Sonic got nerfed out the @ss in 3.5

[ShbeblyTheGreat]

I don't know if it's just me, but Sonic seems a lot.... weaker, in terms of character changes. The biggest issue I had adapting to was going into Special Fall after a flubbed homing attack. It was a good way to mind game an oppenent or style across the stage. Now, it's just a risky move to do.
I still main Sonic in PM, but does anyone else feel like he got nerfed pretty hard, or is it just me having trouble adapting to these new changes?

 

[GabPR]

I don't know if it's just me, but Sonic seems a lot.... weaker, in terms of character changes. The biggest issue I had adapting to was going into Special Fall after a flubbed homing attack. It was a good way to mind game an oppenent or style across the stage. Now, it's just a risky move to do.
I still main Sonic in PM, but does anyone else feel like he got nerfed pretty hard, or is it just me having trouble adapting to these new changes?

Everyone will have trouble adapting to Sonic , especially if you were overly dependant on homing attacks and spin dashes. He needed the nerfs for the sake of 3.5. But overall he is still a great character with a great recovery, combo potential and mobility.

 

[Vultron]

It's just annoying that they called this update trimming the fat, which you would think mean balancing, but when they lopside characters more, I question the development choices.

 

[Ness_STFU]

He is largely unusable now. I am questioning the wisdom of the devs myself at this point. He's not Jiggly, Ice Climbers or Olimar in 3.0 bad, but he's definitely high low-tier or low mid-tier now.

The problem was that the devs thought they were nerfing his recovery, but they didn't watch enough Sonic videos to realize much of his moves double as recovery AND offensive options. His recovery got nerfed, and inadvertently, his offense too.

3.0 Sonic - The Pros:

• Limited but powerful and fun combo game- spinshot starter combos, gimps (tap-SideB to push off stage -> HA -> nair -> recover), tilt-chains (dtilt -> utilt -> jc grab -> etc). (Remember running off stage and spinsshotting back on with a falling uair or fair? I miss that...)
  
• He had good matchups and bad. The Links, laser-happy Falcos, patient Foxes who CC -> shine and other characters with good options OOS could stop him cold, but it was possible with patience to get in on zoners like Fire Emblems and Ganondorfs.
  
• He didn't have a LOT of floaty answers, but he had uair.
• Horizontal recovery was a little broken, which imho was fine considering his weight/fall speed class. Know any other characters who die at 80% to Fox usmash but can't recover horizontally? *cough* Jiggs, Peach *cough*
  
• TONS of approaches, which makes sense. He's supposed to be fast with mixups.
• Spinshot has enough distance to start mixups and be used offensively.
• Great fair and nair.

3.0 Sonic - The Cons:

• Terrible damage. tap-SideB does 1-3%. Ticks of DownB aren't great, otherwise he needs neutral game reads. Seems fine and fair- Sonic is supposed to be fast with a lot of little hits.
  
• Bad throws, with the exception of a few chain grabs. None lead into kill moves, none lead into combos, none kill of themselves.
• Wavedash out of tap-SideB -> tap-SideB was crouch cancellable, especially noteworthy against space animals who can CC into shine.
• All other characters with "commitment" style horizontal specials (Rob, Fox/Falco, Wario, Ganondorf/Captain Falcon) lead with a hitbox. Sonic can easily be hit out of his specials. The exception was Squirtle, whose move was perhaps the most similar to Sonic's downB of those mentioned.
• Tiny hitboxes, huge hurt boxes. Anyone with a disjoint or tether grab can sit idle waiting for you shoot DownB, grab or smash you out of it. If you land the hit, turn around and dair (which they can avoid) you get the same amount of damage they get if they simply stand still and grab or smash you out of it. Only useable in niche situations, never as designed to be used.

3.5 Sonic - The (new) Pros:

• Still good against Wolf.
• Still lots of approaches.
• Good fair and nair.
• Slower so... easier to control, I guess?

3.5 Sonic - The (new) Cons:

• Far more bad matchups. Spacies, Sheik and other meleers better by omission from nerfs, most of his bad matchups have become very bad matchups.
  
• Combo game completely gone, except for the tilts, and they're not as good. 2-3 hit combos, nothing more, especially with an opponent knowledgeable of crouch cancelling. uair chains are rough, fair chains are still good, spinshot jc nair is still good, otherwise it's raw hits.
  
• Uair's disjoint gone- much harder to use.
• Horizontal recovery good, but not great. SideB requires commitment and is punishable. Spinshot not nearly as far. Stuck with predictable UpB that has a longer startup time.
  
• Possibility to flub HA and suicide if close to a ledge and no one in range or HA simply fails (which happens often)
• They took my black sonic and gave him stupid shoes. WHY!?

I think the biggest hurt came in the form of DownB nerfs, both spinshot nerfs, turn-around-hitbox nerfs and dair out of downB. I have no idea why they felt that was too overpowered. It's like they were still salty over 2.0 or they consulted Mew2King after his Wizzrobe fights.

 

[TKDbeast]

I don't think he got "nerfed the ***." I guess he did get nerfed, but they were well deserved and called for. I haven't played against real people yet, so I guess I can't talk.

 

[N810]

So far, I'm just having trouble recovering. I still think Sonic is a great character. I just think this build is pushing me to be a bit more creative with my combo game.

 

[The_Sir_Reginald]

Yeah, and on top of that, sonic has suuuper slow attacks. Fsmash is stupidly slow and endlaggy, dsmash is great but isnt a finisher (cc dsmash is amazing now) usmash is also very slow and laggy after. Utilt is quick (frame 7) but has terrible hitboxes now, dtilt is kinda fast (frame 9 I believe) but not that useful, ftilt is shorter and normal speed. Nair is super quick (only one of his attacks before frame 7) and is a good moves, but hurtbox is bigger than his hitbox. Fair is kinda slow, but its super strong and easy to space, bair is VERY slow, dair is dair lol.

Then his b attacks are just as fast, but we've all seen the complaints so I don't need to bring those up.

Getting in on any character with quick ground attacks is rough. Sure sonic moves fast, but his attacks are painfully slow. Hell ganondorf has faster options lol (his jab is nuts tho)

 

[RedLabel]

Truthfully, Everyone got nerfed out the ass, sonic was just one of the people hit worst. What people will slowly understand is what was nerfed isn't the be all and end all of sonic. He is still an outstanding character, and even his nerf recovery is among top 5 in the game. They have made it so it actually requires skill to get back, predicting getting hit, saving second jump, DI'ing properly, but his recovery is still very good. PMDT made sonic more skill based, and less of a mash to win character, where it was all about waiting for the opponent to whiff something then down-bing in. There are many more viable approaches now that end with similar or better results. Practice your Dash dancing, wave landing, wavedash grabbing, DA grabbing, And DA out of side B. These tools will help you, and I'm no expert.

 

[GabPR]

Yeah, and on top of that, sonic has suuuper slow attacks. Fsmash is stupidly slow and endlaggy, dsmash is great but isnt a finisher (cc dsmash is amazing now) usmash is also very slow and laggy after. Utilt is quick (frame 7) but has terrible hitboxes now, dtilt is kinda fast (frame 9 I believe) but not that useful, ftilt is shorter and normal speed. Nair is super quick (only one of his attacks before frame 7) and is a good moves, but hurtbox is bigger than his hitbox. Fair is kinda slow, but its super strong and easy to space, bair is VERY slow, dair is dair lol.

Then his b attacks are just as fast, but we've all seen the complaints so I don't need to bring those up.

Getting in on any character with quick ground attacks is rough. Sure sonic moves fast, but his attacks are painfully slow. Hell ganondorf has faster options lol (his jab is nuts tho)

Ty for listing the cons, but you forgot to add the pros.

 

[MWEX]

Quit complaining

 

[The_Sir_Reginald]

Ty for listing the cons, but you forgot to add the pros.

The only reason I didn't list the pros is because we've been discussing the pros for months. Nothing positive is new (other than the new world mechanics that feel great). Sonic has almost only negatives (as with most the cast) so why would we talk about old material, when there's brand new issues to deal with.

 

[Zatchiel]

When I read the title of this thread I read it as "Sonic got nerfed out the at ss."

 

[GabPR]

The only reason I didn't list the pros is because we've been discussing the pros for months. Nothing positive is new (other than the new world mechanics that feel great). Sonic has almost only negatives (as with most the cast) so why would we talk about old material, when there's brand new issues to deal with.

Almost only negatives? Are you Implying that Sonic is so bad he is not viable as a character? I can understand people being upset about the changes, hell I was too at the beginning. But after putting time into him in 3.5 he is still a great character compared to the rest of the cast and he has a lot of incredible setups, recovery, combos and edgeguarding/gimp potential.

He has a few weaknesses, but so do most characters, this forces people to explore new and creative ways to go around those weaknesses and actually think, react and experiment against different matchups. To say that we should regard only the negatives (which btw are not as exaggerated as you made them seem to be) and disregard the positives seems to me like an excuse to not learn the new Sonic and demand the PMDT to unnecessarily buff Sonic to 3.0 status again, which in a 3.5 environment is both not needed and would prove unhealthy to the game as a whole.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I'm uncertain about the changes to Sonic, but I will say that I find the special fall after homing attack fails to be pretty stupid. Couldn't they reduce it's value as a recovery by simply limiting you to doing it once per airtime? I don't main Sonic, but since Homing Attack doesn't seem to lock on reliably at times, that special fall seems to really discourage ever using it.

 

[GabPR]

I'm uncertain about the changes to Sonic, but I will say that I find the special fall after homing attack fails to be pretty stupid. Couldn't they reduce it's value as a recovery by simply limiting you to doing it once per airtime? I don't main Sonic, but since Homing Attack doesn't seem to lock on reliably at times, that special fall seems to really discourage ever using it.

I get where your coming from. Homing attack is harder to use and makes homing attack to be of more situational use. I think the PMDT was thinking that if they limited it by once per airtime, it would still make this move risk free and spamable. Aside from that its not all bad. You can see the range in debug mode so you know how far you can go for a combo with it and just avoid using it when a character is grabbing the ledge (ledge invincibility will make them untargetable) and against characters with invincible moves (Sheik up b).This will help you decide better when to use homing or not. But I gotta say, when knowing the risk involved in using it, hitting once does feel great and goes pretty good with combos, and even as a combo starter in the right percent with a tech chase if you pull it off :D.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I get where your coming from. Homing attack is harder to use and makes homing attack to be of more situational use. I think the PMDT was thinking that if they limited it by once per airtime, it would still make this move risk free and spamable. Aside from that its not all bad. You can see the range in debug mode so you know how far you can go for a combo with it and just avoid using it when a character is grabbing the ledge (ledge invincibility will make them untargetable) and against characters with invincible moves (Sheik up b).This will help you decide better when to use homing or not. But I gotta say, when knowing the risk involved in using it, hitting once does feel great and goes pretty good with combos, and even as a combo starter in the right percent with a tech chase if you pull it off :D.

Typically when I end up SDing with it, it's because someone has just moved behind me or just enough out of reach that I cannot home anymore and I go straight off the stage. It's pretty obnoxious when it does happen, but outside of situations like that, it's not too bad.

I kind of wonder if it was necessary to make the Homing Blast to go into special fall, since it has almost no range already, but eh. Maybe it was just something they couldn't separate, though the blast version doesn't strike me as the type to be that OP.

 

[GabPR]

Typically when I end up SDing with it, it's because someone has just moved behind me or just enough out of reach that I cannot home anymore and I go straight off the stage. It's pretty obnoxious when it does happen, but outside of situations like that, it's not too bad.

I kind of wonder if it was necessary to make the Homing Blast to go into special fall, since it has almost no range already, but eh. Maybe it was just something they couldn't separate, though the blast version doesn't strike me as the type to be that OP.

Another tip is that... lets say you are going to home attack someone and you are close to the ledge. What you can do is quickly tap to the direction of the center, and then use homing. If opponent becomes out of reach, instead of falling to your death, Sonic will home towards the last direction you input. Helpful when you are not certain it will hit or just to make sure.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Another tip is that... lets say you are going to home attack someone and you are close to the ledge. What you can do is quickly tap to the direction of the center, and then use homing. If opponent becomes out of reach, instead of falling to your death, Sonic will home towards the last direction you input. Helpful when you are not certain it will hit or just to make sure.

Hm, never thought of that. I'll keep that one in mind.

 

[The_Sir_Reginald]

Almost only negatives? Are you Implying that Sonic is so bad he is not viable as a character? I can understand people being upset about the changes, hell I was too at the beginning. But after putting time into him in 3.5 he is still a great character compared to the rest of the cast and he has a lot of incredible setups, recovery, combos and edgeguarding/gimp potential.

He has a few weaknesses, but so do most characters, this forces people to explore new and creative ways to go around those weaknesses and actually think, react and experiment against different matchups. To say that we should regard only the negatives (which btw are not as exaggerated as you made them seem to be) and disregard the positives seems to me like an excuse to not learn the new Sonic and demand the PMDT to unnecessarily buff Sonic to 3.0 status again, which in a 3.5 environment is both not needed and would prove unhealthy to the game as a whole.

Nah, I don't think I was super clear, sorry. I meant 3.5 only subtracted from sonic, there aren't any new good strategies to use, we just have to use the old good strategies. They are good, and sonic is still a good character, but what I was saying is that discussions have been had about his approaches (albeit probably not as in depth because before as wizzy would say "just roll"), and discussions are probably going to focus on what's new with him. And what's new is all negatives.

Hope that clears things up.

 

[TKDbeast]

Sonic is such a high skill cap character. It's hard to reach his full potential. I know that's true of almost every character, but with sonic, it is a whole new monster to tackle. This reminds me a bit of Zed from League of Legends. He's such a high skill cap character, so high that few have been able to get anywhere close. Riot, the company that owns League of Legends, nerfs him based on his potential, not average, performance across players.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

I didn't play much sonic is 3.0, I mained Lucario because I love fast combo based characters. I tried playing sonic in 3.5 and he seems really good. According to PMDT they did nerf his speed, but just a bit by adding a few frames to some of his moves.
His recovery barley got nerfed. I just Down-B and jump cancel into an Up- B.He has so many approach options and mixups in his attacks, I think he his a very versatile character. He just requires a little more time master.

 

[GabPR]

If people think Sanic is bad this early in the patch... how about scrolling to page 3 in Sonic page and look for the discussion thread called "Not feeling 2.5 Sonic". Its Hilarious and it proves a point that people CAN jump to conclusions too early.

 

[The_Sir_Reginald]

Honestly though, if you get rid of Sonic's sideb infinite, he wasn't that good. Watch videos of wizzys 2.5 sonic, if he isn't chaining sideb on the other player, he's mostly losing the neutral. He had a couple good things, but without the infinite he absolutely would not have been the monster he was.

 

[TKDbeast]

If people think Sanic is bad this early in the patch... how about scrolling to page 3 in Sonic page and look for the discussion thread called "Not feeling 2.5 Sonic". Its Hilarious and it proves a point that people CAN jump to conclusions too early.

For the lazy.

Best part was "He use to have potental for high tier now he doesn't."

 

[GabPR]

For the lazy.

Best part was "He use to have potental for high tier now he doesn't."

Seems familiar now doesnt it?

 

[FeintStep]

He is largely unusable now. I am questioning the wisdom of the devs myself at this point. He's not Jiggly, Ice Climbers or Olimar in 3.0 bad, but he's definitely high low-tier or low mid-tier now.

The problem was that the devs thought they were nerfing his recovery, but they didn't watch enough Sonic videos to realize much of his moves double as recovery AND offensive options. His recovery got nerfed, and inadvertently, his offense too.

I think the biggest hurt came in the form of DownB nerfs, both spinshot nerfs, turn-around-hitbox nerfs and dair out of downB. I have no idea why they felt that was too overpowered. It's like they were still salty over 2.0 or they consulted Mew2King after his Wizzrobe fights.

im dieing lol, this isnt a game where we roll around at the speed of sound bud, his movement options are incredible along with his tilts, jab, dsmash, fsmash, JC grab, and all of his aerials. A well designed characters special moves should only compliment the rest of its moveset. Take your finger off B for a couple minutes and youll see what i mean.

Edit: Forgot to mention dthrow and uthrow being insane for tech chasing into dair and that the devs knew exactly what they were changing, the changes were primarily made to remove the "lol spam b button" attitude

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Lol Sonic is sooo nice though

 

[SpiderMad]

Wheres Darky's opinion?

 

[Knight of the wind Ethil]

compared to every other pm sonic player i use his specials much less than his normals, and aerials and grabs. And while i hear people talking about nerfs to specials i felt most bothered by the nerfs to pretty much everything he has, except fair and his grabs and seemingly fsmash. That said I questioned why they would they nerf sonic so hard compared to others but after more time playing him sonic is starting to resemble a melee character much much more. And overall i think sonic had some of the most wild gameplay in PM. Is the PMDT trying to reel the cast back a bit and really make the game more similar to melee? sorry if I show little direction in my posts.

 

[The_Sir_Reginald]

I've said this earlier in the thread, but the problem isn't that I can't function without his B-moves, his movement is still amazing. The thing that's lacking is his 2nd frame attack that lead into follow ups. Sonic was similar to fox in a way that if he was being pressured to hard, you could mash down b (for both characters) as a means of a panic switch and if it connected, you were not only safe, but you had follow ups coming.

Now, Sonic isn't left with many fast options. Sure his utilt is pretty fast (7 frames) and same with d-tilt (7 frames, but considerable end lag). He has his nair which is super fast, but you have to consider 4 frames to jump, and he also doesn't have a quick fast fall, so shffl'ing isn't the best.

Most the time I find myself using fair wayyy too much because it's one of the safest attacks once you connect, many of his other attacks can be punished if you are really tight with your follow ups.

Even watching some higher tier sonic players, you can see the lack of quick/safe attack options. You'll see them approach with some attack, often land the attack, but be punished as a result. And if they get punished off stage it was very often a death because sonic's up b has to be one of the easiest recoveries to gimp.

 

[Slaudial]

If this is true then thank GOD. I absolutely despise this character. I'm almost convinced now that you cannot make Sonic a good character without creating a terribly designed abomination of garbage. It didn't work out well in PM and it didn't work out in Smash 4.

I've heard something along the lines of "3.0 was finishing the game, 3.5 was cutting the nonsense."

In that case I'm honestly surprised that Sonic just wasn't removed entirely from the game.

 

[FeintStep]

I've said this earlier in the thread, but the problem isn't that I can't function without his B-moves, his movement is still amazing. The thing that's lacking is his 2nd frame attack that lead into follow ups. Sonic was similar to fox in a way that if he was being pressured to hard, you could mash down b (for both characters) as a means of a panic switch and if it connected, you were not only safe, but you had follow ups coming.

Now, Sonic isn't left with many fast options. Sure his utilt is pretty fast (7 frames) and same with d-tilt (7 frames, but considerable end lag). He has his nair which is super fast, but you have to consider 4 frames to jump, and he also doesn't have a quick fast fall, so shffl'ing isn't the best.

Most the time I find myself using fair wayyy too much because it's one of the safest attacks once you connect, many of his other attacks can be punished if you are really tight with your follow ups.

Even watching some higher tier sonic players, you can see the lack of quick/safe attack options. You'll see them approach with some attack, often land the attack, but be punished as a result. And if they get punished off stage it was very often a death because sonic's up b has to be one of the easiest recoveries to gimp.

1. Dash attack comes out frame 2 and sends into tumble so hes not missing a frame 2 attack that leads to follow ups, hes just got it in a place where its not free anymore

2. His tilts are incredible they combo into themselves on most any character for upwards of 40-50% AND lead to a followup after that

3. His jumpsquat is 3 frames, Nair isnt his only aerial his fair and bair have great spacing on them for how fast he moves along with uair juggling the hell out of Fastfallers and killing floaties very quickly, his dair is incredible i honestly think its his best aerial, its 16 frames to Full hop>Double Jump>Dair l cancel from underneath a platform and get a hitbox out, the amount of tech chase that leads to especially if it continues to spike them is insane.

4. sonic has one of the best recoveries in the game id honestly say, between spin shot, side-b, homing attack, and up-b where he wants to recover too on stage is basically up to him and sweetspotting with up-b is always good...

If this is true then thank GOD. I absolutely despise this character. I'm almost convinced now that you cannot make Sonic a good character without creating a terribly designed abomination of garbage. It didn't work out well in PM and it didn't work out in Smash 4.

I've heard something along the lines of "3.0 was finishing the game, 3.5 was cutting the nonsense."

In that case I'm honestly surprised that Sonic just wasn't removed entirely from the game.

As for you, i can understand the hate on 3.0 sonic but get the **** out of the sonic boards if youre only here to talk ****

 

[DireDrop]

In his defense, Sonic WAS a poorly designed character until 3.5 rolled out (sorry PMDT). His moves invalidated stage position too much for position to matter, which makes the game much less interesting. Pre-3.5 PM got so boring I quit playing it.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

If this is true then thank GOD. I absolutely despise this character. I'm almost convinced now that you cannot make Sonic a good character without creating a terribly designed abomination of garbage. It didn't work out well in PM and it didn't work out in Smash 4.

I've heard something along the lines of "3.0 was finishing the game, 3.5 was cutting the nonsense."

In that case I'm honestly surprised that Sonic just wasn't removed entirely from the game.

LOL grow up. Honestly, hating on characters for brokenness is soo 3.0, and a little bit immature. The cast is actually fairly balanced now, including Sonic. He's still a top tier character thanks to his movement speed, long recovery, gimp ability, and excellent throws. Additionally, his approach is excellent, with many mix-ups and great speed.

That being said, he's still vulnerable to characters; he's relatively lightweight/floaty, his priority and hitboxes on spin moves are next to nothing (bar nair) and his recovery is still gimpable. He can have trouble with spacies, and other top tiers, as well as against some characters in the microgame with safe moves (this doesn't mean he straight-up loses the MU, it just means that other characters have ways to get around his options, ie Ness + Fair on the edge).

Actually, your post makes me wonder as well whether or not you play as a character who just doesn't do well against Sonic at all. And I apologize for what seems like blowing up on you, I'm just tired of all the polarized views on Sonic.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

In his defense, Sonic WAS a poorly designed character until 3.5 rolled out (sorry PMDT). His moves invalidated stage position too much for position to matter, which makes the game much less interesting. Pre-3.5 PM got so boring I quit playing it.

I agree with this. Many characters were poorly designed in 3.0, and I know the PMDT recognized this. Having characters that contradict some of the game's elements that make the game interesting, like stage control/position, movement options, limitations, etc. just takes the fun and challenge out of using a character.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

LOL grow up. Honestly, hating on characters for brokenness is soo 3.0, and a little bit immature. The cast is actually fairly balanced now, including Sonic. He's still a top tier character thanks to his movement speed, long recovery, gimp ability, and excellent throws. Additionally, his approach is excellent, with many mix-ups and great speed.

That being said, he's still vulnerable to characters; he's relatively lightweight/floaty, his priority and hitboxes on spin moves are next to nothing (bar nair) and his recovery is still gimpable. He can have trouble with spacies, and other top tiers, as well as against some characters in the microgame with safe moves (this doesn't mean he straight-up loses the MU, it just means that other characters have ways to get around his options, ie Ness + Fair on the edge).

Actually, your post makes me wonder as well whether or not you play as a character who just doesn't do well against Sonic at all. And I apologize for what seems like blowing up on you, a lot of people jump to conclusions without really understanding characters; I'm not innocent of doing it in the past either (I thought Ivy was nooby, for instance).

 

[DireDrop]

Did you just quote yourself with a slight edit at the end?

Edit: You can use the edit button to change your posts. That way you can avoid double posting, or even triple and unnecessary quote posting. Just be sure to mark that you've edited your post, like here.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Did you just quote yourself with a slight edit at the end?

Edit: You can use the edit button to change your posts. That way you can avoid double posting, or even triple and unnecessary quote posting. Just be sure to mark that you've edited your post, like here.

Lol, I know, I tried editing, then decided against it because it didn't matter so much, so I went to more options and it just went downhill from there .

 

[DireDrop]

I wondered if maybe you were going for some 3 Blue-Eyes reference with your triple post.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

@ DireDrop A shout-out to anyone who thinks Sonic DID get nerfed out the ass: what MUs do you guys think he struggles with? I'd like to know. Personally I think he's great, but there's a chance I'm missing something. Enlighten me.

Now that I've commented again, I can use Dragon's Mirror to bring out Five-Headed Dragon