Some Yoshi Information

[Kimimaru]

Oh, I actually didn't know that; thanks!

 

[Kimimaru]

Sorry for the double post, but I was rewatching some of my matches and noticed this (at around 6 minutes and 29 seconds):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM1ZSl7BtGU&t=6m28s

I somehow got out of shield after the roll exceptionally quick and performed a U-smash. It looked as if I cancelled the getting OOS animation like how it'd look if you jumped out of shield. I think it may be worth looking into.

EDIT: Never mind, this was just me not holding shield after the roll, which normally cancels the "getting OOS" animation.

 

[Sashimi]

In hindsight, I find it kind of silly that I'd call it lag when you only have to wait 3 frames before you can jump-cancel shine...

Edit: Changed [Shine lag] to [Wait] so there's no further confusion.

The roll is, as you suspected, just not holding shield at the end of the roll.

Related is something that kind of bugs me about Yoshi's powershield: Where most characters can cancel their unshielding animation after a powershield by interrupting it with an attack, Yoshi is unable to do this. He can only cancel it with a spotdoge.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Just wanted to post and say that this thread is freakin awesome! Good job man! <3

 

[Tranquility]

OMG thank you so much for this, been trying to find guides on how to do some of this stuff.

 

[OninO]

This thread is insane. This is like picking up a text book but it's one I actually want to read! Thanks dude! Now to download the 20xx Hack pack and get practising.

 

[DJLO]

the info on parrying was incredibly helpful, thanks

 

[hectohertz]

this is so cool

 

[SheerMadness]

So explain DJC nairs on shield to me.

You have a +1 frame advantage but the opponent has 9 frames to punish you? I don't understand...

If you DJC nair on shield is there enough shieldstun to escape harm free? Is the 9 frames to punish assuming you do another DJC on their shield?

Sorry I've got no experience with AR and frame advantages and stuff.

 

[Sashimi]

+1 means you can act one frame before your opponent. It takes 10 frames for a perfect DJC Nair, so if you do another one, your opponent has 9 frames to act before the next Nair hits.

 

[itsbme]

Green Acceleration Region

I posted this some time ago, but maybe still good to know.

 

[knightpraetor]

one thing i've been curious about is how many frames does it take yoshi to dash out of fox's shield grab range. if you're +1 on shield after your djc nair, can you actually safely dash away before the grab, or are my opponents just being slow?

 

[Sashimi]

Green Acceleration Region

I posted this some time ago, but maybe still good to know.

Thanks. I didn't put this into my post since I figured it's already covered on smashboards and youtube, but I might add a section for it eventually.

@ knightpraetor

There are a lot of factors that can change that number:
- spacing
- shield DI
- degree of full vs light shielding

With the worst spacing you could have, and no shield DI, it takes about 6 frames (incuding pivot frame) to dash out of range of the grab. You don't quite have to be frame perfect for this. If your spacing is better or if your opponent is light shielding, it will be easier, and if your opponent is using shield DI, it will be tougher.

 

[Nogzor'z]

The kind of information that I love seeing, reading, thinking about, and implementing.
Kudos, Perhaps. awesome stuff

 

[ιota [UPSB]]

@ Sashimi

This is like the thread of my dreams, as a dude picking up Yoshi recently that likes to mess around randomly in solo practice and focus too much on hard/miscellaneous tech :3

I'm curious to know if a couple of parry-related things have been discovered and/or played around with before, they seem pretty nifty to me, and I'd be interested also to hear your thoughts on how situational/useful they are ^^

(1) Ledge cancel parrying. If you hold shield as you slide off a ledge, and you're not moving too fast, you can parry as you slide off, due to ledge cancelling the rest of the shielding animation. This means that nearly any time you waveland forward across the majority of a platform, you can basically toss in a parry for free as you come off the end of it. You can do this while wavelanding backward as well, but I think you may need to be moving slower than necessary for the forward one, and the caveat with this one is that you will be put into a pushoff tumble afterward, or whatever that's called. You can just cancel that with a fastfall though, so while you have limited options after a backward waveland parry, it should still be worth doing depending on the situation...if you're wavelanding backward from the center of the platform and plan on landing or tossing out an egg for example, I feel like there's almost no reason not to do it. Also, you can do this with either a hard or a light shield from what I can tell, just by holding either after you waveland, and the light shield way feels less finicky, at least to me, and not really prone to cause you to get caught on the end of the platform in shield at all. Plus, if you go slowly enough, you could also allow the actual shield to come out for the first couple of frames too before sliding off, so even a flub would just become a typical defensive lightshield to get off the platform if you get hit during this time. This also means that if you do the standard wavedash edgehog, you can parry just as you're falling off the ledge, so perhaps this could be a reasonable edgeguard for some characters after using eggs to force low recovery? If there were a way to get the ledgecancel parry thing to happen while doing continuous DJ Wavelands, that would be really sweet, but I'm not sure if it's possible to get an angle that makes you do them slowly enough to have it work, I would like to see if it's possible though.

(2) Light shield drop parrying. If you light shield drop to get down from platforms (which is the fastest way anyway afaik, whether you did an aerial or just for plain movement), rather than having the light shield flicker like it would for other characters, you'll get the parry invincibility. Something to note though, is that I think the quickest timing either results in no parry frames at all (not sure about this, but it seems like sometimes after aerials it doesn't actually come out, you just drop through immediately before it happens?), or just the first frame of the parry.

I haven't really gotten a chance to test either of these out in debug mode to count frames or record some gifs or anything, but I figure this kind of thing should be known by now anyway, right? Even so, thoughts on usage at the least? :D

 

[Sashimi]

Iota (can't tag you because I have no idea how to type your name )

1) Ledge cancel parrying, as you call it, is known and probably done by some players even if they don't notice it. aMSa has a video on youtube showing it. It's very neat, and I try to be aware of when I'm doing it. For anyone else reading this: If your wavelands aren't getting the distance you think they should be (especially if they're stopping at the edge of the platform) you should be holding shield longer. The beginning of our shielding animation carries the wavelanding momentum and prevents you from cancelling it with your teetering animation (like taunt cancelling in N64, except it's your waveland being cancelled on the edge), and as Iota and aMSa have shown, gives you free invincibility frames just before you leave the platform.

The tumble state that happens afterwards is a result of falling off a platform while in shield. There seem to be two different versions of this state (have not done the frame data on this yet, so this is speculation - I will post something when I have tested it). The first happens when you leave the platform backwards during your preshielding animation, and looks just like tumble, except it cannot be teched and you can jump out of it whenever you want. I have not tested if other actions (attacking etc) can cancel it. The second happens when you leave the platform backwards while in your shield, and cannot be teched or cancelled with your double jump. I was not aware that you could cancel this with a fastfall, thanks!

To see the difference between these two "false tumble" animations, slide backwards the length of a platform on Yoshi's Story while holding shield, and then do the same on Battlefield. You should be able to jump out of the animation on Yoshi's Story, but not Battlefield. Thank you for pointing out the fastfall trick!

I've never thought about using it in edgehogging situations because we have a much faster option than wavedash back (DJ ledgehog), and that option even gives us knockback armour before we grab the ledge, so the parry is almost unnecessary. If you can time the parry consistently to block their recovery, that would probably be super awesome, though.

2) Dropping normally from a platform takes 4 frames before you are airborne, and cannot be done immediately from anything that autocancels (you must Isai drop or Shai drop to get around this), while shield dropping allows you to immediately drop through the frame you leave your shield. I have not done the frame data on this (will post when I do), but I am pretty sure you can shield drop out of a pre-shield, so in theory it could be faster than just dropping through the platform after a normal aerial. For anything that autocancels, Shai dropping will be faster. This is assuming:
- You can shield for one frame and then drop through the platform with a frame-perfect shield drop
- Shai drops do not offer any benefit after landing with a normal aerial (no autocancel)

If both of these are true, then a "light shield drop parry" would indeed be the fastest way down for Yoshi.

Some thoughts:
- The normal downside of light shield parrying (not jump-cancellable) isn't a problem since you're shield dropping anyway.
- Light shielding has no powershield, so even if you were late on the shield drop, you'd get as many as 6 full frames of invincibility that could not be outprioritized by our powershield (which, if activated in this situation, would probably mess up the shield drop due to hitlag). However, you're doing the shield drop frame perfect, the powershield wouldn't be a problem anyway since it isn't active until frame 3.
- Light shield parrying would unfortunately prevent you from reflecting anything before the shield drop, but since you're on a platform and you're invincible during this time anyway, I don't see this as much of a problem.

Very neat! I will test the things I mentioned and post again.

 

[tauKhan]

- Shai drops do not offer any benefit after landing with a normal aerial (no autocancel)

You can buffer shai drop during the aerial landing lag and be immediately airborne (or maybe there's 1 frame of shield), and thus you'll be airborne faster than if you regular drop.

 

[Sashimi]

You can buffer shai drop during the aerial landing lag and be immediately airborne (or maybe there's 1 frame of shield), and thus you'll be airborne faster than if you regular drop.

Went back and checked this after I made my post. You are right but the perfect Shai drop apparently has one shielding frame before the drop happens, so it ends up being the same as doing a frame perfect shield drop. Just different inputs, and I'm guessing Shai dropping is probably easier, haha.

Got my info on Shai dropping here.

 

[ιota [UPSB]]

Yeah sorry about the name, I should probably change that to a regular I. At the moment that first letter is the greek letter iota, just a lowercase i without the dot.

Also, awesome, thanks for the info! And you're probably right about the edgeguarding, although on that note, I think it would be really good to do something like wavedash forward and ledgecancel a parry, then do the regular fastfall DJ grab, since this way, you're still getting the speed and DJ armor of the standard yoshi ledgeguard, but also throwing in a parry at the start cause why not (probably faster than just running off the end of the ledge too, if you perfect waveland from far away or something?) ^^

The way I light shield drop from platforms is to just press down and then light shield riiiiight after, actually. It sounds like it shouldn't work, but it actually does, so long as you do it quickly enough that you light shield before you've actually dropped under the platform. Doing them like this with Falcon (my main, actually) shows noticeable improvement in speed after aerials compared to regular drops or Isai drops or something. And it's also soooooo free to do, really you just basically tap light shield any time you drop down, and ideally the light shield doesn't even really show up cause you drop down in preshield (I think, at least). Actually, if you watch Gravy's Falcon, I believe that's how he drops down from ledges, and I guess partly what makes him so speedy heh

 

[tauKhan]

The way I light shield drop from platforms is to just press down and then light shield riiiiight after, actually. It sounds like it shouldn't work, but it actually does

That's exactly one of the shai drop methods, I do that too. Iirc you need to press down and then shield on frame 4 or 5.

 

[ιota [UPSB]]

Oh okay xD Well then that shai drop method, or maybe Shai dropping in general, is really just the same thing as the soonest possible shield/lightshield drop you could do right? Then there isn't ever a time where you wouldn't want to Shai drop right? And I guess the only thing you miiight want to vary when doing it with Yoshi is the timing (can't you do imperfect Shai drops and have the preshield animation stay out longer than just one frame, thus getting maybe 2+ frames of parry? Or would you have to actually do lightshield then quickly press down to make it stay out longer than a frame?)

 

[tauKhan]

can't you do imperfect Shai drops and have the preshield animation stay out longer than just one frame, thus getting maybe 2+ frames of parry? Or would you have to actually do lightshield then quickly press down to make it stay out longer than a frame?

No you can't. If you press shield earlier than frame 4 after inputting down, you'll spot dodge, and if you press it later than frame 5 nothing happens. When you press the shield on frame 4, you'll drop frame 5, and if you shield on frame 5 you drop on frame 6. The shai drops always result in immediate drops, so you can't use them to get parry invincibility. If you want to be invincible before the drop, you should just regular shield drop, which conveniently happens usually on frame 5-6 of the shield animation or later.

 

[ιota [UPSB]]

Ah okay, but sometimes when I do them with falcon for example, the preshield animation shows. Is it not actually active during that time and still instant anyway?

 

[tauKhan]

There'll always be 1 frame of preshield.

 

[Kimimaru]

Would you mind putting up the frame data for Yoshi's knockdown options (getup attack, tech roll, etc.)? The GIFs are unfortunately not on the frame data thread.

 

[Sashimi]

Done @ Kimimaru . It's in the section "hitbox properties"

 

[ιota [UPSB]]

Oh btw @ Sashimi , you mentioned a little while ago that there should be some info on wavelanding out of doublejumps, something about the properties that allow for perfectly horizontal/perfect wavelands every time or something, but I've read all of the main post and don't see it there. If you get around to it sometime, could you provide more info/data on this? ^^

 

[Sashimi]

Oh btw @ Sashimi , you mentioned a little while ago that there should be some info on wavelanding out of doublejumps, something about the properties that allow for perfectly horizontal/perfect wavelands every time or something, but I've read all of the main post and don't see it there. If you get around to it sometime, could you provide more info/data on this? ^^

I'm not quite sure where to put it yet, and I'm also not sure how much I'm going to talk about it. For now:

Spoiler

Melee uses four diamond-shaped boxes to determine collision with floors, walls etc. These are called ECBs (environment collision boxes). The picture below is the first frame of Yoshi's air dodge (no direction was used).

The blue one represents your character's position on the previous frame, while the light orange one represents your character's position on the current frame. As you can see, Yoshi's ECB moves considerably on the first frame of his air dodge. This only happens when you air dodge during the rising part of Yoshi's double jump (frames 9~50something).

This makes the window for Yoshi's perfect (straight left or right) wavelands very large, where other characters need to use a specific part of their double jump animation to achieve a perfect waveland.

Edit: This kind of ECB movement is also what makes aerial interrupts and double jump lands work, if you're wondering.

As far as getting the optimal waveland goes, here are some things to remember:
- use your DJ and air dodge straight left or right
- hold shield after the landing lag from the waveland is done to make sure you slide off the platform
- fastfalling after the waveland helps make your movement much faster
- don't forget to use regular wavelands too (diagonal air dodge for these), especially right after coming down from the top platform to a side platform

 

[ιota [UPSB]]

Awesome, that's everything I wanted to know about it pretty much, thanks dude!

 

[Kimimaru]

- hold shield after the landing lag from the waveland is done to make sure you slide off the platform

I actually let go of shield as soon as possible so I don't accidentally tumble off the platform if I waveland backwards. I have no trouble sliding off the platform if I hold the direction I'm going while wavelanding.

 

[ιota [UPSB]]

Yeah, I wouldn't hold it when wavelanding backwards generally. You could always fastfall to cancel the falldown from the tumble, but that's not usually desirable anyway. I see no reason not to do it when wavelanding forward off of them though, since it'll just help prevent getting stuck in certain situations, and it may give you a few parry frames for free depending on if the shield ends up coming out and for how long, so it seems fine to me to use in the forward direction?

EDIT: Just fyi, you should actually get one parry frame when you Shai drop using any of the methods. I recorded a frame-by-frame of one from a standstill: http://gfycat.com/AnguishedWhisperedAnkole
(Not exactly useful of course, getting the regular 1-4 frames from regular shield drops would be better for using it intentionally, but it's there...so Shai drop after double jump lands to dashes, or platform movement in general, and maybe you'll win the parry lottery? :3)

 

[Purpletuce]

I have a request... can you test how tight of a window Yoshi has for parrying Peach's Dsmash if all he does is jump straight up? I figure if you know Peach is going to Dsmash, and you could parry -> just a plain jump, you'll be able to time your fall to land a solid fair. I don't really get any Peach practice at all, so it is hard for me to try it out. Also, what do other Yoshis do to punish her Dsmash on your shield? A few times I've gotten slight lightshield so she pushes you away, then releasing shield and Dsmash. I also know I can get a grab off of it sometimes.

 

[Sashimi]

Sorry for the late response, had no internet.

All right, this one was kind of weird to figure out but I think I've got an answer for you, @ Purpletuce .

Spoiler

Yoshi's jump has an unfortunate property to it. One of his feet reaches pretty low during his jump animation.

This makes parrying Peach's Dsmash a little tricky, because if you SH out of a parry, the second hit of Dsmash can hit your foot.

You can outspace it so that the second hit misses, and you will still be in range to hit Peach with Fair (and even if you weren't, you could drift forward after starting the Fair).

This is about the closest you can get (which is pretty close imo):

Another nice thing is that starting Fair early in your jump will move Yoshi's feet, so the second hit of Dsmash will miss you even if you were close enough to get hit:

The latest that this should work is if the Fair starts 9 frames after the parry (including jumpsquat time). It's a pretty small window to get but probably manageable - and this is only needed if you're really close to Peach.

You can also use a full jump instead of a short hop, but this only works if you jump immediately after the parry. In this case, DJC Fair compensates for the extra height of the full jump.

tl;dr Parry > Fair should work against Peach's Dsmash, but make sure you either space the parry a little bit away from Peach or start the Fair very early in your jump.

If I know Peach will Dsmash, I usually just shieldgrab because it's pretty easy to get, and despite the lack of guaranteed follow-ups I like keeping Peach in the air in this matchup. I might start using this instead, thanks

 

[YOSHIDO]

Just saying I love this thread. It was a very concise read for things I have forgotten, unclear, or new to. Haxdash will be incorporated

 

[Stevo]

great thread!

I'd love to see some information on shield dropping (unless I missed it)

 

[Sashimi]

Nothing here so far on shield dropping. If you're looking for general info on it, here's a good post that explains it.

Relevant to Yoshi, there isn't much that's different other than the fact that Yoshi has no shield stun, so he can in theory get guaranteed punishes on some moves. It's very difficult to do a shield drop in 4 frames or less, though, and I don't know what the "average shield drop" is for most players so I can't really say much about frame advantage and whatnot. What everyone already knows, of course, is that Yoshi's shield drop is seriously good. Uair has good coverage above the platform and for anyone attacking from below, Nair is really fast and DJC can be used to hit someone trying to outspace your punish. If the opponent decides to wait instead of attacking, Shield Drop > DJ > Waveland is useful for getting out of your shield.

 

[Purpletuce]

Thank you very much, and no worries about the time. I'm never in much of a hurry.

Interesting idea to dodge using fair. I like it.

 

[Kimimaru]

Here are a few things I've always been wondering:

Is DJC F-air -> DJC N-air -> Running grab an actual combo against FFers starting at 0%?
How about D-throw (no DI) -> DJC N-air -> Regrab?

 

[Sashimi]

DJC Fair > DJC Nair will work for sure. There may be a point right around 10% where they get knocked over and hit the ground too soon for you to Nair them, but any % lower or higher than that will be fine.

DJC Nair > Dash Grab is a nice string, but loses to crouch cancelling against anyone with good cc options. It seems to work for some players though, so it might be worth keeping anyway.

Dthrow (no DI) > DJC Nair > Regrab should work because they can't crouch cancel it in the air, and there's definitely enough hitstun on Dthrow for it to combo.

 

[Purpletuce]

In my experience people can get out of it, but most don't expect it in time to do anything about it. Same thing with Yoshi's Dthrow.

Although for Dthrow -> DJC Nair -> regrab, the regrab can be gotten out of pretty easily by players with good reflexes, I think that when they collide with the ground they get out of the hitstun, and can buffer a roll before being grabbed.