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Sonic got nerfed out the @ss in 3.5

Do you think Sonic got nerfed out the ass?


  • Total voters
    66

DireDrop

Smash Journeyman
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He struggles against hit boxes. Anyone who can throw out hitboxes that are disjointed, lingering, or both will give him trouble. That, and he does terribly against crouch cancel. Like Bowser for example, Sonic really can't do anything but grab until Bowser is at super high percent.

I also feel that he has trouble landing kills. I miss 2.6 fair.

Edit: Or maybe it was 2.5 fair? I can't remember. The non-meteor hitbox of Sonic's fair used to hit really hard. I wish it still did.
 
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Avro-Arrow

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I will agree Bowser can be tough at times, but with characters with great hitboxes, I just run around a lot, call them too slow, and smack my a** a bunch of times for good measure. But enough being an ahole. Seriously, his movement is so good that I don't really have too much of a problem with hitboxes. You can juggle large characters easily, edgeguard them, and chain throw them. For the characters who have range but Aren't large (like Fire Emblem, Samus-ish, Link) I bait moves from them with dashdances, wavedashes, platform mindgames, or shffls because they generally have Long endlag. Very punishable, might I add.

I also use homing attack, or his spin dash/charge shot. With Sonic, you have something to get at them most of the time, and if you don't, you can normally get away from it just by running away so that you can position yourself so you Can attack them.

I love his fair. It serves as a safe option to approach on-shield if they don't have impressive grab range (think of Ness). I also use it like falco; stand at the edge and short hop it. Kills seem easy for me. Nair near the ledge or off-stage, upair sometimes, even upsmash, fsmash and dsmash (although I only use upsmash sparingly). Bair works too. Uthrow sets up for his aerials, and Sonic can edgeguard offstage with fair easy. Or onstage with dsmash should they mess up the sweetspot.

I feel Sonic simply got more polished. He retained all of his options that weren't broke, and his design is more attractive now because of it.
 

JFyst

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Nov 30, 2014
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sonic lost a lot of his kill potential and combo ability while still being pretty combo food himself. I hate falco, laser camping is hard to deal with, i feel fox is an issue as well, bowser is hard to kill, but he kills us easy, and if he gets us off stage, we're not coming back. G&W is terrible, all the active frames he has on all of his attacks are terrible. I feel we gained a lot more bad match-ups especially with the up b being our only reliable way to return to stage, way to easy to edge-guard. Link is ****ing terrible that up b may as well be sonic repellent, and he has so many projectiles and disjoints, its hard to get in and when you do, if you over extend anything a down air, or grab into dair is waiting.
 
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FeintStep

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
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sonic lost a lot of his kill potential and combo ability while still being pretty combo food himself. I hate falco, laser camping is hard to deal with, i feel fox is an issue as well, bowser is hard to kill, but he kills us easy, and if he gets us off stage, we're not coming back. G&W is terrible, all the active frames he has on all of his attacks are terrible. I feel we gained a lot more bad match-ups especially with the up b being our only reliable way to return to stage, way to easy to edge-guard. Link is ****ing terrible that up b may as well be sonic repellent, and he has so many projectiles and disjoints, its hard to get in and when you do, if you over extend anything a down air, or grab into dair is waiting.
okay soooooo with link and most every other character you have an optimal range that gives you the most options, to me that range is SHffl fair range, at this range you get access to dash jump nair while going through shield, dash>crouch>jab1>jab2 to any tilt, grab or smash attack but usmash, JC grab range/can pressure any run up shield or shields too close to you with a boost grab, its guaranteed to grab on shield if you space it right i literally run at people with it every time i see a shield up now, and almost in range for side-b/down-b believe me if youre in range at all times of link where you can do all those things he literally stands no chance at the amount of options and mixups you can throw at him

Edit: at this range though you have to be dash dancing very well to avoid any approaches while still punishing with the jabs or grabs
 
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Avro-Arrow

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Make up your mind, dude. Is it to DireDrop or everyone who thinks Sonic DID get nerfed out the ***?
Actually DireDrop and I had a conversation, dude, so I placed the tag at the beginning of the post because both parts of my comment concerned him, dude. Perhaps it was stylistically incorrect, dude, but I believe most people understand that the word "everyone" means more than one person, dude. I probably shouldn't dignify this with a response since you're just an Internet Tough Guy trying to look cool to strangers on the web, dude, but I find your attitude unwelcome and your post deteriorating to the point of the thread - whether or not people think Sonic is bad or not.

Thanks :)

Dude
 

Avro-Arrow

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sonic lost a lot of his kill potential and combo ability while still being pretty combo food himself. I hate falco, laser camping is hard to deal with, i feel fox is an issue as well, bowser is hard to kill, but he kills us easy, and if he gets us off stage, we're not coming back. G&W is terrible, all the active frames he has on all of his attacks are terrible. I feel we gained a lot more bad match-ups especially with the up b being our only reliable way to return to stage, way to easy to edge-guard. Link is ****ing terrible that up b may as well be sonic repellent, and he has so many projectiles and disjoints, its hard to get in and when you do, if you over extend anything a down air, or grab into dair is waiting.
I find Link can be a difficult matchup to learn, but movement is so much more important here. The boomerang can still be a problem to get around, but if you can get him to throw out a sword attack or pull a bomb/charge an arrow, you have a free punish on him. Uthrow has guaranteed follow-ups on him too. I play against Link a lot, so I know the ins and outs of the matchup like the back of my hand. Post 3.0, this MU isn't that bad at all ~ 50/50 or slightly tilted Sonic. The throws punish him way too much for this to be a bad MU. I don't believe Link has disjoints either. The top triangle doesn't hit on the sword, but the hitboxes are wider so Uair and Dair are a little bit large for Sonic. The Boomerang has a disjoint at the beginning, and maybe the dash attack, but that's about it. The grapple is one of the only grabs that can't pluck people out of the air.

Falco's laser camping isn't actually that bad agaisnt Sonic; Sonic can use a running jump to get all the way across the stage and get over the height of the laser and punish. Plus, his punishes off of a fair are sweet, and his dair forces into a tech chase, as do his throws. So if you practice tech chases, you're fine to wrack up at least about 20-30 %. And his dsmash and nair are great kill moves. Even his ftilt is fairly safe and gets him off of the edge. Sonic's utilt and uair are good too for juggles, following up into themselves (utilt = tech chase at low percent, but you shouldn't use it really). I think Falco isn't bad for Sonic at all.

Fox is definitely one of Sonic's hardest MUs, pretty unanimously among the Sonic community. He kills Sonic early with uair, upsmash, and when a Sonic player spindashes, they are taking a great risk in doing so, as obviously Fox's hitboxes overpower Sonic's. But in this MU, I try to take Fox off of the edge ASAP, and I go for shffl nairs, fairs, dairs and chain throws to rack up damage at low percents. Edgeguards are easy in this MU too, like with Sonic/Falco. Sonic loses the neutral, and probably overall too as a result. But it's not so bad, maybe ~40-45/60-55 in Fox's favour.

EDIT: TL;DR Link is combo food, so not bad, Falco is gimpable, so not bad, and Fox just means you have to outright outplay them. Bowser... is Bowser, once you find the purple button you'll be fine but Bowser can cheese anyone. Never get comfortable in that MU, with any character (not even Sheik 0.o). I have 0 xp against a good GW, but we kill him early, moreso than some others (so there's that at least).
 
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TKDbeast

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Actually DireDrop and I had a conversation, dude, so I placed the tag at the beginning of the post because both parts of my comment concerned him, dude. Perhaps it was stylistically incorrect, dude, but I believe most people understand that the word "everyone" means more than one person, dude. I probably shouldn't dignify this with a response since you're just an Internet Tough Guy trying to look cool to strangers on the web, dude, but I find your attitude unwelcome and your post deteriorating to the point of the thread - whether or not people think Sonic is bad or not.

Thanks :)

Dude
Don't need to be so rude about it, dude. It just was confusing, dude.

Why are you saying dude, dude?
 

GabPR

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He struggles against hit boxes. Anyone who can throw out hitboxes that are disjointed, lingering, or both will give him trouble. That, and he does terribly against crouch cancel. Like Bowser for example, Sonic really can't do anything but grab until Bowser is at super high percent.

I also feel that he has trouble landing kills. I miss 2.6 fair.

Edit: Or maybe it was 2.5 fair? I can't remember. The non-meteor hitbox of Sonic's fair used to hit really hard. I wish it still did.
Grabbing bowser is relatively easy tbh, it is his main weakness. Also Sonic has a lot of good conversions off of his throw, and can also lead into kills. Fair is fine.
 

TKDbeast

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Grabbing bowser is relatively easy tbh, it is his main weakness. Also Sonic has a lot of good conversions off of his throw, and can also lead into kills. Fair is fine.
Not to mention that his size also makes him easier to combo.
 

Avro-Arrow

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Don't need to be so rude about it, dude. It just was confusing, dude.

Why are you saying dude, dude?
LOL I said dude, dude, because you said dude. It comes across as demeaning when you criticize someone. It appeared like criticism because you formatted did the same way I did, which looks like you're mocking me, and didn't give real response to the thread or my prompt to keep the discussion going.
 

Avro-Arrow

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Actually, what does everyone think about the Sonic/Samus MU? I heard Samus wins, but I'm not so sure. Seems a little bit like Falcon/Samus, but I have no actual experience playing it. Sorry to double post.
 

DireDrop

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Just edit your comment if you want to say more. There's no need to double post. Mods crack down on that stuff.

Don't know much about Samus specifically, but I'm starting to realize it's really worth taking the time to learn powershielding. It helps relieve a lot of pressure against projectile characters.
 
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GabPR

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Samus has a slight advantage in her neutral with her zoning tools, while sonic has an easier time than other characters due to his speed you still have to watch out for her cc. Howhever, where Sonic falls behing in the neutral, he comes ot ahead in his punish game.

Sonic can combo Samus better than most characters, not only that but he has an easier time to edge guard her too. Wth that being said on order to rate the matchup you have to think what is more important: Having a better neutral or having a better punish game?
 

Avro-Arrow

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Samus has a slight advantage in her neutral with her zoning tools, while sonic has an easier time than other characters due to his speed you still have to watch out for her cc. Howhever, where Sonic falls behing in the neutral, he comes ot ahead in his punish game.

Sonic can combo Samus better than most characters, not only that but he has an easier time to edge guard her too. Wth that being said on order to rate the matchup you have to think what is more important: Having a better neutral or having a better punish game?
Normally a better neutral is more important. But it also matters how stacked the different games are: if Sonic struggles to get out of neutral, more than it merits his punish game, then he loses. Otherwise, he wins. My thoughts were that people were underestimating Sonic's ability to escape the neutral.

EDIT: @ GabPR GabPR Plus, his neutral is actually pretty good against a lot of characters. His movement options allow him to bait approaches, move away from approaches, and transition into his own approach in spectacular time.
 
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666blaziken

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In all honesty, he needed every single nerf he got. Most of his nerfs were recovery nerfs, which is what he needed because he already has a good recovery in his up b's hugely vertical momentum, and his ability to act out of it. His homing attack needed the nerf as well. I found it very frusterating as pikachu that when I punished him for not sweetspotting the ledge with my F-smash, he just homing attacked his way back on stage. With all of the recoveries being no better than pikachu's or fox's, why should sonic be the only one who is allowed to dash through the air to recover, with the potential of punishing you for edge guarding?
 

Avro-Arrow

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Samus has a slight advantage in her neutral with her zoning tools, while sonic has an easier time than other characters due to his speed you still have to watch out for her cc. Howhever, where Sonic falls behing in the neutral, he comes ot ahead in his punish game.

Sonic can combo Samus better than most characters, not only that but he has an easier time to edge guard her too. Wth that being said on order to rate the matchup you have to think what is more important: Having a better neutral or having a better punish game?
To me, all Samus can really do is fire missiles in neutral. All of her other options are generally punishable by Sonic. And the missiles are often too slow to really stop Sonic's approach. Regardless, her fair is safe, as is her nair mostly. So she has that going for her.
 

JFyst

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In all honesty, he needed every single nerf he got. Most of his nerfs were recovery nerfs, which is what he needed because he already has a good recovery in his up b's hugely vertical momentum, and his ability to act out of it. His homing attack needed the nerf as well. I found it very frusterating as pikachu that when I punished him for not sweetspotting the ledge with my F-smash, he just homing attacked his way back on stage. With all of the recoveries being no better than pikachu's or fox's, why should sonic be the only one who is allowed to dash through the air to recover, with the potential of punishing you for edge guarding?
We lost on stage presence, because our down b is gone (The turning hitbox which set up combo's), his up b is trash, you can't sweet spot, so its the easiest thing to edge guard. If you try to grab ledge with side b and miss, your dead. homing attack is super risky off stage or near ledge. This character needed nerf, but a lot of them result in ******** SD's or a complete loss of pressure options.
 

GabPR

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We lost on stage presence, because our down b is gone (The turning hitbox which set up combo's), his up b is trash, you can't sweet spot, so its the easiest thing to edge guard. If you try to grab ledge with side b and miss, your dead. homing attack is super risky off stage or near ledge. This character needed nerf, but a lot of them result in ******** SD's or a complete loss of pressure options.
1. you can actually combo out of skid stop in this version now, which is godlike.
2.up B does have a thras vertical sweetspot, but his horizontal sweetspot is misleadingly far.
3.If you try to grab the ledge with side b and miss (which you shouldnt really) or opponent grabs the ledge, you can retract it earlier now and have enough time to do up b or jump into anything for mixups in recovery and onstage mindgames.
4.Homing attack is still gud. You only go into special fall if you dont have a target or the opponent airdoges/spotdoges, and it even has more range to compensate. you can sweetspot the ledge with blast attack, still home spacies to death(just be carefull if they try to fast fall to go around it) and use it as a combo extension in some situations. If you are using it onstage in the ledge, you can press the opposite direction from the ledge and then use homing. If the opponent goes far or airdoges, instead of falling to your death you go inside the stage.

Conclusion, hit the lab.
 

666blaziken

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We lost on stage presence, because our down b is gone (The turning hitbox which set up combo's), his up b is trash, you can't sweet spot, so its the easiest thing to edge guard. If you try to grab ledge with side b and miss, your dead. homing attack is super risky off stage or near ledge. This character needed nerf, but a lot of them result in ******** SD's or a complete loss of pressure options.
Ok first of all, you didn't lose on stage presense, you lost the ability to be braindead on stage. Like, sure the down b backwards combo is cool, but is it really that much fun to stay in shield against sonic every single time he uses down b? His stage presense is still extremely strong; keep in mind, you're the fastest character in the game, and have the 3rd best aerial mobility, and your attacks come out extremely fast in proportion to the cast, in addition to some really good grab combos and a moonwalk. Down B and side B should serve as a MIX-UP not the to-go move. As I said before, homing attack is supposed to be super risky off stage, otherwise he is damn near impossible to gimp at low percents otherwise; he will just homing attack if he gets knocked away... Does he really need that in addition to his already good aerial mobility? Keep in mind, he can still attack out of his up b, so he still has some easy kills off the top should up air hit. He has a great onstage game and an ok recovery game, and that is how he should be.

I feel especially passionate about these nerfs because they improved my friend (darksilence) as a player. When I first met him during the summer, he used sonic. He didn't wavedash, didn't tech, didn't L-cancel, didn't moonwalk, and didn't edgeguard till later on when I taught him those things. But somehow, he still kept even with me throughout the months because he relied on spamming down B > up air > up b > up air. When he wasn't doing that and I finally had the chance to attack, he would up tilt > up B > up air. Even with pikachu's up air, he would spam homing attack (occasionally hit me along the way) and still survive. When 3.5 came out, I usually destroy him every game because I had overall better fundamentals and I could actually gimp him. However, he has beaten me a couple of times and has forced me to use more mixups. He has been starting to use legit combos now and has made his own ken combo (I call it the silencer) where he would hit with the sour spot on his fair twice and spike with the 3rd one if I didn't DI it. He would've never learned how to do that in 3.02 because he didn't need to use any other moves besides down B and I am thankful that even if 3.5 caters to the spacies (which I don't really believe, but some people do) at least most characters are reliant on skill rather than gimmicks, and the game feels overall more fun to play.
 

Avro-Arrow

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Ok first of all, you didn't lose on stage presense, you lost the ability to be braindead on stage. Like, sure the down b backwards combo is cool, but is it really that much fun to stay in shield against sonic every single time he uses down b? His stage presense is still extremely strong; keep in mind, you're the fastest character in the game, and have the 3rd best aerial mobility, and your attacks come out extremely fast in proportion to the cast, in addition to some really good grab combos and a moonwalk. Down B and side B should serve as a MIX-UP not the to-go move. As I said before, homing attack is supposed to be super risky off stage, otherwise he is damn near impossible to gimp at low percents otherwise; he will just homing attack if he gets knocked away... Does he really need that in addition to his already good aerial mobility? Keep in mind, he can still attack out of his up b, so he still has some easy kills off the top should up air hit. He has a great onstage game and an ok recovery game, and that is how he should be.

I feel especially passionate about these nerfs because they improved my friend (darksilence) as a player. When I first met him during the summer, he used sonic. He didn't wavedash, didn't tech, didn't L-cancel, didn't moonwalk, and didn't edgeguard till later on when I taught him those things. But somehow, he still kept even with me throughout the months because he relied on spamming down B > up air > up b > up air. When he wasn't doing that and I finally had the chance to attack, he would up tilt > up B > up air. Even with pikachu's up air, he would spam homing attack (occasionally hit me along the way) and still survive. When 3.5 came out, I usually destroy him every game because I had overall better fundamentals and I could actually gimp him. However, he has beaten me a couple of times and has forced me to use more mixups. He has been starting to use legit combos now and has made his own ken combo (I call it the silencer) where he would hit with the sour spot on his fair twice and spike with the 3rd one if I didn't DI it. He would've never learned how to do that in 3.02 because he didn't need to use any other moves besides down B and I am thankful that even if 3.5 caters to the spacies (which I don't really believe, but some people do) at least most characters are reliant on skill rather than gimmicks, and the game feels overall more fun to play.
The Ken Combo with Sonic is a thing. It mostly depends on which of the many hitboxes the fair hits with, although it is obviously necessary to hit with at least one sourspot (Btw, the 'Silencer,' props bro). @_Chrome lol. It's even on the PM website I believe. In 3.0, Sonic's up B to up air wasn't polarizing like you make it out to be, and it's essentially the same as it is now, although it is a relatively reliable and effective kill setup.

His stage prescence is awesome because of his wavedash and dashdance too. Sonic's recovery remains formidable like @ GabPR GabPR , not just "ok;" the horizontal sweetspot and speed of the recovery are super effective.

And it's good to know his aerial mobility stat; it's definitely up there. Where did you find this? Did you research from Brawl data, test in game, or is there a database for PM? I'd like to know.

Edit: One last note: It's good to know the nerfs improved your friend's game. I feel like I improved as well; nerfs to a character's game means you have to focus on Smash's fundamentals more like movement and spacing, as well as the character's other strengths, meaning it improves your decision-making and game knowledge. Although, I am emerging in my area's smash scene, so it may be just me improving. I always played low tiers starting out learning the competitive game anyways.
 
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Avro-Arrow

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Conclusion, hit the lab PLAY THE GAME! :disco: It's pretty fun .
:estatic:

1. check
2. I couldn't agree more: The speed of his recovery is also not talked about, and means your opponent won't know whether or not you'll be returning on stage or heading for the ledge; this means you can hit them with a nair or fair or dair or uair... if you go on stage.
3. ehh, it's possible you'll live (it happens to me on FD sometimes, it's hit and miss) but on smaller stages, you're all but fEFFed.
4.I wasn't aware special fall initiated after they spot/airdodge. I thought that because there was a target, the homing attack simply missed.
 
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GabPR

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:estatic:

1. check
2. I couldn't agree more: The speed of his recovery is also not talked about, and means your opponent won't know whether or not you'll be returning on stage or heading for the ledge; this means you can hit them with a nair or fair or dair or uair... if you go on stage.
3. ehh, it's possible you'll live (it happens to me on FD sometimes, it's hit and miss) but on smaller stages, you're all but fEFFed.
4.I wasn't aware special fall initiated after they spot/airdodge. I thought that because there was a target, the homing attack simply missed.
You do not go into special fall if you lock on to an opponent, only if you do not have an initial lock on. Blast attack will always special fall unless you hit a wall or opponent. Also, to compensate for this, sonic has an increased range on the lock on of hiw homing attack. Dont be surprised if we see ongoing nerfs on Sonic to his homing, its posible the move is still pretty op as an edge guard tool.
 

Avro-Arrow

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You do not go into special fall if you lock on to an opponent, only if you do not have an initial lock on. Blast attack will always special fall unless you hit a wall or opponent. Also, to compensate for this, sonic has an increased range on the lock on of hiw homing attack. Dont be surprised if we see ongoing nerfs on Sonic to his homing, its posible the move is still pretty op as an edge guard tool.
So if I initiate HA, and then they airdodge right before it hits them, then I'm good right? That's how I remember it.

Edit: I don't have PM right now, so I can't test these things unfortunately. That being said, I play at Smash Club on Fridays at my school.
 
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GabPR

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So if I initiate HA, and then they airdodge right before it hits them, then I'm good right? That's how I remember it.

Edit: I don't have PM right now, so I can't test these things unfortunately. That being said, I play at Smash Club on Fridays at my school.
You will have a bit of falling lag, but you can act out of it relatively quickly out of it.
 

jordanm43444

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Yea, as long as it locks on you're safe, its really odd but thats how it works. Obvs if you dont lock on then rip, which is one of the changes ill never forgive the PMDT for.
 

GabPR

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Yea, as long as it locks on you're safe, its really odd but thats how it works. Obvs if you dont lock on then rip, which is one of the changes ill never forgive the PMDT for.
you can go around it by homing towards the ledge, even if it does not lock on you will sweetspot it safely and be at an edguarding advantage. Reason why I recently think homing might still be op, but thats still up for testing.
 

jordanm43444

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Even at that it made my offstage game not wortwhile at all, since I loved HA opponents offstage to get the kill. I know I could just "adapt" but the nerf on HA just made me never wanna touch the move again. Id be COMPLETELY fine if it locked us out of doing another HA if we miss, like any characters upb (aside from ZSS, that lucky *****), since that would fix the recovery issue and keep it useable off stage, and not make me **** myself every time I go for it offstage. The HA nerf was a BIG reason I dropped 3.5 Sonic and PM as a whole.
 

GabPR

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Even at that it made my offstage game not wortwhile at all, since I loved HA opponents offstage to get the kill. I know I could just "adapt" but the nerf on HA just made me never wanna touch the move again. Id be COMPLETELY fine if it locked us out of doing another HA if we miss, like any characters upb (aside from ZSS, that lucky *****), since that would fix the recovery issue and keep it useable off stage, and not make me **** myself every time I go for it offstage. The HA nerf was a BIG reason I dropped 3.5 Sonic and PM as a whole.
The move is still good, and if you do what i said about aiming it at the ledge its risk free. You dropped it because of that? if thats so then it may be because your too lazy to practice.

Edit, I forgot to mention, he has other moves too. You could use them to recover as well.
 
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jordanm43444

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The thing is, I never used the HA that close to the ledge, I used it closer to the blastzone.Im not saying sonics recovery is bad now, no idea where you got that from but I said that because thats the reason it was nerfed like that in the first place.And im not too lazy to practice, the style Sonic now has just dosent suit my tastes, so instead of playing him and having no fun i dropped him and had fun with other characters.
 

GabPR

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The thing is, I never used the HA that close to the ledge, I used it closer to the blastzone.Im not saying sonics recovery is bad now, no idea where you got that from but I said that because thats the reason it was nerfed like that in the first place.And im not too lazy to practice, the style Sonic now has just dosent suit my tastes, so instead of playing him and having no fun i dropped him and had fun with other characters.
I get it, it can be a drag when a character can be changed a bit. For me Sonic still plays the same, just cant abuse his specials as much. If people tell me that they dont like the character beacause they find others more fun I understand. If people tell me they dont use them because their bad... thats just wrong
 

jordanm43444

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Personally for me, I loved his old HA broken or not. So that nerf really ****ing hit me hard, and by the time I tried to pick SOnic back up Smash 4 was already out and I was playing that a hell of a lot more than PM, so really I havent had the tome to go back and learn him either. I still play PM occasionally but when I do I hardly ever touch Sonic in fear that he messes up my sm4sh sonic. I have the utmost respect for any player who stuck through the changes and are making Sonic look like a threat still, but to me he just isnt as fun as he used to be.
 

GabPR

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Personally for me, I loved his old HA broken or not. So that nerf really ****ing hit me hard, and by the time I tried to pick SOnic back up Smash 4 was already out and I was playing that a hell of a lot more than PM, so really I havent had the tome to go back and learn him either. I still play PM occasionally but when I do I hardly ever touch Sonic in fear that he messes up my sm4sh sonic. I have the utmost respect for any player who stuck through the changes and are making Sonic look like a threat still, but to me he just isnt as fun as he used to be.
o well, the point is to stick with what you enjoy the most. Just remember that if you need help with PM Sonic the boards can always lend a hand.
 

666blaziken

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Personally for me, I loved his old HA broken or not. So that nerf really ****ing hit me hard, and by the time I tried to pick SOnic back up Smash 4 was already out and I was playing that a hell of a lot more than PM, so really I havent had the tome to go back and learn him either. I still play PM occasionally but when I do I hardly ever touch Sonic in fear that he messes up my sm4sh sonic. I have the utmost respect for any player who stuck through the changes and are making Sonic look like a threat still, but to me he just isnt as fun as he used to be.
See, even though you loved it, keeping it in would make him top tier and would break the pmdt's philosophy of there being no guaranteed recoveries. I'm sorry, but being able to gimp people with homing attack without any risk as well as recovering from a well deserved gimp is brain dead and free. It's like, why bother timing a fair that can spike when you can just spam b?

Look, outside of brawl, I use pikachu in every smash game, with 64, ssf2, melee, and project m as a main, and in smash 4 as a secondary, whenever I enter a tournament, I put take a break from the other games and focus on that one game for the tournament. Sure I get slightly worse, but I usually get back to where I started within the next hour. The aforementioned sonic main also uses sonic in smash 4. He is still really good, and has beaten me from time to time, so sonic is still a really good character.
 

jordanm43444

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Im a person who dosent give two ****s about tiers, if a characters good, then they are good. So be it. But as it stands 3.5 Sonic is just not for me, and it alreasy messed me up mid tourney while I was playing smash 4 I tried to ledgesnap while recovering with sideb...because i thought it was PM suddenly. Which is when I told myself to just stop with PM Sonic and move on. I actually win in smash 4 now compared to PM, regardless of the skill level for each game or not. If I had the tome id put more effort into learning PM Sonic again, but as it stands the HA nerf hurt me too much and wouldve been completely fine if it just got locked out after one use rather than have it special fall.
 

666blaziken

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So if I initiate HA, and then they airdodge right before it hits them, then I'm good right? That's how I remember it.

Edit: I don't have PM right now, so I can't test these things unfortunately. That being said, I play at Smash Club on Fridays at my school.
Well, let's say I aerial dodge or spot dodge before your homing attack targeting box flashes on me (the one shown in debug mode) you will miss and go into special fall. However, if your targeting box touches me, but sonic is too slow to actually hit me, you won't go into special fall. It's still incredibly risky, but if you are facing someone like marth who probably won't aerial dodge unless he predicts you homing attack (which would result in an sd for both characters) and homing attack is a little safer. Still a guarantee against fire fox or fire bird though. By the way, the data is here: http://smashboards.com/threads/p-m-3-0-statistics-list-shff-speed-weight-falling-speed-etc.335019/
 

666blaziken

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Im a person who dosent give two ****s about tiers, if a characters good, then they are good. So be it. But as it stands 3.5 Sonic is just not for me, and it alreasy messed me up mid tourney while I was playing smash 4 I tried to ledgesnap while recovering with sideb...because i thought it was PM suddenly. Which is when I told myself to just stop with PM Sonic and move on. I actually win in smash 4 now compared to PM, regardless of the skill level for each game or not. If I had the tome id put more effort into learning PM Sonic again, but as it stands the HA nerf hurt me too much and wouldve been completely fine if it just got locked out after one use rather than have it special fall.
It would not be completley fine though, that's still to free in proportion to the rest of the cast. Imagine if falcon could side b before an up b every time, imagine if fox or falco also had that same option. It's unfair to those that timed their tilts or smash attacks near or off the ledge while the opponent has a low percentage because it gives them another chance to keep their stock. You can still use the homing attack to edge guard, you just can't be stupid about it, or go as far (which you won't have to because everyone has a fair recovery)
 
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