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Snake's Neutral Game

WilfordBrimley

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
7
Besides the spacing of DACUS after Downsmashing and also grenade rolling and shielding the grenades should there be some more cypher game in my neutral game if i want to play better defensively instead of hurting my shield with grenades and shield grabbing
 

BND

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
174
...I'm guessing this is a question.
In any case, cypher no longer has significant potential as a neutral game tool, due to its lack of invincibility frames. It can be used to start shield pressure, but only if you have the opponent in their shields in the first place. In 3.02, run up cypher probably had some sort of merit, but in 3.5, that's no longer the case and people are probably going to mash something out on Snake's cypher startup.

Snake's neutral game now mostly consists of Roy-esque dtilts, DACUS, charged up smash for cover -> approach, and grenades (How you choose to implement this is up to you). Dashdance grabs are also technically an option, though that seems like a universal tactic.
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
I played Ginger (5th on MI Melee PR) in Snake vs. Samus last night, and we went about even overall. Now I promise this is related, because I started to really develop an idea of Snake's neutral in its most challenged form. Ginger plays a really defensive Samus (it's not his main, but it's probably 2nd or 3rd in the state at this point) with a lot of projectiles, UpB OoS and the like. So I can't really let him be far away, but I can't get too close to him either. What I could do, though, was use mines and C4 and grenades to control where he could be. When we play on PS2, I simply planted mines and C4s on the platforms so that he couldn't missile cancel on them without getting punished for it. This forces a different sort of playstyle from him where he'd try to space out tilts and the like. I'd duck under f-tilts trying to bait out down tilts or up tilts so that I could dashdance grab these and get a grab combo, usually up throw to C4 or up air or nair. Samus is super floaty so I don't need a whole lot of percent. Once he gets to the point where he doesn't try to use unsafe tilts (or realizes that downward angle f-tilt still hits Snake's crouch), I would start grenading his tilts so that he'd take on damage in that way as well. Then he has the option of either baiting my own unsafe options or being aggressive in some other sense (i.e. being close to me) where the whole cycle repeats again. Another thing he tried to do but I punished really well was to ledge camp and attempt to bait me into something, where I just planted a mine to limit his movement and then turned it into an edgeguard. This specifically lets me get a grab near the ledge, meaning I can down throw techchase Samus and cover every option just by crouching (since getup attack is too high to hit Snake's crouch).

This is how I see that Snake's tools can be used in the Neutral most effectively: you don't approach. Instead, you eliminate as many of their options as you can until the only one left is for them to approach. Samus does this exact same thing, but I think Snake is actually better at it overall due to the lack of movement investment needed to establish and maintain your stage control (mines just need to be placed once and can be moved at any time vs. missiles disappearing rapidly by comparison). This basic concept remains the same for almost the entire cast—Snake's punish game is his strongest asset whereas his approach is likely his weakest. There's no point, therefore, in trying to approach when you can just let your opponent do it, read it, and then react to it with the proper punishment. That's what DACUS is. That's what dashdance grab is. That's what dash cancel tilts are. Grenades are a way of controlling the stage. Mines are a way of controlling the stage. C4 is a way of controlling the stage. They all also happen to be threats of combos, which is why they work to control your opponent so well. Some characters are compelled to approach, like Falcon and Fox, but they never need to approach and actually perform better when they don't.

The idea here is to maximize your punishments so that you minimize the amount of times that you have to win the Neutral, because winning the Neutral means that you successfully read your opponent: you had to make a guess, and that guess had to be correct. It's the same whether you approach or not. The trick is really to just become familiar with a given character's options as well as the player's tendency to favor some options over others. At the same time, you need to understand those options and the space they cover so that you can position yourself outside that space, while also understanding your own options enough to know the balance between safety and opportunity.
 
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Narpas_sword

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Wasn't your samus opponent using Zair?

Been a while since i played that matchup, but i'm pretty sure zair clears mines. (at least, if theyre on platforms)
At the least, if you hit snake as he plants it, hes stunned on top of it and detonates it himself (either taking the hit, or shielding it)
It definitely stops nades, and iirc can bounce them back at snake.
If all else fails, dropping a downb bomb over a mine leaves enough time to jump away from the explosion, without looking back.
Zair pressure is also great at poking a snake back towards a mine he just planted.

If the samus camps right and patiently, i don't see how snake can force the approach. perhaps it's more map dependent?

anyway, i came here to learn more about snake, because i want a 2ndary that is as annoying to fight as samus =p
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
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May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
He wasn't, no. Somehow I'm hesitant to believe a lot of those points but I'll definitely try to look into them. :) Are these aspects pre- or post-3.5? I know zair got nerfed a lot from 3.02 so it may have an impact.

Hitting a good Snake while he's planting a mine is nigh impossible, btw. It's like shieldgrabbing a good Samus.
 
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Narpas_sword

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the zair nerfs made it not great as an attack, it's still perfect for projectile disruption.
And it jab resets now =p
Which is awesome for punishing a missed tech, zair, Chargeshot.

I understand a good snake wont be planting the mine when samus is able to counter it (otherwise any projectile would work)
But clearing the mines with zair and bombs is still a thing.
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
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May 2, 2014
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672
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Grand Rapids, MI
the thing is, the act of clearing the mine only means Snake will plant another. It's a very begrudging way to play the matchup, but it's effective nonetheless. Snake WILL live longer than Samus, so the war of attrition works in his favor. This tends to be true of all floaties as well. That's my main point with the example. It's a matter of knowing the characters' strengths and weaknesses and exploiting them. Snake's ability to survive is one of those strengths to hold over a character like Samus.

I do concede that Ginger plays way more Melee than he does PM and likely doesn't know a lot of the PM-specific aspects of Samus.

One thing I think would punish that kind of gimmick (if I can call it that) is that tranq likely punishes your landing lag if you do it too often. It also seems like you'd need the zair to be at full length to have enough disjoint to blow a grenade or mine without it hitting you as well, so the execution isn't even that easy. Such a telegraphed movement can also just give Snake an in via DACUS or something else.

I keep editing this post thinking about this more when I should really just test this stuff out.
 
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WilfordBrimley

Smash Rookie
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May 5, 2015
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7
ill take the info i was given from you 2 guys and throw it into my gameplay as much as i'm able too thanks for the help
 

Narpas_sword

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the thing is, the act of clearing the mine only means Snake will plant another. It's a very begrudging way to play the matchup, but it's effective nonetheless. Snake WILL live longer than Samus, so the war of attrition works in his favor. This tends to be true of all floaties as well. That's my main point with the example. It's a matter of knowing the characters' strengths and weaknesses and exploiting them. Snake's ability to survive is one of those strengths to hold over a character like Samus.

I do concede that Ginger plays way more Melee than he does PM and likely doesn't know a lot of the PM-specific aspects of Samus.

One thing I think would punish that kind of gimmick (if I can call it that) is that tranq likely punishes your landing lag if you do it too often. It also seems like you'd need the zair to be at full length to have enough disjoint to blow a grenade or mine without it hitting you as well, so the execution isn't even that easy. Such a telegraphed movement can also just give Snake an in via DACUS or something else.

I keep editing this post thinking about this more when I should really just test this stuff out.
Yea, it's a fairly interesting match.
Lots of traps for both players to get into.

Absolutely, Zair is easily punished, it's not often ill use it as an attack in neutral. unless i see the opponent doent know how to shield =p

your points are all valid though, i think it takes a lot to force samus to approach.

Will have to wait till i fight snake more often to expand on my thoughts -)
 

Jelinek

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May 8, 2015
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13
Can't samus missile Snake's mines if she angles them? I know she can zair the mines
 

Narpas_sword

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So, just fought a snake.

Zair definitely kills mines. pretty quick and easy.
However, mines seemed to kill full charge shots. so they are decent protection from that >.<

Zair protected me from nades, i just flicked one out whenever i herd the pin pull.

It really depended on stage which way it went. depending on how fast i could PMC.
 

LupinX

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
226
So, just fought a snake.

Zair definitely kills mines. pretty quick and easy.
However, mines seemed to kill full charge shots. so they are decent protection from that >.<

Zair protected me from nades, i just flicked one out whenever i herd the pin pull.

It really depended on stage which way it went. depending on how fast i could PMC.
I knew about zair beating out mines well, but i didn't know it nullifies charged shots... I may practice doing this lol.
What stages are good/bad in the snake vs samus matchup.
 

cisyphus

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The more space Samus has the worse it is for Snake. His mobility is just a tad worse than Samus's, and Samus can put out more hitboxes than Snake can, so she can theoretically camp Snake out indefinitely. I'm partial to Battlefield and Fountain, and FD actually isn't too bad as it removes missile camping to some degree and allows you to break apart the stage with mines really well. It also focuses the game on edgeguarding, and with the current tether mechanics, Samus doesn't have nearly as many good options as in Melee, whereas Snake can basically go wherever he wants with impunity: Samus has no good upward KO options. Smashville is pretty good as well, I'd imagine, but gives you the added moving platform to control the stage.
 

Narpas_sword

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The more space Samus has the worse it is for Snake. His mobility is just a tad worse than Samus's, and Samus can put out more hitboxes than Snake can, so she can theoretically camp Snake out indefinitely. I'm partial to Battlefield and Fountain, and FD actually isn't too bad as it removes missile camping to some degree and allows you to break apart the stage with mines really well. It also focuses the game on edgeguarding, and with the current tether mechanics, Samus doesn't have nearly as many good options as in Melee, whereas Snake can basically go wherever he wants with impunity: Samus has no good upward KO options. Smashville is pretty good as well, I'd imagine, but gives you the added moving platform to control the stage.
I liked BF, PS2, and DP against snake as samus.
Simply because i can fire off missiles so much quicker there.

DL64 was a nightmare. Snakes recovery is just so much better than Samus'

Though, this isnt neutral game, but ice homing missiles can completly stop snakes recovery. Can keep hitting him out of cypher and causing him to drop too lowk to get the c4 off.

Have to test the mine thing again, not sure if i fired a full charge shot or a 90%
 
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