Solidly entertaining highlight reel of upper-mid-level Joker play

FartyParty

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Title says it all and here's the video on YouTube, but would really appreciate it if people would search code 4Q33RG82 in the Smash World app or in the game itself and give this a like!

 

ADYBE

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Really good video, it seems you’re good at edge guarding. Do you have anything to say about the Joker v.s. Lucina/ Marth matchup, like how do you feel about their spacing, their edge guarding, or how to kill them?
 

FartyParty

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Really good video, it seems you’re good at edge guarding. Do you have anything to say about the Joker v.s. Lucina/ Marth matchup, like how do you feel about their spacing, their edge guarding, or how to kill them?
Thank you!!!

From what I've experienced, Joker definitely loses the Lucina matchup. I got lucky in the first few clips vs Lucina that the Lucina player (someone who I know for a fact is really REALLY good, wayyyyy better than me) made some uncharacteristic mistakes allowing me to get the edge guards on him.

I main Lucina myself, though, and I can tell you what other Joker players have done successfully against me as Lucina. The downward guns interrupting dolphin slash were a big issue since Lucina prefers recovering low. Gimping Lucina like that for early kills is definitely the way to go. Obviously, there are opportunities for more normal edge guards like in my highlights, but again, those were enabled by some uncharacteristic mistakes by my opponent. Certainly worth trying for regardless. On the whole, Lucina's disjoints have better range than Joker's disjoints so getting close enough to land Joker's aerials can be a challenge (basically the same challenge most characters have against her). Side-B and dtilt can be a useful tools to mitigate pressure and start combos since it is very difficult landing fair's first hit on Lucina. Grab game vs Lucina doesn't really change relative to other characters despite her range advantage.

Not much more I can add. Need a lot more experience with the matchup still, and everything I've advised is subject to change based on new info from more matches and training.
 

haxfactory

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My primary criticisms are that you are playing Joker like he is Lucina.

Pretty much every scenario of edge guarding you are just pushing the buttons Lucina would push in those scenarios and in some cases the results could have been devastating.

Like for instance there were a couple stage spikes that if teched would have put you into disadvantage, while using a different option would have avoided the scenario all together.

You're even spacing like you are playing Lucina, which is okay at times, f tilt is a nice tool to tell people not to get into your zone, but Joker is a zone breaker not a spacing character. Playing him like he is, he will just lose to characters that can space him out.

You also don't seem to have a great grasp on Joker's combo tree yet and you don't really seem to understand your possible follow ups.

The first example is pretty much right at the start where you didn't know what you could get off of down tilt.

Landing a down tilt should actually be pretty huge at low percents against a heavyweight. Up tilt, to up air, to up b, to fair would have almost certainly been true and allowed you to start an edge guard. There are more complicated up air drag down combos, but that one is simple enough, not as affected by DI and SDI, does plenty of damage and starts an edge guard.

Another important example occurs at 2:15 where you get a fair 1 which would guarantee an up smash at least. Hitting a second fair 1 drag down combo or lock would have been hard in that scenario, so I can't blame you for missing a jab lock set up, but being able to follow up on a stray fair 1 hit is key to Joker gameplay, you need to be able to convert on those opportunities.

Then right after at 2:35 you do a fairly standard string d tilt, up tilt, up air, but rather than going for the up b command grab you go for another up air which is almost definitely not true. In fact, I didn't see any up b combo extensions at all. You need to be able to scout these out! These are basically free resets.

There were even some scenarios where you up aired and could tack on a couple extra percent for free with an up b in mid-air (which is a hitbox similar to Ivysaur's, but much weaker). That's not a huge issue unless they would have somehow died (the hit is so weak that it rarely kills even at higher percents, but it's good to be aware of when they are right on the edge of the blast zone). But free percent is still free percent.
 

FartyParty

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My primary criticisms are that you are playing Joker like he is Lucina.

Pretty much every scenario of edge guarding you are just pushing the buttons Lucina would push in those scenarios and in some cases the results could have been devastating.

Like for instance there were a couple stage spikes that if teched would have put you into disadvantage, while using a different option would have avoided the scenario all together.

You're even spacing like you are playing Lucina, which is okay at times, f tilt is a nice tool to tell people not to get into your zone, but Joker is a zone breaker not a spacing character. Playing him like he is, he will just lose to characters that can space him out.

You also don't seem to have a great grasp on Joker's combo tree yet and you don't really seem to understand your possible follow ups.

The first example is pretty much right at the start where you didn't know what you could get off of down tilt.

Landing a down tilt should actually be pretty huge at low percents against a heavyweight. Up tilt, to up air, to up b, to fair would have almost certainly been true and allowed you to start an edge guard. There are more complicated up air drag down combos, but that one is simple enough, not as affected by DI and SDI, does plenty of damage and starts an edge guard.

Another important example occurs at 2:15 where you get a fair 1 which would guarantee an up smash at least. Hitting a second fair 1 drag down combo or lock would have been hard in that scenario, so I can't blame you for missing a jab lock set up, but being able to follow up on a stray fair 1 hit is key to Joker gameplay, you need to be able to convert on those opportunities.

Then right after at 2:35 you do a fairly standard string d tilt, up tilt, up air, but rather than going for the up b command grab you go for another up air which is almost definitely not true. In fact, I didn't see any up b combo extensions at all. You need to be able to scout these out! These are basically free resets.

There were even some scenarios where you up aired and could tack on a couple extra percent for free with an up b in mid-air (which is a hitbox similar to Ivysaur's, but much weaker). That's not a huge issue unless they would have somehow died (the hit is so weak that it rarely kills even at higher percents, but it's good to be aware of when they are right on the edge of the blast zone). But free percent is still free percent.
Your assessment is 100% accurate. I've been maining Lucina for the last 4 months, and I totally play Joker too much like Lucina. Absolutely true. And there is no denying that I need more work memorizing the combo strings and recognizing appropriate follow up options (especially with the up-B). All fair criticisms.

But I also think those are reasonable issues for someone at my skill level to have with a character that's been out less than a week.
 

haxfactory

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Your assessment is 100% accurate. I've been maining Lucina for the last 4 months, and I totally play Joker too much like Lucina. Absolutely true. And there is no denying that I need more work memorizing the combo strings and recognizing appropriate follow up options (especially with the up-B). All fair criticisms.

But I also think those are reasonable issues for someone at my skill level to have with a character that's been out less than a week.
You're absolutely right, those are totally reasonable issues to have so early on.

Just pointing out what I think you will need to work on.

Honestly for the first couple of days I had a lot of those same issues with Joker.

It's so easy to forget about the up b grapple because it's so unusual, but it's an important tool to remember.
 

ADYBE

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Strangely, I think Joker is pretty good with the Lucina matchup. His hurtbox is kind of small when he runs or jumps, so he doesn’t struugle as much as the others characters about Lucina’s disjoints. Like you said before, his gun kills the low recoveries, dtilt and Side-b are the tools to use against her. I will do a guide about Joker’s matchups, so if you have others matchups you experienced, don’t hesitate to talk to me.
 

FartyParty

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You're absolutely right, those are totally reasonable issues to have so early on.

Just pointing out what I think you will need to work on.

Honestly for the first couple of days I had a lot of those same issues with Joker.

It's so easy to forget about the up b grapple because it's so unusual, but it's an important tool to remember.
Keep in mind also that at my level poor reaction times and misinputs are still quite common. A couple problems you saw weren't me picking wrong options or not knowing a follow up, but entering controls wrong or reacting too slowly.
 
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