So my buddy says charizard is OP.

[metroid1117]

IMO chari is just extremely easy to play and win with compared to the MU knowledge you need to play around him, he's surprisingly good at getting out of combos if you're not really on point while the char itself combines an insane amount of hitstun with followup moves that can connect from very far off while his survivability and in-cre-di-ble recovery give him a huge margin for error.

IMO at the moment he's basically jigglypuff, only charizard doesn't die nearly as fast as she does and has more range and a better recovery and combos

To be clear, the hitstun a character undergoes after getting hit by an attack is directly proportional to the knockback of the attack; stronger attacks tend to have more hitstun than weaker attacks (since stronger attacks do more knockback) and heavier characters tend to undergo less hitstun than lighter characters (since their weight causes them to take less knockback). With regards to the character, Charizard is awkward to combo because he's heavy and floaty, but he's also very large, so he's easier to hit. With regards to his attacks though, Charizard's attacks don't have any more hitstun than other character's attacks.

 

[FlamingForce]

Must be his range then, in any case his combos feel very easy to execute.

 

[xX210nate210Xx]

He goes on about his "high priority" and rediculous vertical catching ability.

He won't listen to me, but he will listen to a large amount of people saying similiar things.

I don't believe charizard is remotely OP, (from what i understood he was near bottom tier when he came out..)
Is there anyone thatcan prove either him or me wrong?

 

[xX210nate210Xx]

Im a charizard user he is very powerful great character but i still lose every now and than i have trouble with projectiles but if your good enough you can counter some moves that you didnt think could be stopped my friends all day have been saying how ridiculous OP he is but honestly projectiles mess me up and i feel link is a big counter anyone else who fights close is dead charizard gets combo'd ok three hits back and we are on the same percent he has some armor wont flinch apparently but idk any questions n ill answer as charizard user ill always enjoy ppl improving but not be gimmicky i improved greatly to beat link players still trouble but better than before so practice n over come anything

 

[SleepyTRex]

Charizard is so bad you get slapped by projectiles

 

[QraQ]

Char has a lot of tools to fight projectiles IE jab nair ftilt. The only ones I fear him having a problem with are the ones that can be followed up on easy IE Wolf laser, Mario fireball, Ivy razor leaf.

I think Char has much more favorable matchups than bad. His kit just allows him to take over any situation IE aerial combos, high aerial combos, ground combos, edge-guard, off edge-guard, inside game. The only place I feel he lacks strong composition is neutral game, but mixups with approaching with nair mediate that flaw well IMO.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

Fox should be taking games free from Zard, imo.

Your friend's opinions make me giggle.

 

[Foxy K]

Fox should be taking games free from Zard, imo.

Your friend's opinions make me giggle.

They kill each other pretty hard but Zard requires less precision or tech skill. So, yeah, a Fox can laser camp and intercept Zard's approaches, and ultimately win, consistently. But he had better not mess up, because the Zard will take a stock, and Fox can't do it back to him as easily.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

They kill each other pretty hard but Zard requires less precision or tech skill. So, yeah, a Fox can laser camp and intercept Zard's approaches, and ultimately win, consistently. But he had better not mess up, because the Zard will take a stock, and Fox can't do it back to him as easily.

Fox can stuff just about anything Zard wants to do when Zard doesn't have Nair active.

 

[tauKhan]

Fox can stuff just about anything Zard wants to do when Zard doesn't have Nair active.

Fox can stuff just about nothing charizard manages to do. (My definition for stuffing: out prioritizing opponents hitboxes.)

 

[TimeSmash]

He has a very nice aerial game that requires good spacing, but his aerial speed outside of glide, in which he is quite vulnerable anyways, is not that great. He can combo you but again, spacing and DI can take care of a lot of that. I feel like Charizard is somewhat punish-dependent--if you get caught in his combos, half the time it's your fault. (you in general, not a specific person haha)

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Fox can stuff just about nothing charizard manages to do. (My definition for stuffing: out prioritizing opponents hitboxes.)

You really have no f***ing idea how Fox or the match-up works.

Fox's sheer mobility allows him to lame out Charizard. Even a half-decent Fox can bait out aerials and punish poor spacing by flitting in and out of Charizard's range and Char's usual advantage of out-spacing characters with his range and good ground mobility is neutered by a Fox content with tacking on percent through lasers. Fox has a great combo game on Zard as well and only really loses Uthrow -> Uair to finish, while USmash kills Zard easier than most and a well-placed bair or shine can eat Zard's glide, or kill him if he's already used it. Zard additionally loses his usually good vertical kill power because Fox falls so fast.

Zard can take care of a off-stage Fox easier than most, Dthrow on a platform murders Fox as hard as it does everyone and Zard has Up-B OoS. Elsewise the MU goes like a typical fattie v/s Fox. I can chain-throw Fox to 50% with Ike and get a bair out of it if I follow DI well, doesn't mean than Fox doesn't have the advantage in the Ike MU. Lots of characters combos Fox, but that doesn't count for much when he can murder them easier.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

You really have no f***ing idea how Fox or the match-up works.

Fox's sheer mobility allows him to lame out Charizard. Even a half-decent Fox can bait out aerials and punish poor spacing by flitting in and out of Charizard's range and Char's usual advantage of out-spacing characters with his range and good ground mobility is neutered by a Fox content with tacking on percent through lasers. Fox has a great combo game on Zard as well and only really loses Uthrow -> Uair to finish, while USmash kills Zard easier than most and a well-placed bair or shine can eat Zard's glide, or kill him if he's already used it. Zard additionally loses his usually good vertical kill power because Fox falls so fast.

Zard can take care of a off-stage Fox easier than most, Dthrow on a platform murders Fox as hard as it does everyone and Zard has Up-B OoS. Elsewise the MU goes like a typical fattie v/s Fox. I can chain-throw Fox to 50% with Ike and get a bair out of it if I follow DI well, doesn't mean than Fox doesn't have the advantage in the Ike MU. Lots of characters combos Fox, but that doesn't count for much when he can murder them easier.

I was waiting for someone who know what they're talking about. Thank you. lol

 

[tauKhan]

You really have no f***ing idea how Fox or the match-up works.

Fox's sheer mobility allows him to lame out Charizard. Even a half-decent Fox can bait out aerials and punish poor spacing by flitting in and out of Charizard's range and Char's usual advantage of out-spacing characters with his range and good ground mobility is neutered by a Fox content with tacking on percent through lasers. Fox has a great combo game on Zard as well and only really loses Uthrow -> Uair to finish, while USmash kills Zard easier than most and a well-placed bair or shine can eat Zard's glide, or kill him if he's already used it. Zard additionally loses his usually good vertical kill power because Fox falls so fast.

Zard can take care of a off-stage Fox easier than most, Dthrow on a platform murders Fox as hard as it does everyone and Zard has Up-B OoS. Elsewise the MU goes like a typical fattie v/s Fox. I can chain-throw Fox to 50% with Ike and get a bair out of it if I follow DI well, doesn't mean than Fox doesn't have the advantage in the Ike MU. Lots of characters combos Fox, but that doesn't count for much when he can murder them easier.

You misunderstood my post, sorry that I wasn't apparently clear enough . Fox doesn't really stuff moves much, except for sometimes with bair and utilt, and usmash. I wrote the definition of what I understand stuffing to be: Marth fairing a fox out of his nair is stuffing, using better hitboxes to directly hit opponent out of his move is stuffing. Fox doesn't work like that, he wants to mainly evade attacks and punish or get close during endlag.

Zard fox matchup is pretty interesting actually, I don't know at all which is better in it. Zard wants to keep distance from fox while fox wants to get close to charizard. The neutral game is very different from the typical fox vs fattie since fox doesn't have overwhelming mobility advantage in the grounded game, zard is almost as fast as fox, and is faster than marth. I don't think lasers are really relevant to the matchup since zard is so fast and stage is very valuable for fox. Retreating lasers in the neutral are actually very big risk, since zard can get a dtilt or nair out to hit fox from so far away, and fox doesn't want to get himself cornered either. In some situations they are free damage of course, but usually not much until zard comes to threatening range. Regarding fox baiting out aerials, I think zard shouldn't jump in the neutral game vs fox at all except maybe very sparingly nair out of dash back. Zard basically doesn't want to do a move first, since whiffing one usually means fox can either punish you or get close to you. Fox on the other hand has hard time approaching zard since he has much better range and can get big hitboxes out fast. I have been working with pivot jabs and ftilts, and they make approaching with shorthop aerial against zard pretty risky since if I'm dashing back I can pivot jab or ftilt through his moves on reaction. Zards problem in the neutral game is that he really doesn't seem to have any safe threats that don't yield stage, and thus it can be hard to keep fox out.

 

[Peco]

Charizard is extremely hard to approach and even when you get in he has a lot of tool to push you back...

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

You misunderstood my post, sorry that I wasn't apparently clear enough . Fox doesn't really stuff moves much, except for sometimes with bair and utilt, and usmash. I wrote the definition of what I understand stuffing to be: Marth fairing a fox out of his nair is stuffing, using better hitboxes to directly hit opponent out of his move is stuffing. Fox doesn't work like that, he wants to mainly evade attacks and punish or get close during endlag.

Zard fox matchup is pretty interesting actually, I don't know at all which is better in it. Zard wants to keep distance from fox while fox wants to get close to charizard. The neutral game is very different from the typical fox vs fattie since fox doesn't have overwhelming mobility advantage in the grounded game, zard is almost as fast as fox, and is faster than marth. I don't think lasers are really relevant to the matchup since zard is so fast and stage is very valuable for fox. Retreating lasers in the neutral are actually very big risk, since zard can get a dtilt or nair out to hit fox from so far away, and fox doesn't want to get himself cornered either. In some situations they are free damage of course, but usually not much until zard comes to threatening range. Regarding fox baiting out aerials, I think zard shouldn't jump in the neutral game vs fox at all except maybe very sparingly nair out of dash back. Zard basically doesn't want to do a move first, since whiffing one usually means fox can either punish you or get close to you. Fox on the other hand has hard time approaching zard since he has much better range and can get big hitboxes out fast. I have been working with pivot jabs and ftilts, and they make approaching with shorthop aerial against zard pretty risky since if I'm dashing back I can pivot jab or ftilt through his moves on reaction. Zards problem in the neutral game is that he really doesn't seem to have any safe threats that don't yield stage, and thus it can be hard to keep fox out.

20XX Fox v. Zard: They both Dashdance until the last 30 seconds at which point Fox tries to win with laser damage.

 

[JOE!]

yeah, I don't get why people say fox is an -awful- MU. I've had more troubles with Falcon and Olimar.

 

[TheTTimeLives]

Zard is mid.

Zard's strengths are his nair, his speed, his tech chase ability and his upwards chasing ability. Nair is typically really good and makes some match-ups very hard for other characters (Marth, Puff) and can hurt really bad on hit (Fox, Falco), but a significant number of characters can punish it on block (MK, Luigi, Sonic?) Some characters also straight beat it (Ganon.) His speed is part of what makes his nair so strong, allowing him to retreat away and "reset" unfavorable situations out of a nair. But again, this isn't usable in a lot of match-ups, especially against a variety of high tier characters (MK, Falco.)

His weaknesses are obvious and sucky. Outside of nair, Zard has few "low-risk/reliable" aerials and struggles the most of all the big-body characters to get kills instead of racking up crazy damage with nair. His big body gives characters extra combo options against him and combined with his floatiness, allows him to get killed rather easily straight away. His recovery is good but very one dimensional and some characters can gimp him very hard (Peach, Pit, R.O.B.) Though I don't think it's as bad as everyone says, Zard can have trouble with projectiles, mostly because using his speed to get in makes him face forward when he needs to be backwards for the RAR Nair to be most effective.

So Pros and Cons. Also, his jab is great and his f-tilt and f-smash are highly underrated. But he gets killed very quickly when nair isn't effective and he has a 7-3 match-up (in my opinion) against Meta Knight, which is a pretty jarring claim against OP in and of itself.

 

[QuincyJones]

Zard is mid.

Zard's strengths are his nair, his speed, his tech chase ability and his upwards chasing ability. Nair is typically really good and makes some match-ups very hard for other characters (Marth, Puff) and can hurt really bad on hit (Fox, Falco), but a significant number of characters can punish it on block (MK, Luigi, Sonic?) Some characters also straight beat it (Ganon.) His speed is part of what makes his nair so strong, allowing him to retreat away and "reset" unfavorable situations out of a nair. But again, this isn't usable in a lot of match-ups, especially against a variety of high tier characters (MK, Falco.)

His weaknesses are obvious and sucky. Outside of nair, Zard has few "low-risk/reliable" aerials and struggles the most of all the big-body characters to get kills instead of racking up crazy damage with nair. His big body gives characters extra combo options against him and combined with his floatiness, allows him to get killed rather easily straight away. His recovery is good but very one dimensional and some characters can gimp him very hard (Peach, Pit, R.O.B.) Though I don't think it's as bad as everyone says, Zard can have trouble with projectiles, mostly because using his speed to get in makes him face forward when he needs to be backwards for the RAR Nair to be most effective.

So Pros and Cons. Also, his jab is great and his f-tilt and f-smash are highly underrated. But he gets killed very quickly when nair isn't effective and he has a 7-3 match-up (in my opinion) against Meta Knight, which is a pretty jarring claim against OP in and of itself.

Actually pretty much any character can punish nair if they can predict you're going to do it(I presume you're talking about RAR nair). Like Link's up-b, nair is comprised of one hitbox in total, so if they shield the initial hit they can wavedash in out of shield and punish with literally whatever they want. Additionally if they bait it out and simply step out of the way of the hitbox, they can shorthop over the tail swing around and punish with good reactions. Even if you recognize this and fastfall the nair early, the best you can do is shield or pivot jab/grab which many times just won't come out fast enough.

 

[menotyou135]

If he play fox and says Charizard is OP, then he really doesn't understand balance. It's called, you are better than him and he is frustrated at that.

EDIT:
Tell him to spam lazers more. I could maybe understand if he played a character without projectiles, but he is playing what I would consider to be a soft counter to zard. His projectiles wreck zard's percentage, and fox has al the tools in the world to combo zard even without shine.

 

[Taytertot]

Late. My friend plays as Fox.

He plays like he doesnt have reflector unless you're link.

Id like to point out that if he isnt using shine at all in his fox game there is probably something wrong. If you look at every top level fox in melee and PM they all use shine a lot for pressure as well as other things. Maybe the issue your friend is having isnt that Zard is OP but that he doesnt play his character to his fullest. I am certainly not the one to ask in regards to how fox should be played so he should check out the fox boards for that but shine should be a larger part of his pressure game, which may show him that he can open up Zard more often then he thinks.

 

[Blank Mauser]

A lot of people don't really exploit Zard's weaknesses and give his aerials too much respect. Even the best of players will sometimes forget to DI his back throw and just die for it.

I wish more people could learn to fight against Charizard so both Zard players can become more solid, and people playing against Zard can understand just how difficult he is to play at a high level. Sad because I really think a good Zard is beautiful to watch but many don't see it the same. I try to teach every player I go against how to beat Zard and a lot of people refuse to listen when I tell them a move is "unsafe."

 

[Heroofhatz]

A lot of people don't really exploit Zard's weaknesses and give his aerials too much respect. Even the best of players will sometimes forget to DI his back throw and just die for it.

I wish more people could learn to fight against Charizard so both Zard players can become more solid, and people playing against Zard can understand just how difficult he is to play at a high level. Sad because I really think a good Zard is beautiful to watch but many don't see it the same. I try to teach every player I go against how to beat Zard and a lot of people refuse to listen when I tell them a move is "unsafe."

Truth, but johns are easier.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

A lot of people don't really exploit Zard's weaknesses and give his aerials too much respect. Even the best of players will sometimes forget to DI his back throw and just die for it.

I wish more people could learn to fight against Charizard so both Zard players can become more solid, and people playing against Zard can understand just how difficult he is to play at a high level. Sad because I really think a good Zard is beautiful to watch but many don't see it the same. I try to teach every player I go against how to beat Zard and a lot of people refuse to listen when I tell them a move is "unsafe."

Hey I perfectly understand how much of a meatbag Zard is

Fighting him is very fun for a lot of reasons, even when I die it's like "Whoa that was cool"

 

[JOE!]

I like when people tell me my Nair is free

 

[Szion]

Ah...this thread is good

 

[TremorTrem]

I for one wouldn't say Charizard is OP but he is a pretty great character. His biggest weaknesses being his inability to deal with projectiles, his huge size and slow air mobility. I don't think he's completely a glass cannon but a lot of his matches can go severely on one side's favour. He has really nice tools though.

 

[JakeRunner]

When trying to deal with projectiles just jump over them. You wouldn't think it would be that easy but it really is. Now if you're on a stage with no to little platforms you might have to short hop fast fall waveland back (or forward to punish), but really jumping over them is super easy when theres a platform overhead to land on. Not to mention most projectiles can just be jab clanked anyways, or dash attack, or f-tilt, or flamethrower.

Projectiles are where it gets the most stage dependent basically. But there's usually a relatively safe option to counter them.

(Theres also the super secret technique known as "shielding")

 

[TremorTrem]

Oh, I shield whenever appropriate, maybe a lil more, but friend has a monster Peach, and turnips **** me pretty hard in that match up. Off stage as pressure, and if on stage, turnip on shield while she's floating is just bad.

 

[Heroofhatz]

Oh, I shield whenever appropriate, maybe a lil more, but friend has a monster Peach, and turnips **** me pretty hard in that match up. Off stage as pressure, and if on stage, turnip on shield while she's floating is just bad.

Learn to aerial glide toss them back at her, or just Nair them away. Zard can deal with projectiles quite effectively despite them being his main weakness.

 

[Phoca017]

Everyone who plays against charizard in the first time say me the same. I think charizard is good, but is just an middle tier.

 

[The Bear]

He goes on about his "high priority" and rediculous vertical catching ability.

He won't listen to me, but he will listen to a large amount of people saying similiar things.

I don't believe charizard is remotely OP, (from what i understood he was near bottom tier when he came out..)
Is there anyone thatcan prove either him or me wrong?

Hi. ^.^ First of all, your friend is wrong. However, he is right about his attributes, for the most part. Most of his attacks come out very fast from certain angles, but this doesn't make him even close to broken, op, level 3 cheezy, or anything along that line, due to his suspectability to comboes and pressure. I hope this helps!

 

[Szion]

level 3 cheezy
lol can i get a chart on that?