So....Who does Luigi lose to and win to amongst the top tiers?

[MERPIS]

Asking because I want to know what Mu's to brush up on...

 

[Yonder]

Very short version:

Win: Bayo, Fox,Mario,Diddy, (Pikachu)
Loss: Sheik, Cloud, ZSS, Mewtwo, Sonic, Rosa
Even: Ryu,(maybe Marth)

Study em all though, cause none are instant wins (or losses) for Luigi. Elegant is out there managing Sheiks yet has a Diddy problem, so it just goes to show ya top tiers can always hold their own.

 

[Jackguti]

Very short version:

Win: Bayo, Fox,Mario,Diddy, (Pikachu)
Loss: Sheik, Cloud, ZSS, Mewtwo, Sonic, Rosa
Even: Ryu,(maybe Marth)

Study em all though, cause none are instant wins (or losses) for Luigi. Elegant is out there managing Sheiks yet has a Diddy problem, so it just goes to show ya top tiers can always hold their own.

Personally I think Luigi goes even with Cloud and Sheik for the sheer fact that both of them have easy chances of getting killed early. (Sheik's upB is gimpable and she is very light/ Cloud's recovery is very gimpable) I also think that marth wins the matchup because he just had ridiculous spacing that's hard for Luigi to deal with. IMO

 

[Yonder]

Personally I think Luigi goes even with Cloud and Sheik for the sheer fact that both of them have easy chances of getting killed early. (Sheik's upB is gimpable and she is very light/ Cloud's recovery is very gimpable) I also think that marth wins the matchup because he just had ridiculous spacing that's hard for Luigi to deal with. IMO

Luigi gets blown up in the neutral by Cloud and Sheik. Cloud overwhelms Luigi with superior range and mobility. Cloud is easy to gimp though, yes. It's hard when Luigi is kept away in the air so he's forced to play on the ground where Cloud is a bit slower frame data wise. Luigi can't do much about Cloud charging limit either.

Sheik uses needles and has such overwhelming frame data that even Luigis nair doesn't shatter much of Sheiks strings, certainly not fair. Also he is very easily gimped off stage. She's up B is not very easy to gimp at all, there is little to no window for Luigi to intercept up B. She is combo material though and Elegant seems to do well vs Void, but I don't think it's even. I played this matchup many times and I usually switch to Mewtwo for it.

Cloud can basically space better than Marth due to better mobility, frame data, and a (mediocre) projectile. Marth doesn't have the frame data to contend with Luigi at times, but his range is bothering. But so is Luigi's fireball to Marth, and Marth can't go as deep offstage as Sheik either or control with a projectile. It's doable, no more than 55:45 Marth but there's not a lot of top level play to really determine this. Well, Elegant mutilated Pugwest at the last big tournament...

 

[MERPIS]

Luigi gets blown up in the neutral by Cloud and Sheik. Cloud overwhelms Luigi with superior range and mobility. Cloud is easy to gimp though, yes. It's hard when Luigi is kept away in the air so he's forced to play on the ground where Cloud is a bit slower frame data wise. Luigi can't do much about Cloud charging limit either.

Sheik uses needles and has such overwhelming frame data that even Luigis nair doesn't shatter much of Sheiks strings, certainly not fair. Also he is very easily gimped off stage. She's up B is not very easy to gimp at all, there is little to no window for Luigi to intercept up B. She is combo material though and Elegant seems to do well vs Void, but I don't think it's even. I played this matchup many times and I usually switch to Mewtwo for it.

Cloud can basically space better than Marth due to better mobility, frame data, and a (mediocre) projectile. Marth doesn't have the frame data to contend with Luigi at times, but his range is bothering. But so is Luigi's fireball to Marth, and Marth can't go as deep offstage as Sheik either or control with a projectile. It's doable, no more than 55:45 Marth but there's not a lot of top level play to really determine this. Well, Elegant mutilated Pugwest at the last big tournament...

Just a minor nitpick here, Sheik's upb is very hard to gimp, but it is doable, it doesn't go too far on its own, sheik mainly needs to rely on bouncing bullcrap and her double jump to make it back safely.

 

[RequiemRedStar]

Would you mind explaining why Luigi wins to Bayo? Is it because her Witch Time isn't particularly useful against a character that prefers to dash grab rather than throw out aerials?

 

[MERPIS]

Would you mind explaining why Luigi wins to Bayo? Is it because her Witch Time isn't particularly useful against a character that prefers to dash grab rather than throw out aerials?

Bayonetta hates grab based characters since she can't witch time freely. Luigi just so happens to be able to get 25% or more out of 1 dthrow combo, he also boasts much better frame data, attack speed, and a much more reliable finisher in Usmash which can really screw her over due to her having no real reliable ways of escaping juggles except for DABK, which usmash either trades with or goes through, he can have trouble with her dumb bull range, but that's about it.

 

[RequiemRedStar]

That makes sense, but as you noted, getting that grab can be rough because of her stupid range and ability to just run away and stall Luigi out with acrobatic nonsense and bullets. I haven't tried trading usmash with DABK, I'll have to look into that.

 

[MERPIS]

That makes sense, but as you noted, getting that grab can be rough because of her stupid range and ability to just run away and stall Luigi out with acrobatic nonsense and bullets. I haven't tried trading usmash with DABK, I'll have to look into that.

The head invincibility either trades or goes through DABK's bull hitbox.

 

[Platformin' Mike]

Hey there! So we're talking about how well Luigi spars with high tier characters?

 

[MERPIS]

Hey there! So we're talking about how well Luigi spars with high tier characters?

Well more so the top 10, but I suppose we can talk about the high tiers as well

 

[Platformin' Mike]

Is that all this is about? Anyway, in my opinion Luigi is the best. I know statistically He's not, but I think he's a great character !!

 

[RequiemRedStar]

Is that all this is about? Anyway, in my opinion Luigi is the best. I know statistically He's not, but I think he's a great character !!

I'm a luigi main for life, but sometimes I get irritated at how hard I have to "work" at matchups and how much time I spend (slowly) drifting back to the stage or trying to chase down a camping opponent. There just aren't any really abuseable things about Luigi, other than maybe Down B Cyclone gimps every now and then, and even so that took me a stupidly long time to master and I don't always feel like mashing the crap out of my controller.

 

[Platformin' Mike]

I'm a luigi main for life, but sometimes I get irritated at how hard I have to "work" at matchups and how much time I spend (slowly) drifting back to the stage or trying to chase down a camping opponent. There just aren't any really abuseable things about Luigi, other than maybe Down B Cyclone gimps every now and then, and even so that took me a stupidly long time to master and I don't always feel like mashing the crap out of my controller.

I agree with you. Though mashing isn't a problem for me...! Anyway, you're kind of right. But some of it is opinionated or you just have a hard time adapting. Anything can be played around you know.

 

[RequiemRedStar]

Oh for sure everything can be played around. It's just that after a few matches spent carefully powershielding and dodging projectiles from toon link I think to myself "wow... I could just jump in and fair with cloud right now". Simplified example yeah but you get the point.

 

[RobC]

Bear with me for my second post ever but I've got some insight on ZSS.

I've always felt confident going in against ZSS. I believe Luigi should approach ZSS as he would most other matchups.

Spoiler: Disadvantage

Luigi has a pretty rough disadvantage state against ZSS.
Luigi has no air speed compared to ZSS and his landing options, Cyclone, Nair, and air dodging, are all predictable to anyone with enough experience playing against Luigi. This is a huge weakness considering ZSS is one of the best jugglers in the game.
When caught in ZSS'S UpB smash DI up and away. I've had decent success shaking Luigi out of this potential kill move. Reposition yourself in the neutral afterwards, however, because she will reach the ground first. Don't try to chase her to the ground with a Nair.

ZSS can also call out a grab approach with a spot dodge to Up tilt, an easy way to start a juggle. Going for a raw dash grab is not recommended.

Recovering from Off stage against ZSS isn't much worse than other matchups. As usual Save your double jump and do not air dodge early.
If she tries to go deep for a gimp stay patient and try to reverse the situation. Air dodging at the right time can open her up to a back air or cyclone gimp. I like to save my double jump until I'm near the stage but still below the ledge. I've had success bouncing fireballs off the bottom lip of the stage to gimp her out of her tether recovery or DownB. Most ZSS'S I've encountered haven't gone low off stage for a gimp against me.

Getting off the ledge, however, is another pain. ZSS can stay spaced at the ledge enough to cover every option Luigi has. ZSS can grab Luigi out of neutral get up or get up attack, rolling in is easy to react to, and ZSS can snipe your jump from the ledge with her quick aerials. It's all about getting lucky hoping you picked the right option and mixing up your recovery. Air dodge off the ledge and cyclone on stage. If it's shielded you can drift back off stage safely before the end of cyclone and regain invincibility when you repeat the ledge. Or try to hop off the ledge with a fireball in front of you. Use Luigi's tools to remain unpredictable.

With that considered, I've always felt Luigi has answers in other parts of the matchup that play to his strengths.

Spoiler: Neutral

He should play patient and take his damage where he can. Stay grounded and rely on good spacing, solid reads, and some quick reactions to punish ZSS's more laggy moves. ZSS will keep you at mid-range so get comfortable here. While unfortunately you cannot grab or jab here, you can shield, fireball, and walk. Always walk. Your opportunity to rush in will present itself. Luigi always finds that opening.

Luigi will slide too far to punish her Ftilt, Dtilt, Fsmash or Dsmash. Her Jab, Uptilt, each of her specials except downB, her up smash and Fsmash, and ESPECIALLY grab are all easy to punish if Luigi is properly spaced for a dash grab or if you roll behind the ZSS. This opportunity doesn't present itself often as ZSS will utilize her movement to stay out of grab range. Do not get greedy. If you can't punish then wait and react to what she does next.
Did she roll away? Walk up and maintain your spacing.
Did she short hop for Nair/Zair/Uair? React with an up smash out of shield, especially if you did not get the perfect shield. That's okay. Otherwise do not commit to punishing her landing without a good read on your opponent.
Did she dash back to reset the neutral? Throw out a fireball and continue your patient pressure. Patience wins the ground game in this matchup and that's where you need to win.

Do not approach with an aerial. Her out of sheild options are fast and she can easily catch Luigi's landing with a dash grab or dash attack.
Speaking of dash attack, never use yours, punish hers hard. Luigi's greasy feet allow him to slide with her along the ground for a bit if you are positioned at mid-range. Punish with an up smash at high percents or use a turnaround grab at low percents to rack up percent.

Do not get greedy with your combos. The Fast falling, light, large hit box of ZSS is great for combos but she can DownB flip out and take stage control away. Be aware of what aerials you are using to combo her. RAR Uair into back air is still good in this matchup. If you get that early grab at the ledge go for the Fair Dair cyclone gimp. Go for straight Dair to Cyclone gimp if she's far enough to fall off stage.

Fireballs are okay in this matchup. Short hop fireballs can stop her in the air and while she's standing because of her height. Good for zoning but Do not get predictable ZSS has many options to punish this. This is a zoning tool in this matchup, do not approach with it.

Spoiler: Advantage

So if ZSS is so fast where does Luigi gain the advantage?

I believe Luigi has a big advantage when ZSS is off stage. Force ZSS to recover low. Throw fireballs off stage. Deny her attempts to flip on stage with fireballs and Luigi's quick aerials. If you hear the flip kick come out get ready to punish. Condition your opponent to go for the ledge.

Be patient at the ledge. Fireballs block neutral get up and get up attack, knocking ZSS off stage and resetting the situation. This is also free grab or smash if you react well enough. Catch her if she tries to roll in or flip kick on stage using up smash to safely launch her back off stage. If she tries to hop from the ledge with an aerial or Zair then shield and grab. She can jump up from the ledge and mix up her landing with a flip kick. Try to punish this with an up smash or chase with a cyclone to keep her in the air. Know your options at the ledge! This is where you should drag the match on and stack on damage one exchange at a time.

ZSS recovering low is easy for cyclone gimping. If you read the tether grab at the ledge it's easy to cyclone gimp. Her up B will collide with cyclone and drop her beneath the stage.

Catching ZSS on landing isn't impossible. Up smash answers her falling aerials but beware of falling Bair if she's facing away. Depending on her orientation on the air be ready to shield then grab or up smash. If she uses flip kick to get out of the situation then chase her and reposition yourself in the neutral. Do not commit to anything as she will probably have her feet on the ground by the time you get there.

Edit: Wow I typed a lot...
TL;DR Be patient. Walk. Don't jump. Don't get greedy. Gimp.

 

[RequiemRedStar]

Didn't know about useage of fireballs to screw with tether recoveries. What do you do, short hop off and chuck it at the ledge?

 

[RobC]

Didn't know about useage of fireballs to screw with tether recoveries. What do you do, short hop off and chuck it at the ledge?

I usually do it when recovering. I find this situation comes up most often when I recover low with Missle and it occurs against her or any other character who goes low to gimp my horizontal recovery. I'll burn my second jump to throw a fireball at the lower lip of the stage and use either UpB or mash DownB to recover after.

If I decide to throw fireballs off stage to pressure high recoveries, however, I'll shorthop Off stage with one or two fireballs then drop below the ledge after and B-Reverse a fireball against the stage right before recovering to the ledge. By the time I'm back on stage there's a hit box below the stage that the opponent has to worry about. It's a decent mixup most people are uncomfortable with and it pushes them to rush their recovery on stage where I can punish their get up. It also softens some characters UpB's when allowing cyclone to connect more easily for the gimp.

The angle at which the fireball bounces depends on the bottom curve/wall of the stage. A slanted wall will bounce the fireball down at a 45 degree angle. I've used this to interupt other characters like Mar/cina, T/Link, Greninja, Rosalina, etc.

I use this sparingly, and in some matchups much less than others. It's Just another off stage mixup for Luigi. I feel like he already has so many lol



How do you guys feel about Mewtwo though? How do you approach him safely?

 

[Scot B]

From discussing this with other good Luigi's I think I can give a general overview for anyone looking to understand his spread against the other top tiers. This is a compilation of top Luigi's opinions on matchups combined, for the most part.

Beats- Mario, Pikachu, Fox, Captain Falcon, Diddy Kong, Lucario, Metaknight, DK, Olimar
Even- Sonic, Cloud, Ryu, Bayonetta, Corrin, Marth/Lucina, Sheik, Megaman, Villager, Bowser
Loses- ZSS, Rosa, Mewtwo (Some argue Sheik and Megaman, but results say otherwise.)

I know a lot of these arent 100% top tier, but still relevant. A lot of his matchups in general tend to lean more toward even like a lot of the better characters in the game for reference.

 

[MERPIS]

From discussing this with other good Luigi's I think I can give a general overview for anyone looking to understand his spread against the other top tiers. This is a compilation of top Luigi's opinions on matchups combined, for the most part.

Beats- Mario, Pikachu, Fox, Captain Falcon, Diddy Kong, Lucario, Metaknight, DK, Olimar
Even- Sonic, Cloud, Ryu, Bayonetta, Corrin, Marth/Lucina, Sheik, Megaman, Villager, Bowser
Loses- ZSS, Rosa, Mewtwo (Some argue Sheik and Megaman, but results say otherwise.)

I know a lot of these arent 100% top tier, but still relevant. A lot of his matchups in general tend to lean more toward even like a lot of the better characters in the game for reference.

Sonic is definitely losing

 

[Scot B]

Sonic is definitely losing

I really do not see how. I have played Craftis a ton, who is without a doubt one of the best sonics at the Luigi matchup from playing with other sonics such as powpow. Luigis fireball creates a hole in sonics neutral forcing him to jump a lot and approach high. Luigi can chase sonic in the air and on landings really well, along with having a better boxing game. Sonic really only does better at the edge and in advantage.

 

[MERPIS]

I really do not see how. I have played Craftis a ton, who is without a doubt one of the best sonics at the Luigi matchup from playing with other sonics such as powpow. Luigis fireball creates a hole in sonics neutral forcing him to jump a lot and approach high. Luigi can chase sonic in the air and on landings really well, along with having a better boxing game. Sonic really only does better at the edge and in advantage.

Luigi can't catch him, most of luigi's garbage is shut down by sonic, better range, really easily gimped

 

[Scot B]

Luigi can't catch him, most of luigi's garbage is shut down by sonic, better range, really easily gimped

Luigis fireballs make up for his speed in this matchup, shutting down landings and forcing a predictable approach. Sonic really does not have better range, and if youre getting gimped easy then your recovery just sucks in general.