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Something new, something useless, something else

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
Dunno if anybody else has noticed this. You can start aerial needles on the ground as you run off an edge/platform. Not a super big deal, but it does let you get them out a little quicker as you can basically throw the first needle in the first frame or two of being airborne. so it might have niche uses. So long as you go off the edge during the start-up of the throw before the first needle comes out, this'll work. If you're in a full run it's very easy, you can just release the stick and press B to cancel run stop into the special, something that wasn't present in Melee, even if the ability to slide of edges with needles had been. I haven't actually checked if you can go into needle charge instead by doing this.
You can also edge cancel a single thrown grounded needle in the same manner, but with earlier timing. I've only managed to do it once, the timing is incredibly strict and might be worse than 1 frame window (meaning it would based on your spacing as you run at the edge). But it's an interesting tidbit if not very useful.
Also, idk if this was in Melee, but needle canceling right before you land reduces your landing lag to 0. Basically an improved way to do a full distance tomahawk.
 
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_DarkLava

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
29
Also, idk if this was in Melee, but needle canceling right before you land reduces your landing lag to 0. Basically an improved way to do a full distance tomahawk.
Nice find. I'll add it to my repertoire.

Also does dashing immediately after you land remove all landing lag (Isai drop right?)? Would just dashing into a JC grab after you land produce the same results?
 
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DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
When you empty land no matter what there's a 30-something animation that you can interrupt after 4 frames (or 5-6 for a few characters). Dashing after doesn't remove those first 4 frames you can't interrupt. But if you land during certain animations, they transition directly to stand, or into the last frame of their grounded ending animation, making the landing lag 0 or 1 frames. isai drop would be landing on a platform, and for the whole 30+ frame animation you can't drop through the platform unless you do something to interrupt the landing after those first 4 frames. iirc isai dropping is walking briefly then dropping through? Shield dropping is the same thing, but you interrupt with a shield then fall through. But what I described doesn't have anything to do with platforms really, more to do with any time you land
 

Journal

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 21, 2015
Messages
126
Would you say the implication here is that we should be BL-canceling instead of just L canceling? And could this make for shield pressure with as good frames as Falco or fox?
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
no lol that's not what it is
you have to start the needle charging animation then end it, you can't do that during an aerial
it would be strictly for purposes for empty landing only.

Fox and falco are good at pressuring because of shines, not because of aerials. Lots of characters have aerials that can be reliably like 0, -1, -2, or even positive on shield, but the follow-ups don't lead into another of the same instantly, into a grab, or into more aerials like spacies' shines do. Even if sheik could shorten the landing lag on her aerials further, it'd just mean aerial->jab might be a true block string, but she wouldn't get anything else out of it
 
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RedEyesWhiteSwaggin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
94
Also, idk if this was in Melee, but needle canceling right before you land reduces your landing lag to 0. Basically an improved way to do a full distance tomahawk.
Do you mean it negates the 4 frame empty landing lag? Also what setup are you talking about with a tomahawk? Wouldn't the needle cancel stop your momentum unless you like wave bounced it? Also does this apply no matter when you needle cancel during your jump?
 

bubbaking

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
6,895
Location
Baldwin, NY, USA or Alexandria, VA, USA (Pick one)
Yes, that's what he's saying. Lolz, he's talking about any tomahawk situation - anything involving empty hop: empty hop into tilt/jab/grab, etc. Idk about needles cancelling momentum (although I don't think it does completely because RNCs are how I usually ledgehog with Sheik), but Sheik already has bad aerial speed to begin with. Most tomahawks involve a sheik that is already practically on top of her opponent. She can't do far-reaching tomahawks like the spacees, Falcon, etc. This needle tech would only serve to make her already present tomahawk abilities even better, and I'd think it would be even harder to react to because there wouldn't be any crouch animation for Sheik landing. Also, he said you have to cancel right before you hit the ground, lolz.
 

InfinityCollision

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
1,245
Also, idk if this was in Melee, but needle canceling right before you land reduces your landing lag to 0. Basically an improved way to do a full distance tomahawk.
Mewtwo and Lucario have this as well. Probably every character with a charge cancel. Getting the timing just right puts you straight into stand (iirc once the animation is actionable but not fully completed?), but even if you're a little early it can cut your landing lag by overriding the normal landing animation.
 
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QUBiX

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
44
Location
CenCal, CA
I had set a lvl 9 fox to run in the training mode to practice my rush down on battlefield, and had found the lagless trick from needle canceling to be pretty good for platform tech chases from up throw and pursuing the opponent on the ground after knocking them off the platform.

I also found it easier to drop through platforms by canceling a grounded needle charge with Z and rolling the control stick :GCR:,:GCDR:,:GCD:.(forward,down+forward,down) than doing a shield drop. I was able to consistently mash the motion from this technique unlike the stricter angle from a shield drop. I wonder what's the cause of it.

EDIT: I also noticed falling towards a platform and needle canceling the landing lag allows for an easy plat drop too. it was the same leniency as the grounded needle charge cancel plat drops.
 
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