Snake's Virtual Reality Training Center

PapaJ

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#1
Hey Snake Players, and people interested in playing Snake. I went through a bit of footage trying to find out some of Snake's frame data, Im kinda bad as finding actual frame data, since all the videos are phone videos basically. So for right now I'm trying to find Snake's Damage values.

Thanks to erico9001 for having a good table setup in the Shulk forums.

If anyone has any questions, or has any corrections please let me know.

Some things to note:
All videos should be in the 1 V 1 Format since damage does change when there are more than 2 fighters.
There is probably gonna be some variance in damage due to freshness/staleness/Sweet and sourspots. Try to use moves that were either Fresh or only used once in the Queue. (Assume 10 moves like Smash 4 for right now)
Info on stale move negation
Multihit moves are hard to track since you can only glimpse the enemies percent for a brief second before the next move comes out. So these may be off

Notable changes:
1. Snake seems to get a little hop after doing Dair.
2. Snake's C4 has a red light on it. Making it easier to see
3. Snake can place C4 on an enemy even if they're in shield
4. Snake can still tech chase. It's arguably buffed since you can now drag downed enemies by simply walking forward
5. Snake can seemingly combo Dthrow -> utilt. Im not sure if it's because the enemy just didnt move, or if it's a genuine combo. It is

**Note: multihit notes will be denoted with parenthesis for each individual hit and than the total. So (3)(4)(5)(6): Total: 18
**Note: (?) denotes when the info is uncertain. In the case of frame data its not knowing when the FAF is of jabs and such, and for damage it's because its hard to read the changes.
**Note: ~ denotes an approximation

Kurogane Hammer has finalized the data. Ill be moving it over to here to keep it consolidated but here is the link. God bless this man for his work.


Ground Moves
Move Hitbox Start Hitbox Duration FAF Damage
Jab 1 3 2 16 2.3
Jab 2 4 2 25 3.0
Jab 3 8 2 47 6.2
U-Tilt 6 7 38 15.2
D-Tilt 6 2 31 12.6
F-Tilt 1 4 1 34 3.8
F-Tilt 2 8 1 39 10.9
U-Smash (Mortar: Placement) 11 2 51 4.2
U-Smash (Mortar: projectile) 36 till landing 51 14.7
F-Smash 41 2 74 23.1
D-Smash 1 8 2 45 10
D-Smash 2 20 2 45
Dash Attack 5 7 56 11.5


Specials
Move Hitbox Start Hitbox Duration FAF Damage
Nikita Missile 41 35 after ending 8/16
Cipher 7 87
C4 Placement (ground) 9 NA 25 N/A
C4 Placement (air) N/A
C4 activation 25 2 33 20.8
Grenade 1 150 22 10


Aerials
Move Hitbox Start Hitbox Duration FAF Damage Landing Lag
NAir (10)(18)(26)(36) (2)(2)(2)(2) 60 (2.8)()()(10.8) 16
FAir 23 3 70 14.7 20
BAir 7 19 48 14.6 19-20
UAir 10 13 60 10.5(Sour) 13(Sweet) 14.6 (Fresh?) 15
DAir (3)(10)(17)(25) (2)(2)(2)(2) 60 (3.1)(5.8)()(10.5): 21 (All hits) 20


Grabs

Move Hitbox Start Hitbox Duration FAF Damage
Grab 8 2 35 N/A
Dash Grab 11 2 43 N/A
Pivot grab 9 2 38 N/A
U-throw 14.7
F-throw 9.5
D-throw 6.2
B-throw 9.5
Pummel 1.4


Attacks on Shield

Move Frame Advantage (in frames)
Jab 1 -9
Jab 2 -16
Jab 3 -21
Ftilt 1 -22
FTilt 2 -22
Utilt -18
Dtilt -25
Fair -27
Bair -23
Bair (Fast Fall) -22
Uair -32
Dair (All) -39
Dair (all. Fastfall) - 33
Nair 1-3 -6 frames (for any of the three)
Nair 4 -13
Dsmash 1 -28
Dsmash 2 -14
Fsmash -18
Usmash Placement 1 -35
Usmash Mortar +20 (Shieldstun is 20 frames)
Nikita -23
Nikita (Release) +11 (This is if it hits enemy shield and snake can move)
C4 +18
Grenade Explosion +12



Notes: I tested this by counting the number of frames after shield disappeared.
For Out of shield punishes add 2 frames since jumpsquat is 3 and I already took that into account
For Shield drop punishes add 10 frames since shield drop is 11 frames and I already took that into account

Example: To punish Snakes Jab (-9) with an OoS aerial the enemy has to hit us with a frame 5 aerial.
9 (Enemy Advantage) - 2(remaining jumpsquat frames) = 6. If they hit us with a frame 6 move we can be in shield.

Example: To punish Snakes Jab 2 (-16) with a shield drop attack the enemy needs to hit us with a frame 6 move.
16( Enemy advantage) - 9 (The enemies remaining frames of inaction) = 7.
Meta-Game


Grenades

Grenades are gonna be useful for us. They detonate on enemy attacks, we can shield drop them, soft toss them right in front of us, toss them harder,etc. There are also some other tricks we can do.


Grenade Rushdown: What we do with this is get a grenade out and we have to either shield drop it, or soft toss it. After that we can pick it up and depending on how you launched the grenade we can re-grab it and run to the enemy, or perform an aerial. At that point we can shield right before the explosion and possibly hit the opponent. At mid percents this can lead into Aerials or a c4 stick.
  • If you shield drop the nade and wait for the nade to bounce once you should be able to dash 5 times. After the 5th one you should shield and let go and most of the time you should also get a parry. Which would prevent shield damage and allow for the same follow ups/
  • If you do the soft toss you can use nair, dair or fair to approach the enemy. Now this tricky because we dont really want to hit the enemy since the extra hitstun would make the grenade go off. This honestly seems better as a bait than anything else.
B-Reverse: B-Reversing Snake's Grenades allows snake to shift his momentum in the direction he was going, and apply that to the opposite. This video is a great example of why we would want to use it. The video is also a great showcase of using snake in online matches. Furthermore, using this in allows us to *Potentially* combo-break an enemy's attack as it any hitboxes that hit the grenade will cause an auto-detonate. The 2.5 seconds also is more than enough time for us to land and shield the explosion if needed.

Z-Nading - This guide goes into detail on what Z-Nading is, and it's applications. Credit to Jon in the Snake discord for posting this. Essentially this gives snake more options to place/grab grenades as well as different cooking methods. This will make it hard to for the enemy to realize when the grenade is going off, and allow us to create openings on their attacks, shields, and movement.

As you can see grenades are very vital for snakes gameplay so it's important you get the basics of it going, otherwise matches will becomes harder and rushdown character will give you an issue.

Nikita

Nikita's speed and power have been buffed since brawl. This is excellent for us since it can kill Mario at 100% near the ledge of FD, and the killing power only gets better the further offstage they are.

The trick to Nikita is that the missile has to be live for 30 frames for it to do 16 damage, and the higher KB. Offstage this isn't a problem, and onstage all we need to do is just slow it down by manipulating it.

Honestly the best time to use Nikita is if the enemy is offstage or if you have significant stage control and can react to something incoming.

Keep in mind that while Nikita can eat projectiles it will be deflected and have to be re-guided to the enemy. Same things for for physical attacks like jabs, tilts and smashes. It also seems when it does clank with hitboxes it can delay/prevent explosions on a hurtbox

Nikita drop: When we shield with Nikita out the missile will launch itself a bit forward and drop down. This drops the damage to 8 no matter how long the projectile was live. I can see using this as another form of trap near the ledge by launching it high up, dropping it and using mortars and c4 to lock the enemy down. Outside of that we can attempt to bait the enemy by launching Nikita and canceling it ASAP when they're off ledge since they might try and get up immediately to handle the attack.

Nikita Edgeguard: Similar to what I said above we can rotate nikita in a circle. This keeps the projectile in one spot. By doing this near the ledge we can cause enemies to hit the Nikita and make it troublesome for them to recover low. Characters that have a hitbox on their recovery, like Krool, have to be hit from the side or the bottom for them to be hit. Overall a good method of learning how the player reacts to edge guarding attempts that hit low.

C4

C4 Is snake's remote controlled explosive. The C4 can be placed when snake is on the ground or in the air. Typically it's safer in the air, and can cause the opponent to be be more wary if they're trying to juggle snake from the ground. C4 will detonate in 1600 frames, or 26 seconds.

C4 can be placed on the enemy this will cause it stick to them. They can transfer it to us by touching their hurtbox with ours, and we can transfer it back. The cooldown on a switch is 3 seconds. When Stickied the C4 will come off after 12 seconds, and sometimes by a strong attack.

Due to the Airdodge changes, if we happen to have a C4 on the enemy and can force an airdodge we can quickly press down b to punish. No matter where they airdodge.

C4 Bait: in Jtail's video you can see the C4 here. He Short hops to place C4, than double jumps away and detonates. Due to snakes laggy aerials and size some enemies will want to try and go in and punish snake if he jumps. By doing this you can avoid most attacks and punish. This move can be used somewhat liberally just watch out for faster characters that can avoid and punish.

C4 Combo: Because of hitstun we can actually combo enemies until c4 without relying on sticky C4. Our main moves for this type of combo are
  • Uthrow (if the C4 is on platform above us)
  • Utilt (If the C4 is on a platform above us)
  • Dthrow (on a small platform)
  • Bthrow (our best move for this)
As an aside we can combo mario into dthrow on one side of Battlefield if we have C4 on the other side, also having the C4 placed on the opposite side platform can make this combo work until 120. Making this a very good move if we can take advantage of an enemy's position. However, this isn't the most viable thing to pull off since we need to have C4 on stage, which we should always strive to do, and taking into account an enemy's weight, Percentage, and DI. if you do pull it off it can turn the above moves into kill combos, or tack on an extra 20% to those moves.

C4 Stick: As the name implies this is where we stick our C4 on the enemy. The best time to do this is when the enemy is shield since C4 stick ignores shields. Enemies will typically shield when they are on a platform and are afraid of snakes Uair or utilt. Landing this should be a primary goal when you get an enemy on a platform since it will bypass shield, and can lead to kill combos.

Rising/Falling C4: This is typically an out of shield option when we jump out of shield we can negate the shield drop frames, which allows us to act faster. Nor for larger characters, such as Bowser, we can stick C4 as we jump out of shield, and for smaller characters we can stick c4 as we hit the floor. This is just another option to get C4 on the enemy and will take some time to get used to, and when to use it.

C4 Recovery: This is simple. When snake loses his recovery, either it being destroyed or due to it running out. Simply release C4 and detonate it ASAP. You will hit yourself for 20 damage, launch yourself up, and gain another recovery. This is vital to learn especially with the fact Snake's recovery can be destroyed. It's not an entire loss since we also gain some rage, and Snake is decently heavy.

As you can see C4 is arguably just as important as Snake's grenades and makes his stage control that much better. It also gives him some pretty strong combos, and a chance to come back to the stage. Practice using C4 as much as you can and detonating it if you want to replace it, such as the ledge if you knocked the enemy offstage.

Cypher

Cypher is Snake's recovery it has a hurtbox that can absorb up 15%-20% of damage at which point it will explode and Snake will start tumbling down. It has some benefits as it gives snake some very light armor, had a decent effective range, can act as projectile when let go. However, because it leaves snake's sides exposed as well as underneath him it can make recovery very difficult against enemies with strong aerials. This is why you want to try and recovery high and rely on C4 and B-reverse grenades to get you to safety. Outside of there isn't really any strategies to cypher.

Neutral Air

Neutral Air gets a spot due to its unique properties. First and foremost it's pretty good to throw out if you suspect the enemy is going to recover high offledge or approach you with an aerial. It does a solid amount of damage and knockback if all hits connect, and, as long as you have enough airtime, all 4 hit will reliably connect. However there is anought useful trait of N-air. As I mentioned above Nair has 4 hits, with the last hit being the strongest, but Nair's first 3 hits all seem to have set knockback which can reliably combo into Utilt, C4 Stick, or a throw. However the timing must be on point otherwise it wont be a true combo. The rule is the lower the hit, the more time you have to combo.

Utilt Combo: As I mentioned if you land any of the first three hits of N-air on an enemy. and the timing is right, we can land a Utilt. This is important because Utilt is a move that can kill reliably at 110% or so so instead of fishing for Utilts we can attempt to combo into our kill move.

Throw Combo/Chain grab: We can also land a grab on an enemy we have hit Nair 1-3 on. Although none of Snake's throws by themself are anything to write home about there is Dthrow. This forces the enemy to either roll left, roll right, or get up neutrally or attack. Now while Dthrow by itself has some benefits, such as reading the roll into utilt or another move we can also Dthrow > read the roll > Nair 1 or 2 or 3 > Dthrow. This essentially gives Snake his chain grab capability from Brawl back. Although it is harder to pull it off since we need to commit to the Nair if we mess up, which is around 16 frames. Still if you manage to get this a few times the damage can rack up, and is certainly something to try and get on the enemy when you can.

C4 Stick: Finally we have sticking C4 on an enemy. This is pretty straightforward. After landing one of the first three Nairs you will want to hit the C4 button to try and stick the enemy. After that use the C4 to your advantage either to extend a combo or punish.

Strengths
Control

Snake has great control due to his grenades, Mortar, C4, and Dtilt and Utilt Spacing. This forces faster enemies to make sure they can advance, or even attack Snake, and bigger enemies to be more susceptible to traps due to their hurtbox size.

General Rule of thumb is that you always have something on the floor. Either a grenade, C4, Mortar anything that makes the enemy think twice about directly attacking Snake, and at the same time you want to analyze how the enemy is reacting to your projectiles and figure out counter plays to how they are fighting.

KO Power

Snakes go to kill moves are Nikita, Utilt, Dsmash, Bair, C4, Usmash. All have their own uses. because Snake's fastest kill move is Utilt, and it has a disjointed hitbox and decent range, you want to try and land this whenever you can. Avoid staling this move towards the end of the stock to get as much of an early kill as possible.

While Fsmash is very strong the startup is too much, and the range is pathetic. If you can land this move with a shield break or hard read it could be worth it since it does kill ridiculously early. But overall this is a move that should seldom be used.

Crouching

Snake Crouch is pretty damn good. It can low profile moves like Megaman's Jab, aerials, and other attacks. On top of that we can low profile a move and counter with any of our attacks such as Dtilt, Utilt, Ftilt, Aerials, etc. We also gain KB resistance if we are hit during crouch which can extend our stock even more. It will take sometime to get used to try and crouch/crawl over some attacks but it is something that is very useful Since Snake goes very low to the ground making some aerials, like Marth Nair to miss.

Weaknesses
Aerial Game

Although Snake does have a good aerials part of the issue is none of them are disjointed are have any somer of invulnerability on his feet/legs. This means more often than not you're gonna trade or lose due to the startup of some of his moves. Avoid trying to clash in the air unless you can get an out of shield Dair, RAR Bair, or you're sharking a platform with Uair.

This also extends to his jumps. Snake cannot land on the first platform on Battlefield unless he uses Dair, Bair or an airdodge, and due to his low air speed it makes fading back with neutrals tough, and given his endlag on aerials you shouldn't be throwing them out unless you see a good reason to, such as contesting/trading.

FInally his recovery is below average if only due to how fragile cypher is, and how little armor snake gets. While it isn't fatal to lose cypher, due to the C4 trick, it does mean we have to be very cautious if we go over the ledge.

Size

Snake is very tall, and somewhat large. This means that while he gets decent range on some of his attacks, it will make it easier for enemies to hit snake and get combos off him. We do have a work around with his grenades since any attacks that hit that will set them off, which will typically trap the enemy in the explosion but be prepared to be comboed and having a rough time with some faster/more acrobatic characters.

Set-up

Even though Snake's main appeal and goal is setting up a danger zone this can also be considered a weakness. Without his grenades, C4, Mortar, Nikita it can be trivial to approach and overwhelm Snake. So faster characters, or characters with reflect, can trivialize alot of Snake's defenses. The only work around is stepping up your approach and being more aggressive with physical attacks and putting out physical hitboxes to try and deter approaches. Once they're offstage you can go back to applying pressure with explosives but in neutral it can be a pain to get it started up.

Notable Videos
This Section will have videos of High level tournament snake play so you can familiarize yourself with how Snake should be played as well as something to learn on.

SL Ultimate #1 - Ally (Snake) vs Holy (ROB) - Winners Finals
SL Ultimate #1 - Smokk (Ganon) vs Ally (Snake) - Grand Finals
ESAM vs MVD | Singles - Grand Finals | Don't Park On The Grass 2018 | Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

ESAM vs MVD | Singles - From Winners | Don't Park On The Grass 2018 | Super Smash Bros. Ultimate









Credits:
Papaj
Ffamran
kurogane hammer
The Snake Discord
Credit to Jon in the Snake discord for posting the Z-nade guide. Twitter: https://twitter.com/LITERALLYPATHET
Jtails

Side Note: If this formatting is weird or wonk please let me know. IF there's any suggestions for cleaning it up I'll gladly take it.
 
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Ffamran

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#2
YouTube has a frame-by-frame viewer. Use , to move back a frame and . to move forward one. They're also the same keys for < and > on most keyboards. The only issue is that some computers might lag when doing this. Note: this is based on a demo build of Smash Ultimate, so it is subject to change in addition to human error.

From Snake's section in Smash Ultimate Direct: jab 1 startup, dash attack startup, Side Smash startup, Ftilt 1 startup, and C4 ground placement and recovery, and C4 detonation and recovery.

Jab 1 is frame 3. The starting frame is when Snake suddenly shifts from his idle stance to having his left fist raised. From there, Wendy Koopa gets hit on frame 3. Its recovery, jab 2, and jab 3 I'm going to leave out because of the hit stun. I'm not sure how you would count it afterwards.

Dash attack hits Mega Man on frame 10. The starting frame is when Snake crouches down from his run. From there, Mega Man gets hit on frame 10, but its hitbox could have been active before it. Frame 4-5 might be the earliest since at that point, Snake's propelling himself forward.

Side Smash is frame 42 on the first instance it was used. Snake turns around to do it, so it might be a frame or so faster. The starting frame is when Snake suddenly rises from his crawl. From there, Little Mac gets hit on frame 42. The second instance it was used was during Shadow Moses Island and Snake's Final Smash showing, but he was in the middle of hitting with it.

Ftilt 1 is frame 4. The starting frame is when Snake suddenly reels back from his idle stance and preparing a knee with his right leg. From there, Shulk gets hit on frame 4. Like jab, I'm going to leave out Ftilt 2 and its recovery because of the hit stun.

Snake places C4 on the ground on frame 22. The starting frame is Snake's sudden shift from Ftilt 2's ending animation to Snake pulling out C4 from his inventory. From there, C4 is placed on frame 22 as indicated by the green and red sparkle. The green sparkle appears on frame 20. For recovery, Snake stands around for a few frames before dodging Pac-Man. I'm not exactly sure what frame, but on frame 50, it seems like Snake's completely in idle. He isn't rising up anymore and appears to be facing as forward as possible. Regardless, C4 on the ground would be around 28 recovery frames then. Give or take a few frames.

Snake detonates C4 on frame 20 with the explosion being on frame 25 to 26. The starting frame is when Snake suddenly shifts from the end of his forward roll animation to pulling out his remote. Frame 25 is when the initial explosion effect appears, but frame 26 is when Pac-Man gets hit which is indicated by Pac-Man's surprised face. Snake himself presses the button on frame 20 which is indicated by a sparkle on his remote. For recovery, Snake enters into idle on frame 49, the frame where the remote disappears and which I would assume he'd be able to move if not at least on frame 50. If we go off of when Snake presses the button, then it would be 29 recovery frames, but if we go with when Pac-Man gets hit and assume that frame 25 isn't when the hitbox appears, then it's 23. I think it's the former since he activated it and there's just simply a delay when it explodes regardless if he gets hit before the explosion occurs.

From Snake's introductory video: dash attack's total frames, C4 placement on person and recovery, standing grab startup estimate, and Down Smash.

Dash attack's total frames is 55 frames. The starting frame is when Snake shifts from his run to a crouch and the ending point is the frame before Snake begins to crawl forward, indicated by Snake's arms moving forward and legs shifting on frame 56. Without knowing how long the hitboxes are active and when exactly his startup is, recovery frames can't be obtained.

Snake places C4 on Bowser Jr. on frame 9. The starting frame is when Snake suddenly shifts from crouching to pulling out C4 from his inventory. Frame 9 is when the C4 in Snake's hand disappears and appears on Bower Jr.'s head. For recovery, Snake appears to be at idle on frame 47, but he begins to move, by turning around, on frame 51. So, 38 to 42 recovery frames.

C4 detonation is the same here, except for the confirmation of the first active hitbox. Snake presses the button on frame 20 when the remote sparkles and the explosion and when Bowser Jr. gets hit occurs on frame 25. Frame 49 is still when the remote disappears from Snake's hand. So, if recovery is based on when he presses the button, then it's 29 recovery frames, but if it's based on the explosion, then it's 24.

Standing grab will be off from this video as the clip cuts to Snake being in the middle of its startup. From the clip cut to Little Mac being grabbed is 8 frames. If the clip cut was the start of Snake's st. grab animation, then he has an 8 frame st. grab. If it's not, then I don't know. Maybe it's frame 9 or 10.

Down Smash's first hit is frame 10. The starting frame is when Snake suddenly shifts from his D-throw's ending animation to raising his left leg for a kick. From there, Little Mac gets hit on frame 10. As with jab 1 and Ftilt 1, I don't know how to factor in hitstun to get its second hit and recovery.

That's it for now. The other videos can provide information for his other moves.

Quick edit: Everyone's jump seems to be frame 4. It was confirmed with Falco, Marth, and Zelda and I think Shulk since their boards are doing frame data collections.

Edit: Everyone's jump is frame 3. See below: https://smashboards.com/threads/snakes-virtual-reality-training-center.455533/#post-22137074.
 
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PapaJ

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#3
Thanks man I hardly ever do this so that frame by frame really helps. Ill add what you said to the list later and try and find other values. (Gotta love phone footage)

Edit: I took a stage at guessing fab 2 and 3. It seems like it's close to being right. Ill go through the videos I have sourced to find any more info
 
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Ffamran

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#4
Thanks man I hardly ever do this so that frame by frame really helps. Ill add what you said to the list later and try and find other values. (Gotta love phone footage)
Frame-by-frame is very tedious, especially if you're doing it off of off-screen gameplay, but that's all we have at the moment and sometimes, you get really curious or want to know something.

Anyway, I didn't check before doing this, but Smash and other games for that matter, do carry over frame data from previous games. Usually for moves that are simple and don't really need much changing, it's fine, but for some what I would call problematic characters like Falco and Zelda, it can lead to things being carried over when they shouldn't be like Falco's sour-spot, 80 degree hitboxes on his Down Smash existed since Melee and until Ultimate, Zelda's jab was frame 11. It's 4 now and I digress.

The point is that you can look back to Snake's frame data in Brawl and compare and have an idea of how he might work in Ultimate, but with consideration to his and universal changes. For example, his new Down Smash, presumably jumps being standardized to 4 frames, and people looking like they move faster than in previous games. This is Brawl Snake's frame data thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/148-41-solid-snakes-hitbox-and-frame-data.258332/.

I checked and showed he still has his frame 3 jab 1, Ftilt 1 is still frame 4, and standing grab is probably frame 8 like in Brawl. Dash attack is possibly the same in Brawl and the first hitbox is frame 5 since that was around when Snake was shooting forward which would probably hurt someone and Side Smash might be frame 41, so I might be off one or it is frame 42 which isn't that big of a deal.
 
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PapaJ

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#5
Awesome, Ill look at both and compare them and see if theres any huge differences.
 

Ffamran

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#6
Awesome, Ill look at both and compare them and see if theres any huge differences.
I'm guessing you're in the middle of editing, but dash attack's startup is not frame 55. That it's total frames. Add 1 frame to get its FAF, 56 frames. The startup is probably around 5 frames and it lasts at least until frame 10, when Mega Man got hit in the Smash Ultimate Direct.

For now, comparison helps to see if you're on the mark. So, if you were looking at Side Smash's startup and somehow how got frame 30 instead of around 41 frames and it looking slower than that. Later, when the game's out, it can be used to see what exactly changed in his appearances. Do take into consideration of the games being different though like Brawl's damage and knockback data could be drastically different than in Ultimate because of how it works.
 

PapaJ

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#7
Yeah BBC code is weird to me. when I was change C4 data it was coming out all kinds of weird.
 

PapaJ

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#11
Is his down smash still a motion sensor? Also c4 was passed in brawl.
Yeah but I think with the small steps in S4 to make it more competitive, than brawl, and SSBU taking that a bit further I think "random" elements like that are gonna get dropped. Although I looked at all the mutifights that I could for SSSBU but I didn't see that happen, mostly because Snakes didnt land the C4 on people.

Also no Down Smash is now a double sided kick. So no more mines
 
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#12
Ok well I see the use in kick especially with rolls getting nerfs. They seem to want more aggressive gameplay, so I suppose they don't want snake to camp behind a field of explosives.

Yeah c4 just sticking to that one person would make it simplify, wouldn't mind that. But blowing yourself up was funny.
 

PapaJ

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#13
Ok well I see the use in kick especially with rolls getting nerfs. They seem to want more aggressive gameplay, so I suppose they don't want snake to camp behind a field of explosives.

Yeah c4 just sticking to that one person would make it simplify, wouldn't mind that. But blowing yourself up was funny.
It also seems that after dthrow we can true combo into moves Utilt and Dsmash. So this can help us if this is confirmed to be true
 
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#14
Oh wow. I have seen someone doing a multi up tilt combo, so that could be a nice early damage combo.

Maybe I just got used to seeing faster characters like shiek and zzs, but does anyone else find snake looking slower than everyone else and move more sluggishly? I don't know his movement just didn't seem to flow as well as other characters.
 

Ffamran

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#15
Quick edit: Everyone's jump seems to be frame 4. It was confirmed with Falco, Marth, and Zelda and I think Shulk since their boards are doing frame data collections.
Disregard this. All jumps as of the E3 demo are frame 3. I was wondering if I made a mistake in considering the first airborne frame as part of the jump startup and according to how people have done frame data for the previous Smash games, KoF XIII and KoF XIV, Street Fighter V, etc., and I did. The first airborne frame isn't considered; only the jumpsquat, pre-jump, or jump animation frames are, so Snake's jump, like everyone's jumps, is frame 3.
 
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#16
I have something minor I wanna add, along with some speculation.

We see in Snake's fighter video (or the E3 direct, I can't remember) that he has a new Dsmash similar to Zelda's, meaning his booby trapping abilities are nerfed without the landmines.

My speculation is that they will return as Snake's custom Down B. The landmines, while they can't stick to walls or objects, will detonate automatically on the nearest fighter, and will pack more punch.

Now I have proof that Custom Specials will return in Smash Ultimate. Palutena's set of Specials were streamlined to combine her Reflect with her Counter, but the moves I saw from the Miis would suggest that streamlining their Specials would be too awkward. We see the Brawler's Feint Jump in action, but in a photo, we see him using Head-On Assault; both Specials are his Down B. In the E3 presentation, we see the Swordfighter use both Blade Counter and Power Thrust -- both of which are Down B moves. And with the Gunner, we see her use Laser Blaze in the roster reveal, but later in the Direct, we see her use Charge Blast -- both are her Neutral B moves.


With all three examples that I just gave, it would be incredibly awkward to map these "alternate" Specials different to how they were in Smash 4, and to outright replace the Specials that are being mapped over.
 
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#17
It is possible that miis were also streamlined to have only 4 specials so they could be used online because I don't think they wanted people to guess what the opponenet had.
 
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#18
It is possible that miis were also streamlined to have only 4 specials so they could be used online because I don't think they wanted people to guess what the opponenet had.
That's what I'm trying to argue -- remapping Mii's Specials to include other customs would be too awkward a feel -- unlike Palutena.
 
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#19
I don't like the change myself as I found customization to be an interesting way to play the moveset you have always been playing for years especially with the older characters.
 

PapaJ

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#20
Hey Guys sorry for being MIA for a long time. Some stuff came up irl. But im back so im gonna be scrubbing through the new stuff and see if theres more changes.

If anyone has some vids of snake that I might be missing just lmk
 
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#21
Hoi! A user here who has access to the game gathered some data from trainning mode. Here's what we got for Snake so far:

:ultsnake: Snake
(landing lag)
Nair: 16 frames
Fair: 19 frames
Bair: 19 frames
Uair: 15 frames
Dair: 20 frames
Fullhop height: 2 stage units (Snake can't even fullhop to the first set of battlefield platforms without using bair or dair)
Shorthop height: 1.2 stage units
Interesting Notes: Snake's sticky does still trade off when you run into the enemy or throw them. Snakes downair has this weird popup at the end, in conjunction with your double jump you can actually get a bit more height or distance during a recovery. Snake can still infinitely recover by dropping c4 beneath him over and over after using the cypher. Snake can airdodge after using the cypher. First hit nair can combo into jab or grab if you're precise. If you hit the first 2 hits of dair you can combo into jab or grab as well. Nair 1-4 has fixed knockback and can drag the opponent. Uptilt still does a ton of damage and has some pretty big range. Downthrow still works as a tech chase tool.

If you have specific requests for the user here's the thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/lan...rame-data-thread-training-mode-tested.464174/
 
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-Ran

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#23
Yes, that's a good deal of aerial lag. We will have to see how high we have to do jump to further reduce the lag, due the nature of the long duration moves that Snake has. There's also possibilities of being safer due to throwing out the move earlier/immediately out of the jump. The bigger new from that is the ability to do first hit of Nair to second hit of dair to get a jab/grab. Snake never had an amazing aerial game in Brawl; it was just that he could throw out his hitboxes early to get them to finish before touching the ground.
 
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zeldasmash

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#24
Hoi! A user here who has access to the game gathered some data from trainning mode. Here's what we got for Snake so far:

:ultsnake: Snake
(landing lag)
Nair: 16 frames
Fair: 19 frames
Bair: 19 frames
Uair: 15 frames
Dair: 20 frames
Fullhop height: 2 stage units (Snake can't even fullhop to the first set of battlefield platforms without using bair or dair)
Shorthop height: 1.2 stage units
Interesting Notes: Snake's sticky does still trade off when you run into the enemy or throw them. Snakes downair has this weird popup at the end, in conjunction with your double jump you can actually get a bit more height or distance during a recovery. Snake can still infinitely recover by dropping c4 beneath him over and over after using the cypher. Snake can airdodge after using the cypher. First hit nair can combo into jab or grab if you're precise. If you hit the first 2 hits of dair you can combo into jab or grab as well. Nair 1-4 has fixed knockback and can drag the opponent. Uptilt still does a ton of damage and has some pretty big range. Downthrow still works as a tech chase tool.

If you have specific requests for the user here's the thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/lan...rame-data-thread-training-mode-tested.464174/
Woah...that's quite a bit of lag. It ain't Brawl bad but still quite a bit compared to most. Also, dair now halts aerial momentum apparently, similar to how Lucario's does. Is that true?
 
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#25
Woah...that's quite a bit of lag. It ain't Brawl bad but still quite a bit compared to most. Also, dair now halts aerial momentum apparently, similar to how Lucario's does. Is that true?
You're referring to this part?: ''Snakes downair has this weird popup at the end, in conjunction with your double jump you can actually get a bit more height or distance during a recovery''.

I think that's true. Bakasama tested it in training mode so i'll put my trust in him until we can test it ourselves. From what i understand seems more similar to Snake's Fair as Bakasama claim that ''you can actually get a bit more height'' compare to Lucario's Dair where you just stop falling but don't gain any height. I'll see if i can find some footage just to verifiy Baka's claim.
 
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PapaJ

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#26
Hoi! A user here who has access to the game gathered some data from trainning mode. Here's what we got for Snake so far:

:ultsnake: Snake
(landing lag)
Nair: 16 frames
Fair: 19 frames
Bair: 19 frames
Uair: 15 frames
Dair: 20 frames
Fullhop height: 2 stage units (Snake can't even fullhop to the first set of battlefield platforms without using bair or dair)
Shorthop height: 1.2 stage units
Interesting Notes: Snake's sticky does still trade off when you run into the enemy or throw them. Snakes downair has this weird popup at the end, in conjunction with your double jump you can actually get a bit more height or distance during a recovery. Snake can still infinitely recover by dropping c4 beneath him over and over after using the cypher. Snake can airdodge after using the cypher. First hit nair can combo into jab or grab if you're precise. If you hit the first 2 hits of dair you can combo into jab or grab as well. Nair 1-4 has fixed knockback and can drag the opponent. Uptilt still does a ton of damage and has some pretty big range. Downthrow still works as a tech chase tool.

If you have specific requests for the user here's the thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/lan...rame-data-thread-training-mode-tested.464174/

Thanks a ton man I just got snake just now and was trying to figure out the best way to get this. Training Mode has frame advance its just a lil iffy for me
 

DavemanCozy

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#27
Regarding Snake's first full jump:
https://smashboards.com/threads/snakes-first-jump.465073/

Tl dr: there are ways to reach the BF platform without using your second jump. Full jump into Wavedash seems to be a neat option

UPDATE: ledge sliding off the platforms is just not possible in this game. The wavedash effect stops your character before they can slide off the ledge, which means you'll always suffer the landing lag from the airdodge.

The landing lag for airdodge is distance based. Yeah, so instead of trying to explain it I'm gonna post a link to the thread that explains it: https://smashboards.com/threads/spot-dodges-rolls-air-dodges-and-staling.464660/

Basically you'll suffer 18-19 frames of landing lag if you time the waveland perfectly with option 3 because Snakes first jump is so small. So I'd put it as just slightly faster than Full jump b-air.

I say slightly because I'm also taking into account the time it takes for Snake to reach the platform with full jump b-air, whereas with full jump -> waveland he travels much less distance while still suffering the same amount of landing lag. The difference is pretty small.

For applications:
I would use option 1 if you need to stick out a hitbox while getting on the platform. I would use 3 if you need to reposition yourself. 2 is less applicable because the hitbox is smaller, but maybe it has its use too.

So hey here's another post because my last one was a week ago. Another Snake thing that I just noticed about Side-B while derping around in training mode: as soon as Snake fires the missile, he is invulnerable for the first 4 frames. So you can punish him before he fires it and after he fires it if he doesn't cancel the missile, but right when he fires it you can't do squat. I didn't try the aerial version, just the grounded one.

Edit: training mode lied. No invulnerability, but it's very strange still that it thinks the move has invulnerability.

Last but not least, Snake's Dash grab:
https://twitter.com/AllyUltimate/status/1075175128663764992?s=19
 
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