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Sonic Minus: Why don't you like me? Am I really that bad?

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Sonic Minus is probably one of the characters with the least "dramatic" changes. Let's just go over some of them real quick...

  • Dash attack can be jump canceled
  • Dash attack weak hit slips
  • UpB Spring spikes pretty hard
  • Fsmash has a hitbox when he pulls back from the hit
  • Dair knocks straight up
  • Homing attack faster
  • Landing lag halved on Fair
  • If you hold B out of Usmash, you cancel into a homing attack.
  • All of sonic's taunts can be canceled instantly
  • Dsmash has IASA after the first hit
  • Almost every move does 2-3 times as much damage as in vBrawl

If you play vBrawl sonic, the transition is virtually seamless.

We felt that buffing sonic's kill moves would, ultimately, remove most of the uniqueness of him as a character, making him more hemogenized with the rest of the cast. Bowser gets combo'd, Ganondorf is slow, and Sonic can't kill. Just some of the stuff you don't change in this game. So what we did was, instead of buffing his kill power, we buffed his damage output. A lot. A lot a lot. For reference:
  • Fsmash does 32 damage
  • Usmash does 33 damage
  • Nair does 22 damage on the strong hit
  • Fair does 23 damage if all hits connect
  • Bair does 25 damage

...yeah... You can kinda see that sonic got the needed boost. They all have the same KB at the same %s though, so it should be a piece of cake to figure out his combos.

Tips and Tricks:
-Fsmash is really hard to punish now. The hitbox lingers and moves with sonic's arm (dear god it's hilarious), giving you an elbow hitbox.
-Mostly due to the damage buffs, a lot of sonic's attacks have an absurdly high priority. He doesn't clash all that much.
-Hyphen Smash is a very good approach
-Spindashes are incredible.
-Nair kills better if you hit with the weak hits. They got damage buffs too, but the KBG compensation is slightly less than it should be. :3
-Sonic can set up a shieldbreaker combo out of his fsmash, which has absurd shieldstun. I believe Fsmash->Dash Attack->Jump Cancel->Nair should work... EDIT: No, Fsmash->Dash Attack does not work at all. Need to try more shenanigans. At the very least Fsmash->grab is guaranteed on block.


[collapse=changelist]------------------
==Sonic==
------------------

==JABS/DASH ATTACK==

Jab 1 - No Changes

Jab 2 - No Changes

Jab 3 - Damage up considerably; knockback gain compensated

Dash Attack - Damage up and knockback down on strong hit. Weak hit knockback up, slips. Less IASA; can be Jump Canceled very soon after the DA hitbox

==TILTS==

Forward Tilt - Damage up, KBG compensated

Up Tilt - Damage up, KBG compensated

Down Tilt - Damage up, KBG compensated. Faster IASA.

==SMASHES==

Forward Smash - Damage WAY up, KBG compensated. Has a hitbox when sonic pulls his elbow back after the punch.

Up Smash - Damage WAY up, intangible for most of the attack instead of just when he leaves the ground, can be canceled into a homing attack by pressing B, last hit angle significantly lower, knockback up

Down Smash - Damage up. Can be canceled into anything after the second hit. 4th hit (AKA the hit you should never, ever get hit by unless something went horribly, horribly wrong) does MASSIVE DAMAGE, has a ton of hitlag, and kills super early.

==AERIALS==

Neutral Air - Damage up on all hits, KBG compensated on all hits (slightly less on weak hits, meaning that they are viable as kill options at high %s!). Angle on strong hit lower. Hitbox lasts longer.

Forward Air - Does way more damage. Landing lag speed x3.

Back Air - Damage way up. KBG compensated. Strong hitbox lasts longer; weak hitbox doesn't exist

Up Air - Damage on second hit up, KBG down

Down Air - Damage up slightly, angle to straight up

==GRABS/THROWS==

Standing Grab - No changes

Dash Grab - No changes

Pivot Grab - No changes

Pummel - Speed x3

Forward Throw - No changes

Back Throw - No changes

Up Throw - Speed x2, damage up

Down Throw - Damage up considerably

==SPECIALS==

Neutral Special - Speed, damage up

Side Special - Damage up

Up Special - Spring has a light spike to it

Down Special - Damage up

==OTHER==

Attributes - Run speed way up, aerial jump hight slightly higher. [/collapse]
 

Xyless

Smash Master
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You also forget to mention that Homing Attack goes off a lot faster now.

Also taunt/dsmash canceling, sir. Those are half of his game.
 

cobaltblue

Smash Journeyman
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Sliding taunt canceled you're too slow is the hallmark of a pro Sonic player.
 

ChronicleX

Smash Cadet
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Oct 30, 2009
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This **** is bananas. I cant really give much of a feedback on it balance wise apart from this currently :laugh:

I so have a request though due to the "style" you made some of the characters (taking the best parts of all their previous incarnations into 1 super mofo) to add the ability to cancel out of a spinshot into a homing attack ala Sonic Adventure and add damage to his jumps (from that screw item). Apart from that nail on the head. Cookies for you.



Edit - Some feedback after playing around more, some of sonic moves seem out of place due to how slow they execute compared to his other moves. Mainly his Bair / utit / ftilt
 

Veril

Frame Savant
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Sonic's damage output is stupid. I don't see what's cool or appropriate about it based on Sonic as a character. Especially with his f-smash, which is the worst designed move in this game imo. Its trash. Like Pikachu's d-throw in B+ before we were able to edit throws (long long ago).

Sonic- is a sloppy b****. He's broken, but not in a good way. Really would have been a lot better if you had not put in those insane damage buffs (you guys are aware that shieldstun is damage based right)
 

Yoshara

Smash Lord
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If you ask me, Sonic should have a high damage output, but not due to single attacks doing 20%, instead he should have alot of really fast low damage low knockback attacks that all combo increadibly well, and his combos should go on for days.
 

[TSON]

Hella.
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Sonic's damage output is stupid. I don't see what's cool or appropriate about it based on Sonic as a character. Especially with his f-smash, which is the worst designed move in this game imo. Its trash. Like Pikachu's d-throw in B+ before we were able to edit throws (long long ago).

Sonic- is a sloppy b****. He's broken, but not in a good way. Really would have been a lot better if you had not put in those insane damage buffs (you guys are aware that shieldstun is damage based right)
it's a friendly poke at balanced brawl, who refused to buff damage or something like that. idk, ask BPC.
 

Kaye Cruiser

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I love Sonic- just the way he is to be honest. Hope you guys don't change a thing. :3
 

cobaltblue

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If you ask me, Sonic should have a high damage output, but not due to single attacks doing 20%, instead he should have alot of really fast low damage low knockback attacks that all combo increadibly well, and his combos should go on for days.
I believe this was brought up before. The problem is that sonic being a last minute character in smash has moves that for the most part don't mesh well with each other and are not combo friendly when compared to the rest of the cast. I may be thinking it was B+ team member who said this however.
 
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First of all: I made sonic. He was the first one. It's bound to be just a little bit sloppy.
Second of all: we do not have much space to work with. 10k; about what pit gets.
Third of all: It is indeed a prod at bbrawl; I remember fondly a discussion on how to buff sonic; sonic mains were begging "GIVE US KILL MOVES DAMMIT" and they weren't getting it. So I decided to lampoon that.
Fourth of all: I don't see the problem. I find sonic pretty fun, honestly.
 

Veril

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Sonic- is stupid. Both Blind (who actually is on the B- team AND in the B+ broom) and myself ("insert lengthy list of balance credentials") have singled out one of his moves as being overwhelmingly stupid: f-smash. I would be surprised if Kirk didn't also agree with us.

I'm not hating on B-. Its just a really mixed bag and Sonic- is beyond ******** with the damage buffs. Nobody cares about the inside joke. Just
 

[TSON]

Hella.
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Blind vanished from the B- team to work on changelists and never came back. The little b**** :O

AAANYWAYS. What is it about fsmash that isn't likeable? The kill power on the initial hitbox? That is pretty ridiculous.
 

Kaye Cruiser

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You know, this is one of the few times where I say this.

**** the criticism. If the people already enjoy it, then there's no need to change it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. :3

...Wait...
 

Veril

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Blind vanished from the B- team to work on Brawl+
Fixed.

Anyway, Sonic's damage tweaks just don't make sense outside of the "BBrawl inside joke" and that is the flimsiest justification... some of your changes work with Sonic's teleology (every now and then I need to bust out that word). Fast, combo-heavy, iasa on hit, annoying as f*** (taunt canceling lol)... that all makes sense. You should continue to refine those aspects of Sonic- and remove the silly damage adjustments.

Also, consider using the accidental B+ Sonic nair angle: 20°. Yay terrible accidents of coding...

The cancelable up-smash is very clever, as is the jump-cancelable dash attack. You guys had a whole bunch of good ideas, its only the f-smash and damage buffs that are ********.
 

[TSON]

Hella.
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I nerfed bair and fsmash's damage heavily (compensated KB obv).

Tbh I think there's a very slim chance of letting anything else slide by.
 
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