Some OG characters are being forgotten

[Silask20]

With all these changes that come usually to newer characters some older characters that need love i feel are being forgotten. Including but not limited to my main, bowser. Little mac, mega man, ryu and some others dont wanna make a huge list.

the thing with these characters is they are very cut and paste. Its easy to predict them, no aces up their sleeves or flashy tricks (except mega man) and your strictly close range/ melee characters suffer more and more everytime u add more people with long range or medium range abilities just so they can counter these melee characters as they approach.

i know Byleth isnt great but try fighting one who really knows how to space properly with their polearm i promise you wont win anyway anyhow with bowser. You simply cant get up close.

we need to see some buffs to the melee characters that need it.

 

[Homelessvagrant]

I would hardly say the classics are being forgotten. Most of the original 8 are monsters in this game. As for Bowser, I find him as much more of a threat than Byleth though lets face it, Bowser hasn't been forgotten; he's always been bad. Go to the melee board and there is currently a conversation on whether Kirby or Bowser is the worst Melee character. But I wouldn't say Bowser needs any buffs, this is probably the healthiest the character has been in. Even the slightest buff can substantially change a character's identity (for better or worse). Buffing him could easily make the counterplay cancerous. So unless the character is an unhealthy state, I would be precautious about buffing. That and I know that some of the best characters are close ranged killers. so its not a range issue either (outside of elite smash lag anyways).

Consider going to the Bowser subforum for assistance before jumping the patchwagon. I'm not a big bowser player myself, but I can't see how he loses to Byleth. It really comes down to your ability to play footsies. I know for a fact that neither Megaman or Ryu do (though they are probably the furthest from being OG in smash terms). I think you may just be reacting passionately after an online loss.

 

[UserKev]

Some OG's are being forgotten, Mario is a strong example I mentioned a long time ago and I was immediately dissed. He isn't being forgotten as being the mascot of Nintendo, d-duh. He's just being forgotten in a specific way inside Smash Bros that make him feel absent and neglected. Mario needs a strong moveset revamp and even Final Smash.

 

[Silask20]

I would hardly say the classics are being forgotten. Most of the original 8 are monsters in this game. As for Bowser, I find him as much more of a threat than Byleth though lets face it, Bowser hasn't been forgotten; he's always been bad. Go to the melee board and there is currently a conversation on whether Kirby or Bowser is the worst Melee character. But I wouldn't say Bowser needs any buffs, this is probably the healthiest the character has been in. Even the slightest buff can substantially change a character's identity (for better or worse). Buffing him could easily make the counterplay cancerous. So unless the character is an unhealthy state, I would be precautious about buffing. That and I know that some of the best characters are close ranged killers. so its not a range issue either (outside of elite smash lag anyways).

Consider going to the Bowser subforum for assistance before jumping the patchwagon. I'm not a big bowser player myself, but I can't see how he loses to Byleth. It really comes down to your ability to play footsies. I know for a fact that neither Megaman or Ryu do (though they are probably the furthest from being OG in smash terms). I think you may just be reacting passionately after an online loss.

from an outside point of view as someone who doesn’t know the ins and outs of bowser its easy to say “hes a monster hes not great but hes good enough” i have over 200 hours of playtime dedicated completely to bowser. 330 hours playtime total.

anytime you add a character with some type of gimmick like byleths polearm/cord jokers mega counter/cord, heros projectile rng arsenal, characters that have to get up close and personal suffer.

big easy targets like bowser suffer most of all. I dont base my opinions on one loss but when the scales are tipped to unevenly im forced to be vocal about it. Its just not right. You have maybe one well known tourny player use bowser and even then you see bowsers limitations are practically set in stone in whats suppose to be a fluid combat game. And hes not the only one.

His moveset is slow, highly predictable and extremely limiting, like other characters your success has to be hard earned and more than likely, you will have to overcome odds stacked against you based on who you’re fighting.

then they keep adding characters, byleth for example again shes not great either but she has tricks to overcome obstacles. Her longer reach polearm incase she needs to create distance/zone or sees an opening for a quick and easy ko on an unsuspecting player. (Again i want u to face a good byleth as bowser you wont be able to get in unless you’re a tactician.) also have fun getting combo’d to 60-80%

its like ok another character thats so-so in the meta but can make a fool out of bowser players because she was given the tools to do so. If i had it my way id give bowser a new dash attack where he rams them using his horns instead of this weak a** little kick and add super armor to it so he can get in easier.

 

[Tortfeasor]

I'm not so sure it's a case that the OG characters are being forgotten, just that their move-sets are well-established and the developers are loathe to rock the boat on characters people already know how to use and enjoy using. I think it's fair to say that once a character appears in Smash, they generally don't undergo any major changes to their move-sets. The most extreme exception was Bowser in Smash 4 where he basically became an entirely new character. Ganondorf to a lesser extent in Ultimate was significantly changed and all they did there was give him new smash attacks. Even DK feels different to play compared to Melee and Brawl and all they did was give him the roll from DK Country as his dash attack instead of his big boot dash attack.

I suppose from a developer perspective, it's easier to balance what's already in the game, rather than experiment with new moves or redesigns of existing characters. Experimenting always has the chance of causing a character to be overpowered, underpowered, or not change the character's viability anyway. The results of such experimentation probably wouldn't be known until the game is in the hands of the public at which point it is too late to change things back.

This is why it's probably easier to tack on new ideas, features, and gimmicks to new characters; there are no preexisting expectations about what the character should be able to do. The developers have a lot more freedom to experiment. The result is often we get very gimmicky characters like Hero or overpowered characters like Joker or Smash 4 Bayonetta.

That being said, the developers have always had issues balancing large or super-heavyweight characters. You are either combo-food for small, fast characters or out-ranged by swordfighters or zoners. I've never been able to think of a great solution myself, except maybe to give them some attacks to help them space better or attacks that can power through projectiles/disjoints.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Some OG's are being forgotten, Mario is a strong example I mentioned a long time ago and I was immediately dissed. He isn't being forgotten as being the mascot of Nintendo, d-duh. He's just being forgotten in a specific way inside Smash Bros that make him feel absent and neglected. Mario needs a strong moveset revamp and even Final Smash.

That's because what you said wasn't accurate and you didn't bother to elaborate on your observation at all. Mario is anything but forgotten in Ultimate; he is being played by a notable amount of players and has been placing consistently well at high profile tournaments.

ANti got second place with him at Dream Hack Dallas 2019, 5th at Genesis Black and 25th at Pound 2019.
Dark Wizzy placed 1st at Mexican Gaming Championship, 2nd at Glitch 8th, 4th at DreamHack Atlanta 2019 and so on.
Tatsutsuyo from Japan got 9th place with Mario at Sumabato SP 7 and Sumbato SP 8.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg with other notable players like Zackray, formerly Ally, ChillyChilli, Zanyou, etc. doing well with the character. Many top players also consider him a high tier fighter at best, which can be debatable. But numbers don't lie, Mario is a good character with plenty of tourney presence and he has the results to show for. If Mario is in dire need of a moveset revamp how come he is doing so well?

His Smash 4 and Ultimate incarnations are by far the best versions of him to date, with Brawl Mario being terrible and Melee Mario being outclassed by Dr. Mario. So stating that Nintendo's mascot is absent and being neglected in Smash is simply not true.

from an outside point of view as someone who doesn’t know the ins and outs of bowser its easy to say “hes a monster hes not great but hes good enough” i have over 200 hours of playtime dedicated completely to bowser. 330 hours playtime total.

anytime you add a character with some type of gimmick like byleths polearm/cord jokers mega counter/cord, heros projectile rng arsenal, characters that have to get up close and personal suffer.

big easy targets like bowser suffer most of all. I dont base my opinions on one loss but when the scales are tipped to unevenly im forced to be vocal about it. Its just not right. You have maybe one well known tourny player use bowser and even then you see bowsers limitations are practically set in stone in whats suppose to be a fluid combat game. And hes not the only one.

His moveset is slow, highly predictable and extremely limiting, like other characters your success has to be hard earned and more than likely, you will have to overcome odds stacked against you based on who you’re fighting.

then they keep adding characters, byleth for example again shes not great either but she has tricks to overcome obstacles. Her longer reach polearm incase she needs to create distance/zone or sees an opening for a quick and easy ko on an unsuspecting player. (Again i want u to face a good byleth as bowser you wont be able to get in unless you’re a tactician.) also have fun getting combo’d to 60-80%

its like ok another character thats so-so in the meta but can make a fool out of bowser players because she was given the tools to do so. If i had it my way id give bowser a new dash attack where he rams them using his horns instead of this weak a** little kick and add super armor to it so he can get in easier.

Ultimate Bowser isn't slow. He has fast movement speed and decent frame data that makes him oppressive at close range. He has a good out of shield option in Up B, a 6 frame command grab that is difficult to react that can kill at high percentages and his Fire Breath is a decent landing/edgeguarding tool. He also has arguebly one of the best Fairs in the game. If Bowser becomes predictable is because you are playing predictable, which is true for every character. It's hard to believe that you've invested that much time in the character when you are miscontruing Bowser and overlooking his strenghts. Of course, being big makes him easy to hit but it's natural for most characters to have weaknesses and limitations. And I've played my fair share of The Bowz and also against good Bowser players, so this isn't an outside point of view.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Double post. Whoops.

 

[Arthur97]

Okay, how can you say that Bowser is bad? He is hardly bad and is very likely the best superheavy. Yeah, historically that isn't saying much, but he's genuinely decent at least.

As for OG, who are you even considering OG cause you mentioned Little Mac who is only on his second Smash game. I won't say the perfect attendance crew are all particularly good in 1-v-1 cause you know, Jigglypuff, DK, Captain Falcon, and Kirby exist, but on the flip side you have those that are competent to outright pretty good. And, aside from Joker, none of the DLC has been particularly stand out great competitively and even he recently got nerfed.

 

[Silask20]

Okay, how can you say that Bowser is bad? He is hardly bad and is very likely the best superheavy. Yeah, historically that isn't saying much, but he's genuinely decent at least.

As for OG, who are you even considering OG cause you mentioned Little Mac who is only on his second Smash game. I won't say the perfect attendance crew are all particularly good in 1-v-1 cause you know, Jigglypuff, DK, Captain Falcon, and Kirby exist, but on the flip side you have those that are competent to outright pretty good. And, aside from Joker, none of the DLC has been particularly stand out great competitively and even he recently got nerfed.

this is basically in response to both you guys but by OG characters i mean ones who started out in ssbu not just n64 smash which i played extensively aswell.

but bowser isn’t bad, hes good in SOME situations but what i find is most of the situations are pitting me against the odds, when this is not the same for characters like palutena, inkling, wolf, yoshi, joker and i could go on but you get it.

i actually find myself having a far far easier experience with krool lately. Which is wierd people say he isnt on bowsers level yet i juggle them around like a circus clown when i fight them 100% of the time.

i think all melee based characters need to be given better options for getting up close and personal and for piercing enemy defenses. When im pit against a super spammy link,samus, trevor, krool, D3 (ledge camper) it just becomes to much for me to overcome MOST of the time. I can try comin in hot,slow,high,low, left or right but if they call it then i get pushed back to where i started. Rinse and repeat till one of us dies. Its boring, alot easier for them then it is for me and honestly its just so tedious. I tried to play little mac competitively for a while, got pit against a samus and ill never do it again.

 

[UserKev]

That's because what you said wasn't accurate and you didn't bother to elaborate on your observation at all. Mario is anything but forgotten in Ultimate; he is being played by a notable amount of players and has been placing consistently well at high profile tournaments.

ANti got second place with him at Dream Hack Dallas 2019, 5th at Genesis Black and 25th at Pound 2019.
Dark Wizzy placed 1st at Mexican Gaming Championship, 2nd at Glitch 8th, 4th at DreamHack Atlanta 2019 and so on.
Tatsutsuyo from Japan got 9th place with Mario at Sumabato SP 7 and Sumbato SP 8.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg with other notable players like Zackray, formerly Ally, ChillyChilli, Zanyou, etc. doing well with the character. Many top players also consider him a high tier fighter at best, which can be debatable. But numbers don't lie, Mario is a good character with plenty of tourney presence and he has the results to show for. If Mario is in dire need of a moveset revamp how come he is doing so well?

His Smash 4 and Ultimate incarnations are by far the best versions of him to date, with Brawl Mario being terrible and Melee Mario being outclassed by Dr. Mario. So stating that Nintendo's mascot is absent and being neglected in Smash is simply not true.

I guess that's how Mario feels for me then. His moveset feels shallow to me these days. Also, no need to go as far as discrediting Melee Mario to further prove your statement. Melee Dr. Mario may overshadow Melee Mario but Melee Mario is still fantastically great. Mario's glory days will always be Smash 64/Melee to me.

 

[meleebrawler]

That's because what you said wasn't accurate and you didn't bother to elaborate on your observation at all. Mario is anything but forgotten in Ultimate; he is being played by a notable amount of players and has been placing consistently well at high profile tournaments.

ANti got second place with him at Dream Hack Dallas 2019, 5th at Genesis Black and 25th at Pound 2019.
Dark Wizzy placed 1st at Mexican Gaming Championship, 2nd at Glitch 8th, 4th at DreamHack Atlanta 2019 and so on.
Tatsutsuyo from Japan got 9th place with Mario at Sumabato SP 7 and Sumbato SP 8.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg with other notable players like Zackray, formerly Ally, ChillyChilli, Zanyou, etc. doing well with the character. Many top players also consider him a high tier fighter at best, which can be debatable. But numbers don't lie, Mario is a good character with plenty of tourney presence and he has the results to show for. If Mario is in dire need of a moveset revamp how come he is doing so well?

His Smash 4 and Ultimate incarnations are by far the best versions of him to date, with Brawl Mario being terrible and Melee Mario being outclassed by Dr. Mario. So stating that Nintendo's mascot is absent and being neglected in Smash is simply not true.



Ultimate Bowser isn't slow. He has fast movement speed and decent frame data that makes him oppressive at close range. He has a good out of shield option in Up B, a 6 frame command grab that is difficult to react that can kill at high percentages and his Fire Breath is a decent landing/edgeguarding tool. He also has arguebly one of the best Fairs in the game. If Bowser becomes predictable is because you are playing predictable, which is true for every character. It's hard to believe that you've invested that much time in the character when you are miscontruing Bowser and overlooking his strenghts. Of course, being big makes him easy to hit but it's natural for most characters to have weaknesses and limitations. And I've played my fair share of The Bowz and also against good Bowser players, so this isn't an outside point of view.

Forget it, man. Both of these users are just trying to mask their own highly subjective opinions under a facade of looking at the big picture, when they're really just either venting salt or firmly wearing nostalgia goggles while planting their heads in the sand.

Who else would try to argue a new dash attack for Bowser that is actually his old one?

 

[rat.jpg]

As long as a character has its mains it will not be forgotten. The Smashcords are evidentce of this. Everyone is working on their faves.

 

[Silask20]

Forget it, man. Both of these users are just trying to mask their own highly subjective opinions under a facade of looking at the big picture, when they're really just either venting salt or firmly wearing nostalgia goggles while planting their heads in the sand.

Who else would try to argue a new dash attack for Bowser that is actually his old one?

yes redirect your response to someone who is almost on the same page as you, makes it look better right?
As of late ive been playing krool as much as bowser, and I’ve been noticing a far easier time being successful with krool, thats not to say im equally as successful with bowser but its more challenging.

I can sit here and say krool is great, He is in a great place With alot of options to hard counter several playstyles.

characters like bowser and little mac (keeping it simple here) need to be looked at. What im saying is with every addition of characters designed to counter close range characters it gets harder and harder for us. And we need to be given more options for effectively approaching them since they are becoming more and more abundant how can you argue that?

 

[UserKev]

Forget it, man. Both of these users are just trying to mask their own highly subjective opinions under a facade of looking at the big picture, when they're really just either venting salt or firmly wearing nostalgia goggles while planting their heads in the sand.

Who else would try to argue a new dash attack for Bowser that is actually his old one?

I had already agreed with that user before your reply to his post. Even gave him a Like. Is something wrong with you? You may as well also have given him a Like by this point, bud.

I can see the big picture of Mario with the use of FLUDD still in his moveset unnecessary. Especially over, where's the Odyssey cap, seriously?

 

[meleebrawler]

I had already agreed with that user before your reply to his post. Even gave him a Like. Is something wrong with you? You may as well also have given him a Like by this point, bud.

I can see the big picture of Mario with the use of FLUDD still in his moveset unnecessary. Especially over, where's the Odyssey cap, seriously?

Really? Because it seems like almost everyone in this thread is holding a different conversation. He was arguing viability, and didn't mention a thing about being "authentic" which is what you're doing. Cappy is there, in a taunt. The devs probably just didn't see a feasible way to include capturing in a multiplayer fighting game. And fighters are not the only, or even the best way at times to represent parts of a franchise.

OP didn't mention a thing about being authentic either. He just hates playing a game where there are more viable projectile zoning characters than others, and tries to heavily downplay how much of it happened in past games to strengthen his argument, usually by only looking at high-level play.

 

[UserKev]

Really? Because it seems like almost everyone in this thread is holding a different conversation. He was arguing viability, and didn't mention a thing about being "authentic" which is what you're doing. Cappy is there, in a taunt. The devs probably just didn't see a feasible way to include capturing in a multiplayer fighting game. And fighters are not the only, or even the best way at times to represent parts of a franchise.

OP didn't mention a thing about being authentic either. He just hates playing a game where there are more viable projectile zoning characters than others, and tries to heavily downplay how much of it happened in past games to strengthen his argument, usually by only looking at high-level play.

Guess I ultimately misread the title of this thread then. Also with Cappy, still big missed opportunity, honestly. Why not have Cappy as an item grabber that can also turn around assists? Just some ideas.

 

[MaddaD]

This is mainly just a meta issue. Bower's a slow high risk-high reward bait 'n punish character in a game that rewards being mobile and fast, one and a half things he lacks. His weight and endurance is a double edged sword which makes him hard to kill but he gets combo'd easy. He's still better than he was pre-Smash 4 though. Not a terrible character and commands respect when fighting against him lest you get an F-Smash near ledge.

You should read more match ups on characters you struggle against though. Bowser is still just as viable as he's always been. Little Mac, on the other hand...

 

[Silask20]

Some OG's are being forgotten, Mario is a strong example I mentioned a long time ago and I was immediately dissed. He isn't being forgotten as being the mascot of Nintendo, d-duh. He's just being forgotten in a specific way inside Smash Bros that make him feel absent and neglected. Mario needs a strong moveset revamp and even Final Smash.

marios final smash is rather underwhelming but i can name a few that are pretty busted, jigglypuff prob being the worse? Tough to say. Marios issue and somewhat of a bonus is they’ve tried to keep him true to his original moveset from the beginning. By this time mario mains have mastered it time and time again.

the problem is its predictable and new characters come about with movesets specifically made to counter his playstyle amongst others that rely as gettinf up close to the enemy.

Really? Because it seems like almost everyone in this thread is holding a different conversation. He was arguing viability, and didn't mention a thing about being "authentic" which is what you're doing. Cappy is there, in a taunt. The devs probably just didn't see a feasible way to include capturing in a multiplayer fighting game. And fighters are not the only, or even the best way at times to represent parts of a franchise.

OP didn't mention a thing about being authentic either. He just hates playing a game where there are more viable projectile zoning characters than others, and tries to heavily downplay how much of it happened in past games to strengthen his argument, usually by only looking at high-level play.

u hit one nail on the head. This game is being flooded with zoners. I feel like i spend 70% of my time dodging and weaving through projectiles just to get some damage out there. In the original smash zoning was rare and in melee it wasnt really a viable playstyle to camp and throw things.

but with the introduction of more and more characters the scales have tipped. The idea of Smash was to get up into eachothers space and smash the hell out of eachothers faces. Now its being reduced to campy, spammy, playstyles. Repetitive and predictable but worse of all, boring to play against. I switch to krool sometimes so i can at least reflect and have some zoning capability of my own to gain some stage control.

the problem im pointing out is that there are to many characters who aren’t capable of doing this. Bowser being one, little mac, ryu, Ike (at least he has long reach) but ultimately the easier victory goes to the zoners and they keep introducing characters with more and more gimmicky movesets and zoning capabilities leaving these ones in the dust.

 

[meleebrawler]

marios final smash is rather underwhelming but i can name a few that are pretty busted, jigglypuff prob being the worse? Tough to say. Marios issue and somewhat of a bonus is they’ve tried to keep him true to his original moveset from the beginning. By this time mario mains have mastered it time and time again.

the problem is its predictable and new characters come about with movesets specifically made to counter his playstyle amongst others that rely as gettinf up close to the enemy.




u hit one nail on the head. This game is being flooded with zoners. I feel like i spend 70% of my time dodging and weaving through projectiles just to get some damage out there. In the original smash zoning was rare and in melee it wasnt really a viable playstyle to camp and throw things.

but with the introduction of more and more characters the scales have tipped. The idea of Smash was to get up into eachothers space and smash the hell out of eachothers faces. Now its being reduced to campy, spammy, playstyles. Repetitive and predictable but worse of all, boring to play against. I switch to krool sometimes so i can at least reflect and have some zoning capability of my own to gain some stage control.

the problem im pointing out is that there are to many characters who aren’t capable of doing this. Bowser being one, little mac, ryu, Ike (at least he has long reach) but ultimately the easier victory goes to the zoners and they keep introducing characters with more and more gimmicky movesets and zoning capabilities leaving these ones in the dust.

Show me an official or promotional piece that specifically promises a focus on close range battling and we'll talk. But first, can you tell me how a character with a reflector, good mobility, frame data up close and a move that forces people out of good positions is bad against zoning?

If you don't get saticfaction from dishing out massive damage in a hurry after overcoming zoning, and if you allegedly do better playing defensively at K. Rool, maybe that's a sign you're actually forcing yourself to play in a manner that isn't actually suiting you out of some preconceived notions?

 

[Silask20]

Show me an official or promotional piece that specifically promises a focus on close range battling and we'll talk. But first, can you tell me how a character with a reflector, good mobility, frame data up close and a move that forces people out of good positions is bad against zoning?

If you don't get saticfaction from dishing out massive damage in a hurry after overcoming zoning, and if you allegedly do better playing defensively at K. Rool, maybe that's a sign you're actually forcing yourself to play in a manner that isn't actually suiting you out of some preconceived notions?

imo there aren’t enough. Thats why i picked up krool its not hard to force a zoner out of his campy lame playstyle. I can usually overcome the odds with bowser, (forget little mac hes hopeless strictly only dangerous to OTHER melee close range characters) but there are certain ways people set up where it becomes impossible for me as bowser to overcome.

i understand it being difficult thats fine but impossible? Thats wrong. New characters being introduced are given gimmicky, flashy moves to overcome such obstacles but the old ones are just left to fend for themselves with the tools they were given.

i gave this a test, i meet another great bowser player were dominating 2s in arena, against one note worthy player even. We pit him against my krool, and sure i can read bowser like a book. But he was really good. I only used my crown,cannonball gun, downsmash and counter. I camped under a platform, and spammed.

he comes in for a fair, gets countered or sucked into my gun, he comes in for a grab, easy to call, punish it. Fire breath only gonna get you punished hard. There was literally 0% victory chance for him. We reversed and it was the same for me, got him to one stock but ultimately it was obvious who was gonna win.

i can lay down, sink into my couch, and give half my attention to the game and theres nothing a high tier bowser player can do and vice versa. Its sad, its unbalanced and it needs to be looked at. And this is only one example, they need to give their “brawlers” something more to work with before adding in more characters who have all these flashy gimmicks that counter them. How about more characters who counter zoners? Thatd be nice.

btw all we could do was laugh ourselves to death at how ridiculously impossible it is for bowser to overcome this ridiculous spammy mess. Its actually funny how broken it is

 

[Spiny Top]

Have you tried using bowsers fire breath liberally? Seems like it would be a good tool against Byleth, by either forcing her to shield or jump. She can’t outrange it with her polearm and it would interfere with her bow.

I never play bowser or byleth but that’s my 2 cents on the matchup.

Anyways, I can see how it would be frustrating if an overused newcomer was a bad matchup for your main. Sorry about that. I’ve been pretty lucky so far that Byleth, Terry, Hero and the others are a balanced matchup for ROB.

 

[Silask20]

Have you tried using bowsers fire breath liberally? Seems like it would be a good tool against Byleth, by either forcing her to shield or jump. She can’t outrange it with her polearm and it would interfere with her bow.

I never play bowser or byleth but that’s my 2 cents on the matchup.

Anyways, I can see how it would be frustrating if an overused newcomer was a bad matchup for your main. Sorry about that. I’ve been pretty lucky so far that Byleth, Terry, Hero and the others are a balanced matchup for ROB.

ROB is extremely versatile he can achieve air dominance pretty easily aswell as maintain some stage control.a good ROB doesnt have to worry about ever being an easy kill for someone that isnt a god tier lucas.
I am an avid user of bowsers fire, i utilize it to almost the ultimate degree. Its great for walling off certain projectiles and is easy one of the worse punishes to be caught by point blank. The problem is its bowsers only ranged tool and its highly highly punishible, like u have time to semi charge a smash attack if i miss.

also byleth can jab me with her polearm mid fire blast with a second of freedom. Same for corrin. So its often a 50-50 exchange only difference is i die at a high%. A smart player isnt trying to shield or get out of bowser fire, They’re lining up what theyre going to do to me as soon as its done. Byleths polearm is an A+ answer