Song of Time: Zelda's Changes in PM. 3.6 HYPE

[Reidlos Toof]

Essentially we still have the same ledge snapping utility as before, but now it takes more skill to execute properly. Farore's STILL ends early if it comes into contact with a wall, which pisses me off, and teleshorting still has too much endlag imo and doesn't provide as much utility as I'd like it to, but the fix to Din's Camera is all I absolutely needed from this patch. Honestly, I'd rather the boomerang effect just go away and die entirely. Just remove the return animation and let me put out another dins as soon as the first one detonates and I'll be perfectly happy. The detonating while it's returning is still janky as **** and seems like a very obvious blemish on an otherwise highly polished character.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Essentially we still have the same ledge snapping utility as before, but now it takes more skill to execute properly. Farore's STILL ends early if it comes into contact with a wall, which pisses me off...

It's actually a slight nerf, in addition to the difficulty of execution. With the autosnap, you grab ledge and are invincible on frame 1. With the telecancel, you don't grab until frame 2, so you're vulnerable to attacks on frame 1. It makes "ledge-sniping" less viable. You have to grab the ledge before they get there, so you don't get hit by any hitboxes

 

[Vitriform]

If you shorten in the air near the edge the cancel will reverse grab. There's like a 5ish frame window usually to cancel within ledge grab range. It's a lot like (the easier 3.6) canceling onto platforms actually. Play with it for a bit and you get a feel for when you're passing by the edge to cancel. I was able to do it consistently after a bit of practice.

Okay, that helps clarify things. I assumed that "not grabbing backwards while invisible" just meant I had to be facing the ledge while teleporting towards it to snap, but it seems I was mistaken in my interpretation of that change.

It's nice to know that the option to snap from wherever is still available, albeit more difficult now. I played with it for about a half hour and I'm starting to get it; I'm still terribly inconsistent, but at least I'm not SDing every 5 seconds (most of my flubs just end up being edge-cancelled teleports. I'm guessing it'll take a good month or two for me to become completely proficient with it.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

I did a bit of experimentation, however. Attempting the snap while facing the ledge still results in an SD.

EDIT: I might be misunderstanding somewhat. Please correct me if this is intended.

Are you talking about a situation where you would already be offstage such as recovering? If you are onstage and you face towards the center of the stage it still won't work because as soon as you begin traveling in teleport you will face the direction you are teleporting in. As Frozen and Magus already mentioned we can use the b cancel feature to still grab the ledge but it will be slightly slower, leave a very small window open of vulnerability, and more of a chance for user error. The small vulnerability will mean we will no longer be able to do things such as snipe the ledge from a ledge angled fire fox.

Okay, that helps clarify things. I assumed that "not grabbing backwards while invisible" just meant I had to be facing the ledge while teleporting towards it to snap, but it seems I was mistaken in my interpretation of that change.

Just think of it as that you need to be facing towards the center of the stage to get the auto-snap which can only be done from 90 degrees up or down and out from the stage (recovery situations).

 

[Justbngoode]

As Frozen and Magus already mentioned we can use the b cancel feature to still grab the ledge but it will be slightly slower, leave a very small window open of vulnerability, and more of a chance for user error. The small vulnerability will mean we will no longer be able to do things such as snipe the ledge from a ledge angled fire fox.

Actually with perfect timing it's snapping quicker than average.
These Farore's Wind changes are just what I was hoping for honestly, and I think it will remedy most of Zelda's current flaws. This should be a great update for us.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Actually with perfect timing it's snapping quicker than average.
These Farore's Wind changes are just what I was hoping for honestly, and I think it will remedy most of Zelda's current flaws. This should be a great update for us.

Oh I was just saying in terms of total frames from the startup of the teleport to when you actually are on the ledge the autosnap is slightly faster than what could be achieved with the telecancel method. I agree the rest of the changes for Farore's Wind are awesome. I was just trying to objectively compare the differences between the autosnap and the telecancel ledge grab methods.

 

[HalcyonDays]

If you shorten in the air near the edge the cancel will reverse grab. There's like a 5ish frame window usually to cancel within ledge grab range. It's a lot like (the easier 3.6) canceling onto platforms actually. Play with it for a bit and you get a feel for when you're passing by the edge to cancel. I was able to do it consistently after a bit of practice.

So, if I'm reading this right, it was designed so Zelda can't just auto-snap to the ledge from center stage, and she'll have to put more effort into timing the cancel if they want to teleport to the ledge from center stage, right?

Hm, that does make me feel a little sad, but at the same time, I'm finding I like the new tele-cancel. It may not be teledashing, but you can still act really quickly out of it, and it's much easier to teleport directly onto mid-air platforms than it was in 3.5.

 

[Miryafa]

Farore's STILL ends early if it comes into contact with a wall,

To clarify: this was never a glitch. Farore's Wind travels along a surface with the same vector speed it met the surface. If you're going up and hit below the edge of FD, you often don't have enough time/distance left in Farore's Wind to move you toward the edge. The glitch was that if you were holding up and next to a vertical wall, you wouldn't have any upward speed at all.

That said, it's annoying as all get-out.

With the telecancel, you don't grab until frame 2, so you're vulnerable to attacks on frame 1.

And more importantly, if you're trying to grab the edge before someone else, that time difference is critical, and usually means the difference between a successful edge-guard and an SD.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Essentially we still have the same ledge snapping utility as before, but now it takes more skill to execute properly. Farore's STILL ends early if it comes into contact with a wall, which pisses me off, and teleshorting still has too much endlag imo and doesn't provide as much utility as I'd like it to, but the fix to Din's Camera is all I absolutely needed from this patch. Honestly, I'd rather the boomerang effect just go away and die entirely. Just remove the return animation and let me put out another dins as soon as the first one detonates and I'll be perfectly happy. The detonating while it's returning is still janky as **** and seems like a very obvious blemish on an otherwise highly polished character.

The camera no longer tracks for din's when it is unlinked so that part is much better. We have found though that if you choose to relink the connection with din's when it is near the blast zones the camera will start to track the din's again. Since it is so far away the camera will immediately zoom out which some might find jarring.

 

[Kaeldiar]

The camera no longer tracks for din's when it is unlinked so that part is much better. We have found though that if you choose to relink the connection with din's when it is near the blast zones the camera will start to track the din's again. Since it is so far away the camera will immediately zoom out which some might find jarring.

File me under the category of "some." Overall, I am very much enjoying Zelda. Telesnap from stage being gone is something that is sad, but I can live with. There is a way to do it almost as well, and the other buffs to Teleport more than make up for that. The camera on Din's is honestly my major complaint...which says something good for her changes, I think! I feel that the camera just shouldn't track Din's. There's no way to do it without causing some weird camera thing that only distracts from the game

 

[Reidlos Toof]

The camera no longer tracks for din's when it is unlinked so that part is much better. We have found though that if you choose to relink the connection with din's when it is near the blast zones the camera will start to track the din's again. Since it is so far away the camera will immediately zoom out which some might find jarring.

Another compelling reason to just remove the boomerang effect altogether. It's causing so many problems, and it really isn't that good an effect in practice IMO.

 

[ZGE]

Another compelling reason to just remove the boomerang effect altogether. It's causing so many problems, and it really isn't that good an effect in practice IMO.

I'm happy about the camera thing, but as far as the "boomerang" utility I've actually started using it more to catch opponents off guard and try to link it into a kick/grab/up smash/whatever. It's more strategic IMO. But I liked super campy 3.02 mine Din's too.

 

[Vitriform]

Another compelling reason to just remove the boomerang effect altogether. It's causing so many problems, and it really isn't that good an effect in practice IMO.

I have to disagree about the boomerang effect; I think it's one of the best aspects of the current iteration of Din's Fire. You can stall the returning wisp so it interrupts your opponent's combos at a critical time. You can coordinate its return to lock your opponent in shieldstun when attempting risky shield pressure. You can have it orbit you, which helps both for intimidation purposes and as a way of maneuvering it precisely where it needs to be. You can use your movement to swing the Din in front of you as a shield against attacks. You can send it under the stage and surprise your opponent by making it hit from below.

I think all of this adds incredible depth and forces you to think critically about both your placement and your movement and how it will affect the motion of the Din's Fire.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Another compelling reason to just remove the boomerang effect altogether. it really isn't that good an effect in practice IMO.

I disagree. Boomerang for best assist.

 

[ZGE]

It's just that (and this may be indicative of my competition/people knowing or not knowing Zelda matchup) most people are completely unaware of a returning Din's and they'll get hit by it. Even if they dodge/shield, they're forced to do something that limits their options that you can, for the most part, take advantage of. Plus what Vitriform said.

 

[Karmaic Avidity]

Super crucial discovery which some might find infuriating:

Getting hit with strong elemental attacks (Lightning Kicks, anything with ph1r3, Ganon's fsmash, etc) leaves you with a smoking effect trailing you. When Zelda gets hit by these, the effect follows her no matter what, meaning that if you teleport while these particles are around you, they will follow you and reveal your teleport path.

This is extremely detrimental to her recovery, as it leaves her extremely predictable while under this effect.

For now, I want to say this is unintended, but it might as well be given the "design choices" the DT has chosen to adopt.

My tips for now:

• When you are hit with a strong attack, take note of whether or not you're smoking.
• If you are, do not teleport right away. Try to teleport closer to the stage to stall out the particle timer.
• If you aren't, recover as normal.

I would really like the DT to address this.

 

[HalcyonDays]

So after spending a bit more time practicing ledge sniping via telecancels from the middle of the stage, I've decided that it's just become too impractical for my tastes.

I've gotten a somewhat consistent success rate with it, but the few frames of difference between snapping to the ledge VS. just outright suicide has really discouraged me from ever actually using it all that much anymore. Too much high risk for low reward is what I'm seeing here. Telesniping has probably, in my opinion, become her most difficult AT to perform consistently.

Maybe I'm doing the inputs incorrectly or something, but for now, this kind of has me feeling a little 'bleh' about that aspect of 3.6 Zelda.

 

[Miryafa]

Maybe I'm doing the inputs incorrectly or something, but for now, this kind of has me feeling a little 'bleh' about that aspect of 3.6 Zelda.

This is Zelda. If you have perfect inputs, she's a A-/B+ tier character. If not, she's D or worse.

This is why removing the telesnap makes no sense to me.

if you teleport while these particles are around you, they will follow you and reveal your teleport path.

I'm with 'some' here.

 

[Karmaic Avidity]

This is Zelda. If you have perfect inputs, she's a A-/B+ tier character. If not, she's D or worse.

No. Zelda isn't low-high or high-mid even with perfect inputs. She's basically the middle of the cast in terms of power.

 

[HalcyonDays]

This is Zelda. If you have perfect inputs, she's a A-/B+ tier character. If not, she's D or worse.

This is why removing the telesnap makes no sense to me.

The nature of your comment makes it hard to tell if you're for or against my opinion, but I can agree with the removal of the telesnap making things dangerously difficult to pull off for something that doesn't even give 'that' much advantage, IMO.

The nature of her telecancel in itself isn't nearly as intuitive as other character ATs are.

Without visual cues as to 'when' to telecancel (which, if visuals were added, could be detrimental as we aren't really 'invisible' anymore), Zelda players just have to 'feel' when it's the right time to input the cancel. No other character that I can think of at the moment has anything similar (which is probably a good thing, I wouldn't want this sort of thing to become commonplace) and it just feels really weird.

Even more so when you realize that you must practice this new method on each and every competitive stage, from multiple angles and distances, with different shaped ledges. Not to mention, in a high-stakes match, this becomes even more difficult to consistently perform in comparison to other character ATs.

The removal of her ledge telesnap is, at least to me, probably her most notable movement nerf. It's helped somewhat by easier platform telesnapping, but if possible I'd have liked to keep her previous telesnap.

Oh well.

 

[Vitriform]

The nature of your comment makes it hard to tell if you're for or against my opinion, but I can agree with the removal of the telesnap making things dangerously difficult to pull off for something that doesn't even give 'that' much advantage, IMO.

The nature of her telecancel in itself isn't nearly as intuitive as other character ATs are.

Without visual cues as to 'when' to telecancel (which, if visuals were added, could be detrimental as we aren't really 'invisible' anymore), Zelda players just have to 'feel' when it's the right time to input the cancel. No other character that I can think of at the moment has anything similar (which is probably a good thing, I wouldn't want this sort of thing to become commonplace) and it just feels really weird.

Even more so when you realize that you must practice this new method on each and every competitive stage. Not to mention, in a high-stakes match, this becomes even more difficult to consistently perform in comparison to other character ATs.

The removal of her ledge telesnap is, at least to me, probably her most notable movement nerf. It's helped somewhat by easier platform telesnapping, but if possible I'd have liked to keep her previous telesnap.

Oh well.

Yeah, that change in particular isn't hugely intuitive, but I don't see it as that big an issue. I sat down and practiced it for a good hour and I can get it about 2/3 of the time. I expect that success rate will only improve as I practice over the next few weeks.

 

[noobftw]

Yeah the telesnapping nerf was pretty sad. But at least other characters were hit along with her so it's not a direct nerf. I think I'm going to practice ledge cancel teleport into edgegrab and see if that works. If not I might just start do back air waveland onto ledge since that's pretty fast as well. Since we aren't as fast throwing din's to cover ledge options might be the better option now rather than just suicide off. I haven't practice the telecancel edgegrab yet but seems too tedious since it involves multiple lengths and angles as well. I'm thinking grounded teleport to PC walk is a thing to consider or edge canceling it.

 

[Miryafa]

The nature of your comment makes it hard to tell if you're for or against my opinion,

Neither, just commiserating how Zelda requires a lot of practice to be mediocre.

But at least other characters were hit along with her

Except Falco (unchanged), Falcon (buffed except side-B), Diddy (buffed), Ike (buffed and slight nerf), Samus (buffed), and Yoshi (mixed, but significant recovery buff); who are all at the top of StrongBad's tier list.

 

[noobftw]

Oh I'm talking about for the telesnap being taken out. Mewtwo and Sheik had theirs taken out as well.
In terms of nerfs falco is okay. Falcon was changed (they fixed his broken grab release points so he doesn't have dthrow knee at 80% on a lot of the cast)
3.6 is looking good. And I look forward to practicing and playing Zelda.

 

[HalcyonDays]

Yeah, that change in particular isn't hugely intuitive, but I don't see it as that big an issue. I sat down and practiced it for a good hour and I can get it about 2/3 of the time. I expect that success rate will only improve as I practice over the next few weeks.

What about the last 1/3rd of the time? Doesn't that mean you potentially SD every 1 out of 3 attempts?

Anyways, I'll just end up practicing this even though I'm not really happy with it at all. I'm already steeling my mind to dealing with all the SDs that are bound to happen with this new requirement.

 

[Vitriform]

What about the last 1/3rd of the time? Doesn't that mean you potentially SD every 1 out of 3 attempts?

Anyways, I'll just end up practicing this even though I'm not really happy with it at all. I'm already steeling my mind to dealing with all the SDs that are bound to happen with this new requirement.

No, not SDs most of the time. I just end up edge cancelling is all. Besides, more practice will yield more consistency.

 

[Getsafe]

and Yoshi (mixed, but significant recovery buff)

Obviously you don't play Yoshi. His recovery got #rekt.
Aerial egg roll does basically nothing now and his weight was reduced which means his armor is broken sooner. In the face of all that, not getting footstooled isn't a buff. Just a slightly better nerf

Also Ike's side b changes are actually a nerf believe it or not. It used to hella cheesy combo, which it no longer does. Totally called for, but definitely a nerf

 

[Miryafa]

Obviously you don't play Yoshi. His recovery got #rekt.
Aerial egg roll does basically nothing now and his weight was reduced which means his armor is broken sooner. In the face of all that, not getting footstooled isn't a buff. Just a slightly better nerf

Also Ike's side b changes are actually a nerf believe it or not. It used to hella cheesy combo, which it no longer does. Totally called for, but definitely a nerf

True, I don't play either of those characters. I've heard Yoshi was bad because he could be footstooled, and only saw that fix without knowing the other stuff. I saw Ike get a damage increase(/decrease? number and text disagree in the changelog) and double the amount of time he could hold it, for 2-4x more damage (excluding the OHKO).

[/off-topic]

 

[Strong Badam]

Ike's changes are objective nerfs; it takes longer for him to power up his SideB (in terms of KB), it's more CCable, and has more endlag.
Diddy isn't buffed either. More of a net equal.
Falcon is also nerfed. U-throw worse, sideb is a meteor, Downb quake hitbox doesn't hit aerial opponents... no buffs to my knowledge in there.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Another compelling reason to just remove the boomerang effect altogether. It's causing so many problems, and it really isn't that good an effect in practice IMO.

That would be one possible solution. Having the camera not track at all could be another potential alternative although I realize that could present a different set of potential problems.

 

[Miryafa]

By the way, what does it mean that Farore's Wind cancel can be "reversed"? How do you reverse it?

 

[Kaeldiar]

By the way, what does it mean that Farore's Wind cancel can be "reversed"? How do you reverse it?

With Ground to Ground teleport, you can change the direction you face at the end by holding that direction as you come out of it. Doing a side-b input for the shorten has worked pretty well for me

 

[Luis Alonso]

Well guys, better get to the lab and start practicing your Karma Drops, because Auto-snapping from the stage is now gone!

...Not that I really noticed it...baka...

Also, reversing the walk on grounded telecancels is SO MUCH FUN! I love mixing up my approach with the telecancel now! I'm have a ball with 3.6 Zeldo. Anyone else?

 

[Vitriform]

Well guys, better get to the lab and start practicing your Karma Drops, because Auto-snapping from the stage is now gone!

...Not that I really noticed it...baka...

Also, reversing the walk on grounded telecancels is SO MUCH FUN! I love mixing up my approach with the telecancel now! I'm have a ball with 3.6 Zeldo. Anyone else?

I played a bunch of friendlies last night and had no issues sniping the ledge from people. I haven't checked in debug mode, but I think you can still maintain full invincibility if you shorten correctly from a short-hopped teleport.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

I played a bunch of friendlies last night and had no issues sniping the ledge from people. I haven't checked in debug mode, but I think you can still maintain full invincibility if you shorten correctly from a short-hopped teleport.

You can get pretty close. We were doing some testing with that and found that there will be one frame of vulnerability which is still pretty good.

 

[BlackMamba]

I'm loving the changes to Zelda in this patch, barring telesnapping, Farore's is a bunch better now. And on that subject, can't we hide RAR -> snap? I'll have to lab it up but I feel like that should work as an alternative to canceling. Also up air buff was surprising (unnecessary? lol) but is cool :D I was actually considering dropping her to a secondary but this patch may have convinced me to keep fighting the good fight.

 

[Kaeldiar]

I'm loving the changes to Zelda in this patch, barring telesnapping, Farore's is a bunch better now. And on that subject, can't we hide RAR -> snap? I'll have to lab it up but I feel like that should work as an alternative to canceling. Also up air buff was surprising (unnecessary? lol) but is cool :D I was actually considering dropping her to a secondary but this patch may have convinced me to keep fighting the good fight.

You can't RAR snap. Zelda faces the direction she teleports. Even if you're facing left when you teleport, and you teleport right, she turns around while invisible, so that she's facing right afterwards. The Zelda Skype labbed telesnap alternatives EXTENSIVELY after 3.6 dropped, so fortunately, most of these tricks have already been tested by a handful of people. We were actually in the middle of a call when it happened...

 

[Getsafe]

I'm able to teleport directly to the ledge without canceling with no problem? 3.6

Does it make a difference if it's done from a platform?

 

[WhiteLightnin]

I'm able to teleport directly to the ledge without canceling with no problem? 3.6

Does it make a difference if it's done from a platform?

That's strange. No it should not make a difference. You can do it at max range, but then the hitbox comes out. If you are approaching from off stage (or 90 degrees facing the ledge), it will still work but from onstage you should either need to telecancel, approach at max range, or telecancel on stage pc drop (Karma Drop) it.

 

[Getsafe]

My mistake, hitbox is coming out