So why do some characters get true combo throws and others don't?

[Gotmilk0112]

Just seems weird. You have characters like Inkling that have enough hitstun on their throws that they can true combo into aerials up to a certain percent, but then you have characters like Mewtwo where, even at 0%, non-elite players online can airdodge or jump out of down throw at 0%.

Like seriously, what is even the point of a low knockback throw if it doesn't have enough hitstun for any kind of follow up?

 

[Crystanium]

I agree, and I think that's part of the problem with SSBU. I could say that's the problem with SSB in general. Not only that, not all set-ups are consistent with all characters. There are times where d-throw to n-air or f-air don't connect on certain characters I fight, and it has nothing to do with my timing. Then there are characters who can carry you across the stage and potentially kill you that way. It would be nice if all characters had at least one consistent option.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think one of the biggest factors when trying to perform a follow-up is knowing if the throw can deal enough knockback to put fighters in a tumbling state. If fighters don't tumble, you risk getting punished right back during the ending lag portion of the throw.

 

[Xquirtle]

Mewtwo probably should get his throw combos back as a specific example, because hes kinda underwhelming and disappointing, but lots of characters definitely should be very limited or just have none. Heavies in particular make sense to have limited or no throw combos due to the inherent power of their moves. Kill confirms and kill throws in particular should be severely limited, which they basically are. We've just seen kill confirms off of throws be pretty aids in smash 4 with Diddy and Sheik pre nerf.

Regardless, i think it just depends on the rest of the characters kit. Like its a design decision to give characters their power through different means, and nintendo definitely includes whether or not they have true combos out of the grab as a variable. Corrin is a perfect example of a character that used to be incredibly strong in smash 4 and had no throw combos at any %, iirc. She had kill throws, and other incredibly powerful moves to compensate. In ulti, she still has no throw combos and is severely nerfed on the B button, so she kinda just sucks now.

 

[Gotmilk0112]

Yeah, it's like...Mewtwo's down throw is just utterly useless now, since you can jump/airdodge out of it even at 0%. He's got up/back throw for top / side throw kill, and forward throw for damage, but...down throw is just awful.

 

[Necro'lic]

I still stand by my observation that the more of a "minimum viability" you have across characters' tools in battle, the more balanced the characters will be. So everyone should definitely have a nice combo starter throw. Some would be less potent than others, some more, and better and worse in different ways, but everyone will have them. It makes balancing a lot easier while still allowing for a good amount of uniqueness.

 

[Venclaire]

I agree, and I think that's part of the problem with SSBU. I could say that's the problem with SSB in general. Not only that, not all set-ups are consistent with all characters. There are times where d-throw to n-air or f-air don't connect on certain characters I fight, and it has nothing to do with my timing. Then there are characters who can carry you across the stage and potentially kill you that way. It would be nice if all characters had at least one consistent option.

One thing that is important to note is whether or not if your throw is weight dependent. For example, Falcon's dthrow is weight dependent, so getting combos on Marth that are true is a lot easier than Bowser (in theory). This sucks a lot for combo throws and I think it should almost be entirely removed on them. But there is definitely a balance reason for it that I don't understand.

 

[Necro'lic]

One thing that is important to note is whether or not if your throw is weight dependent. For example, Falcon's dthrow is weight dependent, so getting combos on Marth that are true is a lot easier than Bowser (in theory). This sucks a lot for combo throws and I think it should almost be entirely removed on them. But there is definitely a balance reason for it that I don't understand.

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Funny you mention that, because they removed it in Ultimate.

 

[Venclaire]

Funny you mention that, because they removed it in Ultimate.

oh thank god

yeah after that point its probably just a mixture of the character's fallspeed, weight, airdodge frame, gravity, and what frame they airdodge in idk

 

[Prison]

I'll play devil's advocate and raise the point that, the game would be extremely boring/stagnant if every character had a similar move set.

This game, like many other fighting games, are based on learning how YOUR character plays, then understanding how your character interacts with others. This is affected by character's hurtbox size, weight, your hitbox, and frame data. Which fundamentally make Smash, smash.

The whole point of playing the character you play, is because you see it's advantages/disadvantages. Those advantages to you are worth forgoing those disadvantages. If you want a kill throw, play someone with a kill throw. If you want a true combo out of shield, you have to play someone with a true combo out of shield (or know the exact times/percentages that the combo becomes untrue).

 

[Gotmilk0112]

I'll play devil's advocate and raise the point that, the game would be extremely boring/stagnant if every character had a similar move set.

Nice hyperbole.

 

[Necro'lic]

I'll play devil's advocate and raise the point that, the game would be extremely boring/stagnant if every character had a similar move set.

This game, like many other fighting games, are based on learning how YOUR character plays, then understanding how your character interacts with others. This is affected by character's hurtbox size, weight, your hitbox, and frame data. Which fundamentally make Smash, smash.

The whole point of playing the character you play, is because you see it's advantages/disadvantages. Those advantages to you are worth forgoing those disadvantages. If you want a kill throw, play someone with a kill throw. If you want a true combo out of shield, you have to play someone with a true combo out of shield (or know the exact times/percentages that the combo becomes untrue).

I work off of this great post by David Sirlin that shows that if you give a good amount of defensive prowess to all characters in the game to the point where all of them have some form of counter to whatever the game's imbalanced nature could throw at them, you can create a MUCH crazier and more unique cast of characters than you otherwise could. It's shown with Guilty Gear, it's shown in Dota as well, which is the example I fall back to because compared to other MOBAs, Dota heroes are nucking futs and look super imbalanced and yet aren't.

Once we understand the "minimum viability" by giving all characters ways to counter all other characters via defensive game mechanics, then we can go much crazier and more fun with the design of these characters, creating something new and enriching from the chaos, while also being well balanced to boot. This is why in my redesign series of threads I keep sharing, pretty much all of my ideas, even for some semi-clone characters that people would rather just delete like Roy, are extremely out of left field for the series, because I keep to a trend; each of these redesigns, no matter how crazy, has a minimum amount of tools to potentially fight any other character semi-comfortably.

 

[Xelrog]

It's a very dangerous slope to start homogenizing characters, and one that is most definitely precedented in other games. Try to make every character able to do everything and they start to feel very same-y, making the game a whole lot less fun.

Does this mean I think characters should have moves with no utility at all, like Mewtwo's down throw? Of course not. I just think it's very possible to go too far in the direction Necro is describing.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

For the most part, the best way to make a throw be a combo starter is to give it a high enough BKB value that can cause thrown fighters to tumble at any damage percentage. But at the same time, you don't want the KBG to be too high, or else it'll become more difficult to perform follow-ups at higher damage percentages.

However, there are cases where you don't want the BKB to be too high either. For an example, Yoshi has no real chance of performing a follow-up after using his d-throw, simply because of how high its BKB is.

 

[Necro'lic]

It's a very dangerous slope to start homogenizing characters, and one that is most definitely precedented in other games. Try to make every character able to do everything and they start to feel very same-y, making the game a whole lot less fun.

Does this mean I think characters should have moves with no utility at all, like Mewtwo's down throw? Of course not. I just think it's very possible to go too far in the direction Necro is describing.

You are right. Which is why I said you can then differentiate characters further because this framework gives you "permission" to create imbalanced tools/mechanics/moves in a way, because there is always a countermeasure all characters can use to fight the imbalance.

 

[Gotmilk0112]

"start homogenizing"

Are we even playing the same game?

TONS of **** is already "homogenized", hence why I'm even bringing up this topic in the first place. Tons of characters have combo throws, hence why it's weird when other characters don't, or in Mewtwo's case, where he has a combo throw but it just doesn't work at all because you can literally jump/airdodge out of it at 0%.