Some Problems with Wolf's Laser and shine

[proto235]

I noticed a while back(and some of you have as well, no doubt), that wolf's laser has a very serious weakness in that it can be SDI'ed or CCed to great effect, seriously hurting the duration of its hitstun, and hence severely limiting wolf's ability to combo out of laser.

I haven't played anyone yet who knows about this, but when people begin to realize this weakness and take advantage, it will come at a huge cost to wolf's already somewhat lacking approach options(at least compared to the other spacies) and his neutral game in general.

So the question is, what are some ways that we can mitigate or work around this weakness? All I have come up with so far is to use it to bait out and/or read unsafe options out of the hitstun, and punish that instead, but I would like more suggestions if you have them.


Edit: I realized I accidentally left out the bit about shine, so here goes:

Shine has a similar problem with sdi, making shining a grounded opponent really bad against someone who can SDI well, since it means he/she doesn't even have to get a true crouch-cancel to counter shine. I'm not sure to what general percent SDIing shine works

Btw, I would appreciate it if someone more experienced than myself could find some concrete numbers relating to SDIing shine and laser, as I don't want to get something wrong.

Edit #2: Also, I would like your guy's opinions on how much this will change Wolf's general game-plan, and what, effect(if any) it will have on his placing on the tier list.

 

[Soft Serve]

I don't think it's much of a weakness, if they are trying to CC/sdi down lasers that means they are eating them and taking that %, you don't have to approach after each laser, expecially if they are giving you free % doing bad counter play to it. You can also follow the laser anyway and just nair shine them when they try to cc

 

[proto235]

I don't think it's much of a weakness, if they are trying to CC/sdi down lasers that means they are eating them and taking that %, you don't have to approach after each laser, especially if they are giving you free % doing bad counter play to it. You can also follow the laser anyway and just nair shine them when they try to cc

The thing is, before they were forced to either shield, attack, or otherwise avoid the laser, making it great for zoning, as if it hit it was an easy confirm, but now, you get almost no pressure. That's a pretty significant downgrade. Yes, they eat all of 5 percent for it, but that's nothing compared to what we could get if they don't sdi.

 

[InfinityCollision]

CC is generally a worse option than shielding and especially powershielding. Don't really see the issue here, CC basically nets free percent.

 

[proto235]

CC is generally a worse option than shielding and especially powershielding. Don't really see the issue here, CC basically nets free percent.

When you shield, you confine yourself to a much smaller pool of options than if you were in neutral stance, opening yourself up to getting pressured in shield or punished for an oos option.

What this means for wolf's approach options is he has a much harder time forcing his opponent into bad positions, because even if he leads with a laser, his opponent will very quickly be in neutral stance again, allowing, for example, for a marth or roy to almost instantly dtilt after being hit by laser, which though obviously beaten by a an aerial approach, cuts off a huge number of follow up options from laser. Even when talking about falco's laser(which I'm pretty sure puts your opponent in more lag than an SDIed wolf laser), people like Cactuar have said that sometimes just taking the laser hit is better for this reason.

All that being said, I do admit that laser is still pretty useful, as it means that your opponent can't use any moves with more startup than it takes for the laser to hit and for you to get to them. And yes, powershielding is obviously a better option(and with a relatively slow moving projectile like wolf's laser, not terribly difficult to execute), but even SDIing wolf's laser is far easier in my experience to do consistently. Also, the 5-4% you get for your laser is nothing compared to the potential gains of opening someone up with wolf.

 

[Xcite]

There's no reason to approach an opponent who is CCing lasers. You're thinking too much in what wolf can't do instead of what he should be doing, which is shooting more lasers.

 

[proto235]

There's no reason to approach an opponent who is CCing lasers. You're thinking too much in what wolf can't do instead of what he should be doing, which is shooting more lasers.

Your right, there is no reason to approach someone who is just eating lasers, but the problem is, in order to get your opponent to CC/SDI lasers, otherwise he will just shield them, not having to worry about you directly attacking. You have to approach, in the sense that you must move within normal attack range with them.

You're probably right, though, about shooting more lasers being a good option, at least situationally, provided, of course that they are safe in that particular matchup if your opponent decides to CC/SDI, but still the rewards for hitting a laser are not that great compared to a combo, and you have to go through the trouble of provoking a CC/SDI by scaring them into not shielding every single time you want to tack on that 5-4%. I really don't think that this tactic would be worthwhile counterplay to combat CC-SDI, as the reward is so small, but I'm open to be proven wrong.

I'm not saying, by the way, that spamming lasers in general are bad, though; I do it all the time. I just think that it's not a good counter to CC/SDI being used as an anti-approach option.

Maybe I'm just overreacting to all this, and the solutions to this problem are just as easy as you say, but it's better to be safe than sorry. .

 

[XF_Awkward]

hey buddy, CC and SDI are two entirely different things. I'm worried that you might be thinking they are the same or in some way similar concepts

 

[proto235]

hey buddy, CC and SDI are two entirely different things. I'm worried that you might be thinking they are the same or in some way similar concepts

Yeah, I know; Their effects are very similar though in this case, so that's why I related them closely. Sorry, I didn't make that clear

 

[noboruplaysgames]

There's no reason to approach an opponent who is CCing lasers. You're thinking too much in what wolf can't do instead of what he should be doing, which is shooting more lasers.

This man speaks the truth. Think of it like you're playing fox. Just be content to sit back and shoot lasers. The more free % you rack up the quicker that ko and the win comes with it