretty campy and defensive option, and you'll need pretty good reaction speed if you wanna be able to pull this off well. U-throw>(instant) N-air combos on most characters if they don't airdodge, but it's easier to miss if they DI incorrectly due to its range. If you delay before, N-air, you give your opponent some time to counterattack or double jump, and SH in general can keep you from chasing your opponent's DI since Sonic accelerates slowly in midair. On the up-side, if you miss the N-air and FF out of range of your opponent, it has little landing lag so you can recuperate from the miss.

Bonus 2:
Find the best answer to your opponent double jumping out of the U-throw (assuming that your opponent had enough hitstun resist or you didn't attack ASAP). For better answers, take into account that your opponent can double-jump left, up, or right, and at this point, can even attack you.

- Shieldgrab camp on high priority aerial chars, aerial on more vulnerable chars (ROOOOY!) - [12%-25%] Shieldgrab camping is pretty safe for the most part, as stressed enough with Umby's singular answer-to-all post. Making your followup based on what character you're fighting is important. Not bad `.`; Again, don't do rising aerials while your opponent is falling towards you. It screws up spacing if you're trying to U-air tip, or sets you up for an opponent's attack if he airdodges through you.
- Double-take> Re-grab on landing (Umby) - [12%] Safe, keeps you in control. Don't miss grabs.
- Full hop U-air. (djbrowny) - [17-19%] Can outprioritize most aerials from opponents. However, since your opponent has more time/space, it's airdodgeable. Just don't do a rising U-air while your opponent is falling and airdodging through you or the roles will be reversed.

OVERALL:
- The true nature of this first situation was Bonus 1 and 2. Umby's "re-grab" is the best option for the majority of the DI/countersituations, because it gives you the most control. 12 damage- not quite high enough to change things too much, and if you regrab, you can restart the situation for more damage. However, ROOOOY! stole the glory for Bonus 2 with a more 'dynamic' answer - some characters are more vulnerable to low juggles than others (eg, Ike) and you might be able to build some damage on them with some aerials before going for a regrab.

--------------------------------
 

Tenki

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Hall of Fame and Shame ;]


- - - - - - -Situation 1! - - - - - - - -
:096: Umby - control freak award.
:080: dNES - for cheating.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 

Tenki

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Example entry

Situation 1.
You grab your opponent (midweight) at 0% and perform a U-throw:

Find the best answer to your opponent doing...
a) No-input (bad DI/stuck in short hitstun)
SH> B-air

b) DI towards Sonic's back (correct DI for U-throw- may escape hitstun).
Run + shield-grab camp the landing spot.

c) Airdodge
Shield-grab camp the landing spot and U-throw again.

d) Counterattack (D-air, etc)
Shield-grab camp the landing spot.

Bonus 1:
Find an answer that answers as many of the above situations as possible at once, and explain how it does so.

SH B-air FF > shield-grab camp the landing spot.

Bonus 2:
Find the best answer to your opponent double jumping out of the U-throw (assuming that your opponent had enough hitstun resist or you didn't attack ASAP). For better answers, take into account that your opponent can double-jump left, up, or right, and at this point, can even attack you.

SHFF U-air > Run away to bait an approach or see if they tend to move away from you, then run towards and shield-grab camp the landing spot.

-----------
There's my example answer.

It's still possible to find better answers. Go. Find more answers.
 

Browny

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You grab your opponent (midweight) at 0% and perform a U-throw:[/SIZE][/COLOR]
Find the best answer to your opponent doing...
a) No-input (bad DI/stuck in short hitstun)
usmash
b) DI towards Sonic's back (correct DI for U-throw- may escape hitstun).
pivot utilt
c) Airdodge
wait, follow thier DI and grab them again for moar uthrow
d) Counterattack (D-air, etc)
usmash (invincibility frames are hax)

Bonus 1:
Find an answer that answers as many of the above situations as possible at once, and explain how it does so.

SH nair, follow thier DI into an AAA when you land

Bonus 2:
Find the best answer to your opponent double jumping out of the U-throw (assuming that your opponent had enough hitstun resist or you didn't attack ASAP). For better answers, take into account that your opponent can double-jump left, up, or right, and at this point, can even attack you.

full hop nair. it counts as a combo in training, so it might be inescapable if timed right
 

Tenki

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Bonus 2:
Find the best answer to your opponent double jumping out of the U-throw (assuming that your opponent had enough hitstun resist or you didn't attack ASAP). For better answers, take into account that your opponent can double-jump left, up, or right, and at this point, can even attack you.

SH uair. it counts as a combo in training, so it might be inescapable if timed right
lol you're supposed to assume the opponent actually makes it out and double jumps.
 

Browny

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side taunt?

otherwise uair obviously... man the second hit of uair goes through luigis nair. that thing is broken now

--- i was meant to write nair in the original post btw lol
 

ROOOOY!

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Situation 1.
You grab your opponent (midweight) at 0% and perform a U-throw:

Find the best answer to your opponent doing...
a) No-input (bad DI/stuck in short hitstun)
SH u-air, this is often how I start a match actually.
b) DI towards Sonic's back (correct DI for U-throw- may escape hitstun).
A pivoted tilt?
c) Airdodge
SH, then nair just as you're landing.
d) Counterattack (D-air, etc)
Up smash.

Bonus 1:
Find an answer that answers as many of the above situations as possible at once, and explain how it does so.

SH's are usually necessary unless your opponent is counterattacking or DIing to safety, then follow it up with a well timed nair. If you see an airdodge, wait til it's finishing then attack, the earlier you hit with nair the more damage it does. If he does nothing a nair is easy etc. Nair is good for the job because it's hitbox stays out for quite a while, and so will most likely catch the opponent anyway, whatever they do out of reflex.

Bonus 2:
Find the best answer to your opponent double jumping out of the U-throw (assuming that your opponent had enough hitstun resist or you didn't attack ASAP). For better answers, take into account that your opponent can double-jump left, up, or right, and at this point, can even attack you.

Depends entirely on the character you're facing and your opponent. If it's a Luigi who likes to utilize his air game, chasing him isn't the best option so I'd just camp where I'd anticipate he's going to land.
It also depends where a character's 'blind-spot' is. If it was for example a DK I'd face him head on with a fair. If it was a ROB I'd juggle him with an uair etc.
 

ShadowLink84

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Situation 1.
You grab your opponent (midweight) at 0% and perform a U-throw:

Find the best answer to your opponent doing...
a) No-input (bad DI/stuck in short hitstun)
Utilt is a good option here as is a Usmash. Both are quick enough to take advantage.

b) DI towards Sonic's back (correct DI for U-throw- may escape hitstun).
Hmm you acn reverse utilt but that has a good chance of missing.
You can go for a Fair/Bair.

Neither of which are guaranteed.
Usmash is good since it outlasts airdodges.
c) Airdodge
A usmash is the best bet. Even if you dont land all the hits you'll still pop the opponent up into the air.
Alternative an SH Nair is good too.
d) Counterattack (D-air, etc)
usmash/Uair/Utilt


Bonus 1:
Find an answer that answers as many of the above situations as possible at once, and explain how it does so.
in all cases the Usmash/utilt seem to perform best.
The Usmash has an advantage in priority and range (hyphen smash) but the Utilt comes out faster.
however the Usmash beats it out because it outlasts airdodges and even if it doesn't land all the hits it will break a counter attack/airdodge and can keep up with DI more easily.
Bonus 2:
Find the best answer to your opponent double jumping out of the U-throw (assuming that your opponent had enough hitstun resist or you didn't attack ASAP). For better answers, take into account that your opponent can double-jump left, up, or right, and at this point, can even attack you.
[/quote]
Chase.
Depending on what character they are you can chase them down immediately and harass with a Uair or you may have to wait on the ground and then act as they land.

if you are facing TL, Link or G&W you can bait a Dair then spotdodge and punish accordingly.
With other characters like Bowsr/Donkey Kong you can chase them and harass with the Uair.
If it is a character like Wario you'll have to use SH uairs so that you can resume running along the ground in case they change direction.
Landcamping them is effective since not many characters can counter the Usmash at SH level and due to sonic's speed this shouldn't be a problem keeping up with them.

Ah well I fail as a Sonic main anyway
 

darkNES386

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I have to agree with Tenki... at 0 percent mid-heavy fighters are perfect for grabbing again. Really really works well against characters like Snake.

As for the bonus question: I like to foxtrot/run around, but sometimes a little short hop with no intention but to land is also a nice touch. Usually though this is at higher percents. At low percents I'm deffinately looking for another grab, maybe this time a down throw since they're a middleweight (a uthrow again if they're really heavy). If I down throw I'm now in tech-chase mode... and the fun continues =)
 

Tenki

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ANSWERS. . . not really.

If you didn't specify which ones you were answering, I assume that you use that answer for all situations. People with similar responses, except for bonus, are grouped together.


Situation 1.
You grab your opponent (midweight) at 0% and perform a U-throw:

Find the best answer to your opponent doing...
a) No-input (bad DI/stuck in short hitstun)
- B-air (Tenki) - roughly ~25% damage. Some startup lag that can be airdodged or counterattacked by some characters, little ending and landing lag, leaving you free for a followup.
- U-smash (djbrowny, Shadowlink84) - roughly ~20-25% (can be charged, but the initial hits miss). Some startup lag that can be airdodged, but can usually catch airdodges. Pops people upward. Ending lag can be dangerous if DI is predicted incorrectly.
- U-tilt (CaliburChamp, Shadowlink84) - roughly ~17-19% (initial hits miss if you're going for true combo). Fast startup and decent vertical range/priority. There is some commitment time to this attack, so you are still a little vulnerable if DI is predicted wrong.
- Re-grab on landing (Umby) - 12% from U-throw, but it leaves you in control. Much freedom here.
- U-air (ROOOOY!) - roughly ~18-21%. Fast startup, little ending/landing lag, and pops opponent upwards, leaving you free for a followup.
- cheat (darkNES386) - agreeing is not a move. ;p


b) DI towards Sonic's back (correct DI for U-throw- may escape hitstun).
- Pivot U-tilt (djbrowny, CaliburChamp ..kinda, ROOOOY! ..kinda, Shadowlink84) - roughly ~ 17%-19% since the first hit tends to miss or knock people out. However, most characters will be sent out of range of the U-tilt. Can be avoided if your opponent double jumps while free from hitstun.
- Re-grab on landing (Umby, Tenki) - 12% from U-throw, leaves you in control of the match. Countered by double jumping.
- F-air/B-air (Shadowlink84) - roughly ~20-25%, assuming you run after your opponent first. It can be airdodged, and some characters can hit you out of it. This can miss at times if your opponent can double jump.
- U-smash (Shadowlink84) - roughly ~18-22%. Even though U-smash has invincibility frames at some point, assuming that you do this asap out of a run, some characters, like Marth, can hit you in startup lag as you're sliding while starting the smash. Because of startup lag, your opponent can double jump and avoid it.
- cheat (darkNES386)

c) Airdodge
- Re-grab on landing (Tenki, Umby, djbrowny) - 12% from U-throw. Same as usual.
- U-tilt (CaliburChamp) - roughly 12-15% (either complete miss or last hit hits). Pops opponent upwards, but leaves you a little vulnerable.
- SH > Delayed N-air (ROOOOY!, Shadowlink84) - roughly 17-23%. This is a pretty good answer for a correctly-predicted airdodge, regardless of DI. It actually covers all the previous situations pretty well. Little startup and landing lag, but the only problem is its commitment time while in the air, which makes you vulnerable if you miss and your opponent counterattacks.
- U-smash (Shadowlink84) - 16-20% - pops opponent upwards. Again, this is a pretty good way to punish airdodges. Only problematic if you miss.
- cheat (darkNES386)

d) Counterattack (D-air, etc)
- U-smash (djbrowny, ROOOOY!, Shadowlink84) - 16-20%- taking advantage of invincibility frames when possible is good. Getting hit out of it as you're sliding (eg, running U-smash) if your opponent DI's away, or
- Re-grab on landing (Tenki, Umby) - 12% - same as usual. Pshielding counterattacks or running away then grabbing landing lag is not a bad way to start the match.
- U-tilt (CaliburChamp, Shadowlink84) - 15-19%. If the opponent doesn't DI, then U-tilt can combo from a U-throw and outrange some characters' aerials.
- U-air (Shadowlink84) - 15-21%. Thank goodness Sonic's U-air has decent priority. Can be problematic only if your opponent is too low for you to tip with the U-air, or if their DI sends them too far sideways for you to catch with U-air's first hit.
- cheat (darkNES386)

Bonus 1:
Find an answer that answers as many of the above situations as possible at once, and explain how it does so.

- SH B-air FF> Re-grab on landing (Tenki) - [12-25%] B-air takes care of situation A while going for most damage, and shieldgrab camping landing spots takes care of B-D. The only problem here is if the opponent has hitstun resist (Samus.) and hits you before B-air can come out. Or if you miss the grab and/or opponent double jumps.
- Double-take> Re-grab on landing (Umby) - [12%] This is probably the safest option. Keeps you out of range of counterattacks, can help keep you unpredictable, make the opponent feel stupid for airdodging, etc. Just don't miss the landing and you'll be fine.
- SH U-air, follow thier DI into an AAA when you land (djbrowny) - [13-21%] Like the SH B-air option, this hits your opponent if he doesn't airdodge, but has fast enough startup to combo out of U-air on more characters than B-air does. It's nice because U-air has some sideways reach to catch some characters doing backwards DI. Holding A at your opponent's landing spot can hit them out of dodges and/or landing lag. This is escapable, however, by characters with hitstun resist (like Samus), and double jump, if you can't catch the U-air with the first hit.
- SH> (delay)>N-air/(airdodge?) (ROOOOY!) - [12-23%] It's a pretty campy and defensive option, and you'll need pretty good reaction speed if you wanna be able to pull this off well. U-throw>(instant) N-air combos on most characters if they don't airdodge, but it's easier to miss if they DI incorrectly due to its range. If you delay before, N-air, you give your opponent some time to counterattack or double jump, and SH in general can keep you from chasing your opponent's DI since Sonic accelerates slowly in midair. On the up-side, if you miss the N-air and FF out of range of your opponent, it has little landing lag so you can recuperate from the miss.
- U-smash/utilt, depending on DI, but with more priority on U-smash (Shadowlink84) - [12-23%] It makes heavy use of reading the opponent and knowing their trajectories with DI. U-tilt is easily countered avoided by DI towards Sonic's back, and if you miss, you can't really follow it up. U-smash, despite its benefits with priority, some invincibility frames, and airdodge punishment, is avoidable by your opponent double jumping, due to its startup lag. A missed U-smash is also hard to followup from. =[
- Feint via foxtrot/SH> Re-grab [12%] - Well, dNES cheats, so he pretty much does the same as Umby =P. But anyway, foxtrotting gives you the option of punishing an airdodge with an F-smash as well as a grab, and shields a little slower (side-B cancel) if your opponent decides to counter attack and you happen to be foxtrotting inside his attack range. Just avoid those situations and you'll be okay.(darkNES386)

Bonus 2:
Find the best answer to your opponent double jumping out of the U-throw (assuming that your opponent had enough hitstun resist or you didn't attack ASAP). For better answers, take into account that your opponent can double-jump left, up, or right, and at this point, can even attack you.

- SH U-air FF> Re-grab on landing (Tenki) - [12-19%] U-air can either outprioritize or force an airdodge from the opponent, who's rising from the double jump, but it's fast-falled, so it's not really meant to hit anyway. The real meat/point of this move is grabbing the landing. It still sucks to miss grabs though ;_;
- Double-take> Re-grab on landing (Umby) - [12%] Safe, keeps you in control. Don't miss grabs.
- Full hop U-air. (djbrowny) - [17-19%] Can outprioritize most aerials from opponents. However, since your opponent has more time/space, it's airdodgeable. Just don't do a rising U-air while your opponent is falling and airdodging through you or the roles will be reversed.
- Shieldgrab camp on high priority aerial chars, aerial on more vulnerable chars (ROOOOY!) - [12%-25%] Shieldgrab camping is pretty safe for the most part, as stressed enough with Umby's singular answer-to-all post. Making your followup based on what character you're fighting is important. Not bad `.`; Again, don't do rising aerials while your opponent is falling towards you. It screws up spacing if you're trying to U-air tip, or sets you up for an opponent's attack if he airdodges through you.
- Chase > Character-specific reactions: bait/punish counter attack, U-air aggressively, camp the landing (Shadowlink84) [12%+] Too general. Answers everything XD. Really though, character-specific reactions are good.
- Feint via foxtrot/SH> Re-grab (darkNES386) - Same as before. Don't miss grabs `.`;

--------------------------------
If you have any issues on these comments, feel free to point out and correct them. I started to get lazy for the bonus ones, even though they were the most important and are important for the main point of the question. lol.
 

ROOOOY!

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Very thorough. Should we nominate the best ones now to be updated to the opening post?
If so, I'd have to say :
a) Tenki's Bair.
b) Umby and Tenki's regrabbing idea.
c) My own delayed nair (cos I'm cool)
d) My own, ShadowLinks and Djbrowny's Up smash.
Bonus 1 : Umby's double take and re-grab (may not be the most rewarding, but it's the safest.)
Bonus 2 : I don't know lol
 

Umby

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double-take is more of a "mix-up" type of thing. Everyone goes nuts when they get uthrown, and try to avoid getting uaired as follow up. In response, they either dair, air dodge, or double jump. If either of the former happens, you can just double-take then re-grab until they get out of the habit, in which case you can now start SH Uairing after a uthrow.


Also, you look really bad ass when you chain two of them together, followed by uthrow -> uair.
 

Tenki

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There are a couple of things to take into account for these:
- Damage gain/reward. For example, with Kirby- where grabbing an opponent at 0% means like 40% free damage while grabbing an opponent at 20% might only mean 10% more - does the % you leave your opponent give you any better options?
- Control gain (and/or loss) - Do you still have control over your opponent? Is your opponent high above you, does he still have control over his movement? Are you starting over at neutral afterwards?
- Risk/punishability - Are you committed to the attack? How dangerous is a miss?
- Reliability - Is your opponent in hitstun (however short it is)? What can your opponent do concerning your followup?

The purpose of this thread is to kinda fine-tune what you can do out of certain situations, and bring awareness to... situations that we could all be doing better in.

I'm pretty sure the majority of this thread will be about throws at certain %'s, with DI and opponent movements in mind.

If you wanna be ahead of the game, start messing around with throws at low and mid %'s and where your opponent is and what your opponent can do depending on DI.

^^;

I brought a Falco from 0-80% purely out of throw-followups and re-grabs without getting hit. After the match, we both wtf'd because of it. I don't remember what the moves and DI were, but I'd like to be able to do that again some day. This is my true motive... mwahahaha
 

ShadowLink84

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I forgot the regrab thing and I was not too general.
I was just um... not specific.

Byt the way guys try this out if ou have Ocarina.
80000000 90180FB8
80000001 81000000
60000006 00000000
4A001000 00000000
38000000 00FF2B00
4A001001 00000000
142878C8 000000FF
14285548 000000FF
30283054 00000118
14282248 000000FF
E2000001 00000000
30283054 00000120
1427EF98 4F000000
E2000001 00000000
30283054 00000115
14282248 0000027F
E2000001 00000000
30283054 00000123
30283229 40ECCCCC
14283228 41100000
30283229 40BF5C28
14283228 41000000
E2000001 00000000
30283054 00000004
1428229c 704C36C0
30283055 00000008
1427EF98 4f000000
E200000F 00000000
80100000 0000005C
80100001 00052000
62000000 00000000
E0000000 80008000


it will blow your mother ****ing mind.
 

thecatinthehat

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I forgot the regrab thing and I was not too general.
I was just um... not specific.

Byt the way guys try this out if ou have Ocarina.
80000000 90180FB8
80000001 81000000
60000006 00000000
4A001000 00000000
38000000 00FF2B00
4A001001 00000000
142878C8 000000FF
14285548 000000FF
30283054 00000118
14282248 000000FF
E2000001 00000000
30283054 00000120
1427EF98 4F000000
E2000001 00000000
30283054 00000115
14282248 0000027F
E2000001 00000000
30283054 00000123
30283229 40ECCCCC
14283228 41100000
30283229 40BF5C28
14283228 41000000
E2000001 00000000
30283054 00000004
1428229c 704C36C0
30283055 00000008
1427EF98 4f000000
E200000F 00000000
80100000 0000005C
80100001 00052000
62000000 00000000
E0000000 80008000


it will blow your mother ****ing mind.

I'd try it but I dont try codes if IDK what they do. Care to elaborate?
 

Tenki

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I'd try it but I dont try codes if IDK what they do. Care to elaborate?
I can't try it, due to lack of TP/Ocarina, but I did ask him what it does.

From the sound of it, basically, this is what it would be like if Sonic was in Brawl. :laugh:

Definitely should make a thread of your own for that one, SL.

----------------------------

Back on topic: Any further comments on the answers and what I had to say about them?

Again, situations A-D were just 'warmups'/'preliminary' questions.

The real meat of the problem is in the "Bonus" part, since it takes into account the previous 'main' situations, but in 'real battle' situations. I started to get lazy by the time I got to that part, so some parts might be mis-analyzed.
 

Tenki

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^I went home for the weekend ;3

Also, more on the motive that noone seemed to catch.
I brought a Falco from 0-80% purely out of throw-followups and re-grabs without getting hit. After the match, we both wtf'd because of it. I don't remember what the moves and DI were, but I'd like to be able to do that again some day. This is my true motive... mwahahaha
edit:

v- nope.
 

Tenki

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Dun dun dun.....

SITUATION 2 IS UP!

>_>

This will be ... interesting.

It's a crowd favorite - Sonic's D-throw!
But is it really all it's hyped up to be?
 

ShadowLink84

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And Master_SL begins with a wall of text!

a) No-input (bad DI/stuck in short hitstun/doesn't tech the floor)
Proceed to ****.
Anyway I prefer running over to them and prepare for a regrab. At such a point Sonic easily gets to wherever the opponent will move and can grab them afterwards for another D throw.

Another option is to do a quick spincharge. of course it is less likely to hit but by doing so you'll get a bigger pay off in a short amount of time though its not as easy to land compared to going for a regrab.

mainly since the spincharge does not give you the same amount of control over the opponent.
So they can do a getup attack and hit you out of the spincharge while if you go fora regrab, they are forced to roll away in which case you can chase and act accordingly.

b) DI upwards (correct DI for D-throw).
You can go for a DAC if you are good with it since the high priority and speed of the move means you will catch up. At which point they must try to double jump away which means you are relatively safe. They won't risk trying to hit you out of it because your move is already out so it'll only result in them eating damage.

Another idea is to chase and then perform a Uair.
While the Uair doesn't have as much staying power as the Usmash and won't travel as far (since you're chasing with a quick Dash) you do run the risk of missing the opponent. however unlike the Usmash, you aren't constrained or committed allowing more options.


c) DI upwards+airdodge
Chase then bair~Fair/Nair
normally you could DAC or chase for a Uair but you may miss and the opponent can get a free hit afterwards.

So rather than trying to time the attack for when they airdodge, bait the airdodge with an aerial like the Bair and then hit them before they can attack with a move like the Fair or Uair.
You can Bair someone if they dodge the first Bair but its better to use a move like Fair or Nair.

You can also nair but that doesn't really hit them hard enough and they can attack afterwards due to ****ty hitstun created by the move and the poor knockback. There are numerous times where I Naired an opponent only for them to attack me immediately afterwards.

d) Any DI/teching the floor
If they tech the floor chase them and grab them. You can also do a spincharge combo but its harder to time and not as reliable.

Depending on what they do after the DI is the issue.
More aggressive opponents like DDD like to toss out a Dair in order to fend off ground attempts. In such a case you would pursue with a regular dash and then use an appropriate aerial.

More defensive tend to airdodge or tech and they can be a bit easier to deal IMO.
Airdodging will mean they will land on the ground unless they DI up in which case, if they due an immediate airdodge you can punish with a Fair.

If they delay or do it upon reaction just do a SH Uair then use a Utilt if they are in range or Ftilt.

Even if you miss the Utilt, Uair of Ftilt, you're applying pressure to the opponent.
Which is really good for facing some characters like Pit who get zoned pretty well by Sonic.

Regrabbing is always the best thing to happen but it really depends on what the opponent dodges.
At higher percentages regrabbing is much too difficult and its better to chase the opponent and apply pressure even if you don't directly cause damage, you'll maintain a situation where you are in control.
 

Terios the Hedgehog

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Situation 2.
You grab your opponent (midweight) at 25-40% at the center of the stage (flat surface) and perform a D-throw:

Find the best answer to your opponent doing...
a) No-input (bad DI/stuck in short hitstun/doesn't tech the floor)
b) DI upwards (correct DI for D-throw).
c) DI upwards+airdodge
d) Any DI/teching the floor


A.) Spindash
B.) I don't think I've ever seen anyone do this. If it works the way I THINK it would. Dash-F-air
C.) Hyphen Smash?
D.) Dash Regrab



I'm probably wrong but whatev. =P


:052:
 

Rickerdy-doo-da-day

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Might as well take a shot at this

a) Charge up a Spindash and wait for them to do what they're going to do

b) Dash in for a Fair?

c) Depends. If I saw this coming I may try to run past and Bair them. Or I'd play it safe and go for an Up Smash underneath them

d) I have no idea... I'd probably try spin dashing into them or spin shot over them --> Bair
 

Chis

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I forgot the regrab thing and I was not too general.
I was just um... not specific.

Byt the way guys try this out if ou have Ocarina.

Tonnes of numbers.

it will blow your mother ****ing mind.
I can't try it, due to lack of TP/Ocarina, but I did ask him what it does.

From the sound of it, basically, this is what it would be like if Sonic was in Brawl. :laugh:

Definitely should make a thread of your own for that one, SL.
Does anyone care to explain what it does?
 

da K.I.D.

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This question is totally moot, because at these percentages I am still up throwing for great justice.


Situation 2.
You grab your opponent (midweight) at 25-40% at the center of the stage (flat surface) and perform a D-throw:

Find the best answer to your opponent doing...
a) No-input (bad DI/stuck in short hitstun/doesn't tech the floor)
let me just say that should I ever make the mistake to be in this situation i am running up to them ASAP, and in this specifically, isnt it possible to start a jab lock?
b) DI upwards (correct DI for D-throw).
run up, and shield the obviously incoming airial
c) DI upwards+airdodge
run behind to pivot grab and back throw
d) Any DI/teching the floor
run up and regrab



Bonus 1:
Find the most 'rewarding' answer to your opponent not teching the floor [grounded opponent who can roll left, right, stand up, or do get-up attack]. 'Reward' can be defined by control (momentum/placement) and/or damage. Keep in mind that your opponent can either get up immediately or delay getting up.

run up next to them and shield, if they roll forward or backward, drop shield and run after them to either grab or f-air or dash attack depending on your reflexes. if they getup or get up attack, shield grab
Bonus 2:
Find the best answer to your opponent doing upwards DI to D-throw and escaping hitstun (can attack/double jump/airdodge)


i covered this, run up to them and shield, they hit your shield and you shield grab
 

Browny

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eh i dont know, whether the opponent techs the fall or not completely changes everything. you have to predict it. normally i go for an ASC straight up every time to punish them if they tech it, get up attack or roll towards me but if they roll backwards the only way that could be punished is if you predict it first. of course if you dthrow them and they will end up close to the edge of the stage a normal spindash charged straight away will punish practically everything they can do.

Also i didnt know DI'ing upwards, or even airdoding was possible from a dthrow, only tech/not tech?
 

Tenki

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lol, almost noone tried the bonus.

And yes, dj, to counter Sonic's D-throw, opponents can hold up to gain enough time to airdodge and land on their feet.

One of the points I chose to do D-throw at this percentage range is that it's still one of Sonic's more "limiting" moves for the enemy. If it's too high of a %, your opponent doing upwards DI can be like, shorthop height, and that's no good.

And one of the other points is so that you guys realize that D-throw != free techchase, not against someone familiar with the matchup and DI.
 

ROOOOY!

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You grab your opponent (midweight) at 25-40% at the center of the stage (flat surface) and perform a D-throw:
Find the best answer to your opponent doing...
a) No-input (bad DI/stuck in short hitstun/doesn't tech the floor)

I'd presume that they were a noob, and would try a get up attack if I rushed them. There upon I'd do a screech stop, they do their get up attack, and I'd punish the ending lag on it with a re-grab probably.

b) DI upwards (correct DI for D-throw).

Fair

c) DI upwards+airdodge

Hyphen smash, the upsmash hitbox stays out for ages so will probably catch the opponent once the airdodge has ended

d) Any DI/teching the floor

Probably go in for the re grab. I'm a grab *****.

Bonus 1:
Find the most 'rewarding' answer to your opponent not teching the floor [grounded opponent who can roll left, right, stand up, or do get-up attack]. 'Reward' can be defined by control (momentum/placement) and/or damage. Keep in mind that your opponent can either get up immediately or delay getting up.

Screech stop -> re grab?

Bonus 2:
Find the best answer to your opponent doing upwards DI to D-throw and escaping hitstun (can attack/double jump/airdodge)

Pshield incoming aerial -> utilt.
 

MarKO X

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my cpu doesn't like smashboards for some reason right now. the red and yellow on white make my eyes bleed.

I like the idea of this thread and would love to participate, but I'll have to come back later.

Bonus 1 for the 25-40% dsmash situation: foxtrot to stutterstep fsmash?
 

Tenki

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Any other participants?

I'm thinking of closing up this question lol.
 

Kinzer

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Situation 2.
You grab your opponent (midweight) at 25-40% at the center of the stage (flat surface) and perform a D-throw:

Find the best answer to your opponent doing...
a) No-input (bad DI/stuck in short hitstun/doesn't tech the floor)
b) DI upwards (correct DI for D-throw).
c) DI upwards+airdodge
d) Any DI/teching the floor



Bonus 1:
Find the most 'rewarding' answer to your opponent not teching the floor [grounded opponent who can roll left, right, stand up, or do get-up attack]. 'Reward' can be defined by control (momentum/placement) and/or damage. Keep in mind that your opponent can either get up immediately or delay getting up.


Bonus 2:
Find the best answer to your opponent doing upwards DI to D-throw and escaping hitstun (can attack/double jump/airdodge)
If they A) Don't do anything to try to counter D-throw, I jut go for a dash attack out of habit, which knocks them up (lol) into the air, where depending on where they happen to end up I either Fair/Nair/Uair. If I happen to hit them up even higher with Uair I'll attempt to double jump to another Uair. With Nair if they go in front on me I start charging up my ASC to catch them and hopefully hit them again with something. If they end up behind me with the Nair I'll just side-b behind me and if I still have my double jump use that for a spinshot.

If they B) DI upwards, although I hate to admit it, I'm just going to sit there and wait for them to land and release mycharged SC.

If they C) DI and airdodge, I'll do the same thing regardless, just wait for them to get their feet back on the ground and assault them.

If they D) Happen to DI wherever and tech the floor, I'll hyphen U-smash to get them into the air, worst case scenario Usmash past their backs, drain some of their shield, and Spring Jump to avoid any of their quick punishment follow-ups.

The best reward I see from this method is that I rack a lot of "combos" and damage in a short amount of time while my opponents can't do much to avoid it all if everything goes according to plan.
 
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