So with 3.6 coming what do you want to see for luigi?

[WaffleDinosaur]

You know, besides this godlike taunt

 

[AngryDeathBox]

I'm content with how luigi is right now. Maybe buff his down taunt for lulz.

Then again, I'm not really a pm player yet, so don't take what I say with too much thought.

 

[Kapapanerp]

Honestly, nothing. He's pretty much perfect right now. It'd be cool to have 3.02 tornado, but otherwise I'm content with the weege.

 

[Elza~]

Slightly buff the speed of the misfire.

If they are going to give my opponent visual cues as to when I have one(ridding the element of surprise), then I am gonna need them to not be able to outrun me.

 

[moonfolk]

Slightly buff the speed of the misfire.

If they are going to give my opponent visual cues as to when I have one(ridding the element of surprise), then I am gonna need them to not be able to outrun me.

I think his melee misfire would do just nicely....

 

[Cubelarooso]

Stuff that's pretty obvious:

• Make wavescuttle work both ways.
• Remove the dpad thing from Cyclone.
• Foot hitbox on Cyclone. The aerial version had one in Melee, which was important against Sheik's Uair, plus it remained after landing which gave Luigi something against Marth's Dtilt. Might as well just put it on the grounded version by default.
• For that matter, the first hit of aerial Cyclone is supposed to do 9 damage, not 8.
  
• Better fit ledge grab boxes to animations, particularly on Missile.
• Invincibility on Missile is totally unnecessary.

Some cool ideas that I think would improve Luigi's design:

• I don't like the ability to combo into a guaranteed Misfire. Something should be done, but it should be something that's actually well thought out, rather than a slapped-on patch by non-Luigi-players that just makes the character jankier. Something important to consider that sorta defines Melee Misfire is that it's unreliable, and often as dangerous for Luigi as for his opponent.
  My favorite idea of how it could work is for pressing shield to simply prevent a Misfire, rather than store it. So if Luigi has 1/4 chance of Misfiring and presses shield when using Green Missile, then, regardless of whether that would've actually been a Misfire, the next Missile would have a 1/3 chance. It's guaranteed and unpreventable once it reaches 1/0, leading to Melee-esque self-destructive Misfires, except they can be planned around. Misfiring resets it back to 1/6, as usual.
• This would be good to pair with some sort of signifier for where Luigi is in the cycle, like most similar things have. Doesn't have to be super obvious, just something like varying opacity/period of the Misfire-indicating flash, or varying volume/pitch of the Misfire-prevention gasp.
  
• As a separate issue, the cycle should reset upon death.
• With all this, I think it'd be fair to revert the Misfire speed to Melee.
• I really like the Brawl animation of Luigi getting his head stuck in the wall. Luigi should be able to activate it in PM by pressing towards a wall while Missiling into it. This would allow a lot of creativity, and give Luigi a bit of mixup to compensate for being unable to store guaranteed Misfires.
• The second hit of Melee Cyclone lasts 1 frame, but in PM it's 4 frames. Neither of these extremes visually match what one would expect, so I think 2 or 3 frames would be better.
• Make it easier to land the desired hitbox on Dair. Right now the Meteor is more trouble than it's worth, imo. Also make it a spike for no reason, too, like other characters.
• A crawl attack. Specifically, I’m thinking a short (in movement-distance and body-size) roll which could be used to Epic Geordi Maneuver under attacks, with a few frames of intangibility near the start. This would allow (with proper timing) Luigi a way through projectiles and disjoints that currently give him problems, and would add to his theme of having weird, crazy ground movement.

Stuff I'll never stop bringing up:

• Get rid of the horrible slime effect.
• Make Sweetspot Super Jump Punch have a 1-Up jingle and graphical effect. SJP is a reference to the blocks in the Super Mario series, and their unpredictable nature. They could contain a hoard of coins (Mario’s), or just one (Luigi’s). The sweetspot presents the other side of the coin (): There could be a power-up, secret vine, or more! It's a natural extension of what's already there, and c’mon, you gotta admit it would be an awesome reward for a read or end to a combo. Plus, there's currently no great name for the sweetspot, which could be remedied by 1-Up-B.

Lastly, I greatly enjoy the gif in the OP, but I think it'd be better as a win pose, since that's what it was in 64, and it just doesn't really look like a taunt to me.

 

[MURP]

I agree with most of what you've suggested, @ Cubelarooso , but have a few comments/suggestions/counterproposals.

• Make wavescuttle work both ways.

I believe this doesn't work for the same reason crawldashing only works in one direction. Fixing it seems like it would be a quite large undertaking.

• Remove the dpad thing from Cyclone.

I disagree with this. It's simply not possible to consistently gain the maximum height on Luigi's cyclone without setting other buttons to special and I see no reason to include something so strenuous on hands and controllers in the game as the ridiculous mashing required to gain the maximum height without the dpad. I think they should just slightly decrease the maximum height that cyclone can gain and, if they do get rid of the dpad mashing, make it easier to gain that height.

• For that matter, the first hit of aerial Cyclone is supposed to do 9 damage, not 8.

The move really doesn't need a damage buff, especially given that the second hit no longer stales from hitting with the first hit, so I don't think it needs to be changed (not that I would mind or oppose it).

• Invincibility on Missile is totally unnecessary.

I haven't heard about this before. On what part of his body and on what part of the move is he invincible?

• I really like the Brawl animation of Luigi getting his head stuck in the wall. Luigi should be able to activate it in PM by pressing towards a wall while Missiling into it. This would allow a lot of creativity, and give Luigi a bit of mixup to compensate for being unable to store guaranteed Misfires.

I don't understand why you would ever want this, but I think doing it by holding the taunt button would make more sense.

• A crawl attack. Specifically, I’m thinking a short (in movement-distance and body-size) roll which could be used to Epic Geordi Maneuver under attacks, with a few frames of intangibility near the start. This would allow (with proper timing) Luigi a way through projectiles and disjoints that currently give him problems, and would add to his theme of having weird, crazy ground movement.

I think that more characters should get crawl attacks, but they should be careful when giving new moves to characters that are midtier or higher in Melee so that people can still transition between games relatively easily. I support this as long as the move is not too centralizing (and I think a move that helps him get around projectiles easily would be too centralizing). I would like his crawl attack to be a butt scoot. I just feel like it would fit him so well.

 

[Elza~]

I agree with most of what you've suggested, @ Cubelarooso , but have a few comments/suggestions/counterproposals.

I believe this doesn't work for the same reason crawldashing only works in one direction. Fixing it seems like it would be a quite large undertaking.

I disagree with this. It's simply not possible to consistently gain the maximum height on Luigi's cyclone without setting other buttons to special and I see no reason to include something so strenuous on hands and controllers in the game as the ridiculous mashing required to gain the maximum height without the dpad. I think they should just slightly decrease the maximum height that cyclone can gain and, if they do get rid of the dpad mashing, make it easier to gain that height.

The move really doesn't need a damage buff, especially given that the second hit no longer stales from hitting with the first hit, so I don't think it needs to be changed (not that I would mind or oppose it).

I haven't heard about this before. On what part of his body and on what part of the move is he invincible?

I don't understand why you would ever want this, but I think doing it by holding the taunt button would make more sense.

I think that more characters should get crawl attacks, but they should be careful when giving new moves to characters that are midtier or higher in Melee so that people can still transition between games relatively easily. I support this as long as the move is not too centralizing (and I think a move that helps him get around projectiles easily would be too centralizing). I would like his crawl attack to be a butt scoot. I just feel like it would fit him so well.

On the topic of the D-pad mashing, I have absolutely no issues mashing the B-button and it isn't strenuous at all.

I am extremely consistent at it, with of course very rare instances of failure. Common in humans.

It is a personal thing for me, but I don't approve of the D-pad method as I feel it is fraudulent, but again, it is what it is.

 

[DJT3tris]

On the topic of the D-pad mashing, I have absolutely no issues mashing the B-button and it isn't strenuous at all.

I am extremely consistent at it, with of course very rare instances of failure. Common in humans.

It is a personal thing for me, but I don't approve of the D-pad method as I feel it is fraudulent, but again, it is what it is.

I don't see why using the dpad is fraudulent. I see it as using a tool that was provided to me by the game and it is too good of a recovery option to not use. Just my opinion though.

 

[SmashJC]

... ehem (Cr@5h B@nd|c007 as a skin)BTW Down B
I'm ok with luigi, heh.

 

[Elza~]

I don't see why using the dpad is fraudulent. I see it as using a tool that was provided to me by the game and it is too good of a recovery option to not use. Just my opinion though.

I say it is fraudulent only because the people who use it, likely can't legitimately mash the B-button fast enough to make use of the recovery. I am speaking from a standpoint in which is from a Melee player that doesn't have the D-pad as an option, but can still perform the Cyclone recovery.

Once again, I personally don't approve, but what I do or don't approve of doesn't affect anyone else.

 

[TreK]

As a Brawl Luigi, the one thing I'd want is for the sweetspot upB to end on frame 5 so that if you B-reverse it, it still sweetspots, like in Brawl.
Ergonomics and stuff. People who come from Brawl don't do backwards upBs, they do regular upBs which they B-reverse. Sure it would be a slight unnecessary buff but it is inconsequential at best, isn't it ?

Outside of this, I'm of the opinion that every move that helps a character recover and doesn't put it in freefall mode should have diminishing returns. In example, tethers have a limited supply, ZSS's down B is only really good if you have a double jump, Snake's infinite recovery requires him to take a lot of damage, Marth's side B bumps him less and less the more he uses it, bomb jumping becomes impossible once your upB is stale, etc... I believe you can only do Luigi's cyclone once per air time even if you get hit out of it (as opposed to the Brawl cyclone) and that's good, but there should be something done about his side B as well imo.
Right now, the more you are "forced" to use side B by getting walled out, the more likely you are to eventually get a misfire, so it makes your recovery better, not worse, with time. It should not do that. Better yet, it should probably do the opposite.
There are a number of ways to go about it and I can't claim to know which one's the best since I have tested exactly none of the various ideas I've had for Luigi. I'm sure you guys can do something smart about it, PMDT.

And yeah fix crawldashing (yeah, wavescuttle, whatever lol) if you can, that'd be great. It's a nice AT and I think it could find its way into the metagame of the characters that have it.

Plus, there's currently no great name for the sweetspot, which could be remedied by 1-Up-B.

What ? It is and has been the shoryuken since before you were born, son.

 

[Alternative]

I say it is fraudulent only because the people who use it, likely can't legitimately mash the B-button fast enough to make use of the recovery. I am speaking from a standpoint in which is from a Melee player that doesn't have the D-pad as an option, but can still perform the Cyclone recovery.

Once again, I personally don't approve, but what I do or don't approve of doesn't affect anyone else.

So you're saying that just because someone is unable to properly mash, they should have a recovery option taken away from them? This will only deter new players from picking up Luigi. His cyclone is what makes Luigi's recovery what it is. If you take that away, you are only hurting new players that are physically unable to mash. It won't affect me much, but I think a lot of new players will stop playing him or even never pick him up in the first place. Bad recovery can really turn players off. There aren't many Luigi's as is, so why make it harder for people wanting to start playing him. It's not like Luigi is OP or anything. You don't really see many Luigi mains winning big tournaments.

 

[Elza~]

So you're saying that just because someone is unable to properly mash, they should have a recovery option taken away from them? This will only deter new players from picking up Luigi. His cyclone is what makes Luigi's recovery what it is. If you take that away, you are only hurting new players that are physically unable to mash. It won't affect me much, but I think a lot of new players will stop playing him or even never pick him up in the first place. Bad recovery can really turn players off. There aren't many Luigi's as is, so why make it harder for people wanting to start playing him. It's not like Luigi is OP or anything. You don't really see many Luigi mains winning big tournaments.

I don't think you actually read what I typed.

Nowhere did I say, because it isn't in Melee, it shouldn't be in PM. I am only pointing out that it is likely people who use that method can't actually mash the B-button.

And as I said, what I do or don't approve of PERSONALLY, doesn't affect OTHER players. Meaning they can do whatever they please. I am not sure where you got the idea I want PMDT to take it out entirely.

 

[Alternative]

I don't think you actually read what I typed.

Nowhere did I say, because it isn't in Melee, it shouldn't be in PM. I am only pointing out that it is likely people who use that method can't actually mash the B-button.

And as I said, what I do or don't approve of PERSONALLY, doesn't affect OTHER players. Meaning they can do whatever they please. I am not sure where you got the idea I want PMDT to take it out entirely.

I got the idea that you wanted it taken out completely because you're talking about how you disapprove of it in the 3.6 changes thread. Also, did you even read what I said? I never said anything about it not being in melee. I'm saying that new players that can't mash shouldn't be punished. Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone should solely depend on d-padding. I know that d-padding won't help them learn mashing, but until they do learn to mash, let them still have the recovery option. I understand that you may not personally approve, but look at it from a new player's perspective. Please don't interpret my comments wrong. I'm not mad. I just like a good debate.

 

[Elza~]

I got the idea that you wanted it taken out completely because you're talking about how you disapprove of it in the 3.6 changes thread. Also, did you even read what I said? I never said anything about it not being in melee. I'm saying that new players that can't mash shouldn't be punished. Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone should solely depend on d-padding. I know that d-padding won't help them learn mashing, but until they do learn to mash, let them still have the recovery option. I understand that you may not personally approve, but look at it from a new player's perspective. Please don't interpret my comments wrong. I'm not mad. I just like a good debate.

Lol

No use in debating opinions.

As far as the D-padding goes, it is fine they have it, however they will likely not learn to properly mash because they will get too used to the D-pad method. If the outcry from the changes to certain characters from 3.02-3.5 is any indication, people are not entirely open to "change". I would hate to see all the New Luigi players drop him if they happened to remove the D-pad mashing method because they never invested the time to learn how to properly mash. *Hypothetically speaking*

At the end of the day though, it is what it is. You can have that. That ain't even what I'm mad at

 

[Cubelarooso]

The move really doesn't need a damage buff, especially given that the second hit no longer stales from hitting with the first hit, so I don't think it needs to be changed (not that I would mind or oppose it).

Only two other moves have been adjusted for the different staling, and I wouldn't put them in the same category as Cyclone, especially since one of Cyclone's main functions is clanking things. It's not a buff, it's the way the move is supposed to already be. The aerial version of the move, at least. And since the the aerial version can be grounded, I see no reason why the regular ground version shouldn't have it.

I haven't heard about this before. On what part of his body and on what part of the move is he invincible?

His whole body, for the first 5 frames after releasing, which also overlaps with its hitbox.

I don't understand why you would ever want this, but I think doing it by holding the taunt button would make more sense.

First because it's funny, but it would also be a simple tool inspiring creativity, without significantly affecting balance.
It could be an option to prevent Luigi from falling in exchange for having more endlag. Off the top of my head, such a trade could be used to keep momentum from carrying Luigi under the stage, to preserve more recovery options when an edgehogger rolls, to survive when he'd otherwise be too low, or simply as a mixup that could disrupt spacing.
It's also conceptually similar to the "buried" condition, so there's justification to be immune to grabs.

I think that more characters should get crawl attacks, but they should be careful when giving new moves to characters that are midtier or higher in Melee so that people can still transition between games relatively easily. I support this as long as the move is not too centralizing (and I think a move that helps him get around projectiles easily would be too centralizing). I would like his crawl attack to be a butt scoot. I just feel like it would fit him so well.

Obviously, any change should avoid being centralizing, but it should still add something to the game. The idea isn't for it to be an easy way to get around disjoints, but a skillful way. Something that takes timing, spacing, and knowing when it won't be super-punishable.
Not sure how a butt-scoot would work, since Luigi crawls sideways. I'm thinking maybe something kinda like this.

As a Brawl Luigi, the one thing I'd want is for the sweetspot upB to end on frame 5 so that if you B-reverse it, it still sweetspots, like in Brawl.
Ergonomics and stuff. People who come from Brawl don't do backwards upBs, they do regular upBs which they B-reverse.

I actually think this could be a really good change. Seems like it'd raise Luigi's skill ceiling more than it would really buff him, and the precedent makes it sound quite reasonable.

What ? It is and has been the shoryuken since before you were born, son.

I don't think "shoryuken" is a great name; not like "tipper," "nipple spike," or "tipman." It's not that catchy, fairly trite, difficult to spell/pronounce, and, strictly speaking, doesn't necessarily imply the sweetspot.
Just think of the terms the 1-up jingle would allow! "Mushroom punch;" "getting a(n extra) life;" "finding the hidden secret…" It'd make such wonderful, terrible, incredibly-hype commentary!

 

[ProjectNaman]

I haven't gotten used to the switch from smash 4 to PM, Luigi's cyclone I mean, it doesn't have priority over projectiles it's just messing me up. Would it be a bad idea to apply this to PM?